Class Update - Guardians

[Joedangod]

Those who enjoyed Brutal Charge for its dramatic flair and exciting animation are hoping it won't be gone, but who knows.

...are you thinking of Cataclysmic Shout there? Brutal Charge doesn't have any animations attached to it...

Actually Cataclysmic Shout makes another AoE stun that people could technically grab here. Not much DPS loss involved at all with that one even...heck you would also gain self healing going that deep into yellow.

[Joedangod]

I am thinking of watching all the enemies fall down as being a really cool animation. An animation is any kind of drawing that depicts motion by using subtle changes from frame to frame. I suppose it has a specific meaning for character actions that you are referring to, but I am drawing from the more general definition.

Still, just take shield smash or cataclysmic shout. Does the same thing but requires you to give a little something up in order to get something powerful.

[Joedangod]

How about I play the game the way I like to play it and you stop using brutal charge since you don't like the skill at all and we would both be happier.

I generally don't use the skill because I don't think it should be there. Therefore I am going to submit feedback that agrees with the initial developer idea to remove Brutal Charge from the Red Guardian. From my perspective it's an excellent change.

[mrgray28th]

For the new vitality scaling bubble from the blue line trait Stoic, there is 10% morale increase in bubble strength when going from 5 points into the trait to 6 points. the 6th trait points adds a 10% morale heal on bubble expiration, but this 10% impacts the bubble strength.

For instance, the bubble strength with 5 points into the trait is 53,672. When i add the 6th trait point the bubble goes up to 67,090.
https://gyazo.com/87260591fb8640043ba2d853f1277cdc
https://gyazo.com/a6110694c3150be0d2e44380777b200f
Not sure if this is intended and the tooltip is missing something or the 10% morale on expiration is accidentally being applied to the base bubble.

[Joedangod]

They don't want to compromise on anything.

Did you just think that guardian should be getting all buffs and no nerfs? I mean really, as mentioned earlier; Red Guardian was stupidly overpowered in regards to the fact that it was insanely hard to kill due to the sheer amount of passive healing present. That stuff needed to go and it's gone. The traitline now focuses on ST abilities so removing an AoE knockdown makes sense. They did replace it with a ST stun but you don't seem to acknowledge or accept that. If you still insist on having an AoE stun you are still able to get one by either taking shield smash from blue or cataclysmic shout from yellow.

[Zvim666]

Did you just think that guardian should be getting all buffs and no nerfs?

Red damage was garbage post mordor, why would you need to nerf anything? You could literally do more damage with a 1h and shield using shield skills and have a ton more survivability.

I mean really, as mentioned earlier; Red Guardian was stupidly overpowered in regards to the fact that it was insanely hard to kill due to the sheer amount of passive healing present.

lol which iteration of was stupidly overpowered? I think you are just upset your warden is no long playing in god mode.

That stuff needed to go and it's gone. The traitline now focuses on ST abilities so removing an AoE knockdown makes sense. They did replace it with a ST stun but you don't seem to acknowledge or accept that. If you still insist on having an AoE stun you are still able to get one by either taking shield smash from blue or cataclysmic shout from yellow.

So landscape mobs are only going to come at red spec Guardians one at a time?

I think your arguments are idiotic and I am not even a fan of brutal charge.

[Joedangod]

Red damage was garbage post mordor, why would you need to nerf anything? You could literally do more damage with a 1h and shield using shield skills and have a ton more survivability.

There was fair need to nerf the self healing. Playing red Guardian post u18.2 was really more about outlasting an opponent rather than actively trying to kill them. Most of your skills hit for essentially nothing so instead you just kept on healing whilst pressing random buttons.

lol which iteration of was stupidly overpowered? I think you are just upset your warden is no long playing in god mode.

Always a conspiracy. I haven't really played wardens since the switch over from Codemasters to Turbine servers, the skill delay screws with my gambits and just makes it not-fun all round. The overpowered aspect of red guardian was the fact that the healing took no effort on part of the player to trigger and it was not a small amount of healing. Prior to U18.2 it wasn't uncommon to heal from almost nothing to full via the use of a single AoE damage skill.

So landscape mobs are only going to come at red spec Guardians one at a time?

No? Are you suggesting that you absolutely need AoE knockdowns to fight multiple enemies at a time here? A ST traitline can manage just fine without AoE knockdowns but if you absolutely, totally, must-have an AoE stun....you can trait cataclysmic shout for a rather mild DPS decrease.

