Cord of the Rings May 4th

[Macdui]

It amused me to see the first couple of minutes of the stream advertising for LOTRO PAY in chat. The rest of us have to report harassment and bugs. 53 levels and never customised the chat windows?

Mention of the class work was made but where the hell are the devs/engineers on the forums or are they making it up again? If it's going to be the woeful "Dev" Interview after the event it isn't good enough.

SSG:
Lets have your plans before you're too far along so we can avoid the spurious assumptions again, eg Guard's as DPS Kings. It's the player's cash you waste if you get it wrong, tell us your plans. We know you will never fix it afterwards so please tell us your plans. If your aren't confident with what you are doing, don't do it. Pass it by the people who push their class to the limit.



Please don't flood the game with people on hobbyhorses.

Mac

Edit: Druid's comment about Cord vendoring food she'd sent. If you have no concept of what it takes to craft items in Lotro you cannot appreciate the value of such things. Continuing to gift him everything means you only deny him understanding of such things. It's bad enough that the account he has provides limitless LP/MC, doesn't have to budget to play the game, isn't held back from playing/paying for stuff because his furnace needs replacing etc.

[Cordovan]

It's true that I don't use my chat windows much, so yeah, I don't really customize them. When I'm not doing admin stuff, they are largely invisible to me.

You are correct that the accidental deletion of the food items was a poor life choice. I apologized for it.

On class work: We are aiming to have a Bullroarer preview soon (perhaps this week) to give people a deeper look at what we are working on, and to gather feedback on it.

[Macdui]

You used to have it hidden by your face cam.

One can spend a good few hours making consumables, armour, jewels and weapons for a levelling character. Druidsfire wants your patronage or friendship so is obviously mostly happy to do this. Others will say it's not necessary as the game at that level is easy mode. I just don't want you to ignore crafting. I want our CM to understand our craft woes through experience not from asking Tybur or FriendlyHat (who I wonder has even played crafters).

BR is way too late if your have made wild assumptions as you (Turbine) have done before. Did no one have the confidence to put their case for the changes before us, before starting coding? Mostly I'm concerned with the guardian dps line tragedy since EdgeCase days. What a waste of resources just to leave it broken for years.

That the majority of changes are buffs implies a token effort to appease rather than deal with actual balance and certain classes being far from first choice for a group. I hope I'm wrong.

I still have my bleed damage legacy on my LI, how is it that in practice it's like I'm cauterising and bandaging the mob's wounds as I go?

Mac

[Wagoo]

If Doc Ock's (Dr.Octothorpe) dev cycle post from awhile back remains true, the folks on the Palantir test server have probably already voiced how they want the changes to work at least.

[Arnenna]

On class work: We are aiming to have a Bullroarer preview soon (perhaps this week) to give people a deeper look at what we are working on, and to gather feedback on it.

I'll look forward to that then, as some folk are wondering what you're using as the focus for the changes. All we seem to see on the forums is how champs are useless, guards are broken and beornings need attention. While those things are certainly true, I'm hoping that the team haven't gone all knee-jerk on it and completely dug up the playing field.

[Altair6]

They've already said, on more than one occasion, that they are intending to use Hunter and RK damage as baseline.

[siipperi]

They've already said, on more than one occasion, that they are intending to use Hunter and RK damage as baseline.

And even if they would nerf damage of those classes it would be just good for the game. Both deserve good 15-20% DPS nerfs.

[Macdui]

Watching some other youtube vid I had, among others, the Tybur Anniversary stream pop up.

Expecting a lot of QA talk I was surprised to hear she is now in systems development and gave us the lowdown on the class work they are all doing for the next update. I missed the live stream (time zones).

Yikes, they only play 7 of the 10 classes in systems. Where the rest of us get our understanding of balance (PvE) is how several classes we play compare in the same environment. If you don't play multiple classes how can you make that comparison?

Maybe I miss heard and they all each play 7 out of the 10 classes, like many of us, and can make the calls.

Sounds like you've hired a shy addition to QA. How on earth do get so many shy people through the interview process? Come and post in the class forums, we would really like to hear the plans.

I would have to agree that Blue Hunter is one of the most complete classes I play. Only over barrage and focus build cut-off are the issues that I'd like to know are intended or not.

Mac

[Silmelin]

It's true that I don't use my chat windows much, so yeah, I don't really customize them. When I'm not doing admin stuff, they are largely invisible to me.

