@ Cordovan, Quick question Re: Patch notes

[Amennator]

Arnenna. I am replying 'with quote' as opposed of 'to thread' specifically to catch your attention:

I have friends in this game. Not 'LOTRO Friends' or 'Online Friends', but real, genuine,
bona fide Life Friends. We know each other's stories, we contact each other by phone
and text, we send each other presents - we are friends.

And I am going to keep trying to fight to retain this thing that brought us together, this shared
community of Tolkien Enthusiast Gamers. I am going to keep TRYING to smash some sense into
the people who have the greatest stake in LOTRO - the developers and maintainers of the game.

God knows, it hasn't worked so far. But, I am not Alone. So long as folk like you, Lord.Funk,
Denhith, Hurin, Silmerin, and others continue to pound, and pound, and pound on their door,
shouting our outrage as loudly as we can, there is a chance they will finally hear, and change
their incredibly dense, thick minds, and thus save both their revenue source and our status
as paying customers.

It worked - after years of Trying - with Amazon. They finally decided to rid themselves of
the Fake Reviews that plagued their customers. And for all those years, they kept billing
themselves as 'The World's Most Customer-Centric Business'. What a joke! But through
the constant onslaught of complaints, largely by Book Customers, the fact of what was
happening finally broke through their corporate walls and top-tier ignorance and now they
are weeding and purging the biased, fake reviews almost as fast as they are created.

If it can work with Jeff Bezos and mighty Amazon then it might work with SSG.

So I ask you NOT to abandon the game entirely. And not to stop posting in these fora.
With as much as we have invested - just in monetary terms - over the years, this is our
LOTRO as much as it is the devs. And the thing is, if they would listen to us, their player
base would expand and they would increase the revenue they are Reaching so badly to
acquire. So keep fighting; snap them out of the death spiral. Never give up. Never give in.

It's nice to be optimistic. However, for every 3-4 people that "scream" at them for terrible ideas, they probably have 50 people who go on clueless and shower them with praise. Watch a Lotro stream. "You guys are the best, thanks for waking up today." They're not running a charity and to some degree they should be beholden to paying customers, but it's easy for them to tune out criticism when you have a majority percentage blowing smoke up their butts. Alot of the people that were openly critical, left. When they shutter the game it's only going to be a group of people who will take anything they get to stay in Lotro.

[Tybur]

Huge increase - Great. But much was left unanswered.

Are the Locks for each Tier? - Run any one of them and you are locked out of the remaining ones?

Are Locks inherited?

Always partial answers.

Chest locks are NOT inherited and are specific to a given chest. So for example, opening the Naerband boss 1 chest on tier 1 will give your character personal locks for that single chest. That daily cooldown will not transfer to any other character and will not affect the Naerband boss 1 chest on tier 2, or any other chest. Note that chest locks can be applied either when a boss is defeated and the chest spawns, or when the chest is opened, depending on the logic behind the specific chest. The '/raid locks' command will give cooldown information for every currently locked chest on your character.

The chances of receiving an incomparable piece of gear instead of a rare piece of gear in tier 2 Naerband and tier 2 Seregost was increased.
Independently, the chance of receiving a piece of gear at all from any and all Naerband and Seregost chests (tier 1 and tier 2) was greatly increased.

[Starliteyes]

It's nice to be optimistic. However, for every 3-4 people that "scream" at them for terrible ideas, they probably have 50 people who go on clueless and shower them with praise. Watch a Lotro stream. "You guys are the best, thanks for waking up today." They're not running a charity and to some degree they should be beholden to paying customers, but it's easy for them to tune out criticism when you have a majority percentage blowing smoke up their butts. Alot of the people that were openly critical, left. When they shutter the game it's only going to be a group of people who will take anything they get to stay in Lotro.

If 3-4 people are "screaming", and 50 people are showering them with praise, maybe it's not the 50 people who are clueless...

[Amennator]

If 3-4 people are "screaming", and 50 people are showering them with praise, maybe it's not the 50 people who are clueless...