I think your arguments are idiotic and I am not even a fan of brutal charge.

To be clear your counter-arguments were as follows:

• Because Red Guardian DPS was low it should only get buffs regardless of how other factors apply.
• If I think Red Guardian was overpowered in some way it must be because I am a Warden who is crying about not being invincible.
• People need AoE stuns/knockdowns to fight multiple mobs at once.

[siipperi]

Who's game? Yours maybe, so don't use brutal charge. Problem solved.

Don't tell the rest of us how to play. You don't make the rules for other players. You have all the tools you need to play the game the way you want to without affecting everyone else. Other people using brutal charge knockdown doesn't negatively effect you.



The way I play my character is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS.

Devs make those decisions not me. And considering what they have done it would be pretty safe to assume whole knockdown effect isn't what they intent the class to be. Guardian had none of this nonsense for over half the decade.

lol which iteration of was stupidly overpowered? I think you are just upset your warden is no long playing in god mode.

This one? This wasn't even peak self healing at the time. After they nuked Thrill of Battle.

So landscape mobs are only going to come at red spec Guardians one at a time?

I think your arguments are idiotic and I am not even a fan of brutal charge.

I don't even know why people insist brutal charge knockdown being useful in landscape. Extremely rarely available for landscape due to long CD and just few second stun. Garbage for landscape, breaks mechanics in instances.

[Brightswitch]

Hey all,

I've been following this thread for a while, and I feel that the feedback is starting to get muddied. The discussion has been really interesting so far, but I think it would be better off in the regular Guardians forum. For this particular thread, I think it would be best if we kept the focus on addressing the devs directly.

Anyway, sorry if I sound like a backseat mod. I just feel kind of antsy because I want this update to go as smoothly as it can. I main a Guardian and usually play red line; I've been frustrated with the broken bleeds (etc etc) for so long despite the patience I've been trying to cultivate by playing this class. I'm cautiously optimistic about the new streamlined bleeds. I always liked the bleeds as a concept, but the old stacking system being finicky and "hard to debug" is... reeaally no joke.

[Zvim666]

There was fair need to nerf the self healing. Playing red Guardian post u18.2 was really more about outlasting an opponent rather than actively trying to kill them. Most of your skills hit for essentially nothing so instead you just kept on healing whilst pressing random buttons.

We are a long way from 18.2 so not sure what relevance it has. Self-healing in 21.1 doesn't seem that great to me by comparison to the incoming damage, which has increased massively since 18.2. The intent is for red to do enough damage to get through landscape without wanting to kill yourself. What tools class X or Y has when it isn't a competitive DPSer to me is a largely pointless argument to whine about. If it cuts you that deep though, by all means provide the feedback.

Always a conspiracy. I haven't really played wardens since the switch over from Codemasters to Turbine servers, the skill delay screws with my gambits and just makes it not-fun all round. The overpowered aspect of red guardian was the fact that the healing took no effort on part of the player to trigger and it was not a small amount of healing. Prior to U18.2 it wasn't uncommon to heal from almost nothing to full via the use of a single AoE damage skill.

Well, if it quacks like a duck, it is usually a duck. The only people that whine about Guardians are Wardens or PvMPers and I haven't notice you talk about PvMP.

No? Are you suggesting that you absolutely need AoE knockdowns to fight multiple enemies at a time here? A ST traitline can manage just fine without AoE knockdowns but if you absolutely, totally, must-have an AoE stun....you can trait cataclysmic shout for a rather mild DPS decrease.

Do I absolutely need it? Does any class absolutely need any utilities? My Minstrel doesn't need fear to kill packs of three mobs, my LM doesn't need roots and mez, can't remember the last time I used a trap on my hunter, don't really need the fear either, rarely use it. Every class can survive without CC, but life is a lot more painful if you need to sit there in melee with mediocre damage while multiple mobs are hitting you.

The 10% extra flat mitigation you take vs a medium or 20% on a light pales in comparison to the 100% or 200% extra damage you take being in melee range... assuming mobs even get into melee range vs a ranged class. Burg do blazing single target damage, have CC, have debuffs, have limited healing. So what exactly are you comparing to and more importantly, why?

Why would I want to trait all the way through yellow just for a ####ty AE stun when we in the grand scheme of things, they aren't THAT useful for landscape because you can probably just buttonmash your way through a few mobs. It would require a 62 trait point investment and yellow traits are now extremely mediocre for red spec.

