Change the Lootsystem for landscape

[Hurin]

See and again you miss the point so I will lay it out for you. You sound like a child who is mad at some other kid because he got X in a way that you did not and you don't think it is fair. Plain and simple the entire boils down to that. Anyway you want to rationalize it as someone who is a parent this is all I can see. You are mad and what was trying to be pointed out in a joking manner you seem to miss. I don't like mulitboxers. I find them annoying and often in the way so even trying to defend their grind annoys me but as I went through page after page all I can get is the image of a couple kids mad at another because they didn't get it to. It is not integrity that you are trying to force on someone it is your way, what you want. It is not others but you.

And as for AH prices no they do not exist in a vaccum but if you do not want to pay those prices then don't pure in simple. I will not bay 35, 30, 25 or really over 20g for a key. See and since I won't pay I don't get it and that is on me.

I did not miss that point. I fully understand that I sound like a child to you. Because you don't understand my position and have an overly simplistic view of the issues being discussed, basic principles of game design, and integrity within game design. As demonstrated by that terribly crafted analogy. Fair enough. Thanks for dropping by.

Incidentally, there is zero stopping me from parking six or twelve LMs and doing this myself. Except my own and the game's integrity. So, no, I'm not "mad" that others are doing something I can't do. I lament a game that allows such blatant exploitation, and a community that makes excuses for it. To the extent of creating terribly crafted analogies and seeing those who point out such abuses/exploiting as being "mad" and "stamping their feet" instead of principled. But, hey, you see it all how you choose to see it all.

--H

[Bohdb]

So, this seems to be targeted at me...
Like Hurin wrote, you didn't get it straight, its just far off to be compared like that.
You didn't offend me, you just did it wrong.
I do group. So your last part is obviously wrong, too.
And i want groups to be rewarded for grouping. As long as it makes sense. I want groups to be rewarded for doing things that are intended to be done in groupsize. I dont want people to be much more rewarded for facerolling it. Thats where the issue appears.
I'm totally fine with groupers getting double gold earnings per time plus items that dont drop in solo-areas.
I'm not fine with groupers getting 100x the gold rates plus insane amounts of items that are so obviously not intended to be there AT THIS RATE that SSG needs to react and delete all loot for good so that latecomers dont get anything anymore. Which has happened now and in Rohan.

Try harder

No I got it pretty straight. What does it matter if people solo, duo or run in groups of 4 or 5 or whatever? How does it hurt your game if they do? It doesn't and it should not matter what they drop. Why should you care how much gold someone gathers at? It is not your problem and unless it comes from your wallet or vault it should not be an issue. You cannot control how people are playing in the game and you are trying to do so. What you think is correct may not be correct for me. I have not dropped a Blemished Symbol in MT or Hammer in a month so for my reasoning anyone getting any is unfair and SSG should stop it. I have not had a chance to run Dread and get either the Swan Knight or the dog and that is unfair so no one should get it.

Get it? Just because a multiboxers wastes their time to farm the gold or junk that is their time to waste. As long as they are not sniping your kills or looting your wallet who cares? If people need to earn 10's of thousands of gold to make themselves feel better fine let them do so and walk away. Put them on ignore and don't buy their junk but to try and force SSG to change the way loot if given because you do not like it sounds like the kids in my story. I fellow with my two kids all the time we can. Not because we are trying to loot the landscape but because I want to play with them. We fellow with kin mates to help with their kill and yes to try and draw better treasure for lower level people. Sorry if that upsets you but that is how people play and to get mad at use for getting extra coins or whatever makes no sense and frankly not sure why it is worth your effort.

[Hurin]

No I got it pretty straight. What does it matter if people solo, duo or run in groups of 4 or 5 or whatever? How does it hurt your game if they do? It doesn't and it should not matter what they drop. Why should you care how much gold someone gathers at? It is not your problem and unless it comes from your wallet or vault it should not be an issue. You cannot control how people are playing in the game and you are trying to do so. What you think is correct may not be correct for me. I have not dropped a Blemished Symbol in MT or Hammer in a month so for my reasoning anyone getting any is unfair and SSG should stop it. I have not had a chance to run Dread and get either the Swan Knight or the dog and that is unfair so no one should get it.

