Imagine if the devs actually played the game with us.

[Joetzim]

Wouldn't it be priceless to watch a dev fail hard at the class they created or watch Cordoward run in and steal an envelope right from under your nose? It would be refreshing to see how they get excited about the content they created and farm with us, mortals. Never gonna happen for various reasons... but it's fun to just imagine that the player who beat you to that mob by 1s and now you have to wait God knows how long for it to respawn, that was Cordovan being selfish.

[kickman77]

Wouldn't it be priceless to watch a dev fail hard at the class they created or watch Cordoward run in and steal an envelope right from under your nose? It would be refreshing to see how they get excited about the content they created and farm with us, mortals. Never gonna happen for various reasons... but it's fun to just imagine that the player who beat you to that mob by 1s and now you have to wait God knows how long for it to respawn, that was Cordovan being selfish.

.
I do know of at least 1 current and 1 former staff member who play on their personal time... The former staffer I knew in game and when I found out they were X it blew my mind because you would not expect it. (Sorry not mentioning names)

But as of right now with current content, it does come across like they do not play at least end game stuff. Not saying they do not but as a player, it comes across that way with the way some of the content is.

[Joetzim]

I heard GW2 devs all play LOTRO in their free time, because they know it's a better game. Why can't our devs do the same?

[Gandolf_TheOld]

Have to back up Kickman77. Some of the Devs do play LOTRO on their own time.

[CroKat]

It is not about if they actually play or not, it is about the impression they give.

In my old AO days we had devs, GMs and ARKs (players trained to help players, some kind of lower GMs who would deal with minor problems) involved in the game to the point one would feel they are all playing on the same level with the rest of us. We had a game director thread on the forum every Friday where GD Means would post the development plans, ask the community for feedback and answer the questions.
I remember once when the Legacy of Xan was just released I led a raid that got bugged on the last boss, I filed a ticket and about half an hour later I got GD himself coming to our rescue on his legit lvl 220 character and ordering GMs to reset the fight.
GMs and ARKs would organize weddings and sometime invite players for a tour on their special GM island, a spot in the game world for "higher beings" to chill and relax.

All that gave us the impression of developers playing and working together with us players to make a better game for all. Something completely different from what I see here. And no, having level 40 trampling through the Shire does not count.

[bucko39]

And no, having level 40 trampling through the Shire does not count.

^^This. I want to see a dev talk about his/her decisions on adjusting class balance. I want to see a dev talk about the challenges (or lack of a challenge) they felt when doing the latest dungeon. What made them decide to use mechanic X or Y. Did it live up to their expectations? What are their goals/incentives for future development. Do they personally prefer gear with set bonuses or are they more inclined towards non-set bonus gear. What skill would they personally like to see nerfed...buffed...or just removed altogether? All of this would reflect an interest, a desire to play the game and know the classes--outside of the fact that it is their job (and they couldn't care less about actually playing it).

Instead, we get..."Um, do you guys think burglars should have bows?" D'oh!

[BangoTwinkletoes]

Wouldn't it be priceless to watch a dev fail hard at the class they created or watch Cordoward run in and steal an envelope right from under your nose? It would be refreshing to see how they get excited about the content they created and farm with us, mortals. Never gonna happen for various reasons... but it's fun to just imagine that the player who beat you to that mob by 1s and now you have to wait God knows how long for it to respawn, that was Cordovan being selfish.

Bit like asking the owners of the Titanic whether they made their own deckchairs.

[Joetzim]

It is not about if they actually play or not, it is about the impression they give.

In my old AO days we had devs, GMs and ARKs (players trained to help players, some kind of lower GMs who would deal with minor problems) involved in the game to the point one would feel they are all playing on the same level with the rest of us. We had a game director thread on the forum every Friday where GD Means would post the development plans, ask the community for feedback and answer the questions.
I remember once when the Legacy of Xan was just released I led a raid that got bugged on the last boss, I filed a ticket and about half an hour later I got GD himself coming to our rescue on his legit lvl 220 character and ordering GMs to reset the fight.
GMs and ARKs would organize weddings and sometime invite players for a tour on their special GM island, a spot in the game world for "higher beings" to chill and relax.

All that gave us the impression of developers playing and working together with us players to make a better game for all. Something completely different from what I see here. And no, having level 40 trampling through the Shire does not count.

Definitely what I meant by this thread. It's not whether or not they are playing or they claim to be playing, it's their "presence" that would make a great deal of difference.

[Thundertrain]

Bit like asking the owners of the Titanic whether they made their own deckchairs.

It's actually a bit more like asking the builders of the Titanic if they ever travel by cruise ship. Which, one would hope, would be a thing that they would do, so they would know how to construct and configure the ship they were building to make it function as well as it could.

