Class Update - Guardians

[Bhorn_EU]

Classes that have AoE stuns:
Beorning (if traited Lumber then AoE stun in bear form after use of Lumber, just like Guards worked with charge, else not, just AoE fear in yellow. Though, technically, a Knockdown is not a Stun, which might mean Beornings dont have a stun. But as knockdown usually is nearly the same as stun and has slightly less CCimmunity, I'll call it a stun)
Burglar (3 Targets, 8 Seconds, <20s CD)
Captains (Terrifying Bellow, 4 Targets, 5 Seconds, 15s CD)
Champion (Several: crafted Horn (longest AoE Stun ingame, but consumable), Horn of Gondor (3s, many targets), Trait Athletic (works just like Guards Charge-Stun)
Guardian (Shield-smash, 7 Targets, 3 Seconds, 5s? CD, Charge-Stun that seems to vanish, Cataclysmic shout (not sure here, never used it))
Hunter (Explosion of Decoy, which really isnt very reliant and takes forever to launch, Cry of the Hunter is just an AoE mezz, not a stun, and an awful skill)
Loremaster (Ents go to war, 5 Targets, 6 Seconds (can be up to 8.5s), 5min CD, Storm-Lore, 5?Targets?, 3-5.5s, 2min CD, plus 2 AoE roots and an AoE Mezz)
Runekeeper (Fulgurite Runestone with quite some Delay. I think its 4s and unlimited Targets and no CD, plus AoE Mezz with vivid imaginary or something like that)

Classes that dont have AoE stuns:
Minstrel (afair, only Concussive Shout as a spammable 5s Single Target Stun (stuns only on crit with a skill with ~60% critchance which gets its CD resetted by every critical ballad))
Warden (I'm just aware of a slowly inducted ST stun that cant even be used infight)

TL;DR: even without Charge-Stun, Guards will remain one of the classes with AoE stun abilities, but there are classes which dont have such.

Brutal charge is only available in Red line. Shield Smash is a blue line skill. Most players have 1 or the other, no shield smash if using a 2H, so removing the the knockdown leaves NO aoe stun for a red guard.

[Joedangod]

Brutal charge is only available in Red line. Shield Smash is a blue line skill. Most players have 1 or the other, no shield smash if using a 2H, so removing the the knockdown leaves NO aoe stun for a red guard.

On that list there's only 2 non-AoE DPS class with an AoE stun: Yellow RK and Red champ. All the others are supports, tanks or AoE DPS i.e. they're designed to be fighting groups. Even with these changes Guardians have better self healing than an RK or Champion.

I get why people like having an AoE stun but it's not exactly necessary. If you need to take a breather from a group of mobs for a second you could just activate charge and....run away far faster than any mob can chase? Or just trait shield smash in redline, you take a DPS hit but that's kinda fair for the utility and defence it brings.

All in all it's not totally unfair that this is getting dropped from the traitline.

[Gandalfy]

On that list there's only 2 non-AoE DPS class with an AoE stun: Yellow RK and Red champ. All the others are supports, tanks or AoE DPS i.e. they're designed to be fighting groups. Even with these changes Guardians have better self healing than an RK or Champion.

I get why people like having an AoE stun but it's not exactly necessary. If you need to take a breather from a group of mobs for a second you could just activate charge and....run away far faster than any mob can chase? Or just trait shield smash in redline, you take a DPS hit but that's kinda fair for the utility and defence it brings.

All in all it's not totally unfair that this is getting dropped from the traitline.

My point is that there is no good reason to remove the Charge stun, and even if there was, why not replace it with something similar?
It's a fun skill and makes Guardian more fun to play.
Lots of other classes have AOE stuns, so why not allow Guardian to have them in red line?
Aren't we here to have fun?

[siipperi]

On live brutal charge does knock down, not a stun. Big difference and one of reasons it needs to be altered tbh.

[Joedangod]

My point is that there is no good reason to remove the Charge stun, and even if there was, why not replace it with something similar?
It's a fun skill and makes Guardian more fun to play.
Lots of other classes have AOE stuns, so why not allow Guardian to have them in red line?
Aren't we here to have fun?

They're currently focusing on making red guardian less AoE focused and more ST focused, removing an AoE stun makes sense in this situation. Why bother removing the stun if you're going to give a similar ability?

As far as fun goes: That's subjective. I never liked using the AoE stun because it just felt too gimmicky and didn't really suit the class. Others liked it because it gave them a couple seconds of free DPS where nothing fought back. Nobody is right or wrong from a fun standpoint.