For starters most of the player base never looks at the forums and is totally unaware of upcoming changes that could affect them. When they release something that ruins the game for them, they just quit. The people who are vocal about their criticisms start being outnumbered by those that would support SSG no matter what they did, and the people that don't care either way. Only listening to praise is the best way to destroy something intended for a mass audience. You can't live in a bubble. Your response is one of the reasons the population started tanking after HD. That microcosm of unabashed worship of all things Turbine didn't do them any favors, and anybody who was critical of their decisions was silenced and derided for having the gall to do so.

[Arnenna]

For starters most of the player base never looks at the forums and is totally unaware of upcoming changes that could affect them. When they release something that ruins the game for them, they just quit. The people who are vocal about their criticisms start being outnumbered by those that would support SSG no matter what they did, and the people that don't care either way. Only listening to praise is the best way to destroy something intended for a mass audience. You can't live in a bubble. Your response is one of the reasons the population started tanking after HD. That microcosm of unabashed worship of all things Turbine didn't do them any favors, and anybody who was critical of their decisions was silenced and derided for having the gall to do so.

It's all in how one puts across their feedback. Usually, if done politely, even if it's a bit relentless, or highly negative (subject matter) nobody takes offense.

Unfortunately, not always the case though. Sometimes people run out with a pointy stick, no matter how civil you try to keep it. Criticism has that effect on some.

[Madmanthief]

I think the point that I'm making, Denhith, is that it may be in the best interest for SSG, if they see that their numbers are dropping. It "may" goad them into changing their policy to some degree.

[SirVile]

It's nice to be optimistic. However, for every 3-4 people that "scream" at them for terrible ideas, they probably have 50 people who go on clueless and shower them with praise. Watch a Lotro stream. "You guys are the best, thanks for waking up today." They're not running a charity and to some degree they should be beholden to paying customers, but it's easy for them to tune out criticism when you have a majority percentage blowing smoke up their butts. Alot of the people that were openly critical, left. When they shutter the game it's only going to be a group of people who will take anything they get to stay in Lotro.

Good points all (although I do feel a bit odd at being characterised as being 'optimistic').

One's real Friends are not people who say only what you want to hear.

One's real Friends are people who tell you what you need to hear.

The fact is simple: LOTRO players love to play LOTRO; when we complain, something is Wrong; if
the Devs change course and correct those Wrong Things, they will make the Players happy again,
thus attracting and retaining more of us to support the game, which in turn supports the Devs.

Give the. People. what they. want.

[SirVile]

If 3-4 people are "screaming", and 50 people are showering them with praise, maybe it's not the 50 people who are clueless...

By that logic, we should all be happy eating nothing but Poo, because 50 trillion Flies can't be wrong!

[Urwendil]

By that logic, we should all be happy eating nothing but Poo, because 50 trillion Flies can't be wrong!

/clap /cheer

[Milii]

Give the. People. what they. want.

WoW did that. Everyone always complaining that that other class is way OP so WoW nerfed one class after another all in the name of 'balance' then they made the mobs easier and easier because it was too hard and pretty soon the game became a complete disaster. They ruined my favorite toons and made everything ez-mode. They catered to idiots and ended up with so many idiots flocking to their game one couldn't find a true tank anywhere, all one could find is people he PL'd up levels as dps, then regeared to all stamina gear (if they regeared at all after respecing) and had no clue as to what 'mitigation' meant.

No, do not always give people what they want. Always be cautious of the complainers.

[Celebrawn]

By that logic, we should all be happy eating nothing but Poo, because 50 trillion Flies can't be wrong!

Clever, but we're not flies, nor do flies play LotRO.

[Amennator]

WoW did that. Everyone always complaining that that other class is way OP so WoW nerfed one class after another all in the name of 'balance' then they made the mobs easier and easier because it was too hard and pretty soon the game became a complete disaster. They ruined my favorite toons and made everything ez-mode. They catered to idiots and ended up with so many idiots flocking to their game one couldn't find a true tank anywhere, all one could find is people he PL'd up levels as dps, then regeared to all stamina gear (if they regeared at all after respecing) and had no clue as to what 'mitigation' meant.

