Class Update - Hunters

[dselden]

I think this does illustrate the issue with barrage well.

Would it be possible to get a bullroarer build with a changed version of barrage as it is on the live server now, which is changed along these lines:

1) The base damage of tier 1 is lower than the damage of penetrating shot, tier 2 is equal to the damage of penetrating shot, and tier 3 is higher than the damage of penetrating shot.

2) The damage % increase component of barrage is not as high as it is now, e.g. 15 % in stead of 30% and 30% in stead of 60%, while the power consumption cost is still the same.

3) The premise that the red line should eclipse blue line damage by about 10-20% should still be the objective! If these changes are not enough than numbers should be tweaked further.

That should decrease the damage quite a bit, and still keep it a worthwhile skill in the blue line rotation.

Despite the fact that it's too strong right now, it does serve it's purpose of being a major focus consumer, as well as a major power consumer.

If there will be a lot less need for focus and power management it will just make the blue line rotation a lot less fun!

If they did this, chances are that barrage will still go up to the bugged T5 state. Making a 2s CD would help address that bug.

[Oelle]

Preventing barrage from getting higher than Barrage3 is only possible with having at least 5s delay between 3 Barrages.
If barrage with the highest possible attackspeed has an animationdelay of 0,5s, that can be achieved with 2s CD. Otherwise, it needs to be longer. Animationdelay plus CD needs to be minimum 2.5s.
Plus, this fixes the switch between barrage1, barrage2, barrage1, barrage2, barrage1, barrage2, if one just spams barrage at the beginning of the fight.

The only other way (besides fixing barrage) is adding a CD to all kinds of barrage after first barrage3. But thats clearly and obviously annoying.

[Macroscian]

I wanted to see

"Lingering Wound is now double the base initial application damage and the bleed is scaled up to reflect the current version of the game and the LW legacy now goes to 150%"
Instead I read the bleed has LOWERED damage.
All bleeds.
Why is this not per-skill and as-needed?

[Tatharil]

They are not working on yellow line, yet. They normalized some of yellow skill damage. Apparently LW. LW damage is scaling much better, as strong as BA/Exs. on live it is about 6300 per tick, on BR it was in the same range as BA (about 11000, initial bleed tick is gone though). But LW was bugged on BR: It didn't stack anymore. Debufftooltip tiered up, but damage stayed the same. Wounded Prey damage increased with each tier, though.
LW legacy doesn't need to be that high, but being in the same range like every other legacy would be great(29,2% or even 58,4% like HS). But before that we'll have to wait what will happen with LW and yellow in general. If it will tier up again or even stack there is no need of a strong legacy. But enough about yellow now, it is getting too much OT. This beta version is about blue and red.

[MAWorking]

After my initial review of Blue line changes, I tried Red.
Though this is not super productive to finding the balance, I still want to say it.

I have not logged back into BR or Live. (well I did log in for a second on live and just couldnt do it)
Change is hard and I fully get that and understand it.... but having to relearn, respec and re-grind are just too much (for me).

No drama llama here... I am sure I will recover, eventually, but I will not be first to make changes or cheerleading how to do it to world chat.

I guess the balance will be, class changes that encourage players to join the game vs class changes that causes players to leave.

Love the game and always will. Just my .02

[keztryl]

After my initial review of Blue line changes, I tried Red.
Though this is not super productive to finding the balance, I still want to say it.

I have not logged back into BR or Live. (well I did log in for a second on live and just couldnt do it)
Change is hard and I fully get that and understand it.... but having to relearn, respec and re-grind are just too much (for me).

No drama llama here... I am sure I will recover, eventually, but I will not be first to make changes or cheerleading how to do it to world chat.

I guess the balance will be, class changes that encourage players to join the game vs class changes that causes players to leave.

Love the game and always will. Just my .02

I feel the same. I really like the blue line barrage mechanic the way that it is. I have never had this much fun on my hunter. I wish it had been improved and not removed.

