Change the Lootsystem for landscape

[Oelle]

So... repfarming in wastes was stopped and exchanged by ash-farming in Mordor...
This topic is still the better solution than deleting all interesting loot in landscape!

There is two viable ways: not having any interesting easy-farmable loot in landscape (which is what happens some updates after release of any content).
Or just letting the loot where it is but changing the lootsystem back to what it was in the beginning -> one one loot per mob. This doesnt harm players playing the content as intended and stops afk-farming and farmraids.

[Arnenna]

So... repfarming in wastes was stopped and exchanged by ash-farming in Mordor...
This topic is still the better solution than deleting all interesting loot in landscape!

There is two viable ways: not having any interesting easy-farmable loot in landscape (which is what happens some updates after release of any content).
Or just letting the loot where it is but changing the lootsystem back to what it was in the beginning -> one one loot per mob. This doesnt harm players playing the content as intended and stops afk-farming and farmraids.

But this makes it not fun for anyone who runs content with a friend, or in fellowship areas in small groups (Lang Rhuven,really nice, fun to quest F/S area - died overnight). A better option would be to limit it to fellowship or below IMO. They did that in Turtle. But, I'm not even sure they wish to stop farm raids to be honest. There is only so many times that a thing happens where it can be labeled as not intended, but after it starts becoming this regular, that label is inappropriate. I used to think, not intended, but now I'm leaning more towards, totally intended, but for limited time, as that's how it always goes.

[Oelle]

But this makes it not fun for anyone who runs content with a friend, or in fellowship areas in small groups (Lang Rhuven,really nice, fun to quest F/S area - died overnight). A better option would be to limit it to fellowship or below IMO. They did that in Turtle. But, I'm not even sure they wish to stop farm raids to be honest. There is only so many times that a thing happens where it can be labeled as not intended, but after it starts becoming this regular, that label is inappropriate. I used to think, not intended, but now I'm leaning more towards, totally intended, but for limited time, as that's how it always goes.

the amount of trashloot you get while soloing or duoing is so small that it really shouldnt be related to gaming being fun or not.
Plus, if you play together you kill mobs faster which results in at least the same rate of items per time like playing alone, unless you are playing in a zone thats completely faceroll. Zones intended for groups already have more loot per mob to reward doing those zones. That should suffice.

Farmraids would still be more efficient than farming solo because:
1) maybe you just cant kill those mobs solo and its much less dangerous than solo
2) groups have synergies that make killing faster than multiple soloers
It would just be more effective by a factor of synergy, which, depending on groupsize might be x1.5 or x2 or something like that and has a maximum if the group is too big because mobs just dont respawn fast enough... Just not x[numberofpeopleingroup], which is ridiculous.

But it would only be more efficient than soloing as long as everyone is active. Which should be an intention of a game. To reward active playing instead of standing afk in a farmraidspot. And as we see in every other update, farmraids are unwanted by SSG, otherwise they wouldnt delete loot from loottables and such harm ALL players.

Calling some type of gameplay "intended for a short time after release" is actually insulting imo...

[Arnenna]

the amount of trashloot you get while soloing or duoing is so small that it really shouldnt be related to gaming being fun or not.
Plus, if you play together you kill mobs faster which results in at least the same rate of items per time like playing alone, unless you are playing in a zone thats completely faceroll. Zones intended for groups already have more loot per mob to reward doing those zones. That should suffice.

Farmraids would still be more efficient than farming solo because:
1) maybe you just cant kill those mobs solo and its much less dangerous than solo
2) groups have synergies that make killing faster than multiple soloers
It would just be more effective by a factor of synergy, which, depending on groupsize might be x1.5 or x2 or something like that and has a maximum if the group is too big because mobs just dont respawn fast enough... Just not x[numberofpeopleingroup], which is ridiculous.

But it would only be more efficient than soloing as long as everyone is active. Which should be an intention of a game. To reward active playing instead of standing afk in a farmraidspot. And as we see in every other update, farmraids are unwanted by SSG, otherwise they wouldnt delete loot from loottables and such harm ALL players.

Calling some type of gameplay "intended for a short time after release" is actually insulting imo...

I wasn't talking so much about the amount of loot per mob, but more about how it is distributed. Example, if each mob has one hide, who gets it if there are three people questing together? The player landing the killing blow? RIP guards of slower dps-ers. Random RNG? Frustrating game play. Roll? Tedious gameplay for landscape kills.

I used to think the same as you, that raid farms are not intended, and indeed why they get removed, but how many times can they make the same mistake, continuously, before one has to question - is it really a mistake? SSG have passed that quota IMO. All that's left is to see it as a deliberate choice, but limited to a specific timeframe. AKA, we'll put it in, then remove it later. These things are afterall, raised in the beta forums.

[Milii]

Maybe it is done at the beginning to lower costs of items like mats, etc. and thereby discourage Gold Sellers over the long run.

[Oelle]

I wasn't talking so much about the amount of loot per mob, but more about how it is distributed. Example, if each mob has one hide, who gets it if there are three people questing together? The player landing the killing blow? RIP guards of slower dps-ers. Random RNG? Frustrating game play. Roll? Tedious gameplay for landscape kills.

I used to think the same as you, that raid farms are not intended, and indeed why they get removed, but how many times can they make the same mistake, continuously, before one has to question - is it really a mistake? SSG have passed that quota IMO. All that's left is to see it as a deliberate choice, but limited to a specific timeframe. AKA, we'll put it in, then remove it later. These things are afterall, raised in the beta forums.