It is legitimately beyond my comprehension how devs for any game could hope to successfully work on classes, itemization, or any game content without playing the game themselves. Even if that were the case, and the devs and SSG were entirely dependent on feedback from the players on Bullroarer for how to make changes to the programmed content, it might still work if said feedback was incorporated into the updates before release at a rate of more than 5-10%. (And that's being generous.)

[BangoTwinkletoes]

It's actually a bit more like asking the builders of the Titanic if they ever travel by cruise ship. Which, one would hope, would be a thing that they would do, so they would know how to construct and configure the ship they were building to make it function as well as it could.

It is legitimately beyond my comprehension how devs for any game could hope to successfully work on classes, itemization, or any game content without playing the game themselves. Even if that were the case, and the devs and SSG were entirely dependent on feedback from the players on Bullroarer for how to make changes to the programmed content, it might still work if said feedback was incorporated into the updates before release at a rate of more than 5-10%. (And that's being generous.)

Not solely to do with SSG/lotro, but never ever underestimate the power of conventional / received wisdom in an organisation and the extent to which "we know better than our customers" is pervasive at the highest levels of management. Late 70s British Leyland cars spring to mind.

[Thundertrain]

Not solely to do with SSG/lotro, but never ever underestimate the power of conventional / received wisdom in an organisation and the extent to which "we know better than our customers" is pervasive at the highest levels of management. Late 70s British Leyland cars spring to mind.

You're correct, of course. Sad, but so incredibly true for almost every industry.

[OldMadeOfLions]

...it's fun to just imagine that the player who beat you to that mob by 1s and now you have to wait God knows how long for it to respawn...

To be honest, when I play I'm very, very aware of the people around me and am much more deferential than most players might be, since I want you to be happy and have a good time. So I'm not going to intentionally steal a node or a quest item from you, if I can help it.

We do play, but it's the anonymity that means we can play the game normally, and not feel like we're still on-the-clock.

MoL

[Dotlbeme]

Bit like asking the owners of the Titanic whether they made their own deckchairs.

Harsh dude...but laughing all the same...

[Dotlbeme]

Now this is not exactly what the OP was talking about, but I remember some GM events and GM controllers were real <***>s to the lowbies. Yeah they gave everyone a pain free rez (no damage costs or de-buff) but some people got caught who just stumbled on the scene. Kudos to MoL for being righteous in disguise, but you might do better without naming your toon "Madeol Oins" (I kid...)

[Snowlock]

We do play, but it's the anonymity that means we can play the game normally, and not feel like we're still on-the-clock.

MoL

This is a artificial cultural conceit that has been infested at turbine since the start, and has really damaged the game's development. I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be too harsh, I mean I can definitely empathize with what you're saying. However, you're a creative. Does a cook not eat his own food? Does an author not love to read his own books? Does a musician not love his own music?

When I read this from you guys, and I've read it many times over the years, it tells me (whether you mean it to or not) that you don't love this thing. It's a job. Maybe a job you like even, I'll grant you that. But it's just a job. But you're making art, guys, you don't have that luxury. You have to have a passion not just for the creative process, but for the finished product. Because if you don't have a love for the latter, the former can't be anything but corrupted.

How many hours of grind does this game require to provide you with enough revenue to continue it? You are asking for our devotion. Where's yours? You don't even like to play.

[OldMadeOfLions]

You don't even like to play.

Ha! That's funny. ^_^

MoL

[Snowlock]

Ha! That's funny. ^_^

MoL

No, it's not. And if it's not the reality, it's the perception. And not just from me, it's all over the forums and has been for years.

[Joetzim]

To be honest, when I play I'm very, very aware of the people around me and am much more deferential than most players might be, since I want you to be happy and have a good time. So I'm not going to intentionally steal a node or a quest item from you, if I can help it.

If I understand this correctly, you play like that, because you are like that as a person, not because it's your duty as a dev to put other people first. So this is kind of not what I meant. What I meant is, IF the devs were recognizable in-game when they play the game, they would not have to be overly considerate or saintly. From the perspective of the average player, it is a lot more fun to have a dev rudely cross you in-game, because it's like wow(!) MoL literally just picked up the last arrow that I needed and now my quest will fail! I might even menton this in world chat, to which someone might playfully reply, "Who is MoL?" and you might say something like "I was there first." Imo, this would be a hilarious situation that also highlights the fact that the devs are like us, they are players like us, they are there to have fun, they are not there to serve anybody.

We do play, but it's the anonymity that means we can play the game normally, and not feel like we're still on-the-clock.

MoL

Makes sense and this is why I said in the OP it's not likely to happen. You can't really be you, when you are a dev. By the way, just a side not, by devs playing I do not mean admin accounts or anything, I just mean normal average accounts, but your toon is actually called MoL so you are recognizable.

[Amorey]

No, it's not. And if it's not the reality, it's the perception. And not just from me, it's all over the forums and has been for years.