[Decrepify]

Specific Suggestions for Improving Red Guardian DPS

I've been trying to think of a way to actually offer this input in a reasonably formatted way and decided that a patch notes style list is probably the best method so I'll list my recommendations below. I will then attempt to detail my reasoning underneath the change list.

Defender of the Free (Blue) changes:

• Some blue line traits should be rearranged in the tree to address balance issues when buying traits outside specialization
  
  • Smashing Stab: Row 4 -> Row 2
  • Guardian's Pledge: Row 2 -> Row 4

Agreed on this part, it's far too easy to get Guards pledge, considering it's a pretty decent panic skill against multiple mobs.

Fighter of Shadow (Yellow) changes:

• Insult to injury should be removed and replaced by a 5 rank Vitality increase.
• Bolster should be replaced by a 5 rank light damage increase.
• Tenderize should be replaced by a 5 rank critical rating bonus.

Agreed, but only if Radiate was returned to it's old state. If this happens, it would mean spreading debuffs (and keeping some of them up) would be a lot more difficult.

Keen Blade (Red) changes:

• Brutal Charge should be replaced by a flat 5% critical chance increase.
• Prey on the Weak should be replaced with a 50% critical magnitude increase.
• Thrill of Battle should be replaced by a 5 rank might increase.
• Raw Power should no longer increase the duration of the Thrust bleed, instead it should offer a 5-10-15-20-25% damage bonus to overwhelm if it hits a target suffering from the Thrust bleed.
• Hammer Down should no longer count as a parry response skill.
• Hammer Down should have its damage output increased by 100%.
• Shorten attack duration on Brutal Assault and To the King.
• Some red line traits should be rearranged in the tree to address balance issues when buying traits outside specialization
  
  • Thrust: Row 2 -> Row 3
  • Invigorating Parry: Row 3 -> Row 2

It's Deeper Wounds now, not Raw power
But yeah, I can see your point on this one. My only issue is what the exact rating on might ratings would be....as those have a history of being obsolete eventually.

Legendary Item Changes:

• The LI legacy "Bleed Critical Damage" should be removed.
• Rename the "Reactive Parry Damage" legacy to "Parry Response Skill Damage".
• Catch a Breath Cooldown legacy should be removed.

Remove the legacy only if POTW now gives the crit magnitude, otherwise, it could be a pretty decent legacy now.
Simple cleanup with the reactive parry damage, I like it, it's pretty silly how it states that it increases damage on a useless talent.
Agreed with CAB. No need for it, there are better legacies anyway.

Universal Changes:

• Base damage for all skills barring whirling retaliation and the bleeds should be increased by ~50%.
• Catch a Breath should be set to heal 25% morale by default, retaining the 60s cooldown.
• Replace shield use rating with tactical mitigation or incoming healing rating.

Base damage boost that would affect all 3 lines, seems good...but should be def tested first, 50% can make a lot of difference.
CAB buff...fine I suppose, though, not a fan of having better self-healing on a sturdy tank class.
Incoming healing, yes. Tactical mit, no. We get enough as it is, and it's possible to go way overcap without any essences.

[Joedangod]

CAB buff...fine I suppose, though, not a fan of having better self-healing on a sturdy tank class.

I think the best correction for the strong self healing would be to nerf warriors heart in redline somehow in a way that doesn't affect yellow/blue rather than tweak CAB. Would be pretty nice if it could lose the healing and function as a DPS buff for red although that might be wishful thinking.

[Decrepify]

I think the best correction for the strong self healing would be to nerf warriors heart in redline somehow in a way that doesn't affect yellow/blue rather than tweak CAB. Would be pretty nice if it could lose the healing and function as a DPS buff for red although that might be wishful thinking.

Optimize the "Warriors Fortitude" trait to provide much better bonuses at expense of 50-60% reduced healing from itself. For example, increasing melee damage by 25%, critical chance by 10%, crit/dev magnitude by 20% while reducing the heal by 50-60%.

Best I can come up with.

[Giliodor]

Optimize the "Warriors Fortitude" trait to provide much better bonuses at expense of 50-60% reduced healing from itself. For example, increasing melee damage by 25%, critical chance by 10%, crit/dev magnitude by 20% while reducing the heal by 50-60%.

Best I can come up with.

Or you just reduce the healing on WH upon entering The Keep Blade. They did the same with Wardens and outgoing healing.

[Joedangod]

Or you just reduce the healing on WH upon entering The Keep Blade. They did the same with Wardens and outgoing healing.