I'd say random RNG. We already have that everywhere in landscape. What does it matter if its increased for trashloot thats not worth bothering anyway? You wouldn't even notice it. The same can happen now. You kill an enemy with something that doesnt have 100% dropchance in a group of 3 people. One gets something, the other two not. Plus they might even increase the number of trashdrops generally, if there is only one loot per mob as it wouldnt be exploited as much as now. If you think random RNG is frustrating, you should already feel our lootsystem is frustrating. Thats all it is. I agree on rolling white/grey items being tedious and lasthit/firsthit not being fun either, while firsthit being still better than lasthit. Imo, random is the most fair choice as all others penalize tanks or healers in groups too much (not that you actually need those for landscape).

I see what you are writing... My hope just hasnt died yet. One day, SSG will wake up and do a change. Not just a bandaid fix like the last 5 years, a general one. I prefer changing the lootsystem, but would be okay with no trashloot at all and better questrewards or something like that in exchange. Adding things for early access and deleting it later is bull####.

Maybe it is done at the beginning to lower costs of items like mats, etc. and thereby discourage Gold Sellers over the long run.

I dont see how that could be done besides Merchants selling items like mats. Which I see no point in. As long as players gather materials, they can set prices as they want. They will set it at highest possible values that get sold. These are determined by amount of gold available. As long as gold is worth nothing besides player-trade, it wont vanish. As long as gold just gets more and more, prices will rise accordingly. Discouraging goldsellers will only work with making their work not worth it. Which means banning their farmbots and changing the lootsystem. But thats not even the main point here.

[Milii]

As long as players gather materials, they can set prices as they want. They will set it at highest possible values that get sold. These are determined by amount of gold available.

Econ 101: the Law of Supply and Demand. It isn't as much the supply on money that determines the price of an item but the demand for the item itself as measured against the supply of said item. When a new tier is opened up everyone both wants to max out their crafting and regear to better stuffs. This puts an immediate and very high demand for any and all mats. At the first, since most people are using and not selling said mats, the supply is near zero, in fact at opening bell the supply of mats is zero. In theory this would make the price of a single mat equal infinity, or in the case of a game 'gold cap'. Fact is, the old top-tier mat rapidly decreases in price as it's demand evaporates. There is an actual formula to guestament what every tier of mats should be priced at that includes such data as average landscape mob gold-drop, number of toons actually playing at that level, and a few other factors with the first one being the most important factor. At End-game the mats will stay elevated in price, normally about twice what their price would be if it wasn't the top-tier mat. But that price is only after the market stabilizes to a point that there is not mat shortage.

Gold sellers base their profitability with a game on bot-hours/$. The more dollars they can make per bot-hour the more profitable a game is. The most profitable item in a game that has crafting for a bot is almost always crafting mats. Since when a new tier opens up in a game the price of said mats is outrageous, so is the profitability for the Gold-sellers. The quicker that that price can be stabilized, the quicker the temptation of gold-sellers to set up a computer to a particular game is mitigated.

[Oelle]

Econ 101: the Law of Supply and Demand. It isn't as much the supply on money that determines the price of an item but the demand for the item itself as measured against the supply of said item. When a new tier is opened up everyone both wants to max out their crafting and regear to better stuffs. This puts an immediate and very high demand for any and all mats. At the first, since most people are using and not selling said mats, the supply is near zero, in fact at opening bell the supply of mats is zero. In theory this would make the price of a single mat equal infinity, or in the case of a game 'gold cap'. Fact is, the old top-tier mat rapidly decreases in price as it's demand evaporates. There is an actual formula to guestament what every tier of mats should be priced at that includes such data as average landscape mob gold-drop, number of toons actually playing at that level, and a few other factors with the first one being the most important factor. At End-game the mats will stay elevated in price, normally about twice what their price would be if it wasn't the top-tier mat. But that price is only after the market stabilizes to a point that there is not mat shortage.

Gold sellers base their profitability with a game on bot-hours/$. The more dollars they can make per bot-hour the more profitable a game is. The most profitable item in a game that has crafting for a bot is almost always crafting mats. Since when a new tier opens up in a game the price of said mats is outrageous, so is the profitability for the Gold-sellers. The quicker that that price can be stabilized, the quicker the temptation of gold-sellers to set up a computer to a particular game is mitigated.

Supply of crafting mats in a game like lotro is litterally unlimited. People buying mats are just to lazy to go out there and gather it. Especially in case of Mordor, I got enough crafting mats within 2 hours of just opening those new crafting chests to fully train crafting on ALL my professions. Which is all existing professions. There was no limited supply, just lazyness and too much gold, which told people they dont have to farm because they can buy anything anyway... and some people abusing said people and therefore setting ridiculous prices, while everyone else didnt bother about gold cause its useless in present lotro.

[Arnenna]

One day, SSG will wake up and do a change. Not just a bandaid fix like the last 5 years, a general one. I prefer changing the lootsystem, but would be okay with no trashloot at all and better questrewards or something like that in exchange.

This^^ This right here would be the golden nugget as far as I'm concerned. Rewards for actually purchasing and then running content. Unfortunately, though, my hope has worn too thin, and all I see for the future is grind, and grind bypass in the store to go with it. When we get to a point where players that don't even buy the latest content, can stand at the end of their earlybird raid farms, better equipped than people that did buy the content and ran it via questing (that would be the last two major updates), then we've reached the point of no return. Just my two pennies.

