Cord of the Rings May 4th

[Joedangod]

What's "funny" is that you quote me but snip out the very point that I was making, which was that people like that certain classes have distinct roles.

And that's why all popular MMO's have stuck to the single class for a single role philosophy. No wait, my bad; every high profile MMO on the market works with a variety of classes and each class being able to perform a variety of roles. Make all the unsubstantiated claims about people liking single role class structures you like, it won't convince anyone.

Let me make this very clear to you: I have not, and never will, advocate for Hunters to be nerfed into obscurity. I am simply insisting that the ignored and broken traitlines get to have some fun. If we were holding this discussion in a pre-U19 timeframe I would be advocating for Hunters to be buffed with the rest (albeit not advocating for the short-sighted buff they actually got).

[Arnenna]

And that's why all popular MMO's have stuck to the single class for a single role philosophy. No wait, my bad; every high profile MMO on the market works with a variety of classes and each class being able to perform a variety of roles. Make all the unsubstantiated claims about people liking single role class structures you like, it won't convince anyone.

Let me make this very clear to you: I have not, and never will, advocate for Hunters to be nerfed into obscurity. I am simply insisting that the ignored and broken traitlines get to have some fun. If we were holding this discussion in a pre-U19 timeframe I would be advocating for Hunters to be buffed with the rest (albeit not advocating for the short-sighted buff they actually got).

"every high profile MMO on the market works with a variety of classes and each class being able to perform a variety of roles."

I'm under the impression that they are making small changes to classes to find balance, not carrying out class revamps. Given that hunters only role is dps, I'm not sure they can reach your demand without a revamp of the class, so all classes performing a variety of roles won't happen, unless they're thinking of making hunters CC like a LM or AoE like a champ. if you think giving hunter the ability to play like a Lore Master will make hunters actually play like Lore Masters, I think you (and the team) are in for a bit of a shock. Players that wish to play like a Lore Master, play a Lore Master. Likewise, people that wish to play like a hunter, play a hunter. It's the reason why we have different classes - they each do different things.

Also, every high profile MMO on the market work with subscription only models, which most likely contributes quite generously to their success and longevity. LOTRO is easy to walk away from, for quite a few players, if they get this wrong. We've seen mass exodus before with extreme changes.

[siipperi]

"every high profile MMO on the market works with a variety of classes and each class being able to perform a variety of roles."

I'm under the impression that they are making small changes to classes to find balance, not carrying out class revamps. Given that hunters only role is dps, I'm not sure they can reach your demand without a revamp of the class, so all classes performing a variety of roles won't happen, unless they're thinking of making hunters CC like a LM or AoE like a champ. if you think giving hunter the ability to play like a Lore Master will make hunters actually play like Lore Masters, I think you (and the team) are in for a bit of a shock. Players that wish to play like a Lore Master, play a Lore Master. Likewise, people that wish to play like a hunter, play a hunter. It's the reason why we have different classes - they each do different things.

Also, every high profile MMO on the market work with subscription only models, which most likely contributes quite generously to their success and longevity. LOTRO is easy to walk away from, for quite a few players, if they get this wrong. We've seen mass exodus before with extreme changes.

Hunters do quite good aoe already. 3rd highest about same as LM, not far off from RK on some fights beat rk so difference is not really that big. Sure cc could be like LMs and nobody would be in shock that does not mean they would be like LMs.

[Ferathyr]

In every other game I have played since UO where dps/healing numbers have been used to justify calls for nerfs and buffs it has led to homogenisation of classes. You might as well bin the different classes and go for:

Tank Class, Ranged DPS Class, Melee DPS Class and Healer.

People need to get their heads out of DPS meters. As long as players are putting the same amount of effort in and are not being carried so what if class X does 10% more DPS than class Y in instances as long as the bosses drop then all is good. On landscape mobs the difference between classes is even less relevant.

[Joedangod]

In every other game I have played since UO where dps/healing numbers have been used to justify calls for nerfs and buffs it has led to homogenisation of classes. You might as well bin the different classes and go for:

Tank Class, Ranged DPS Class, Melee DPS Class and Healer.