You are correct that the accidental deletion of the food items was a poor life choice. I apologized for it.

On class work: We are aiming to have a Bullroarer preview soon (perhaps this week) to give people a deeper look at what we are working on, and to gather feedback on it.

Hello Cordovan! I was wondering if you could ask the people who are working on Avatar updates to please take a look at male elves as soon as possible? The U22 beta 1 looked fantastic and only had two heads with visual bugs, but somehow they all ended up with problems before going Live, and the two heads I mentioned previously now have even worse visual bugs.

I'm sorry for jumping in here with my question, but I have tried visiting your livestream to mention this but my browsers can't seem to handle livestreaming anymore, they just crash before I can write anything in the livestream chat window.

Anyway, I would really appreciate the problems being ironed out as soon as they get an opportunity to look it over, it's almost summer and with that comes many larger player events, and it's hard to be social when your look gets negative reactions from those around you

[Druidsfire]

Edit: Druid's comment about Cord vendoring food she'd sent. If you have no concept of what it takes to craft items in Lotro you cannot appreciate the value of such things. Continuing to gift him everything means you only deny him understanding of such things. It's bad enough that the account he has provides limitless LP/MC, doesn't have to budget to play the game, isn't held back from playing/paying for stuff because his furnace needs replacing etc.

If I was honestly upset about the vendoring, I wouldn't have teased him about it (more than once) on the livestream. The lowbie food items weren't any kind of burden to create and in fact helped me lessen the amount of stuff in my own inventory. Had it been cyans created with super-rare stuff (or things like a FA LI), eh, I wouldn't bring it up on-stream, I would have had a private conversation about it. Punish in private, praise in public, troll your friends. I'm not gonna get my delicates in a twist about lowbie food stacks created for the sole purpose of completing a title-granting deed that was appropriate to the giftee.

As for using me and my furnace's replacement as ammo in your argument, please don't again. Your 'concern' for me is certainly misplaced, as I'm a lifer and my LotRO gametime was never in jeopardy, as I never have to budget for it. If you wish to present a hypothetical argument about a regular player put out by an accident, please use yourself as the example player and cite how /you/ would feel or the limitations that would upset you.

One can spend a good few hours making consumables, armour, jewels and weapons for a levelling character. Druidsfire wants your patronage or friendship so is obviously mostly happy to do this. Others will say it's not necessary as the game at that level is easy mode. I just don't want you to ignore crafting. I want our CM to understand our craft woes through experience not from asking Tybur or FriendlyHat (who I wonder has even played crafters).

Since we've never had a conversation about these matters before, nor have I spoken of it on a stream (official or my own), I would respectfully suggest that it is most unwise to speak for me and/or say what I want out of it. I would further respectfully suggest you would do better if you asked first instead of assuming.

Finally, as for your 'don't give him stuff, he won't learn that way' argument... well, I can't honestly imagine how knowing in-depth mechanics of the Ultimate Carrot Cake recipe will help anyone understand the high-end crafting pain you're referencing. That being said, crafting is in my lesson plan, and it's simply a matter of finding the time to go over things.

Thank you for your concern.

[Arnenna]

They've already said, on more than one occasion, that they are intending to use Hunter and RK damage as baseline.

Yes, this, most people already know, but it's not what I meant. Look what happened when they did a balance pass/fix on hunter for example . . . they changed the class so drastically, it involved a change of trait line for almost all players using the class and changed hunter from one thing, into something else. I'm kinda hoping the upcoming balance pass will improve classes this time, not change how they are played.

[siipperi]

Yes, this, most people already know, but it's not what I meant. Look what happened when they did a balance pass/fix on hunter for example . . . they changed the class so drastically, it involved a change of trait line for almost all players using the class and changed hunter from one thing, into something else. I'm kinda hoping the upcoming balance pass will improve classes this time, not change how they are played.

Whats wrong in changing how classes play? Nothing, that would be extremely narrow minded thinking by devs if they though there was no room to change how classes work/play. That used to be a thing pretty much on yearly basis for first 4 years of this game. If something is bad/boring it needs to go and fresh new ideas implemented.

[Macdui]

Whats wrong in changing how classes play? Nothing, that would be extremely narrow minded thinking by devs if they though there was no room to change how classes work/play. That used to be a thing pretty much on yearly basis for first 4 years of this game. If something is bad/boring it needs to go and fresh new ideas implemented.

Well 2 bowmaster hunter friends gave up playing, maybe the last straw. One was a lefty and never got the kite/move mechanic. I was playing blue well before the change.