[Hetweith]

Capt obvious says: you collect mats, you sell mats, you profit. there is nothing here but bitterness about not getting your way. mats dont have to be reduced in price on the AH. complainers just need to stop being lazy. period.

[Andy_X]

Bad idea. Don't punish group play in a massive multilayer online rpg. It's not a pure solo game. Play solo if you like and that should not be punished but neither should groups. Each and everyone should be rewarded, no matter what their preference is. Your choice.

[Oelle]

Bad idea. Don't punish group play in a massive multilayer online rpg. It's not a pure solo game. Play solo if you like and that should not be punished but neither should groups. Each and everyone should be rewarded, no matter what their preference is. Your choice.

Its not punishing groups, its rewarding everyone the same, actually even rewarding groups more than soloers. Its rewarding for playing, instead of rewarding for just existing and being in a group.
Whats live since years is punishing soloers.

[Hurin]

MY UNDERCOVER JOURNEY AS AN LM AGGRESSIVE PET LOOT FARMER
(WHILE ALWAYS BEING AT MY KEYBOARD AND FOLLOWING THE RULES SO AS NOT TO GET IN TROUBLE!)

BACKGROUND - MOTIVE/RATIONALE
Those who remember my posts (both of you) from months ago will recall that I'm firmly against the "magic multiplication of loot" according to how many people are in a group. And, that, in particular, I think the passive, single person/player operating six+ clients in order to take advantage of the loot mechanics should be considered to be exploiting the game's systems (multiplied loot + multiboxing ability + free accounts + LM aggressive pets stance + loophole in 'unattended' definition).

I honestly didn't want to play a game where I would be going through the grinds and earning what I received when I could just be parking six LMs for an hour or two and then buying what my character needed. Like a baseball player in the steroids era, I felt like I either needed to use steroids too (unacceptable) or quit the game altogether (undesirable).

Before giving up on a game I had played and loved for a decade, I wanted to have concrete facts rather than relying on my own subjective guesses set against the assertions of those who had a stake in the current system. . .


MOST MULTIBOXING IS FINE, COMMENDABLE, WONDERFUL!
I can't say this clearly enough, I have zero issue with multiboxing. Those who multibox to form bands and play music? Great! Those who multibox to actively play and adventure while controlling multiple toons? Great! Heck, I can even see a case for the legitimacy of single players who run around with a full fellowship under their control (belonging onto one person/player, though) and actively killing/farming mobs.


THE PROBLEM
But, the single player with a fellowship of LMs with pets set on aggressive, passively sitting in a corner of the game world gathering up 6x loot for hours on end while not actually playing the game. . . it has been bizarre to me that anyone would stick up for that.

However, being unable to get decent numbers and facts out of those who would admit to engaging in such behavior, I eventually became tired of arguing out of ignorance and theory. . . and so several months ago, in the midst of the discussion, I decided to see for myself just how overpowered and/or abusive this behavior is and just how hard it would be to get a "LM farming fellowship" leveled without spending any money (worst case scenario for everyone. . . except the farming player).


THIS BEHAVIOR IS EXPLICITLY ALLOWED UNDER THE TERMS I DID THIS -- OR I WOULDN'T HAVE DONE IT!
First and foremost, I resolved to determine that I would not be putting any accounts or my forum presence at risk by doing this. As those who engage in this behavior argue constantly (and they are correct): So long as you are there at your computer and able to answer a /tell from a GM, you will not be punished for farming as a multi-boxing group via aggressive pets. This is borne out by posts over the years here on these forums, and by the quoted emails/tickets on other sites quoting Turbine representatives stating that multiboxing and even passive farming are allowed so long as you are there at your computer.

Thus satisfied that I would not be in violation (much as I think it should be a violation!), I resolved to do several things. . .

1. I would subscribe for (at least) the first month of all six accounts' existence. Not just to assuage my own conscience and avoid charges of hypocrisy. . . but to get the neato subscriber horse available at the time! I was also able to generate some LP via deeding to help purchase XP acceleration gear, etc.
2. I would always make polite contact with any solo players or other groups who entered the area I was farming and offer to make way for them if they felt I was hindering their ability to quest or deed.
3. I would level primarily through passive farming using pet aggressive mode so as to get a sense of how long it would take to reach level 100 without questing or purchasing anything.
4. I would allow myself to use looted XP accelerators from lootboxes. Accruing six of these and coordinating their usage was the primary hindrance here.
5. I would never, ever take these LMs to the Moors!

So. . . the findings. . .


WHILE LEVELING TO 100

• It took ~2 weeks of /played time to passively level to 100.
• During just that leveling time, I amassed ~15,000 gold.
• During just that leveling time, I amassed ~75 Sturdy Steel Keys. Current AH value @ 30g per key: 2,250 gold
• During just that leveling time, I amassed ~50 Universal Solvents.
• During just that leveling time, I amassed more lootboxes at all tiers than I could store. Between 10-20 per key.
• I accrued more crafting mats and rep items than I could ever use even across all my (primary accounts') alts or even sell unless I posted them at "fire sale" prices.
• Since I included the AH gold value of Sturdy Steel Keys above, I'm not including the value of the Stat Tomes and such that dropped from opened lootboxes.
• I ever only received a single "Unattended Combat Macro" check from a GM during the entire leveling process. Which, of course, I passed!