I've tried to collate my thoughts here, along with why I think so many people have a hard time understanding the frustration:

https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...83#post7835083

Having said that, I've got other action figures in my toy box to play with, so its not the end of the world. It is just the end of a certain way of playing lotro that I have found appealing. Having equivalent DPS numbers really doesn't matter if you don't find the new red line mechanics enjoyable. The current mobile/relentless/tiering mechanic is what has made hunters fun again, imo. I wish more players would stop talking numbers game and start asking is this really how I want to play the game?

[keztryl]

In my mind, the problem is that at lower tiers (1-3) barrage does too much damage, making blue line hunter ridiculously OP on the landscape. But in t2c raid environments, trying to reach/maintain the higher tiers of barrage 3 is where things get interesting. Right now, this mechanic seems fairly well balanced for fights like Fingar. Doing high parses takes dedication and skill, but not so much that people with limited time can't get start with a simple 2-5 skill rotation. All of the hunters in my circle have made steady improvements to their parses since Mordor came out. They did that by practicing and experimenting with different skill combinations just like people have always done. If an adjustment needs to be made I would rather barrage become a more transparent 6-7+ tier system, with lower damage at the start and a higher payout at the top. Delay how long it takes for barrage to really wreck an opponent, and you have alleviated concerns about hunters being too op on landscape and in the moors. But please keep the relentless attack style of barrage the way it is.

[Oelle]

Having said that, I've got other action figures in my toy box to play with, so its not the end of the world. It is just the end of a certain way of playing lotro that I have found appealing. Having equivalent DPS numbers really doesn't matter if you don't find the new red line mechanics enjoyable. The current mobile/relentless/tiering mechanic is what has made hunters fun again, imo. I wish more players would stop talking numbers game and start asking is this really how I want to play the game?

Well... they could let barrage as is, but reduce barrages basedamage by 70% or something like that... so that fully tiered up, it would by roughly 50% better than penshot. That way, it wouldnt be that OP and could stay... but do you really want that? To have the first 3 barrages deal less damage than a penshot?
otherwise: just +5% or +10% damage per tier, instead of +30% or +60%. would be fine, too, and not change the playstyle.

[XbammyX]

otherwise: just +5% or +10% damage per tier, instead of +30% or +60%. would be fine, too, and not change the playstyle.

I have an even more wild solution. Revert hunters back to Pre-Trait Tree's so I can run 4r3b + Fleetness again.
Get rid of casting-while-moving in Blue line as well. Bad player handicap for an already easy class to get comfortable on.

[keztryl]

Well... they could let barrage as is, but reduce barrages basedamage by 70% or something like that... so that fully tiered up, it would by roughly 50% better than penshot. That way, it wouldnt be that OP and could stay... but do you really want that? To have the first 3 barrages deal less damage than a penshot?
otherwise: just +5% or +10% damage per tier, instead of +30% or +60%. would be fine, too, and not change the playstyle.

Yes, that is what I'm saying. I mean, to make it more exciting, I think it would be cool if the higher tiers of barrage had a shorter window (to either be maintained or to allow barrage to bumped to the next tier), making the damage of the higher tiers equal to the challenge of sustaining them. But the basic mechanic is gratifying to me. I also like having only 5-6 skills in my main rotation, barrage, barbed arrow, improved penetrating shot, blood arrow, exsanguinate, and quick shot, allowing for greater movement, with the need for skills like burn hot, merciful shot (corruption removal), purge poison, and power restore skills resulting in a loss of focus (both literally, in terms of my attention, and virtually, in terms of the game mechanics) or risk some negative consequence. If we need to make this mechanic more challenging, I would prefer to see escalating damage come with increased risk (maybe something like higher tiers having increased threat, thus bringing back the need for beneath notice, or player regulated threat management), but in terms of DPS output, it is my understanding that the intention is to keep the numbers more or less the same (i.e., no "nerf"). I would also say, timing wise, I don't really feel like blue line hunters should have to relearn their rotation again only to produce the same amount of DPS. Why can't red line just be improved, giving players a new/different play style to explore? Why must all hunters who want to raid be forced to play the same way? Why aren't the other two lines being made equally viable?