That doesn't follow at all. Everyone has a favourite traitline/playstyle and everyone wants to be competitive with that traitline/playstyle. That doesn't lead to homogenisation, that leads to variety. Hypothetically if Guardians were to suddenly have redline work as a competitive AoE DPS line and Champions had blue buffed to be a competitive tank line they wouldn't be the exact same class. One would be a bursty positional focused AoE DPS whilst the other would operate as a bleed spreading DoT DPS. Both would have tank traitlines but those traitlines operate in different ways, one more offensive, one more defensive. Offering people variety isn't a bad thing and it certainly doesn't result in homogenisation.

People need to get their heads out of DPS meters. As long as players are putting the same amount of effort in and are not being carried so what if class X does 10% more DPS than class Y in instances as long as the bosses drop then all is good. On landscape mobs the difference between classes is even less relevant.

The difference between classes is not 10%, some classes deal 250%+ the damage of other classes. Some tanks take 100%+ more damage than other tanks. The difference between classes is big enough that if you take certain classes the boss almost certainly won't drop before you do. That is the problem.

[WorrBinpike]

If they nerf Hunters AND runekeepers i would like to see someone doing the AOM Bosses (T2) in the given time frame, especially in HM.

Hunters do not need a nerf.

I can go out and shoot 100 times and post the max dps, and you could all cry to nerf hunter.

But what you don't read here is the other trys where it just dont crit and you need 5-6 barrage hits to beat a 80k mob. Hunters don't one shot all Mobs in landscape on level.

Wasn't it Cordovan who said, 98% of balancing will get buffs, only 2% nerfs ? I really hope they let barrage as it is.

And btw. if the ministrel gets a huge DPS increase, can my hunter please get a nice group heal ? If the tank gets a huge damage increase, can huntes get a skill to tank 20 Mobs at all ? Or how about some nice 30% Debuffs for bosses for the hunter, if the loremasters get nice single DPS damage.

[Macdui]

In my mind the old raids were mostly a matter establishing control of the fight. You'd have your avoidance tanks stance dancing as the need arose (me and Stripes back in the day could agro swap with matched builds and just one threat skill in or out of the same rotation to switch). The leader would make calls to switch target or slow the dps to reach the next phase. CC would have their assigned targets taken care of. All about the control, some finesse if you like.

And then DPS race strats came into play that could circumvent the mechanics of fights (acid wing) followed by Turbine starting to put berserk timers into fights and necessitating groups to maximise their DPS and "put their head into the DPS meters". Tanks had to maximise morale now as attacks tended to bypass avoidances, at least with the loss of the old ID mechanism your morale was the standout stat to see if you were raid material. Being build like a brick Sh"thouse and easy to heal seemed not to matter with spam bolsters in play now. And as morale/vitality tanks became the norm the bosses were given the hits to match so an avoidance build could not work or were perceived not to work.

Now there's talk of reducing those heals but does that mean an avoidance tank will be possible? Something forced the morale tank into play, if it wasn't the group healing and the Bosses' capacity for big hits what was it?

I'm kind of guessing to the state of the current raids. HD and dumping the threat mechanics ruined raiding for me. Although I like to think I always have 4 raid ready chars waiting to go if things change. Too jaded perhaps to give them another go and maybe satisfied for the first kill memories I already have. Do the more recent raid bosses instil the same thrill that first time Thurlach went down or the relief that you finally got Shadow done and could finally face Saruman?

In a way I prefer that most classes have a specific strong build that's required for group play. Everyone knows where they stand and can rely that all have their role and the build to do it. Once you start introducing "newer" classes and alternative builds you introduce doubt and players loose focus on what they are doing to see what this maverick is up to. I'm not sure that many raid leaders will have the capacity to embrace too many new builds in their group selection, not until they have proved themselves and possibly become the required spec and so have all players of that class step up to be included.

So we'll re-gig our LIs, maybe make another couple to fit the revamped tree. Some will grind, or will have grinded, the resources. Some will visit the store to pay for the changes.


Mac

[Joedangod]

And btw. if the ministrel gets a huge DPS increase, can my hunter please get a nice group heal ? If the tank gets a huge damage increase, can huntes get a skill to tank 20 Mobs at all ? Or how about some nice 30% Debuffs for bosses for the hunter, if the loremasters get nice single DPS damage.

What's with all this absurdity?

Traitlines are pretty much separate things from classes. You can only really run one traitline at a time. It's not tanks who should be getting a huge damage increase, it's the redline Guardians and redline Beornings who should be getting a DPS increase so they can actually do some DPS.