FARMING AT LEVEL 100

First, let's go back to a post I made in another thread where the following theoretical numbers were posted. . .

. . . this is not at all hypothetical and has been witnessed. I have a video. Heck, you can probably go witness it right now.

60 silver per kill.
Approximately 20 kills per minute (that's conservative, but lower it if you like).
Multiplied by 12 accounts
-----------------------------
14.4 gold per minute
864 gold per hour

One player extracts that while expending no additional effort/expertise/skill there than any other (solo) player. Some having done nothing more than any other player except park their army of drones near spawns for the last week or three to get them to endgame levels where gold payouts are greatest. . . extracting 864 gold from the game every hour while watching Netflix.

If I still need to explain the concept of a "game's integrity" with that all-too-real scenario in mind, I'm sorry, but you'll just keep pretending not to understand. Because understanding doesn't suit your agenda.

This is what is being defended. Not much more really needs to be said.

I actually don't have a problem with the people who are doing this right now, today. They are only taking advantage of the rules as they are currently established. Which is understandable. I do have a problem with how others are so enamored of the benefit they receive as they undermine the game's integrity that they pretend to be entitled to these rules staying as they are. . . and even as they exploit those loopholes, features, and lax rules to do direct damage to the game's economy, its integrity, and yes (in certain circumstances, probably worsening in the future) its performance, they go around calling others "fascists", "despicable", and "evil" merely for pointing out what they're doing and suggesting that SSG may want to reconsider.

Which, actually, is hilarious. But also sad.

--H

P.S. Feel free to cut that kill rate in half and it's still utterly ridiculous and indefensible. Though that won't stop stakeholders from defending the indefensible and claiming some bizarre birthright to it in perpetuity.

So, let's state at the outset that those numbers were. . . wildly inaccurate. And I apologize for stating them with more certainty than I should have.

Even when cutting that rate in half to adjust for my using only a fellowship rather than a 12-toon raid, the numbers are way too high. My best estimate at this point, while watching several hours at lvl 99/100 in that same spot is
80 gold/hour. Which, obviously, falls embarrassingly short of 432 gold/hour predicted.

A fellowship, standing in one place, and allowing only the pets to do the killing as mobs wander into range is simply not going to get as many kills as a raid. Whereas, just minimal direct interaction (targeting mobs outside aggro range) and spreading out further drastically increases the number of kills per minute.

One other thing I noted when testing a raid. . . gold/silver loot does not appear to distribute across fellowship boundaries within a raid. For a player in fellowship 2 to receive the silver/gold from a fellowship 1 kill, some damage must have been done by fellowship 2. This, of course, can be worked around by strategically planting the members of each fellowship while some minimal effect on spatial coverage might take place.

So, in the end, the actual numbers from a fellowship at level 100 parked in a high spawn-rate area. . .

• 80 gold/hour
• After selling vendor-trash, it's 130 gold/hour
• 1.5 keys/hour
• .5 solvents/hour
• 1000 "+50 rep items"
• 240 "+250 rep items"

One aside. . . one truly bizarre bit of behavior I cannot wrap my head around. One of my toons appears to be "cursed" (by the RNG?). . . she was always in slot 2 of the fellowship and I noted that she always came up short in gold totals by the end of the run. If everyone else brought in ~40, she's bring in 27 gold. Every time. By the end, I even changed her slot in the fellowship a couple times, and she still brought in substantially less gold. Every time. This may be the only thing I continue to test with these toons after making this post.


CONCLUSIONS
In all, I'm relieved (though embarrassed) that the issue isn't as bad as I feared it was. And this issue need not drive me from the game (though, sadly, others still might. . . I know, "boo hoo"). And I once again apologize for my part in perpetuating and taking part in hyperbole that made more of this issue than was probably warranted. I had bad facts and made bad assumptions (though in good faith) and nobody in a position to know better was willing to provide better ones. So I went in search of them myself. . .

80 gold/hour when Black Steel Keys can be farmed in 20-30 minutes and sold for 200 gold. . . that's not nearly as bad as I thought. Though, of course, it should be pointed out that farming a Black Steel Key requires actively playing. And, further, it's possible to do both simultaneously.

Honestly, even though I was "doing this for science". . . I still felt "icky" every time I pooled the gold. Even as I became fully aware of the seductive "fun" of watching keys and solvents pour in (sometimes quite quickly when the RNG was being generous). I began to totally "get" why people became addicted to this "style" of gameplay even as I became more and more convinced that it remains fundamentally problematic. Gathering thousands of magnificent hides within an hour or two while commandeering six game clients will have that effect. . . thrilling you with the efficiency while (I would hope) making you think: "This really shouldn't be allowed."

So, in the end, I still think this behavior is. . . to use a loaded phrase. . . "wrong." Just not so egregiously wrong that I feel compelled to rail against it for all time or quit the game in a huff. People are still, after all, gaining hundreds/thousands of gold on top of keys, solvents, rep items, and crafting mats in exchange for nothing more than logging in their clients and then (as some fully admit) watching Netflix or even sleeping while listening for the /tell from a GM intended to determine if their little farm is in fact "unattended."

As I said, though still irked by this loot system that leads to such shenanigans (as well as other issues), I'm relieved that I now know that it "ain't quite so bad". . . your mileage may vary.