Get it? Just because a multiboxers wastes their time to farm the gold or junk that is their time to waste. As long as they are not sniping your kills or looting your wallet who cares? If people need to earn 10's of thousands of gold to make themselves feel better fine let them do so and walk away. Put them on ignore and don't buy their junk but to try and force SSG to change the way loot if given because you do not like it sounds like the kids in my story. I fellow with my two kids all the time we can. Not because we are trying to loot the landscape but because I want to play with them. We fellow with kin mates to help with their kill and yes to try and draw better treasure for lower level people. Sorry if that upsets you but that is how people play and to get mad at use for getting extra coins or whatever makes no sense and frankly not sure why it is worth your effort.

You seem terribly invested in this idea that everyone around you is very upset and/or "mad". . . but you seem to be the only one agitated.

Anyways, you seem to be one of those: "This is my game and what I do within my game does not affect anyone else" folks. And I would admire that as it fits my own real-life perspective/ethos quite well. . . if only it applied to games (MMOs especially) as readily. We saw those sorts of rationalization as the Store was introduced and then more and more each time it broke its bound and gradually undermined more and more of the game's integrity. We'd hear "What others buy in the Store doesn't affect you. Just don't buy it if you don't like it." Do I need to explain to you how that, too, was myopic and overly simplistic?

--H

[Cordovan]

I've had to delete several dozen posts that drug the conversation WAY off topic. Discussions about the legitimacy of BitCoin have no place in a LOTRO thread.

Regarding multiboxing, our position remains unchanged. If it's being used to exploit, then it's not okay. If you are botting so you can go to the movies, make a sandwich, and get eight hours of sleep while farming XP without any interaction on your part, that's not okay. If you are behind the keyboard, actively playing, you're probably fine.

[Hurin]

Regarding multiboxing, our position remains unchanged. If it's being used to exploit, then it's not okay. If you are botting so you can go to the movies, make a sandwich, and get eight hours of sleep while farming XP without any interaction on your part, that's not okay. If you are behind the keyboard, actively playing, you're probably fine.

Hi Cordovan,

This would seem to disallow the behavior of certain folks in this thread who have avowed that it's perfectly fine to park their LMs with their pets on aggressive and then watch Netflix while alt-tabbed out, or are in the other room, are sleeping, or otherwise are not "behind the keyboard, actively playing." Indeed, the "making a sandwich" mention seems to say a lot.

The question, as always, will come back to what is considered "actively playing". . . some folks in this thread seem to think that being near the computer so that they can hear and respond to a GM /tell while their characters are passive and their pets do all the work actually constitutes "actively playing." While, to others, it is obviously a case of just beating the system and convincing a GM that you are "actively playing" when that is clearly not actually the case. Indeed, imho, it's more an act of thumbing your nose at the cops and saying: "you can't prove nuthin' coppers!"

Heck, one could even interpret "behind the keyboard, actively playing" as an "and" conjunction and assert that someone who is behind the keyboard but is letting their pets do all the killing for hours on end is not "actively playing." And thus "probably [won't/shouldn't] be fine."

Regardless, the question of the loot system incentivizing these types of shenanigans perhaps also warrants a comment, if you'd be willing. In a nutshell, is it within the bounds of allowed multiboxing play for a single person to park six-to-twelve LMs in a spot and gather ~900+ gold per hour? Regardless of whether that one person is behind the screen watching it passively, or is in the other room watching Netflix while that hour's 900 gold accumulates in his bags?

Whatever the end result, thanks for commenting as far as you have been able so far!