You know , today is the day of the 10th anniversary and for bad or for good we should at least try to celebrate coming this far. Of course working on making LOTRO is a job, but many of us know very well it is also a labor of love for those who work on it, especially MoL. While I can understand your feelings, I also believe these forums are not representative of the LOTRO community as a whole. Here you will always have the vocal minorities of both camps, not the whole player base. All over these forums in many years we had many battles, but also many good times, so Happy Anniversary

[OldMadeOfLions]

By the way, just a side not, by devs playing I do not mean admin accounts or anything, I just mean normal average accounts, but your toon is actually called MoL so you are recognizable.

We don't do this because we don't want people squatting on those names or pretending to be us. It saves a lot of headaches that way.

MoL

[Gandalphor]

To be honest, when I play I'm very, very aware of the people around me and am much more deferential than most players might be, since I want you to be happy and have a good time. So I'm not going to intentionally steal a node or a quest item from you, if I can help it.

We do play, but it's the anonymity that means we can play the game normally, and not feel like we're still on-the-clock.

MoL

It's nice to know you do, but where are you with your levels?

I understand you don't want people sending you tells complaining all they long (might not be a bad thing, might make you expand the ignore list a bit more), but names and chats and what not can be covered with something else. So you could release a video of you playing.
As long as it is not the usual lvl 20-40 dev toon. I laughed my ### off when I once saw someone from the team I believe go out from "that cave" when the maiden asked for what kings desire. Paraphrasing, but I think you get it. He went out looking for a /kneel. Speaking of which, I do miss a little puzzle in this game. Games used to develop creativity, etc., now the only creativity what little you have is if you're raiding and developing strategies.
Where I was trying to get with this is that we would love to see you struggle on some of the things you created just to understand the game, mechanics and classes. This is to your and our benefit too. Since if you actually tested these out you would get a better feel of classes and what needs to change, of mechanics and how things work... A little beyond the code of the game and looking at the matrix. You having a clear and full understanding of the game means that you will have a better sense of what needs to be done. Or at least it should mean that. It also means less time for working on the game, but we might be willing to sacrifice this for quality and better communication with the player base.

[OldMadeOfLions]

It's nice to know you do, but where are you with your levels?

Guardians and Champions at cap, a Beorning I played through Bingo with, and various other classes throughout the levels (often hanging out at the earlier caps and expansions). I just made a new baby Lore-master, since it's one of the classes I didn't play beyond Eriador.

As for puzzles and experience with creative solutions, I have the benefit of having made 'That Which I Desire Most,' so I'm not going to make fun of someone who didn't know the answer to it. But I like puzzles and add them wherever I can.

I love LOTRO -- it's not just a job to me, and I didn't especially think I had made that a secret.

MoL

[furtim]

ITT: People proving why it's a good idea for devs not to play under well-recognised character names.

[bucko39]

No disrespect to MoL, but he's dancing around the point here.
I don't care what his toon name is, I don't want to pester him on a live server and I'm genuinely not concerned with him stealing a mining node from me.

What does he (or any other dev) play as their "main". Did they find the latest raid challenging? What did they think of the gear? Where they able to get the gold item they wanted?
How long did it take them to reach max rep with the current reputation tiers in Update 20? If they were in charge, what changes would they make to their favorite class? What is their favorite class? What class graphic or animation would they love to see "fixed"? What is their all time favorite raid or dungeon (to play)? What would they add to the game if resources were "unlimited"?

The list goes on...

[Joetzim]

This is a artificial cultural conceit that has been infested at turbine since the start, and has really damaged the game's development. I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be too harsh, I mean I can definitely empathize with what you're saying. However, you're a creative. Does a cook not eat his own food? Does an author not love to read his own books? Does a musician not love his own music?

When I read this from you guys, and I've read it many times over the years, it tells me (whether you mean it to or not) that you don't love this thing. It's a job. Maybe a job you like even, I'll grant you that. But it's just a job. But you're making art, guys, you don't have that luxury. You have to have a passion not just for the creative process, but for the finished product. Because if you don't have a love for the latter, the former can't be anything but corrupted.

How many hours of grind does this game require to provide you with enough revenue to continue it? You are asking for our devotion. Where's yours? You don't even like to play.

We don't know to be honest. It's possible that LOTRO is a vocation for the devs, a calling even. It is also possible that it's literally no more than a job that earns them a living and they can't stop laughing at our naivity, when we demand that they take a video game seriously. We don't know and I can relate to both views. You spend x hours a day working on something and then they expect you to deal with the same thing in your free time as a hobby. Sounds ludicrous. Or maybe it's work-play for you, it's a craft, it's something you take pride in, it's something you don't feel complete without, and then, it naturally follows that you play it / work on it in your free time, you have pet projects, just like the BoB housing area started out as a pet project of one of the devs.