Best Regards,

Hurin

[Snowlock]

I like the loot system as it was before mounted combat. Tapping penalties and no remote looting. It had it's share of frustrations, but it didn't lag out a zone thanks to farmers like the current system does.

[Oelle]

many nice facts

Thanks alot for the insight.
Just one single point:

Lets assume you have 6 farming LMs in one group.
Now, lets assume, you double that to 12 in a raid = 2 groups.
If we further assume, that you are able to increase the killing rate, by spreading your LMs across the landscape, you wont just double your income. It might increase up to 4 times what you did (double killing speed and double gold by double number of looters).
That would result in your 80 gold x4 320 gold

Sure, thats still only half of what was told by some others... but maybe those just knew a better farming space where mobs dropped more gold or died faster? would "just" be a factor of 2 missing.

Still... we dont need to look at the exact numbers, doing this experiment is appreciated and really interesting. And should have cost you lots of time and money, just for mountains of gold :P

And btw: the ability to sell keys for 200g each only exists, because there is a huge amount of gold around. which partly is the result of the lootsystem and its exploiters. So saying "well, you can farm things and sell it to others" is already part of the problem

And now with lvl115, LM blue pets got a big buff, which should allow you to spread your farming groups even more, if you go to lvl105 zones to reach highest possible killing rates. My guess is, you'll get more kills per minute with 12 toons spread around an entire camp (always two of different groups at the same space) than if your farmers stand in the same area, because they need to help each other killing.

[Arnenna]

MY UNDERCOVER JOURNEY AS AN LM AGGRESSIVE PET LOOT FARMER
(WHILE ALWAYS BEING AT MY KEYBOARD AND FOLLOWING THE RULES SO AS NOT TO GET IN TROUBLE!)

BACKGROUND - MOTIVE/RATIONALE
Those who remember my posts (both of you) from months ago will recall that I'm firmly against the "magic multiplication of loot" according to how many people are in a group. And, that, in particular, I think the passive, single person/player operating six+ clients in order to take advantage of the loot mechanics should be considered to be exploiting the game's systems (multiplied loot + multiboxing ability + free accounts + LM aggressive pets stance + loophole in 'unattended' definition).

I honestly didn't want to play a game where I would be going through the grinds and earning what I received when I could just be parking six LMs for an hour or two and then buying what my character needed. Like a baseball player in the steroids era, I felt like I either needed to use steroids too (unacceptable) or quit the game altogether (undesirable).

Before giving up on a game I had played and loved for a decade, I wanted to have concrete facts rather than relying on my own subjective guesses set against the assertions of those who had a stake in the current system. . .


MOST MULTIBOXING IS FINE, COMMENDABLE, WONDERFUL!
I can't say this clearly enough, I have zero issue with multiboxing. Those who multibox to form bands and play music? Great! Those who multibox to actively play and adventure while controlling multiple toons? Great! Heck, I can even see a case for the legitimacy of single players who run around with a full fellowship under their control (belonging onto one person/player, though) and actively killing/farming mobs.


THE PROBLEM
But, the single player with a fellowship of LMs with pets set on aggressive, passively sitting in a corner of the game world gathering up 6x loot for hours on end while not actually playing the game. . . it has been bizarre to me that anyone would stick up for that.

However, being unable to get decent numbers and facts out of those who would admit to engaging in such behavior, I eventually became tired of arguing out of ignorance and theory. . . and so several months ago, in the midst of the discussion, I decided to see for myself just how overpowered and/or abusive this behavior is and just how hard it would be to get a "LM farming fellowship" leveled without spending any money (worst case scenario for everyone. . . except the farming player).


THIS BEHAVIOR IS EXPLICITLY ALLOWED UNDER THE TERMS I DID THIS -- OR I WOULDN'T HAVE DONE IT!
First and foremost, I resolved to determine that I would not be putting any accounts or my forum presence at risk by doing this. As those who engage in this behavior argue constantly (and they are correct): So long as you are there at your computer and able to answer a /tell from a GM, you will not be punished for farming as a multi-boxing group via aggressive pets. This is borne out by posts over the years here on these forums, and by the quoted emails/tickets on other sites quoting Turbine representatives stating that multiboxing and even passive farming are allowed so long as you are there at your computer.

Thus satisfied that I would not be in violation (much as I think it should be a violation!), I resolved to do several things. . .

1. I would subscribe for (at least) the first month of all six accounts' existence. Not just to assuage my own conscience and avoid charges of hypocrisy. . . but to get the neato subscriber horse available at the time! I was also able to generate some LP via deeding to help purchase XP acceleration gear, etc.
2. I would always make polite contact with any solo players or other groups who entered the area I was farming and offer to make way for them if they felt I was hindering their ability to quest or deed.
3. I would level primarily through passive farming using pet aggressive mode so as to get a sense of how long it would take to reach level 100 without questing or purchasing anything.
4. I would allow myself to use looted XP accelerators from lootboxes. Accruing six of these and coordinating their usage was the primary hindrance here.
5. I would never, ever take these LMs to the Moors!

So. . . the findings. . .