[WorrBinpike]

My post was exaggerated, but the balancing should have in mind that all classes have their roles.

Sure, they can increase the Redlines on all classes for landscape, but loremaster for example are more worth with yellow in a raid. And yellow means, no damage.

I'm really afraid of the balancing, at least i hope that all classes get some love (expecially wardens and beornings), except that runekeepers and hunters doing enough damage.

[BotLike]

If they nerf Hunters AND runekeepers i would like to see someone doing the AOM Bosses (T2) in the given time frame, especially in HM.

Hunters do not need a nerf.

I can go out and shoot 100 times and post the max dps, and you could all cry to nerf hunter.

But what you don't read here is the other trys where it just dont crit and you need 5-6 barrage hits to beat a 80k mob. Hunters don't one shot all Mobs in landscape on level.

Wasn't it Cordovan who said, 98% of balancing will get buffs, only 2% nerfs ? I really hope they let barrage as it is.

And btw. if the ministrel gets a huge DPS increase, can my hunter please get a nice group heal ? If the tank gets a huge damage increase, can huntes get a skill to tank 20 Mobs at all ? Or how about some nice 30% Debuffs for bosses for the hunter, if the loremasters get nice single DPS damage.

This gives a pretty good idea of what is going to follow when it comes to '''''feedback'''''' , starting this weekend.
Tbh the fact Cordovan said they will mostly buff is the most worrying of all.

Heals and dps on the most common classes in this game need a nerf across the board. ( RK , hunter , minstrel etc )
Mordor launch was alright , but now with the updated gear and the new runes one shots and faceroll are back to the menu on most classes if you know how to build your char. Even in raids bosses die way too fast , the only thing that seems to be in fairly decent spot is their outgoing damage.

I am honestly hoping for nerfs across the board more than boosts.

The most important part is bug fixing the trait trees across all classes , they've been in this mess for years , then go from there and not boost everything , throw 3-4 nerfs to call it balance and move on.........
This won't change the game towards the better , more like the opposite.

Learn to bug fix please , it's about time , and if you can't , simply rework the bugged skills.

[Macdui]

Regarding the hunter AE morale heal. There always used to be one.

The scene:
Tank at the ready for the call to pull. Has his (and off-tank's) target tooltips up. Leader counts us down and a target site lights up on the biggest mob in the room (old threat mechanics in play).
...
Hunter looses all credibility and heals and looses all their own morale.

The morale of the other eleven players goes up significantly.

Sadly they lost group heals when tanks could just hit a threat copy +700% skill to make that once insane pull a legitimate tactic.


Mac

[Joedangod]

My post was exaggerated, but the balancing should have in mind that all classes have their roles.

And each traitline has a role. Hopefully balance work will allow them to actually do that role without being totally ignored/scorned for not playing the class/traitline that is head and shoulders above everything else.

[wispsong]

This gives a pretty good idea of what is going to follow when it comes to '''''feedback'''''' , starting this weekend.
Tbh the fact Cordovan said they will mostly buff is the most worrying of all.

Heals and dps on the most common classes in this game need a nerf across the board. ( RK , hunter , minstrel etc )
Mordor launch was alright , but now with the updated gear and the new runes one shots and faceroll are back to the menu on most classes if you know how to build your char. Even in raids bosses die way too fast , the only thing that seems to be in fairly decent spot is their outgoing damage.

I am honestly hoping for nerfs across the board more than boosts.

The most important part is bug fixing the trait trees across all classes , they've been in this mess for years , then go from there and not boost everything , throw 3-4 nerfs to call it balance and move on.........
This won't change the game towards the better , more like the opposite.

Learn to bug fix please , it's about time , and if you can't , simply rework the bugged skills.

So you would require for every landscape player to know every detail about their spec like a raider? Landscape has not become face roll through better gear to me. Hunter is just right with dps to make it fun. I still can't see where RK has so much better dps. I struggle to keep mine alive in Mordor and since she can't finish the solo only in Naerband she is benched. Maybe she needs that relic that drops in instances to get there but without it she is worse then my LM. Your "if they know how to build their character" says it all. Basically, in your opinion, players that don't shouldn't be able to play through new content having fun. Maybe those who find Mordor/N Mirkwood face roll should just take off the better gear and give it to those who struggle.