At the other end I'm sure there's a good few who are oblivious and still play bowmaster and may or may not notice doing more damage after the changes.

Another issue was things like a legacy associated with one tree become relevant in another and requiring legacy replacement scrolls from the store, to pay for the changes? Or just an accidental choice? If you have multiple classes and want to make the best of them you can wait for the definitive post or wiki to tell you what "the" spec is now or you might have to commit not insignificant resources to figure out what suits you best.

If other trees become viable and suit you game play finally, it might mean lots of LI builds needing work.

With the step changes hinted at who knows how many legacies will gain or loose relevance during the process. These things seem not to be on their radar historically.

Mac

[Arnenna]

Whats wrong in changing how classes play? Nothing, that would be extremely narrow minded thinking by devs if they though there was no room to change how classes work/play. That used to be a thing pretty much on yearly basis for first 4 years of this game. If something is bad/boring it needs to go and fresh new ideas implemented.

New and fresh is ok. Making all but a few skills on a whole trait line redundant - not so much, unless of course you think run, barrage, barrage, penshot, blood arrow, barrage is a fresh and exciting form of game play.

[Joetzim]

Classes is not what they should be working on. The game feels so extremely dated. Static, recycled voices, recycled buildings, stiff character models... who the #### cares if class balance is not perfect.

[siipperi]

Well 2 bowmaster hunter friends gave up playing, maybe the last straw. One was a lefty and never got the kite/move mechanic. I was playing blue well before the change.

At the other end I'm sure there's a good few who are oblivious and still play bowmaster and may or may not notice doing more damage after the changes.

Another issue was things like a legacy associated with one tree become relevant in another and requiring legacy replacement scrolls from the store, to pay for the changes? Or just an accidental choice? If you have multiple classes and want to make the best of them you can wait for the definitive post or wiki to tell you what "the" spec is now or you might have to commit not insignificant resources to figure out what suits you best.

If other trees become viable and suit you game play finally, it might mean lots of LI builds needing work.

With the step changes hinted at who knows how many legacies will gain or loose relevance during the process. These things seem not to be on their radar historically.

Mac

Thing is red line is so strong that unless you are T2CM raider one can play in red line all they like, no problems. Red line is even arguably stronger for signature hunting in landscape with weak gear. It's on you if you don't have LIs for trait lines you like to play. There is no excuses for that. You build LIs for line you want to play with. Every reasonable RK for example has 6 sets of LIs. And if you not into raiding you can totally make hybrid weapons as a hunter, which rises point whats reason to complain here as a hunter? They have possible the easiest job regarding LIs. (you as anyone who plays hunter)

New and fresh is ok. Making all but a few skills on a whole trait line redundant - not so much, unless of course you think run, barrage, barrage, penshot, blood arrow, barrage is a fresh and exciting form of game play.

Well of course blue line hunter is not like that or DPS would be abysmal because you need to wait for focus to tier up on its own. In reality you use good 6-7 skills as part of your damaging skill rotation + few others to buff damage. Hunter have never been much more complex than that. In red line it would be mostly quick shot and pen shot instead of barrage and pen shot. People who think using all skills as part of rotation usually do not know the meta rotation of the class which is for example seen on FIs where half of red RKs used lightning skills in middle of their DPS rotation. Certain skills always get prioritized over other skills and it's always been like that. Players who use every single skill usually just live in sweet ignorance about these matters, which can be enjoyable for them and nothing wrong with that. For example Cordovan does head put on his dwarf minstrel, is it optimal? No but it's funny looking so why not... Unless ones a raider none of these things matter.

Classes is not what they should be working on. The game feels so extremely dated. Static, recycled voices, recycled buildings, stiff character models... who the #### cares if class balance is not perfect.

They should absolutely be working on classes. Those are the biggest problem with this game on top of the lack of end game content. You can't have good game experience where guardian does 4x less damage than hunter, while having less survivability in landscape 1v1 fights, due to guardian forced to fight melee while hunter does not take hits.

[Flooz]

Every reasonable RK for example has 6 sets of LIs.

*choke* Us casual players are the reasonable ones and I opine that few have more than one set of LIs for any of their classes. 6 sets is highly unreasonable!