WHILE LEVELING TO 100

• It took ~2 weeks of /played time to passively level to 100.
• During just that leveling time, I amassed ~15,000 gold.
• During just that leveling time, I amassed ~75 Sturdy Steel Keys. Current AH value @ 30g per key: 2,250 gold
• During just that leveling time, I amassed ~50 Universal Solvents.
• During just that leveling time, I amassed more lootboxes at all tiers than I could store. Between 10-20 per key.
• I accrued more crafting mats and rep items than I could ever use even across all my (primary accounts') alts or even sell unless I posted them at "fire sale" prices.
• Since I included the AH gold value of Sturdy Steel Keys above, I'm not including the value of the Stat Tomes and such that dropped from opened lootboxes.
• I ever only received a single "Unattended Combat Macro" check from a GM during the entire leveling process. Which, of course, I passed!

FARMING AT LEVEL 100

First, let's go back to a post I made in another thread where the following theoretical numbers were posted. . .


So, let's state at the outset that those numbers were. . . wildly inaccurate. And I apologize for stating them with more certainty than I should have.

Even when cutting that rate in half to adjust for my using only a fellowship rather than a 12-toon raid, the numbers are way too high. My best estimate at this point, while watching several hours at lvl 99/100 in that same spot is
80 gold/hour. Which, obviously, falls embarrassingly short of 432 gold/hour predicted.

A fellowship, standing in one place, and allowing only the pets to do the killing as mobs wander into range is simply not going to get as many kills as a raid. Whereas, just minimal direct interaction (targeting mobs outside aggro range) and spreading out further drastically increases the number of kills per minute.

One other thing I noted when testing a raid. . . gold/silver loot does not appear to distribute across fellowship boundaries within a raid. For a player in fellowship 2 to receive the silver/gold from a fellowship 1 kill, some damage must have been done by fellowship 2. This, of course, can be worked around by strategically planting the members of each fellowship while some minimal effect on spatial coverage might take place.

So, in the end, the actual numbers from a fellowship at level 100 parked in a high spawn-rate area. . .

• 80 gold/hour
• After selling vendor-trash, it's 130 gold/hour
• 1.5 keys/hour
• .5 solvents/hour
• 1000 "+50 rep items"
• 240 "+250 rep items"

One aside. . . one truly bizarre bit of behavior I cannot wrap my head around. One of my toons appears to be "cursed" (by the RNG?). . . she was always in slot 2 of the fellowship and I noted that she always came up short in gold totals by the end of the run. If everyone else brought in ~40, she's bring in 27 gold. Every time. By the end, I even changed her slot in the fellowship a couple times, and she still brought in substantially less gold. Every time. This may be the only thing I continue to test with these toons after making this post.


CONCLUSIONS
In all, I'm relieved (though embarrassed) that the issue isn't as bad as I feared it was. And this issue need not drive me from the game (though, sadly, others still might. . . I know, "boo hoo"). And I once again apologize for my part in perpetuating and taking part in hyperbole that made more of this issue than was probably warranted. I had bad facts and made bad assumptions (though in good faith) and nobody in a position to know better was willing to provide better ones. So I went in search of them myself. . .

80 gold/hour when Black Steel Keys can be farmed in 20-30 minutes and sold for 200 gold. . . that's not nearly as bad as I thought. Though, of course, it should be pointed out that farming a Black Steel Key requires actively playing. And, further, it's possible to do both simultaneously.

Honestly, even though I was "doing this for science". . . I still felt "icky" every time I pooled the gold. Even as I became fully aware of the seductive "fun" of watching keys and solvents pour in (sometimes quite quickly when the RNG was being generous). I began to totally "get" why people became addicted to this "style" of gameplay even as I became more and more convinced that it remains fundamentally problematic. Gathering thousands of magnificent hides within an hour or two while commandeering six game clients will have that effect. . . thrilling you with the efficiency while (I would hope) making you think: "This really shouldn't be allowed."

So, in the end, I still think this behavior is. . . to use a loaded phrase. . . "wrong." Just not so egregiously wrong that I feel compelled to rail against it for all time or quit the game in a huff. People are still, after all, gaining hundreds/thousands of gold on top of keys, solvents, rep items, and crafting mats in exchange for nothing more than logging in their clients and then (as some fully admit) watching Netflix or even sleeping while listening for the /tell from a GM intended to determine if their little farm is in fact "unattended."

As I said, though still irked by this loot system that leads to such shenanigans (as well as other issues), I'm relieved that I now know that it "ain't quite so bad". . . your mileage may vary.

Best Regards,

Hurin

My gosh, you have some stamina Thanks for the insight and for posting your findings. Your patience is to be commended, especially as you feel the type of gameplay you tested is still wrong (even if not against rules), and you're not likely to continue with it regularly or adapt it as your main playstyle.

[Nosdracir]

MY UNDERCOVER JOURNEY AS AN LM AGGRESSIVE PET LOOT FARMER
(WHILE ALWAYS BEING AT MY KEYBOARD AND FOLLOWING THE RULES SO AS NOT TO GET IN TROUBLE!)

...snipped lots of good info...

As I said, though still irked by this loot system that leads to such shenanigans (as well as other issues), I'm relieved that I now know that it "ain't quite so bad". . . your mileage may vary.

Best Regards,

Hurin

Your 6-box results correlate nicely with my solo farming experiences. I spent a good 30 hours oveer several weeks actively farming the big Corsair camp north of Calembel with my first two characters to reach 100 (Champ and Hunter) in order to pick up a good stock of 96+ TA LIs for all my alts. I acquired about 1/6 of the of the non-gold loot and 20-25% of the gold. I think I got more coin because I was running a pattern that hit all the spawn points of the chests/backpacks/corpses in the area.