[Elwenwing]

Yes, that is what I'm saying. I mean, to make it more exciting, I think it would be cool if the higher tiers of barrage had a shorter window (to either be maintained or to allow barrage to bumped to the next tier), making the damage of the higher tiers equal to the challenge of sustaining them. But the basic mechanic is gratifying to me. I also like having only 5-6 skills in my main rotation, barrage, barbed arrow, improved penetrating shot, blood arrow, exsanguinate, and quick shot, allowing for greater movement, with the need for skills like burn hot, merciful shot (corruption removal), purge poison, and power restore skills resulting in a loss of focus (both literally, in terms of my attention, and virtually, in terms of the game mechanics) or risk some negative consequence. If we need to make this mechanic more challenging, I would prefer to see escalating damage come with increased risk (maybe something like higher tiers having increased threat, thus bringing back the need for beneath notice, or player regulated threat management), but in terms of DPS output, it is my understanding that the intention is to keep the numbers more or less the same (i.e., no "nerf"). I would also say, timing wise, I don't really feel like blue line hunters should have to relearn their rotation again only to produce the same amount of DPS. Why can't red line just be improved, giving players a new/different play style to explore? Why must all hunters who want to raid be forced to play the same way? Why aren't the other two lines being made equally viable?

I would very much like to see at least one attempt on Bullroarer where they keep barrage on a short cooldown, and where they just tweak the numbers and percentages (Or just hardcode it to a limit of a maximum of three tiers without cooldowns, that should be possible.).

I feel most blue hunters will agree barrage is too strong right now, but at the same time at least a number of them, I myself as well, do like the general play style of the blue line!

Blue line at least needs to have a balance between skills that generate and consume focus, and with this first built that balance was gone mostly!

If barrage will keep a long cooldown, then blue line will need more focus consuming skills, or a redesign of focus generation and consumption!

Ideally that would mean more skills as without barrage on cooldown for around 70% of the time, we will be left with a simpler rotation. I'm not sure that fits in the scope of a balance pass!

I do like your idea of increasing risk with the continued use of barrage! Threat is a nice way to do that! Maybe another idea would be to decrease the efficience of survival skills the more barrage is used!

In general terms of dps I do feel blue should be a bit below the red line, as blue does have it's movement advantage!

Ideally new group content will be designed in such a way that both lines can have an advantage in different fights!

[Altair6]

Radical suggestion. Get rid of one of the Hunter's trait trees. They both do the same thing anyway, ranged damage on (mainly) a single target. Just give us one and a toggle skill that applies a small penalty to damage or whatever and allows us to move. No more flip-flopping from red better than blue to blue better than red, etc., and less fuss to gear for and to keep in balance with other classes.

[siipperi]

Radical suggestion. Get rid of one of the Hunter's trait trees. They both do the same thing anyway, ranged damage on (mainly) a single target. Just give us one and a toggle skill that applies a small penalty to damage or whatever and allows us to move. No more flip-flopping from red better than blue to blue better than red, etc., and less fuss to gear for and to keep in balance with other classes.

After this they both will be useful so play what playstyle suits you better. Nothing wrong in that, having ability to do that just makes class more rich from gameplay perspective.

[Joedangod]

Radical suggestion. Get rid of one of the Hunter's trait trees. They both do the same thing anyway, ranged damage on (mainly) a single target. Just give us one and a toggle skill that applies a small penalty to damage or whatever and allows us to move. No more flip-flopping from red better than blue to blue better than red, etc., and less fuss to gear for and to keep in balance with other classes.

Probably more logical to ask for one to be tweaked to focus on dealing AoE damage whilst the other focuses ST. You'd then have two useful trees and yellow champs might get some competition.

[siipperi]

Probably more logical to ask for one to be tweaked to focus on dealing AoE damage whilst the other focuses ST. You'd then have two useful trees and yellow champs might get some competition.

Design already works. For most of this games content blue will simply be better while red line is the peak damage used in minority of content in this game. Nothing wrong with that approach. What they need to do is really get yellow cc up to sniff at some point.