[Arnenna]

Hunters do quite good aoe already. 3rd highest about same as LM, not far off from RK on some fights beat rk so difference is not really that big. Sure cc could be like LMs and nobody would be in shock that does not mean they would be like LMs.

Please. Hunter has two decent AoE skills. Rain of arrows for up to 10 targets if you trait 15 ranks into bowmaster to obtain the small crit chances. Split shot, can hit up to 5 targets if fully traited in huntsman. There is also rain of thorns, deep in the yellow tree, but to get that, one of the others has to go if hunter wants to do any decent amount of damage, plus, it's more of a root skill than a damage skill.

You wish champs to have a single target ability pretty close to hunters, and you want guardians to have a damage output pretty close to hunters. Hunter AoE doesn't come anywhere near the AoE of a champ. If you're going to compare stuff, compare it under fair and unbiased scenarios, not just pick and choose.

We are talking about all classes fulfilling more than one role here right? Or not?

[Hejazia.Arkenstone]

Please. Hunter has two decent AoE skills. Rain of arrows for up to 10 targets if you trait 15 ranks into bowmaster to obtain the small crit chances. Split shot, can hit up to 5 targets if fully traited in huntsman. There is also rain of thorns, deep in the yellow tree, but to get that, one of the others has to go if hunter wants to do any decent amount of damage, plus, it's more of a root skill than a damage skill.

You wish champs to have a single target ability pretty close to hunters, and you want guardians to have a damage output pretty close to hunters. Hunter AoE doesn't come anywhere near the AoE of a champ. If you're going to compare stuff, compare it under fair and unbiased scenarios, not just pick and choose.

We are talking about all classes fulfilling more than one role here right? Or not?

Actually Hunter's Rain of Arrows should be on an AoE traitline that is separate from your typical single target DPS traitline. You don't need Split Shot or Rain of Thorns at all to do competent AoE on a hunter.

Their AoE is comparable to that of a champion in instances like Throne Mumaks t2c and Warg Pens. I've powerleveled many people whilst spamming RoA and I've found it to be much faster than champion in the current update.

You are just ill-informed.

[DKenny]

So you would require for every landscape player to know every detail about their spec like a raider? Landscape has not become face roll through better gear to me. Hunter is just right with dps to make it fun. I still can't see where RK has so much better dps. I struggle to keep mine alive in Mordor and since she can't finish the solo only in Naerband she is benched. Maybe she needs that relic that drops in instances to get there but without it she is worse then my LM. Your "if they know how to build their character" says it all. Basically, in your opinion, players that don't shouldn't be able to play through new content having fun. Maybe those who find Mordor/N Mirkwood face roll should just take off the better gear and give it to those who struggle.

Yes, RKs need the tac damage relics and raid armour set bonus to reach their full potential. That highlights part of the problem, there's a subset of players that have the best of everything, and know and play their class very well who constantly cry for player classes to be nerfed and content to be made more difficult. The problem is that many of the best players left the game when HD was introduced (not coincidentally the last time they made LOTRO more like WoW by introducing trait trees) and many of the players in the game are not right at the top with the absolute best gear etc. So a "challenge" for the top group will be prohibitively difficult for much of the remaining player base. I doubt that the game will survive catering to the tip of the iceberg and ignoring the bulk of it.

[Arnenna]

So you would require for every landscape player to know every detail about their spec like a raider? Landscape has not become face roll through better gear to me. Hunter is just right with dps to make it fun. I still can't see where RK has so much better dps. I struggle to keep mine alive in Mordor and since she can't finish the solo only in Naerband she is benched. Maybe she needs that relic that drops in instances to get there but without it she is worse then my LM. Your "if they know how to build their character" says it all. Basically, in your opinion, players that don't shouldn't be able to play through new content having fun. Maybe those who find Mordor/N Mirkwood face roll should just take off the better gear and give it to those who struggle.