Something interesting from the 21.3 beta release notes:

Lore-master pets and Captain soldiers were collecting mobs from a greater area of landscape than desired. Their aggro radius has been halved.

Halving the radius will reduce the area in which the pet will aggro mobs by 75%. Won't stop AFK farming, but will cut into the profits.

[Oelle]

imo, repfarming and ashfarming in farmraids is in the same way "wrong" like afk-farming. It abuses the lootsystem exactly in the same way and shouldnt be intended gameplay. Changing loot or loot distribution is the only way to stop both. As we see, SSG feels its easier to change loot, but that hurts all players and not only exploiters.

[Ethrildar]

imo, repfarming and ashfarming in farmraids is in the same way "wrong" like afk-farming. It abuses the lootsystem exactly in the same way and shouldnt be intended gameplay. Changing loot or loot distribution is the only way to stop both. As we see, SSG feels its easier to change loot, but that hurts all players and not only exploiters.

Except:

A) They have changed (broken) ash drop loot, in that now an hour's ash farming will yield you one or maybe two items unless very lucky, 100% non-viable.
B) There is no other reasonable mechanic to acquire ash for those not willing or able to grind the 3man on T2C, which is at current the only way to get ash in any reasonable time-frame (and even that is a massive RNG grind-fest).

Were the ash item drop rates not lowered to non-viable levels, how else would you advise those not currently geared enough to run the 3man, to acquire ash to get the gear required for the 3man?

[maartena]

Except:

A) They have changed (broken) ash drop loot, in that now an hour's ash farming will yield you one or maybe two items unless very lucky, 100% non-viable.

I did a ash farm yesterday in one of the 115 level orc camps in Dor Amarth - Fushaum Tum, and drop rate is quite good, I got about 8-9 pieces in about an hour. The previous popular ash farm location in Agernaith wasn't 115 level, and I believe pre-115 level mobs have indeed been nerfed. On Arkenstone farms are now organized in Fushaum Tum with decent results.

B) There is no other reasonable mechanic to acquire ash for those not willing or able to grind the 3man on T2C, which is at current the only way to get ash in any reasonable time-frame (and even that is a massive RNG grind-fest).

You can get a Black Steel Key once a day with the dailies, and the lootboxes are dropping-a-plenty everywhere. Each lootbox contains at LEAST 20 ash, often more, and it often also contains an item. It's pretty easy for a SOLO player to be able to gather the 420 ash needed for a piece of armor within a week. yes, its not fast....but if you do not farm AT ALL, and do not run any group content AT ALL and take into account the ash drops from daily level 115 mobs as well.... you could pretty much "load up" a character in about 2 months time.

If you are a crafter and you keep opening up crafting crates, you get all the mats you need to make a daily crafting item that can also be turned into 10 ash. If you DO join a farm or two a week, and you DO join a few groups from time to time.... you might be able to fully load that character in about a month's time instead. - NOT including the gold rings at 3000+ ash or so a piece....

Now, as to whether this is acceptable... is a different story. I don't really care to be honest, and there is something to be said about whether you NEED all the top end gear available if you are just soloing anyways..... But I do get it, its nice to have the new shiny!

Were the ash item drop rates not lowered to non-viable levels, how else would you advise those not currently geared enough to run the 3man, to acquire ash to get the gear required for the 3man?

As said, farm level 115 camps instead such as Fushaum Tum in Dor Amrarth. Easy to reach from the nearest stable. Drop rate is the same as what the Agernaith Uruk camp used to be, but of course its level 115 so you need a ash raid that doesn't have a lot of AFK-lamers and people who actually participate.... Arkenstone seems to have figured this out already (there was a farm Monday and Tuesday night there), maybe not all servers have yet.

I got about 8 or 9 pieces yesterday, and that came down to 160 or 180 ash. Also opened up a box because I got a key from the dailies..... which gave me 100 ash and a 20 ash break down purple item.

I'm not in a hurry. If I don't get my shinies today, i'll get my shinies tomorrow. Or next week. Or next month.

[Ethrildar]

Loads of words

20 ash per day from a lootbox + 20 if it drops a teal. Crafting an item for 10 ash per day, too. 50 per day, wowee, looks like the 15,000 ash required to gear your character will only take you 35375735 years.

I did not know there was still a location you could farm, but 8 items per hour is still hilariously poor and my point which you missed was this:

Why is there a gearing system in which the only viable way to farm ashes was, or is, to grind for thousands of hours killing mobs. It just makes no sense, we've had two or three updates so far which have added to the gear we can get and yet we still don't actually have a playable "system" in which to acquire ash, just grind for it at a snails-pace or "have" the gear somehow to begin with in order to do the 3man, which is carcinogenic due to the kite-heavy mechanics and number of adds.

[Vilan]

Halving the radius will reduce the area in which the pet will aggro mobs by 75%. Won't stop AFK farming, but will cut into the profits.

I think pet aggressive stance should just be removed.

If my toon stands in an area and gets attacked, what happens? I just stand there and die unless I click an attack button. The game doesn't have you automatically defend yourself, presumably so that people don't stand AFK somewhere and hoover up loot unattended.

Yet pets are allowed to circumvent this. Doesn't make sense. I know they want to maintain the convenience of having pets blow stuff up without micromanaging them, but it may not be worth the abuse potential. Or better yet remove the magic multiplication of loot in groups, which would accomplish much the same goal.