--H

[Vilan]

No I got it pretty straight. What does it matter if people solo, duo or run in groups of 4 or 5 or whatever? How does it hurt your game if they do? It doesn't and it should not matter what they drop. Why should you care how much gold someone gathers at? It is not your problem and unless it comes from your wallet or vault it should not be an issue.

What price do you think keys would go for in a world where everyone had 10 gold?

What price do you think keys would go for in a world where 95% of people have 10 gold and 5% of people have 10,000 gold?

Do you still think what other players do has no impact on you?

[siipperi]

Regarding multiboxing, our position remains unchanged. If it's being used to exploit, then it's not okay. If you are botting so you can go to the movies, make a sandwich, and get eight hours of sleep while farming XP without any interaction on your part, that's not okay. If you are behind the keyboard, actively playing, you're probably fine.

Please Cordovan. Answer to us. Why does (Turbine/)SSG allows(ed) rank farming with multiboxing accounts? That is for sure exploitive usage of multiboxing don't you think?

- Meaning you log in several other side of PvP accounts and kill them on your character. Rez on healer and kill them again. Repeat for hours. GMs do nothing.

This way one can get rank 15 (highest PvP rank) in few days. Which with normal gameplay can take years.

[Tsch]

Thanks for demonstrating how you can misuse features in the game. That's half of the definition of exploiting. The other half is that you are misusing those systems for personal profit. A big check there too. For some reason, I feel like we've had this discussion before...

You get hit with facts you don't like, you immediately start accusing people of exploiting and cheating. I am glad you understand just how weak your position is in this discussion.

[subadar]

Interesting read, but i would not expect major changes to the games core design at this point.

[Hurin]

Wait... what? You are trying apply Cordovan's position on plugins to this thread's topic? I find your use of that quote in this context to be intentionally deceptive and misrepresentative of the CM. Perhaps there is a reason that Cordovan has not yet offered a comment in this thread, and one should leave him to his own counsel rather than invoke him.

You get hit with facts you don't like, you immediately start accusing people of exploiting and cheating. I am glad you understand just how weak your position is in this discussion.

Just waiting for you to get caught up. . .

Kudos to you though. You're apparently reading every post conscientiously. Even if your outrage at a reasonable interpretation (especially given Cordovan's reply in this thread which you'll reach eventually) seems overwrought.

--H

[siipperi]

ISBOXers and such are allowed by them. They don't have issues with those.

[Oelle]

Now that Cordovan stated SSG's opinion on multiboxing, can we get away from multiboxing and back to topic?
Which is not multiboxing, but the lootsystem.

[WayfaringNomad]

Open tap loot is preferable to me. I would rather see other players in a zone as assistance than competition. I think it helps promote the friendly atmosphere that makes this game so enjoyable to me.

[Bohdb]

Point me where he says it was against the rules. There are MANY who says they combat multibox in that post. But here you are claiming in your own words that Sapience says otherwise and combat multiboxing is an EXPLOIT/ Illegal. I'm sure if I'm following everything it literally suggest something else and it relates to farming PvMP points. Show me since I missed it and I'm getting old like you.

Again not exploiting

All your facts fail, for an economist you should at least know basic math. LOL Inflation that he can't show a single price relating to an item question, and suggest there is! LOL Mathematical formula fail.

I didn't use it as adjective. It clearly has a quotation which meant that you honestly believe that speeding is an "exploit". A sarcastic portrayal of you "speeding" and "exploit". Reading comprehension fail.

Had to go back and find one of these posts and did not have a chance to put a reply to it. Just because something is not considered illegal does not make it any less of an exploit. Multiboxing is allowed but you are still exploiting the system. You are still drawing more resources that a single toon run as a single player with one toon does. They do not stop this kind of thing so you are taking advantage of it, exploiting it. I might not like way those other guys are going about how loot drops does not make me a fan of multiboxers. I know that is your play style but IMO if you are not multiboxing for role play purposes then I feel you should not be doing it. It is an exploit and you can dance any kinds of words around it you want to but it is cheap. But again it is your play style. You can try and work it out in your head to seem like some kind of hero to those who need to exploit like Hurin is working to keep our integrity in check by his standards does not mean people are going to like it. I find mulitboxers often in the way for quests or trying to get a deed done and more often than not in the way. If for some crazy reason they do decide to restructure the loot to fix this I would like to see y'all chucked out the door.