No, do not always give people what they want. Always be cautious of the complainers.

You see anything in this thread that has anything to do with class balance or nerfs to mobs? It seems that anyone who doesn't hold your same views is an idiot. Unfortunately for you those "idiots" probably kept the game going for a lot longer than it would have.

[Arnenna]

WoW did that. Everyone always complaining that that other class is way OP so WoW nerfed one class after another all in the name of 'balance' then they made the mobs easier and easier because it was too hard and pretty soon the game became a complete disaster. They ruined my favorite toons and made everything ez-mode. They catered to idiots and ended up with so many idiots flocking to their game one couldn't find a true tank anywhere, all one could find is people he PL'd up levels as dps, then regeared to all stamina gear (if they regeared at all after respecing) and had no clue as to what 'mitigation' meant.

No, do not always give people what they want. Always be cautious of the complainers.

Yet Wow still has a massive player/fan base.

No, don't always give customers what they want, because sometimes customers want things that are unreasonable. However, when customers are making reasonable requests, then it's a good idea to listen, or at the very least, find a compromise. Always be cautious of the complainers - yes, because those are the ones that didn't just leave when the game stopped giving them what they want, they stuck around and voiced what the problems are. . . .but they still can, and often do leave.

[danno8]

WoW did that. Everyone always complaining that that other class is way OP so WoW nerfed one class after another all in the name of 'balance' then they made the mobs easier and easier because it was too hard and pretty soon the game became a complete disaster. They ruined my favorite toons and made everything ez-mode. They catered to idiots and ended up with so many idiots flocking to their game one couldn't find a true tank anywhere, all one could find is people he PL'd up levels as dps, then regeared to all stamina gear (if they regeared at all after respecing) and had no clue as to what 'mitigation' meant.

No, do not always give people what they want. Always be cautious of the complainers.

The people want a clear means of progression through Mordor that does not result in the mandatory or near-mandatory purchasing of lootboxes through the store, or the requirement to have already pushed a character through Mordor to make it possible to get alts through the same area after the update.

Do you think SSG should listen to the people on this one?

[SirVile]

Clever, but we're not flies, nor do flies play LotRO.

They play it more than the Devs do!

And also, they eat less Poo!

And how do I know that you're not a Fly?

You might think you have fooled me, what with your ability to take off backwards and whatnot,
but I am onto you like a Fly on . . . like a fly on . . . let's just say Rice.

[Lord.Funk]

If 3-4 people are "screaming", and 50 people are showering them with praise, maybe it's not the 50 people who are clueless...

You have obviously missed threads then, both in this forum, as well as in Bullroarer forum. Some threads had like 200 posts in them. Page after page with people not happy. I can assure You that it was not the same 3-4 in each post but alot of different players. I have never seen such an overwhelming majority be against upcoming changes as they have in this latest update. In facts it has been the same 5-6 people that has tried to say all is good. About anything from lootboxes and the other changes, while most (the vast majority of those posting here that is) have acctually been against those things. Last time I saw such a big % of the playerbase dislike something was over Mounted Combat and before that Radiance a while after Moria release until and through Mirkwood. Before it was finally removed. It was alot more players back then but % wise it is similar to how many have been disliking this update and the whole LoE/Ash gear progression system once they realized it will be an insane grind to get any gear of value with all the things being removed, changed and put behind 1-day locks etc, in this update.