To be clear your counter-arguments were as follows:

• Because Red Guardian DPS was low it should only get buffs regardless of how other factors apply.
• If I think Red Guardian was overpowered in some way it must be because I am a Warden who is crying about not being invincible.
• People need AoE stuns/knockdowns to fight multiple mobs at once.

No, this is my counter argument. Guardian only has one end-game spec, Blue. Only one role, tanking. Nothing they have introduced or altered changes the status quo so I am not sure why people care about Brutal Charge.

I really couldn't give a stuff, they can take it out for all I care. I just don't get why it suddenly matters to people when nothing has effectively changed. It used to be great for stacking bleeds and PotW, but the bleed boat has sailed west along with the elves.

[Zvim666]

This one? This wasn't even peak self healing at the time. After they nuked Thrill of Battle.

How many times did you pop Thrill of Danger, 3 times? So you were being hit about 40 times per second and each hit was healing for less than 1.5k per hit, you would need some context as to the fight that generated those kind of numbers, because being in red spec in dps gear that healing wont keep you alive with Northern Mirkwood levels of incoming damage, maybe if you were in tanking gear but who really cares, it doesn't allow you to do anything of significance on your own.

I can generate all sorts of useless and meaningless numbers.

I don't even know why people insist brutal charge knockdown being useful in landscape. Extremely rarely available for landscape due to long CD and just few second stun. Garbage for landscape, breaks mechanics in instances.

Knocking down a bunch of mobs isn't useful? I will buy Joe's argument that it isn't necessary, but not being useful to not be hit for a while is a bit of a stretch.

I am not aware of any instance mechanics being abused by red spec guardians with brutal charge.

[Oddessia]

I have to say Im pretty dissapointed about the aoe stun from Charge being removed. That is the most fun skill of my guardian! As well I use it both offensively and defensively. I havent taken my guard to the moors so I wont comment on that but I do feel that the guaranteed crit is just lacking. I mean...who cares? A guaranteed crit on the lowest DPS toon...big whoop. LOL As well (not that anyone uses this trait) but in redline there's a trait called To The Rescue...if you max the rank on it, it guarantees that Charge's next hit is a crit. So REALLY we arent gaining a guaranteed crit - we are just having our stun removed. Please don't. Or if you absolutely must...please bring in some other unique effect.

Ods

[Macdui]

Guardian had none of this nonsense for over half the decade.

Oct 2013 we were discussing HD and trait trees on BR. Almost half a decade we've had this nonsense. Threat copy +900% broke raid mechanics in every raid they scaled, and most they didn't. At a time they stopped making new ones.


Do we know the devs are dropping it for raid mechanics reasons? I thought the tree swapping was a "server performance issue". If they need to keep it out of raids and other tree swapping advantages then they should have fixed it properly by dropping buffs when you change tree not the CD hack. It's not like the red guard will get that dps slot is it?

Should champ loose their AE stun? Should they turn in their horns for wood mats?


I don't really care either way, it was nice to floor the fell beast for some fun one night, when I could finally see the darn thing. Recently found it useful when taking on a lot of landscape, for fun. Mostly it was seeing the different animations of the mobs I used it on, for fun.


I hope he forgives me but found this from pre release of HD:

I would really recommend that you not get used to anything with any of the class changes. I have a feeling things will be changed post launch fairly quickly. We'll see how things are in beta round 6.

Made me smile


Mac

[Macdui]

How many times did you pop Thrill of Danger, 3 times?

Legacy gear bonus to enable 20 second thrills I believe. It was all the legacy gear bonuses that were breaking the raid mechanics. Captain Oathes resets anyone?

Mac

[Zvim666]

Legacy gear bonus to enable 20 second thrills I believe. It was all the legacy gear bonuses that were breaking the raid mechanics. Captain Oathes resets anyone?

Mac

Context is important when you provide numbers, irrespective if it was being hit 40 times per second on lower level mobs that are no threat or it was less using legacy gear which is irrelevant for 22.2, the status quo is 22.1 and the re-balance is for 22.2 and beyond, anything outside of that context is disingenuous at best, intentionally misleading at worst.

[ChromiteSwiftpaw]

I hope he forgives me but found this from pre release of HD:

Made me smile


Mac

Mac, I feel so ashamed that I actually had hope that the devs would realize the mistake they made

I quit for 3 months when Helm's Deep hit. Such a depressing time for LOTRO.