I guess the one way to really fix the afk farming would be that xp's, loot and deed counts should not be assigned to an afk person. You can fight it, kill and maybe die but if you are afk you get no reward. I think that might change the way some things are done but I am sure someone would exploit that too.


Mulitboxing might not be against the rules but it is an exploit. Don't try to fool yourself.

[Gyes]

Now that Cordovan stated SSG's opinion on multiboxing, can we get away from multiboxing and back to topic?
Which is not multiboxing, but the lootsystem.

I will simply point out that the whole topic of multiboxing began because (I believe, at any rate... don't let me put words into your mouth) your proposed change to the loot system was intended in part to combat multibox exploitation. And I will again say there are other, more targeted ways to address that issue without affecting everyone else.

Anyway...

I don't buy the "realism" argument. It's not very realistic that you can find gold on a deer or that an orc is carrying around hundreds of silver pieces. If you're willing to suspend disbelief there, then why not believe that an orc has 6 swords?

I think there should be incentive to fellow up (with real people, not your 11 mannequin "friends"). I agree that the incentive as it stands now is pretty excessive, but I don't think changing loot drops is the solution. As some of our exploiting friends have pointed out, they end up trashing practically everything that drops anyway, unless it's a lockbox, key, or some other valuable. Orc swords really aren't the problem. I also think that the drop rate on most rare loot drops is sufficiently low that running a (real, not multiboxed) fellow for an hour or two tops isn't going to flood the market. Consider that to be the incentive to fellowing. Gold, on the other hand, is a real problem for the reasons we've discussed ad nauseum. I don't like the idea that an orc has X gold and it is evenly divided between Y fellows. That's a bit draconian for my taste, but I do agree that an orc having XY gold divided between Y fellows creates way too much gold. I'd vote for a solution that Asheron's Call used for sharing XP. One person earned 100% of a monster's XP. A 2-man fellow each earned 75%, for a total of 150% between the two. A 3-man earned 2/3 of the available XP, for a total of 200% (or something like that... it's been a while) and so on. The max XP a fellow could earn was something like 300% split between 8 people. You could easily do the same thing with gold here. You'd still end up earning more gold in a fellow than you would alone because of the higher kill rate, but it wouldn't be absurdly high compared to solo hunting. Again, consider it an incentive to fellow up.

Bango, if you're still out there, I'd be interested in picking up our conversation where we left off...

[watevaplz]

Had to go back and find one of these posts and did not have a chance to put a reply to it. Just because something is not considered illegal does not make it any less of an exploit. Multiboxing is allowed but you are still exploiting the system. You are still drawing more resources that a single toon run as a single player with one toon does. They do not stop this kind of thing so you are taking advantage of it, exploiting it. I might not like way those other guys are going about how loot drops does not make me a fan of multiboxers. I know that is your play style but IMO if you are not multiboxing for role play purposes then I feel you should not be doing it. It is an exploit and you can dance any kinds of words around it you want to but it is cheap. But again it is your play style. You can try and work it out in your head to seem like some kind of hero to those who need to exploit like Hurin is working to keep our integrity in check by his standards does not mean people are going to like it. I find mulitboxers often in the way for quests or trying to get a deed done and more often than not in the way. If for some crazy reason they do decide to restructure the loot to fix this I would like to see y'all chucked out the door.


I guess the one way to really fix the afk farming would be that xp's, loot and deed counts should not be assigned to an afk person. You can fight it, kill and maybe die but if you are afk you get no reward. I think that might change the way some things are done but I am sure someone would exploit that too.


Mulitboxing might not be against the rules but it is an exploit. Don't try to fool yourself.