And if You think it's just 3-4 players in LoTRO that are not happy about the whole lootbox siutation You muts have been living under a rock for the last few weeks or in a bubble. EA had the most down voted post in Reddits history. Over 600.000 down votes in less than a week. Before that the most disliked comment ever had like 30.000 down votes. Star Wars: Gamblefont II has sold really badly and EA's stocks have now gone down like 6-9%. All because of their lootbox controversy. Disney even called them and told them to remove selling lootboxes for money in-game until further notice and they did. You will find tons of petitions, articles and videos out there to stop lootboxes in games or at least get regulations on them. Like age-restriction of the games containing lootboxes. Gambling license and regular controls to check that the system isn't rigged in games. All to protect consumers as many feel they are being hustled. No way to even know if codes are for example made so that the item Your specific class need has even lesser chance to drop for Your character of that class etc, just to make You buy more lootboxes. It is not too much to ask for to know what is in a product You buy and if a lottery/gamble what the odds (percent) are to get a certain win/pay-out/reward. Even professional gamblers are not stupid enough to not play the odds or to gamble on things where they don't know the odds/percentage. Only easily fooled amateurs do that. There is another controversy surrounding Bungie and Destny 2, where players discovered that the code was even made so that it said they recieved a certain % boost of in-game progression/xp that unlocks in-game ingrems (their version of lootboxes) with things like cosmetics while in reality they did not and had a lower % xp earned after they played a while. It was a scam basically and misleading information basically and Bungie had to apologize and remove that. That is what happens when some corporations gets away unregulated. Happily gamers are good at digging and doing math, spreadsheets and finding such things in the systems. This is not an isolated event that 3-4 players in LoTRO has made up.

Video (just one of many out there, along with articels about it as well): Bungie Just Tried Some Sneaky Business with Destiny 2



Also link to one such petition. This one is specifically for UK Parliament only: https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/201300

I added all that just so that You see this is not just the same 3-4 players in LoTRO that are concerned about all these issues. It's a global thing among gamers now.

Back to LoTRO. Then as Arnenna said. We don't know how many in-game will like or dislike things once they notice the changes, which they might not straight away until they start wondering why they get no more drops or why they can't open the chest in Mordor instances again. Or notice that some things have become bound and can't be sent to their partner, family member or friend.

It's amazing how many don't even read the forums or even the log-in screen. Just today before servers were going down I was in. As the broadcast messages showed up on screen people started going "what ???", "Whats this downtime for, patch, maintenance ???" etc. Not having a clue an update is coming even though it had been announced since friday (or was it saturday) on the log-in screen. Those people never read the log-in screen, even less the forums. Most of the friends I play various games with through the years never post on forums at all. Doesn't matter if it's GW2, STO, SWTOR, Civilization, RIFT or LoTRO. When they see things in-game they don't like, they eventually just stop playing and move on. I have tried to get some more involved, to voice their opinions but most won't. Just as they don't speak up irl but avoid conflicts and rather walk away. I have sat at restraurants with people being served food they said they didn't like and tasted bad. Still when waitress or waiter asks them if it tasted good, they say yes. It's alway easier to just float along than to stand up and state ones real opinion if that opinion is in contradiction with someone. It's considered being negative and a party poop if not just agreeing to everything and with everyone. Most people don't want to be percieved that way, so they just float along and they rather protest in silence by never going to back to that restaurant or stop playing that game. Which in my opinion is a shame, as then the restaurant or game devs can never know what people were not happy with and be given a chance to improve themselves. That is if they listen and want to.

[Macdui]

If 3-4 people are "screaming", and 50 people are showering them with praise, maybe it's not the 50 people who are clueless...

It was the Harvey Weinstein's of this world that relied on those 3-4 not being believed.

Mac

[Starliteyes]

It was the Harvey Weinstein's of this world that relied on those 3-4 not being believed.

Mac

Are you equating not getting what you want in a video game with sexual abuse? Wow, not cool.

[peachy16]

If 3-4 people are "screaming", and 50 people are showering them with praise, maybe it's not the 50 people who are clueless...

ROTFLMAO

Those "50" only care about one thing & that's being able to log into the game to feed there addiction. People like you will continue to keep your blinders on because all that matters is feeding your LOTRO addiction.

[Macdui]

Are you equating not getting what you want in a video game with sexual abuse? Wow, not cool.

It's all about abuse of power over someone without the capacity to defend themselves, it's still an injustice that should be stopped.

Mac

Edit: The thing is it's not about what I want for me, it's what I and others want for the game to be better and not rely on shady practices, just happens that I play Lotro so this is where I make my stand.