[Gandalfy]

I have to say Im pretty dissapointed about the aoe stun from Charge being removed. That is the most fun skill of my guardian! As well I use it both offensively and defensively. I havent taken my guard to the moors so I wont comment on that but I do feel that the guaranteed crit is just lacking. I mean...who cares? A guaranteed crit on the lowest DPS toon...big whoop. LOL As well (not that anyone uses this trait) but in redline there's a trait called To The Rescue...if you max the rank on it, it guarantees that Charge's next hit is a crit. So REALLY we arent gaining a guaranteed crit - we are just having our stun removed. Please don't. Or if you absolutely must...please bring in some other unique effect.

Ods

Devs need to pay attention to this kind of feedback.
It represents the majority of people who actually play Guardian.
Note that most people on this thread who support removal of Charge knockdown are Creeps or people who don't play Guardian and don't care about it being nerfed to uselessness.
Their opinions should be dismissed.
Their suggestions of using yellow or blue lines in order to find stun skills (such as cataclysmic shout) ignore the fact that these lines have almost zero DPS and can't be used for anything other than tanking.

Perhaps there are a tiny number of Guardians who don't use charge. That's fine. They don't need to use all skills available.
That doesn't mean you should remove it from the vast majority of us who use it regularly.

Just don't make changes that will cause people to react by leaving the game altogether.
That's not smart business sense.

[Decrepify]

Devs need to pay attention to this kind of feedback.
It represents the majority of people who actually play Guardian.

Doubt it. I believe that other Guardians are who are in favour of this change (such as myself) realise that the entire trait tree is shifting greatly from the old buggy AOE mayhem to a pretty decent ST tree. We're getting a massive buff in terms of raw damage, simpler, yet more engaging playstyle and with the devs claiming it wasn't just because of balance (prone to debugging), we wholeheartedly accept the removal of the knockdown.

Note that most people on this thread who support removal of Charge knockdown are Creeps or people who don't play Guardian and don't care about it being nerfed to uselessness.
Their opinions should be dismissed.

No players opinion should ever be dismissed. You can learn something from anyone, be it ignorance or wisdom.

Their suggestions of using yellow or blue lines in order to find stun skills (such as cataclysmic shout) ignore the fact that these lines have almost zero DPS and can't be used for anything other than tanking.

Completely wrong. Shield-Smash, even on BR with the obsolete Shield-Use, is one of the hardest hitting skills in the entire Guardians kit, and there have been plenty of people making a DPS-orientated red line S&B build. Or you can simply use it on a swap piece, for when you absolutely need CC, though, in landscape, there's ever really a need unless you pull 5+ enemies.

Perhaps there are a tiny number of Guardians who don't use charge. That's fine. They don't need to use all skills available.
That doesn't mean you should remove it from the vast majority of us who use it regularly.

Maybe they don't use it cause it's entire interaction feels bugged?

The first target you attack after activating this skill will be knocked down for a short period of time

Nowhere does it state it should affect multiple enemies. And with the BR overhaul, such AOE potential in the new ST build shouldn't even exist.

Just don't make changes that will cause people to react by leaving the game altogether.
That's not smart business sense.

If anyone is gonna quit over a skill rework....hmmmmmm....okay then. Good luck.

Keep in mind, we who are arguing in favour of removal are well aware that current Brutal Charge is also disappointing, much like Thrill of Battle, Deeper Wounds, Hammer-Down, Prey on the Weak are. Here's to hoping they'll also get reworks and buffs, but overall current build is much better than anything before.

[Gandalfy]

yes, it saves the guard when you have 10 on you and you can knock down a few to take some of the pressure off and maybe take out some mobs before they all resume beating on you.....

LEAVE THE BRUTAL CHARGE KNOCKDOWN ALONE

When masses of paying Guardians quit the game because their most fun skill is removed,
SSG will realise that they have made a mistake because they ignored what the players were telling them.

People who play games like this want to be awesome heroes.
Brutal Charge Knockdown does that.
No other skill makes a guardian feel awesome.

All the other skills are comparatively boring, as are the bleeds.

If you take away our one awesome skill, what incentive is left for us to log in?
We may then consider playing some other game where we will have skills that make us feel awesome.