Most multiboxers invite other gamers to get their deeds done. Except BOT farmers which Cordovan clarified. Even if they don't you can tag the mobs in question since they don't go close, if you are healer you can heal tag the multiboxer and you get credit for said kill.

AFK - BOT farmers is totally against the rules. The only way the GMs check on this is to ask for replies which they often do whenever one gets a report. Or often enough most GMs check these areas which my multiboxed account don't farm. LOL

I think we already clarified this combat multiboxing is not an exploit. I'm not fooling myself either.

[watevaplz]

Btw: I have roughly 50k Gold, so there is nothing, I couldn't afford.
Thats not the problem. The system is bad, no matter if I am affected, if I profit or if I dont. Its just bad and unfair.

Ok

1) I been multiboxing (rather dualboxing) since 2007 yes I did all the most difficult raids dual boxed and even tried multibox the client wasn't responsive. I stopped doing this until lvl moria capped where the introduction of a Warden that can solo everything made my efforts sadly diminished and rolled a warden myself.

2) I also have a problem with afk-botters which is against the rules. Clearly defined by Cordovan, Sapience back where multiboxers was a questionnaire.

BTW: you have more gold than my 6 multi-boxed account. 1-105. I don't trade gold with my main nor bought any items.
Of course my main is totally different question. But in regards with loot there is always a "big discrepancy" with multiboxed players. Back then I get all of the loot to myself and no need to roll with other players.

Let's look at the farm raids: There was 100+ in most of this farm raids.
LR-Skoi-ToT farm raids where it bought new "gold" didn't make the prices of any items go up at that time. To the contrary all prizes went down the recipes back then was 3g (maxed) and all new crafting mats was 200-300s. The finished product however was sold for 30-50g for gold pieces, 15-20g for teal pieces. We can tell how many players show value of their "gold" in relation with end game stuff.
Now that the farms are gone they went up 5-10g for recipes and 1-3 gold for crafting materials. Finish product is down 10-15g for gold and 5-10g for teals?

Now it is definitely gone almost all players move to the most logical - next in line activity: Which is Crafting instances that bought new changes in "in-game economy":
The prices of items is in all time low right now.

In Arkenstone

Wild Essences - 225-250g

The only item that went up are necessary ingredients to get Wild Essences. Ithilien crafted stuff which went up to 30g compare to 10g prior to U20. Since the availability of said items (the fragments) skyrocketed the raw materials required to make them increased and there is definite demand for it. Universal Solvent (which is still relatively controlled by Store), Ithilien crafted items, raw T10 mats.

Other Prize: The price of this items constant prior to U20.
Sturdy Keys 25g
Imbue legacy 400-500g
Remembrance 400-500g
Anfalas 10g


We can definitely tell Player Activity, Rewards (Frequency Drop Rate), The "End-Game" loot value, Max Level, is what mostly drives the value of many items in game. Not because of "total gold" that can be "circulated" in the "in-game economy". It be awkward if they base the prices on the 50k gold you have. Well it clearly doesn't look that way.

[Oelle]

I will simply point out that the whole topic of multiboxing began because (I believe, at any rate... don't let me put words into your mouth) your proposed change to the loot system was intended in part to combat multibox exploitation. And I will again say there are other, more targeted ways to address that issue without affecting everyone else.

Anyway...

I don't buy the "realism" argument. It's not very realistic that you can find gold on a deer or that an orc is carrying around hundreds of silver pieces. If you're willing to suspend disbelief there, then why not believe that an orc has 6 swords?