[Arnenna]

Thing is red line is so strong that unless you are T2CM raider one can play in red line all they like, no problems. Red line is even arguably stronger for signature hunting in landscape with weak gear. It's on you if you don't have LIs for trait lines you like to play. There is no excuses for that. You build LIs for line you want to play with. Every reasonable RK for example has 6 sets of LIs. And if you not into raiding you can totally make hybrid weapons as a hunter, which rises point whats reason to complain here as a hunter? They have possible the easiest job regarding LIs. (you as anyone who plays hunter)





Well of course blue line hunter is not like that or DPS would be abysmal because you need to wait for focus to tier up on its own. In reality you use good 6-7 skills as part of your damaging skill rotation + few others to buff damage. Hunter have never been much more complex than that. In red line it would be mostly quick shot and pen shot instead of barrage and pen shot. People who think using all skills as part of rotation usually do not know the meta rotation of the class which is for example seen on FIs where half of red RKs used lightning skills in middle of their DPS rotation. Certain skills always get prioritized over other skills and it's always been like that. Players who use every single skill usually just live in sweet ignorance about these matters, which can be enjoyable for them and nothing wrong with that. For example Cordovan does head put on his dwarf minstrel, is it optimal? No but it's funny looking so why not... Unless ones a raider none of these things matter.



They should absolutely be working on classes. Those are the biggest problem with this game on top of the lack of end game content. You can't have good game experience where guardian does 4x less damage than hunter, while having less survivability in landscape 1v1 fights, due to guardian forced to fight melee while hunter does not take hits.

Redline is perfectly fine for landscape yes, as is nearly every trait line for every class. People wanted tougher landscape where one shotting was not the norm - and we got it, but still, all classes can cope with landscape easily enough. Redline is pretty useless in a raid set up, because blueline has a much better dps.

On to blueline, focus is built up via rotation and movement. When traited correctly, Precision trait at rank 2 grants 3 focus per 5 seconds. Hunters aren't often standing around waiting for focus. they do however, sometimes run out of power now.

Sure, hunter kills faster than a guard, but to bring your own words back to you - that has always been the case. I don't know why you think a guardian has less survivability than a hunter just because they are in melee though, my guard sure can't kill like my hunter can, but nothing in a landscape 1v1 fight can kill her either. Guards are melee classes, hunters are ranged, and it's always been that way.

[TiberiasKirk]

Redline is perfectly fine for landscape yes, as is nearly every trait line for every class. People wanted tougher landscape where one shotting was not the norm - and we got it, but still, all classes can cope with landscape easily enough. Redline is pretty useless in a raid set up, because blueline has a much better dps.

On to blueline, focus is built up via rotation and movement. When traited correctly, Precision trait at rank 2 grants 3 focus per 5 seconds. Hunters aren't often standing around waiting for focus. they do however, sometimes run out of power now.

Sure, hunter kills faster than a guard, but to bring your own words back to you - that has always been the case. I don't know why you think a guardian has less survivability than a hunter just because they are in melee though, my guard sure can't kill like my hunter can, but nothing in a landscape 1v1 fight can kill her either. Guards are melee classes, hunters are ranged, and it's always been that way.

Not sure what he is referring to as a survival problem for Guardians on the landscape. Even though hunters are better at killing single targets, I can make up for it by just getting a lot of stuff on my Guard and shield smashing it all at down once. I think he knows all that as he quotes some of the highest crit numbers for shield smash I have certainly ever heard of. I wonder if his Guard has a power problem?
So I don't feel like i'm so much slower at killing things on the landscape when it comes to getting slayer deeds done and I certainly never come close to dying while doing them.

[Valamar]

. . . which rises point whats reason to complain here as a hunter?

Hunters "really" need self heals . . .

Been playing one since 2007 as a Founder/Lifetimer. It is always a challenge to see how play-style has to change everytime another "balance pass" takes place.

[Macdui]

Druidsfire


You can have a private word with him. Most of us don't get the chance unless we fit a certain fan base. I'm glad crafting is on your radar, but Cordovan recently stated it was his intention not to craft. Giving him inconsequential consumables and gear still won't teach him values. Who else is filling up his mailbox? To an extent crafting has lost some of it's use, several people rejected the idea that it was much use in Mordor in another thread. Then we arrived in Northern Mirkwood and lesser crafters are complaining when recipes aren't available to their profession and SSG use archaic justifications for it. Who knows if the next update has a kickass crafted 4th LI relic and the forums will be alive with those who gave up on guilded crafting, or is there one in the store that I don't know about?