[Maricat]

So did they mention anything about the loot table for the boxes being updated then or is this also postponed? (just curios, hate the horrendous things)

[BangoTwinkletoes]

WoW did that. Everyone always complaining that that other class is way OP so WoW nerfed one class after another all in the name of 'balance' then they made the mobs easier and easier because it was too hard and pretty soon the game became a complete disaster. They ruined my favorite toons and made everything ez-mode. They catered to idiots and ended up with so many idiots flocking to their game one couldn't find a true tank anywhere, all one could find is people he PL'd up levels as dps, then regeared to all stamina gear (if they regeared at all after respecing) and had no clue as to what 'mitigation' meant.

No, do not always give people what they want. Always be cautious of the complainers.

Nah. What wow did was clean up the massively broken class imbalance from Vanilla and the ruinous raid attunement path in BC. I'm pretty sure that those who are doing mythic Antorus progression to get the world first will also tell everyone that the raid they are competing to complete is joke easy. But if you were a real vanilla fanatic you would be in a guild on a private progression server getting ready for classic rather than playing on the even-easier-levelling lotro....

[Starliteyes]

ROTFLMAO

Those "50" only care about one thing & that's being able to log into the game to feed there addiction. People like you will continue to keep your blinders on because all that matters is feeding your LOTRO addiction.

Yep!

[Arnenna]

You have obviously missed threads then, both in this forum, as well as in Bullroarer forum. Some threads had like 200 posts in them. Page after page with people not happy. I can assure You that it was not the same 3-4 in each post but alot of different players. I have never seen such an overwhelming majority be against upcoming changes as they have in this latest update. In facts it has been the same 5-6 people that has tried to say all is good. About anything from lootboxes and the other changes, while most (the vast majority of those posting here that is) have acctually been against those things. Last time I saw such a big % of the playerbase dislike something was over Mounted Combat and before that Radiance a while after Moria release until and through Mirkwood. Before it was finally removed. It was alot more players back then but % wise it is similar to how many have been disliking this update and the whole LoE/Ash gear progression system once they realized it will be an insane grind to get any gear of value with all the things being removed, changed and put behind 1-day locks etc, in this update.

And if You think it's just 3-4 players in LoTRO that are not happy about the whole lootbox siutation You muts have been living under a rock for the last few weeks or in a bubble. EA had the most down voted post in Reddits history. Over 600.000 down votes in less than a week. Before that the most disliked comment ever had like 30.000 down votes. Star Wars: Gamblefont II has sold really badly and EA's stocks have now gone down like 6-9%. All because of their lootbox controversy. Disney even called them and told them to remove selling lootboxes for money in-game until further notice and they did. You will find tons of petitions, articles and videos out there to stop lootboxes in games or at least get regulations on them. Like age-restriction of the games containing lootboxes. Gambling license and regular controls to check that the system isn't rigged in games. All to protect consumers as many feel they are being hustled. No way to even know if codes are for example made so that the item Your specific class need has even lesser chance to drop for Your character of that class etc, just to make You buy more lootboxes. It is not too much to ask for to know what is in a product You buy and if a lottery/gamble what the odds (percent) are to get a certain win/pay-out/reward. Even professional gamblers are not stupid enough to not play the odds or to gamble on things where they don't know the odds/percentage. Only easily fooled amateurs do that. There is another controversy surrounding Bungie and Destny 2, where players discovered that the code was even made so that it said they recieved a certain % boost of in-game progression/xp that unlocks in-game ingrems (their version of lootboxes) with things like cosmetics while in reality they did not and had a lower % xp earned after they played a while. It was a scam basically and misleading information basically and Bungie had to apologize and remove that. That is what happens when some corporations gets away unregulated. Happily gamers are good at digging and doing math, spreadsheets and finding such things in the systems. This is not an isolated event that 3-4 players in LoTRO has made up.
(video)

Also link to one such petition. This one is specifically for UK Parliament only: https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/201300

I added all that just so that You see this is not just the same 3-4 players in LoTRO that are concerned about all these issues. It's a global thing among gamers now.

Back to LoTRO. Then as Arnenna said. We don't know how many in-game will like or dislike things once they notice the changes, which they might not straight away until they start wondering why they get no more drops or why they can't open the chest in Mordor instances again. Or notice that some things have become bound and can't be sent to their partner, family member or friend.