Main problem is the fact that it's a legacy involved, the base warriors heart heal would be fine for a DPS, the legacy variant not so much.

I guess that we know it's technically possible for a skill to have multiple variants since the stances on Warden/Minstrel replace skills like that. Wonder if they can attach such a thing to a traitline itself.

[Madmanthief]

If you all are so willing to nerf red spec healing to the point where it's virtually non existent, continue on and ask for a nerf to the other 2 specs as well. Otherwise it's looking like the hunter subforums where it's the same old BS of flip flopping what is the top spec.

[Joedangod]

If you all are so willing to nerf red spec healing to the point where it's virtually non existent, continue on and ask for a nerf to the other 2 specs as well. Otherwise it's looking like the hunter subforums where it's the same old BS of flip flopping what is the top spec.

This is the primary reason why I didn't list a possible warriors heart nerf for red on the change list. I just can't be bothered to defend the suggestion that a DPS traitline should have a similar level of self healing as other DPS traitlines.

[Grimlir83]

(sorry for my bad English)
If the goal is to have a red DPS line which has self healing and DPS like a champion, then make a champion.
Agree to lower self healing and more DPS, but guardian has an identity which make him interesting : knockdown (why not single target knockdown instead of AOE and instead of no knockdown ?), combos with parry reactions, use of dots etc.
OK for the changes made with this build by the developpers (what else could be done ?), but I already have a champion and I do not want play my red guardian as a red champion (or more boring : 2 or 3 buttons for dots and that is all).
The actual build and trait tree on Bullroarer are not perfect, but fine and lot better than the current situation, with the two main problems which are the belt and prey for the weak in the raid tree (but disagree with something like critical magnitude for PoW, red guardian is not a class with big burst but who does regular damages in my opinion). Do not touch to warrior heart, and do not give the same dps as others dps traitlines.

[Giliodor]

This is the primary reason why I didn't list a possible warriors heart nerf for red on the change list. I just can't be bothered to defend the suggestion that a DPS traitline should have a similar level of self healing as other DPS traitlines.

You're right, people seem to really struggle with that concept. You would be opening the gates of hell if you started arguing that guardians should be a viable DPS class when specced in red line, similar to red line champions.

That said, I do think that should be the case. Guardian DPS should be similar to that of champions, and their survival abilities should be reduced accordingly.

[Happychappy]

You're right, people seem to really struggle with that concept. You would be opening the gates of hell if you started arguing that guardians should be a viable DPS class when specced in red line, similar to red line champions.

That said, I do think that should be the case. Guardian DPS should be similar to that of champions, and their survival abilities should be reduced accordingly.

I do agree with that.

Champs should also not be the only AoE kings.

[Grimlir83]

And I do not agree, as a large number of guardians who do not care being as OP in DPS as champions, hunters, rune keepers.
In the release notes it's clearly written :
The line is intended to be a functional soloing build for the guardian that will allow them to play through the game at a much more acceptable pace. It is not explicitly intended to be fully competitive as a raid-DPS line, though we'll see where it actually sits in testing.
That is the goal.
It makes sense, it'a a good thing and the build they are trying to make is not perfect (PoW and belt have a problem as Vastin said) but not incorrect : less self heal and more DPS in a build with less bugs. Survivability and DPS are balanced.
Make guardian's DPS for going into Abyss of Mordath in red line is not the goal, and majority of guardians do not care of that and do not ask for that.

[Dmunney]

I did say ALL mitigations, not physical only.
No one is tactical mits capped without essences. And running with a 2H your physical mits are not capped either, without essences.
I would rather have a nice chunk of mits on my belt so I can use mastery or crit or any other type of essences to round out my toon.

Blue line guardian can cap tactical mitigation with NO essences. From virtues, north mirkwood earring, teal raid shield, teal raid/erebor crafted/bartered armor, and tactical mitigation rings my tactical mitigation is 79000 unbuffed. This is slightly over t2 cap.

That being said i would prefer in order of preference:
1. something for extra threat on belts
2. mits if its % based
3. inc healing if % based
4. % base increase to any of block parry and/or evade (full or partial)
5. incoming healing numbers rating
6. bpe rating numbers
7. lastly mitigation number rating ( which is totally useless for me)

[Oelle]

Blue line guardian can cap tactical mitigation with NO essences. From virtues, north mirkwood earring, teal raid shield, teal raid/erebor crafted/bartered armor, and tactical mitigation rings my tactical mitigation is 79000 unbuffed. This is slightly over t2 cap.