[Altair6]

Probably more logical to ask for one to be tweaked to focus on dealing AoE damage whilst the other focuses ST. You'd then have two useful trees and yellow champs might get some competition.

Yes, I thought about adding that but let's not give them too much to do right now. They could add that later or maybe think of something else. Maybe our melee weapons could become more useful than just buff sticks. Who knows?

[Joedangod]

Design already works. For most of this games content blue will simply be better while red line is the peak damage used in minority of content in this game. Nothing wrong with that approach. What they need to do is really get yellow cc up to sniff at some point.

Yeah, yeah. I'm just loathe to let champs sit around with 0 AoE DPS competition. I have a similar problem with captains not really having any competition for their brand of support either. It just bugs me.

[Happychappy]

Yeah, yeah. I'm just loathe to let champs sit around with 0 AoE DPS competition. I have a similar problem with captains not really having any competition for their brand of support either. It just bugs me.

yes it bugs me too.

[Caanwick]

Yet another option for Barrage, would be to have Barrage3 reset the skill to Barrage when it is fired. This would essentially make it a sequential skill. It would still have the current damage it carries on the live servers, but would effectively take away the extra tiering. This would allow you to maintain the rotation, while scaling back the crazy damage higher Barrages can get in to. Instead of having Barrage going 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, etc.. it would be 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3 and so on. From there, they could tweak some of the other skills and traits to bring the potential DPS of blue-line into the range they want.

[keztryl]

Yet another option for Barrage, would be to have Barrage3 reset the skill to Barrage when it is fired. This would essentially make it a sequential skill. It would still have the current damage it carries on the live servers, but would effectively take away the extra tiering. This would allow you to maintain the rotation, while scaling back the crazy damage higher Barrages can get in to. Instead of having Barrage going 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, etc.. it would be 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3 and so on. From there, they could tweak some of the other skills and traits to bring the potential DPS of blue-line into the range they want.

Its not so much about DPS and the rotation as what I experience when I play the class. Producing a sustained "barrage" of attacks should require enough real life focus that "tunnel vision" has a real possibility of setting in. In choosing to do more damage (by constantly cycling between barrage and other proc'd skills that do damage or build focus, good "situational awareness" should become harder to maintain (especially if you are constantly moving). Because focus building is based on crits and procs the dynamic is fluid and not always going to go your way. But the whole thrill of the dynamic disappears when you remove the reward of higher tiers. You are left just standing there doing a fixed rotation, caught in a repeating loop. There is no escalation of damage potential or risk of dps loss. This is what I feel gets lost every time the Devs try to balance DPS by removing the existing mechanics. Champs and hunters no longer feel like glass cannons whose DPS choices could have seriously negative consequences for themselves and the group. The mechanic no longer seduces you to play as recklessly, and this for me is where the boredom comes in.

[Snowlock]

Alot of talk here about blue line. But what about red? Is the DPS up on this line?

[NovaT]

I just don't have it in me to grind yet another LI. Think I'll be playing other classes more.

[DKenny]

Alot of talk here about blue line. But what about red? Is the DPS up on this line?

There was some indication from testing that it is up a bit. However, that may have based on the heartseeker reset bonus which is back on the table with the demise of barrage. The the fate of the heartseeker bonus may itself be up in the air, so it's hard to know exactly where things stand.

[Snowlock]

There was some indication from testing that it is up a bit. However, that may have based on the heartseeker reset bonus which is back on the table with the demise of barrage. The the fate of the heartseeker bonus may itself be up in the air, so it's hard to know exactly where things stand.

That's not great news for me. I've always been red line, never liked heartseeker. If they want to buff red line's damage other than a flat increase across the board, I'd rather see them boost quickshot and swift bow. Or they can put the damage back on barbed arrow and add barbed hindrance to it, and that'd be okay as well.

[Bhorn_EU]

Yeah, yeah. I'm just loathe to let champs sit around with 0 AoE DPS competition. I have a similar problem with captains not really having any competition for their brand of support either. It just bugs me.

That is why we have DIFFERENT classes, the logical end of your supposition is 1 class for everyone.