It's amazing how many don't even read the forums or even the log-in screen. Just today before servers were going down I was in. As the broadcast messages showed up on screen people started going "what ???", "Whats this downtime for, patch, maintenance ???" etc. Not having a clue an update is coming even though it had been announced since friday (or was it saturday) on the log-in screen. Those people never read the log-in screen, even less the forums. Most of the friends I play various games with through the years never post on forums at all. Doesn't matter if it's GW2, STO, SWTOR, Civilization, RIFT or LoTRO. When they see things in-game they don't like, they eventually just stop playing and move on. I have tried to get some more involved, to voice their opinions but most won't. Just as they don't speak up irl but avoid conflicts and rather walk away. I have sat at restraurants with people being served food they said they didn't like and tasted bad. Still when waitress or waiter asks them if it tasted good, they say yes. It's alway easier to just float along than to stand up and state ones real opinion if that opinion is in contradiction with someone. It's considered being negative and a party poop if not just agreeing to everything and with everyone. Most people don't want to be percieved that way, so they just float along and they rather protest in silence by never going to back to that restaurant or stop playing that game. Which in my opinion is a shame, as then the restaurant or game devs can never know what people were not happy with and be given a chance to improve themselves. That is if they listen and want to.

All very true. Plus, some food for thought. The last time a massive corporation tried to turn LotR into a gambling game, Tolkien Estates took out a lawsuit against them for 80 Million dollars. It lasted five years and ended with WB paying 62 Million in a settlement.

[Silmelin]

It's amazing how many don't even read the forums or even the log-in screen. Just today before servers were going down I was in. As the broadcast messages showed up on screen people started going "what ???", "Whats this downtime for, patch, maintenance ???" etc. Not having a clue an update is coming even though it had been announced since friday (or was it saturday) on the log-in screen. Those people never read the log-in screen, even less the forums. Most of the friends I play various games with through the years never post on forums at all. Doesn't matter if it's GW2, STO, SWTOR, Civilization, RIFT or LoTRO. When they see things in-game they don't like, they eventually just stop playing and move on. I have tried to get some more involved, to voice their opinions but most won't. Just as they don't speak up irl but avoid conflicts and rather walk away. I have sat at restraurants with people being served food they said they didn't like and tasted bad. Still when waitress or waiter asks them if it tasted good, they say yes. It's alway easier to just float along than to stand up and state ones real opinion if that opinion is in contradiction with someone. It's considered being negative and a party poop if not just agreeing to everything and with everyone. Most people don't want to be percieved that way, so they just float along and they rather protest in silence by never going to back to that restaurant or stop playing that game. Which in my opinion is a shame, as then the restaurant or game devs can never know what people were not happy with and be given a chance to improve themselves. That is if they listen and want to.

This is so true. Most people I know never complain ever, they just stop playing and go somewhere else. I'm almost the same, I never complain about annoyances and such, so if you see me complaining on the forums it must be something that is a game breaker for me and probably for many of my silent friends as well. Also, this is the only game where I have done more than just lurk on a game forum for information.

When I go all out on the forums like I have done these last few months it's because I'm a very loyal person when it comes to games and I'm trying my best to stay but something has happened that is forcing me away. I love LOTRO and want to give SSG my money, and if they add things that aren't for me, that's fine too or course, but when everything I care about gets taken away there is only two choices: Leave or explain how I feel in the hopes that they will understand how they could have added to the game as they promised without taking anything away. Normally I would choose to leave silently, and the only reason I'm putting my feelings (about my characters after avatar revamp) out there for cruel people to laugh at is because I love LOTRO dearly and I'm hoping that SSG will listen and go back to welcoming people like me



About the gambling/lootbox thing: I remember hearing on the news that one of those poker sites had been caught having their poker game programmed to control how, when and how much people would win. To let people win a lil now and again, in such a way that they would keep gambling. So the company got in trouble since they didn't let the poker games be people playing against people or even completely random. They were tricking people and the code decided if and when and how much you'd win. This is why regulation is a good thing.