Thats like saying "I can reach fate values that make me need no fate essences, if I put equipment with fate in all characterslots"
Essences are part of the equipment. If you use gear with a large amount on some stat on it, thats exactly the same like using essences of that stat.
Some people prefer not to use fate-equipment, because fate is a quite useless stat. Therefore, they for example may prefer the earrings with critical defense and evade instead of mits and fate. Then, there is a use for further Mits.
As long as everything stacks additive, percentual bonusses to Mits are completely overpowered from belt. The same for avoidances. Unless those bonusses are so tiny that they can be ignored. whatever the belt gets, it has to be some kind of rating, not percentage.

[Madmanthief]

In terms of healing for a red spec guardian, would anyone be opposed to 1 of the traits adding a 3-5% heal to a high damage skill, similar to how renewing strikes works on the champ. This skill would have to have a cd long enough so that it isn't op but also not too long so as to be utterly useless much as ToB was after u18.1.

The trait would have to be far enough down into the red spec so it would be exclusive to it.

[Joedangod]

In terms of healing for a red spec guardian, would anyone be opposed to 1 of the traits adding a 3-5% heal to a high damage skill, similar to how renewing strikes works on the champ. This skill would have to have a cd long enough so that it isn't op but also not too long so as to be utterly useless much as ToB was after u18.1.

The trait would have to be far enough down into the red spec so it would be exclusive to it.

I'm opposed to this being added whilst Warriors Heart is still fully available to red. The traitline has more than enough healing right now.

[siipperi]

In terms of healing for a red spec guardian, would anyone be opposed to 1 of the traits adding a 3-5% heal to a high damage skill, similar to how renewing strikes works on the champ. This skill would have to have a cd long enough so that it isn't op but also not too long so as to be utterly useless much as ToB was after u18.1.

The trait would have to be far enough down into the red spec so it would be exclusive to it.

We have one already and its even stronger. Honourable combat.

[Joedangod]

And I do not agree, as a large number of guardians who do not care being as OP in DPS as champions, hunters, rune keepers.

The self healing available to guards in redline was as OP as the DPS that hunters/RK's/Champions could pull. It is very, very, very difficult for a red guardian to die to a mob on live. It was even harder to die to a mob before the U18.2 nerfs. Worst of all there wasn't actually any skill component related to the survival; if you kept swinging your weapon at a target you were going to keep passively proccing heals and go on living.

Red Guardian is overpowered. It's just a boring kind of overpowered where you simply sit there and outlast your opponent in stale, exceptionally passive gameplay.

(sorry for my bad English)
If the goal is to have a red DPS line which has self healing and DPS like a champion, then make a champion.

We're suggesting Guardians end up with similar numbers to red champion. That doesn't make them like red champion. Red champs focus on building up to big hits on particular skills whilst red guards focus on maintaining bleeds, self buff and responding to parry events.

If something does the same role as another class it doesn't suddenly become the other class. So long as each traitline behaves and plays a different way there is no reason why there shouldn't be multiple traitlines concerned with doing the same singular role.

[Gaiandrial]

I thought the knockdown was very useful when solo questing on my guardian, I'd knock them down and deal some damage, In my opinion the knockdown is more useful then an extra critical hit.

I concur most whole-heartedly! Please keep the knockdown or perhaps make it a toggle/alt skill where we can select either knockdown OR crit?

Seriously though, it's about time we Guardians got a lil lovin', we've been nerfed too many times over the years and the bugs have nvr been fixed properly. Solo play has become a struggle at times at cap even with maxxed gear, not all Guardians like tanking 'ya know

..... now, let the trolling begin

[Madmanthief]

Sorry but that trait is a joke, and based off of bleeds. I'm talking about a flat heal that activates when used.

[Gandalfy]

Not if you play this game like its your job, then no time for fun. I agree with you. I believe many of the changes in the proposed update are about making Pvp balanced and have little to do with actual pve class balance as you have realized.

The amount of stuns and knockdowns that creeps can do is rediculous.
I gave up on the Moors because of being chain stunned all the time on my hunter.
If they are going to take away the Guardian's stun, they should take away all the creeps stuns as well.

Most people play this game for fun.
Taking away the Guardian's redline stun is not an improvement for the class.
It is taking away the most fun skill, and most guardian players won't be happy with that.
And there is no valid reason - most Freeps have an AOE stun and I believe creeps have more stuns on a shorter CD than freeps.