[Aylinda]

MY UNDERCOVER JOURNEY AS AN LM AGGRESSIVE PET LOOT FARMER
(WHILE ALWAYS BEING AT MY KEYBOARD AND FOLLOWING THE RULES SO AS NOT TO GET IN TROUBLE!)

... (cut out all the awesome info, thanks so much for this insightful post Hurin!) ...

As I said, though still irked by this loot system that leads to such shenanigans (as well as other issues), I'm relieved that I now know that it "ain't quite so bad". . . your mileage may vary.

Best Regards,

Hurin

I suspect that your initial estimate may well have been quite close to the truth Hurin, or even understating it, as people who do this as a "way to play the game" obviously get better at it over time. Probably MUCH better in fact and they wont shy away from using keypress software of various degrees of sophistication to have their LM train slowly moving across the landscape, if that increase the loot/minute, either. A GM tell makes a loud "bing"so they don't have to be sitting at their dozen keyboards to hear it. It's a play style (if one can even call it that) that I don't particularly like, but I'm not sure if I should be bothered by it. I mean, hey if it makes someone happy, let them live their multibox farming dream ... right?

As a solo player who loves to rerun low level content, one new alt at a time, doing every deed and quest in sight, I'm used to lots of people having "way better stuff" than I do, so I'm not that bothered by people who "have it all" and why should I be? As far as I can tell, their way of playing the game has almost zero impact on my way of playing the game. In the ten years I've played I've come across an LM train outside of town maybe once, so it doesn't spoil the scenery for me either. As for knockon effects, ok some will argue that it affects the game economy, but I'm not sure that it does and if it did, it would be to lower prices (by increasing supply), after all the farmer mainly wants to sell stuff, he has no need to spend his vast amounts of gold buying stuff, as he already has everything. So he won't be driving prices up. All he can do is flood the market with high value stuff, which will inevitably end up turning that high value stuff into medium to low value stuff. Such is supply and demand. Not that I've seen any signs of this happening mind you, so personally I'm not sure that multiboxing LM farmers do impact the economy. Every now and then I'll see someone trying to sell some huge stack of keys, but they always try to sell them at market price, not at fire-sale prices, oddly enough. So again, apart from the "omg, how on earth did he get all those keys??!!" reaction I have to that, it doesn't really affect me.

At the end of the day, a genuine player using this technique because it gives him some kind of a buzz is, in my opinion, missing the whole point of the game and that's his loss. Instead of playing, he's really done quite a lot of what qualifies more as work than play, to set up his multibox environment. "Ah, but once he's set it up, he no longer has to play at all!", you might say. Well, yeah and that's the 2nd part of my point. He's done work (not play) and paid for it to boot with real money (multiple computers and multiple accounts cost money, especially multiple computers) so that ... wait for it ... he no longer has to play lotro, because it's basically playing itself ... So his goal in playing is to not have to play, right? Mmm ok. "Oh, but he 'wins' the game." someone might say. Well, no. He doesn't win squat, all he wins is disdain from those that know that games are for enjoyment and relaxation. If his idea of enjoyment and relaxation was watching Netflix, then he could have just knuckled down to Netflix much sooner, instead of wasting time and money setting up a complex multiboxing scenario and THEN sitting in front of Netflix. So yeah, to each his own, but I remain baffled by anyone other than a gold farmer, who does this to earn real life money, doing this kind of thing. At least the gold farmer has a coherent reason for doing work so that lotro plays itself, the reason being that for the gold farmer, it IS his work, even if we all wished the gold farmers found themselves a different line of work.

[Aethelwyna]

Okay so you basically get a choice:

Everyone that tags the monster still gets his normal loot, so playing together and helping each other is rewarding, having more players around is improving your gameplay.

OR

Only 1 person gets loot or the loot gets split or something, so when another player intervenes with your fight you loose out on items, which means having other players around is deterring to your gameplay.

Now keep in mind it's an MMOrpg.

And now you know why "everyone gets their loot" systems like lotro and gw2 are universally loved by literally everyone.

Don't try to fix what isn't broken, thanks. As soon as you lower/take away loot of players when there is more than 1 person involved, you will just end up with players getting annoyed when other players show up (as seen in a lot of other mmorpg's).

More specific in the examples i see here:

You have to look to what happens if you change it.
People now do loot-raids on landscape, and they all get loot.

What happens if you take away the everyone-gets-their-loot option?

The same amount of players are still trying to farm the same area. But instead of helping each other, they just end up griefing/ksing each other, trying to steal as much loot as possible. What's the lesser evil here?

I rather have it possible to "exploit" (get faster loot) with a group than not getting anything because of griefing.
This isn't runescape where you can hop worlds untill you find an empty one.

[Nosdracir]

I think pet aggressive stance should just be removed.

If my toon stands in an area and gets attacked, what happens? I just stand there and die unless I click an attack button. The game doesn't have you automatically defend yourself, presumably so that people don't stand AFK somewhere and hoover up loot unattended.

Yet pets are allowed to circumvent this. Doesn't make sense. I know they want to maintain the convenience of having pets blow stuff up without micromanaging them, but it may not be worth the abuse potential. Or better yet remove the magic multiplication of loot in groups, which would accomplish much the same goal.

I utilize my pet's aggressive stance on bosses that give a speech before they can be attacked. When the boss becomes attackable my pet can strike much faster than my LM. That draws the aggro away from me so I can take an uninterrupted strike or reposition myself. I do not want that taken away from me.