For me crafting has always been an important part of the game and Mordor provided us with a new tier that is littered with inconsistencies and I wonder if you are the person to see them and highlight the issues to our CM and beyond. My PMs have not garnered a reply so I use the forums. I'd rather have everything in the open anyway.

I could list my issues with tier 11 but as everything has to be on video or it's nothing these days:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJY9lcXbus4

Since making the video some changes have been made and additional recipes have come along to supersede those of before. Few actual fixes where made and many inconsistencies were replicated in newer recipes. I'm inclined to think they would rather not know, or have to comment, when there's no budget to fix. I'm more concerned that things aren't handled any better the next time.

I have watched several hours of your videos and those of other official streamers. That experience was a motivation to make some lotro videos myself. Frankly I was embarrassed for the game I play that all but a few walked into Mordor and were utterly bemused how to play there without help. I can only comment on what I see. I did try and reach out on a twitch comment some while ago when I couldn't see a Feign Death icon on one of your minstrel's hot bars. Someone messaged me that I'd have to go to your own channel for comments to be seen yet it was supposed to be an official Lotro stream. I don't tend to see the live streams, I don't sub/follow. I don't want to follow individuals and find you guys playing some other game, Zonflux, I mean you. I don't blame him, too much. Sadly solo Guardian streamers have a hard time putting the class in a good light for the audience.

Hats off to Chromite for his efforts with Stine and all. I'd rather see the likes of a Chromite take our CM under his wing towards endgame though.

Mac

[Arnenna]

Hunters "really" need self heals . . .

Been playing one since 2007 as a Founder/Lifetimer. It is always a challenge to see how play-style has to change everytime another "balance pass" takes place.

I'm not even sure who was complaining here as a hunter. My concern is that they may do to other classes, what they did to hunter. Hunter had real poor dps compared with RK for a very long time, so much so, hunters couldn't compete, then they changed it, rather than fix it.

[siipperi]

Not sure what he is referring to as a survival problem for Guardians on the landscape. Even though hunters are better at killing single targets, I can make up for it by just getting a lot of stuff on my Guard and shield smashing it all at down once. I think he knows all that as he quotes some of the highest crit numbers for shield smash I have certainly ever heard of. I wonder if his Guard has a power problem?
So I don't feel like i'm so much slower at killing things on the landscape when it comes to getting slayer deeds done.

Than hunter? I don't even have best possible gear:



It even tiers higher than that. Non crit just about half of morale pool of mob.

Meanwhile stuff like swift bow + upshot combo hits 100k + 115k. Sorry but there is just no contest. Only time I get hit as a hunter is when I pull several mobs and they are ranged. Otherwise it's 1-3 hits depending if I need to use builder in between. Guardian isn't even close. Just building shield smash takes like 6-7 seconds and you still hit like 2/3rd of what hunter hits lol. Killing opponent fast is just as important to survivability as are skills to boost it.

[Arnenna]

Than hunter? I don't even have best possible gear:



It even tiers higher than that. Non crit just about half of morale pool of mob.

Meanwhile stuff like swift bow + upshot combo hits 100k + 115k. Sorry but there is just no contest. Only time I get hit as a hunter is when I pull several mobs and they are ranged. Otherwise it's 1-3 hits depending if I need to use builder in between. Guardian isn't even close. Just building shield smash takes like 6-7 seconds and you still hit like 2/3rd of what hunter hits lol.

So, you want your guard, to hit like a hunter? Got it. This is exactly what I meant when I said " I'm hoping that the team haven't gone all knee-jerk on it and completely dug up the playing field".

Guardians should never hit like hunters can - not even close. They are not a dps class. Hunters should never heal like a minstrel can either, because, they're not a healing class.

By the way, my hunter can reach higher numbers than that . . . but it's not all the time or anywhere near all the time. I hope the devs are aware of that. Anyone can bring in a couple of one-off high crit figures in here for any class, but it doesn't mean it's the norm.

[siipperi]

So, you want your guard, to hit like a hunter? Got it. This is exactly what I meant when I said " I'm hoping that the team haven't gone all knee-jerk on it and completely dug up the playing field".

Guardians should never hit like hunters can - not even close. They are not a dps class. Hunters should never heal like a minstrel can either, because, they're not a healing class.

No, but there is nothing wrong in good guardian over DPSing 80% of hunters on the server. Every class should be within 40-50% of each others in terms of DPS and DPS classes within 5-15% of each others. If some players can't do proper rotation other classes that are properly played should outperform them.