Better still, if the rare gear is becoming a problem, then stop selling it to people. Teal relics and fragments of the abyss are sold on a daily basis, and help non groupers/raiders to obtain the OP gear that makes landscape, and group content easier. I don't know what the heck happened to the "if you want it, go earn it" concept, but it's long gone when it comes to instance/raid spoils. When it gets to the stage where everyone is using it (sales have dropped), then we see players (usually the ones who sold it all), calling for nerfs. If we get them, some new rare gear, or items to make it will be introduced to counter difficulty again, and the selling cycle will just begin all over again. Mordor, with it's upped difficulty was a blanket nerf of all classes (without actually touching the classes), and it spawned a requirement for black steel keys for a lot of players just to get through it. After that came gear that requires raid items, which were sold for gold that was mostly obtained by selling black steel keys. With the way this thread is going, if the worst happens, it's just another extension of all of the above. That's what worries me.

[Arnenna]

Actually Hunter's Rain of Arrows should be on an AoE traitline that is separate from your typical single target DPS traitline. You don't need Split Shot or Rain of Thorns at all to do competent AoE on a hunter.

Their AoE is comparable to that of a champion in instances like Throne Mumaks t2c and Warg Pens. I've powerleveled many people whilst spamming RoA and I've found it to be much faster than champion in the current update.

You are just ill-informed.

That's just two instances out of how many? Champs are not much use in Abyss right? And that is reason enough for them to get their single target dps increased right? They're just fine in many other instances.

[Arnenna]

Yes, RKs need the tac damage relics and raid armour set bonus to reach their full potential. That highlights part of the problem, there's a subset of players that have the best of everything, and know and play their class very well who constantly cry for player classes to be nerfed and content to be made more difficult. The problem is that many of the best players left the game when HD was introduced (not coincidentally the last time they made LOTRO more like WoW by introducing trait trees) and many of the players in the game are not right at the top with the absolute best gear etc. So a "challenge" for the top group will be prohibitively difficult for much of the remaining player base. I doubt that the game will survive catering to the tip of the iceberg and ignoring the bulk of it.

The tip of the iceberg will do just fine for now, as it has always done. They will be given high value items to sell to the bulk, and the bulk will just blindly . . . keep on buying, generating their gold source via the sale of store items. I just get the feeling, from this thread, that we're heading for a cycle of . . . upped difficulty . . . buy your way around it (unless you raid and can earn/sell your way around it), rinse and repeat. The bulk won't last forever, and the tip will eventually sink, and that should a sad day for everyone, but the bulk will have moved onto new things by then.

[Joedangod]

So you would require for every landscape player to know every detail about their spec like a raider? Landscape has not become face roll through better gear to me. Hunter is just right with dps to make it fun. I still can't see where RK has so much better dps. I struggle to keep mine alive in Mordor and since she can't finish the solo only in Naerband she is benched. Maybe she needs that relic that drops in instances to get there but without it she is worse then my LM. Your "if they know how to build their character" says it all. Basically, in your opinion, players that don't shouldn't be able to play through new content having fun. Maybe those who find Mordor/N Mirkwood face roll should just take off the better gear and give it to those who struggle.

Games are a medium which has pretty much always insisted on a minimum level of competence to progress. That being said the whole "people can 1 shot mobs" thing is a little overblown since it's only really going to happen on the people running the strongest gear and those guys aren't levelling.

The RK issue is a good point that the developers need to consider; those with the runes have a notably higher DPS output compared to those without the runes and this disparity between players should be removed. On the bright side depending on how deep they go with the class balance work you might find yellow RK becoming a bit more competitive and thus have a nicer option for landscape questing.

[Joedangod]

We are talking about all classes fulfilling more than one role here right? Or not?

Each traitline being able to fulfil one role is a better aim. Leaves less people out.

[siipperi]

If they nerf Hunters AND runekeepers i would like to see someone doing the AOM Bosses (T2) in the given time frame, especially in HM.

Hunters do not need a nerf.

I can go out and shoot 100 times and post the max dps, and you could all cry to nerf hunter.

But what you don't read here is the other trys where it just dont crit and you need 5-6 barrage hits to beat a 80k mob. Hunters don't one shot all Mobs in landscape on level.

Wasn't it Cordovan who said, 98% of balancing will get buffs, only 2% nerfs ? I really hope they let barrage as it is.

And btw. if the ministrel gets a huge DPS increase, can my hunter please get a nice group heal ? If the tank gets a huge damage increase, can huntes get a skill to tank 20 Mobs at all ? Or how about some nice 30% Debuffs for bosses for the hunter, if the loremasters get nice single DPS damage.