I think there should be incentive to fellow up (with real people, not your 11 mannequin "friends"). I agree that the incentive as it stands now is pretty excessive, but I don't think changing loot drops is the solution. As some of our exploiting friends have pointed out, they end up trashing practically everything that drops anyway, unless it's a lockbox, key, or some other valuable. Orc swords really aren't the problem. I also think that the drop rate on most rare loot drops is sufficiently low that running a (real, not multiboxed) fellow for an hour or two tops isn't going to flood the market. Consider that to be the incentive to fellowing. Gold, on the other hand, is a real problem for the reasons we've discussed ad nauseum. I don't like the idea that an orc has X gold and it is evenly divided between Y fellows. That's a bit draconian for my taste, but I do agree that an orc having XY gold divided between Y fellows creates way too much gold. I'd vote for a solution that Asheron's Call used for sharing XP. One person earned 100% of a monster's XP. A 2-man fellow each earned 75%, for a total of 150% between the two. A 3-man earned 2/3 of the available XP, for a total of 200% (or something like that... it's been a while) and so on. The max XP a fellow could earn was something like 300% split between 8 people. You could easily do the same thing with gold here. You'd still end up earning more gold in a fellow than you would alone because of the higher kill rate, but it wouldn't be absurdly high compared to solo hunting. Again, consider it an incentive to fellow up.

No, infact the intention to change the lootsystem was fighting exploitation of the lootsystem by everyone that does it. Not just targeted at multiboxers.
They are just one part of the puzzle. And they are not the part that made SSG now or Turbine in Rohan change the loot, which affects everyone. Those were the farmraids.

I might be wrong, but afaik, only humanoids drop gold/silver/copper and deers just drop items like hides, no money.
I see no problem with an orc having currency. I dont know which currency orcs use, but most humanoids have currency and to make it easy, I just accept that its the same we use. And the number is just what SSG means is good for the intended inflation. That it rises with level is just normal in mmos.

The idea to put some kind of DR on loot would be acceptable. Still gives a big bonus to grouping, but not anymore endless.
btw: we had this on page4:

How about we keep remote loot, but limit the possible amount of remote looters per mob to double the number of intended groupsize for the enemy?
So normal enemies only have maximum double loot, signature have maximum 6 loots and elite have maximum 12 loots? Wouldnt this clearly reduce the problem while not harming anyone doing content as intended?

Alternatively, let the loot be reduced by some degree depending on the number of looters. Lets say there is a share of loot that consists of 10 silver 80% chance on junkloot and 5% chance on nice loot.
If two players loot, every player gets 9 silver, 70% chance on junkloot and 4% nice loot.
If 6 players loot, everyone gets 5 silver, 30% chance on junkloot and 2% nice loot.
12 players -> 3 silver, 20% junkloot, 1% rare loot.
Grouping would still lead to more loot, but not as much as now, which is ridiculous.
(these are just example numbers)

[watevaplz]

No, infact the intention to change the lootsystem was fighting exploitation of the lootsystem by everyone that does it. Not just targeted at multiboxers.
They are just one part of the puzzle. And they are not the part that made SSG now or Turbine in Rohan change the loot, which affects everyone. Those were the farmraids.

I might be wrong, but afaik, only humanoids drop gold/silver/copper and deers just drop items like hides, no money.
I see no problem with an orc having currency. I dont know which currency orcs use, but most humanoids have currency and to make it easy, I just accept that its the same we use. And the number is just what SSG means is good for the intended inflation. That it rises with level is just normal in mmos.

The idea to put some kind of DR on loot would be acceptable. Still gives a big bonus to grouping, but not anymore endless.
btw: we had this on page4:

That is however punishing players who group up. If I use the LR, Skoi, ToT farm only thing they would do is not group and do the same thing and get the same rewards they are getting. Since it is an OPEN Tag environment.

Unless you introduced values such as:
1) Closed tag environment

So we are back to the primitive ways where "mob stealing" is in effect and everyone will be racing for tags. Which often result and triggered into
1) Hunters and Ministrels getting the best tag preference.
2) Tagging everything and training it to others where they don't get any credit.
3) Contacting a GM. For Grieving "Mob Stealing", Training.

All of these factors were innate back when it was SoA. I'm sure there was a post regarding this somewhere here where a GM actually tried to intervene because of a Beryl Shard farm and not everyone is getting their equal share or chance. Quite relative to what happened during Take Heart, Men Of Gondor prior to U20.1 fix.