Thats no problem. They can remove good 40% of hunters and rks dps and people still could beat the raid first boss has now been killed in 3.5 minutes. We have used 3 other classes than rk/hunter in there so its no problem. Raids continue to work even with huge nerfs.

Also, no you cant have heals or debuffs. Hunter is not that kind of class. Should have rolled lm for that. But its fair to get dps and cc like hunters are.

[Arnenna]

Thats no problem. They can remove good 40% of hunters and rks dps and people still could beat the raid first boss has now been killed in 3.5 minutes. We have used 3 other classes than rk/hunter in there so its no problem. Raids continue to work even with huge nerfs.

Also, no you cant have heals or debuffs. Hunter is not that kind of class. Should have rolled lm for that. But its fair to get dps and cc like hunters are.

Guardian is not a dps class either, but, there you go, you want it to be. I have an LM if I want to play debuffs, I have a guard if I want to play tank, I have a champ if I want to deal massive AoE and I have a hunter for dps. That's how it should be.

@ the team. If you remove 40% of dps from hunters and RK's, and open that can of worms, be ready for what crawls out, is all I can say. Be ready to be asked for 40% nerf to guard's tanking ability, champs AoE ability, minstrels heal ability etc. If you're thinking of taking guard etc up, then do that, or if you're thinking of taking hunter/rk down, do that. You shouldn't do both.

[Macdui]

I'd guess that most of who are contributing to this thread will have maximising our characters and own skills with playing them high on their game objectives. Also, that we actually want a better game rather than just except what's given.

When I hear players talk of the "Toxic" forums I can only think all this is just beyond their understanding. Easier to consider it all toxic than to actual contribute.

The other thing is that many of us have actually thought through and maybe discussed the issues we have and attempts to waylay come from closed minds.

My concern is that SSG have the same mind set of the toxic forums and just don't play enough or have the experience of playing a particular class to assess the situation.


There's a mini in the gameplay forum wanting help to cope with Mordor, a few pointers and they should have the wherewithal to continue rather more easily. I want everyone's playing skills to catch up so it's an easier task to balance classes. I don't want SSG reading that post and thinking that a mini needs a big buff because someone is struggling with content, that others have breezed through. But we're hampered by the decision to take the game into easy mode by Turbine wanting to boost numbers after the HD losses.

However because of the path SSG took with imbuement, essence and stat inflation the difference in power between any 2 level 115s can be huge. Some will have given up the grind and never return to it. Equally some don't have the skill to play to the max and maybe too shy to get help. Just as some don't contribute to the forums as they don't want to seem foolish. Or don't talk in voice chat when there are more assertive players active. Some just play the game differently and are happy with that.

With the grind quite overwhelming for some it means the gap in power will only increase. How the heck can you provide content when you drive this extreme power gap between one player and another. Sev mentioned that because festivals were so liked that they were doing a scaled rift encounter for the summer. I infer numbers increase as players find they can't take the grind, finding it the only thing they can do these days. They haven't made to through Mordor to even get to do dailies, "pushed" into key purchases maybe, felt side-lined perhaps. This year's anniversary for me, it's been all about obtaining essence reclamation scrolls to cope with the monthly new essence to grind. So that's 17 characters that show up in their metrics that "love" the festival. Only thing that kept me awake was multi-boxing the fireworks in different layers and doing them with 7 prompts (and timing a new client instance until after the last client had released the ini file and avoid an ini reset). But for Star-lits and Reclamation scrolls for barter I doubt I'd do them unless there was something new. Only do Anniversary and Summer as it is, because I get enough resources to last the year with just those. I spice up the summer with split screen fishing. I'm sure we all have a way to make it through and avoid our brain cells contemplating mass suicide.

Mac

[Hejazia.Arkenstone]

That's just two instances out of how many? Champs are not much use in Abyss right? And that is reason enough for them to get their single target dps increased right? They're just fine in many other instances.

That's just two.... because I was giving an example (hence the usage of the word "like"). Champs are not much use in Abyss more because of mechanics not favoring them. It does not matter if you raise champs single target DPS, they will still get farmed in Boss 1 and Fingar.

If you replace a hunter/RK with a champ, they will have less damage output EVEN IF THEIR BASE DPS IS ON PAR WITH HUNTER/RK simply because hunters and RKs benefit from Benediction of the Raven debuff, Mystifying Flames debuff, etc.