I'm certain that Barter Item farmed (LR Skoi, TOT) introduced "more gold" in the "economy". But like i've said before it didn't infact it in any way. So yes players who group up tends to get more, so is anyone who is solo and just heal-tagging during these farms.

[Oelle]

That is however punishing players who group up.

No, its not. Its giving grouping players extra bonus rewards for grouping, if you look at loot per time, which should be the only thing that counts as time is the only real restraint in games. Its just not anymore overrewarding people for playing in groups which are as big as possible. Its rewarding people for doing challenging content in fitting groupsize.

And not grouping shouldnt change anything as that was part of the suggestion: when it goes to loot in landscape, everyone should be counted like being in the same group, no matter if grouped or not.

[Mukor]

All what have to be done is removing T7 essences out of the loottable after ostgiliath and perhaps make the LI-drops class specific.
That´s all and it temoves a lot af #### outof the loot.

[Oelle]

All what have to be done is removing T7 essences out of the loottable after ostgiliath and perhaps make the LI-drops class specific.
That´s all and it temoves a lot af #### outof the loot.

I'd prefer T8 Essences in lvl105 content, too. And getting LI-Tokens like in Moria (and much less than LI today) instead of the endless spam would be great. Or just shards as LI can be bought at the relicmaster afaik.
However, thats just a change in loottables, not a change in the system how loot gets distributed. I want the latter.

[watevaplz]

No, its not. Its giving grouping players extra bonus rewards for grouping, if you look at loot per time, which should be the only thing that counts as time is the only real restraint in games. Its just not anymore overrewarding people for playing in groups which are as big as possible. Its rewarding people for doing challenging content in fitting groupsize.

And not grouping shouldnt change anything as that was part of the suggestion: when it goes to loot in landscape, everyone should be counted like being in the same group, no matter if grouped or not.

DR was partly introduced sometime with Riders Of Rohan (where they introduced open loot system). If I remember correctly the value of xp, loot diminished per the number of individuals who was tagging mobs etc.. Since Riders Of Rohan was pretty new at that time it gave lots of players (solo, group) penalties just because someone else is in immediate area doing the same quest/area related landscape-mobs. Not many liked it and want to revert back to open-loot system when it was implemented.

It still a mainstay with Ettenmoors so what you have is generally a small labeled as "elite" "ganking" group instead of a big group. DR is there and you can hear partly some valid arguments regarding heal taggers in effect taking a portion of their gains. If what you say that DR will give more loot to those that group. Why the preference to be solo "heal tagging" or just in relatively small fellowship groups for ganking purposes? Remember we are still in OPEN loot system.

[Jungle_Boogy]

well i thought i would call in after playing ESO for 2 weeks and see how things are going,
have to say the landscape loot system is EXACTLY what you guys are looking for, i mean you have to basicaly stop and search
every kill, it sux to say the least, i mean you could be slugging it out for an age and before you can search your kill disapears,
GREAT RIGHT i know :|
any way i was thinking how about you guys go over there as its already set up and we just stay here, with our nice,
speedy system, kill, instant in the bag where you can tank a mountain of enemy and and get your loot not have it disappear
by the time you get to the last kill,
anyway i checked it out for you, it's nice and shiny, i played it from beta, you will love it.

[Mukor]

I'd prefer T8 Essences in lvl105 content, too. And getting LI-Tokens like in Moria (and much less than LI today) instead of the endless spam would be great.
However, thats just a change in loottables, not a change in the system how loot gets distributed. I want the latter.

Let the people group if they want and don´t be jealousabout the drop.
Multiboxing is something else. But for that they should include a request of the adress in if there are multiaccounts with the same. Close both. and bann fist time for a week,second a month,3 half a year, fourth a year fifth permanent.
Normal grouping shouldn´t be punished. Everyone can do it. It´s depends on you if you do it or not.