[Decrepify]

When masses of paying Guardians quit the game because their most fun skill is removed,
SSG will realise that they have made a mistake because they ignored what the players were telling them.

People who play games like this want to be awesome heroes.
Brutal Charge Knockdown does that.
No other skill makes a guardian feel awesome.

All the other skills are comparatively boring, as are the bleeds.

If you take away our one awesome skill, what incentive is left for us to log in?
We may then consider playing some other game where we will have skills that make us feel awesome.

Oh, how would you have liked to play when u18-u18.2 was live... if that didn't kill the Guards, I'm certain that removal of the knock down wouldn't even touch them.

Also, fun is subjective. I like Hammer-Down much more. ¯\_(?)_/¯

[siipperi]

Context is important when you provide numbers, irrespective if it was being hit 40 times per second on lower level mobs that are no threat or it was less using legacy gear which is irrelevant for 22.2, the status quo is 22.1 and the re-balance is for 22.2 and beyond, anything outside of that context is disingenuous at best, intentionally misleading at worst.

What context? Like I said that was old screenshot? Anyway old set bonuses are still relevant when rightly used. And now you heal significantly more with prey on the weak than ever before... So there's that...

Just to showcase how OP Prey on the weak in t1 raid (I could do in t2 as well but what ever, faster out this way) and bolstering blocks is in T2CM instances:



Still 20k HPS with just prey on the weak. That's insane. I even peaked higher than that... Not to mentioning how stupid blue line self healing is. Allows guardian to do full room pulls in seregost T2 (or other T2 instances like in picture) and morale not moving (Warriors heart was just used to do more self healing, not because I needed it lol). That screenshot is clear proof self healing is out of control and if guardian had same DPS as on bullroarer at same time it would be broken class. It's good devs have taken route to nerf the self healing in order to buff damage.

Devs need to pay attention to this kind of feedback.
It represents the majority of people who actually play Guardian.
Note that most people on this thread who support removal of Charge knockdown are Creeps or people who don't play Guardian and don't care about it being nerfed to uselessness.
Their opinions should be dismissed.

No, you are just against guardians who been active on guardian community for years. Most of us with several months of /played on guardian...

[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/3zSYgJf.png

Lol. I have 5 months, 2 days, 11h. I'm filthy casual

[Joedangod]

Devs need to pay attention to this kind of feedback.
It represents the majority of people who actually play Guardian.
Note that most people on this thread who support removal of Charge knockdown are Creeps or people who don't play Guardian and don't care about it being nerfed to uselessness.
Their opinions should be dismissed.

You have no proof that this is the majority of Guardians.
I do not play PvMP. At all.
I was one of the main raiding Guardians on Arkenstone during Throne and established several builds that other raiding Guardians went on to copy.
My opinion should not be dismissed, it should be given an amount of weight proportionate to the validity of the arguments I present it with.

The people who tend to post an opinion on something are those who are upset by the decision made. Those who don't care either way will rarely say anything and those in favour won't say much either unless they feel the need to defend the change or in this case what to defend the idea that Brutal Charge should be dropped for something DPS oriented.


In my opinion the Brutal Charge knockdown doesn't make any sense whatsoever for being in redline. There are several reasons for this:

• The changes coming in these beta builds focus on making redline a ST DPS build, as such they have removed a bunch of the AoE interaction on bleeds.
• Guardian already has two traitlines that are focused on AoE mob management in yellow and blue and both these lines have an AoE stun that is obtainable by someone in red, the yellow AoE stun currently comes at minimal cost to DPS.
• Removing Brutal Charge knockdown helps reduce traitline swapping, something they have generally been trying to crack down on.
• Rather than having an arbitrary knockdown the red guardian would benefit greatly from having more traits to boost DPS since it is still pulling around 33% less DPS than red champions.
• Guardians already have multiple single target stuns in red without cross-speccing (To the King, Hammer Down, Bash, Overwhelm).
• If a brief respite from the fight is required Charge makes the Guardian the fastest moving character in combat anyway. Just run away?
• Cataclysmic Shout is way cooler to use than Brutal Charge ever was. (It makes you roar and explode in a flash of light which stuns everything around you, come on).

[Grimlir83]

Knockdown is funny, sometimes hilarious, for a large number of guardians. How many times did friends where amused by it in instances ?
I understand players who would be a little disappointed.
But
this question is far less important than two others :
- what will there be instead of self healing of Pray of the weak ?
- what bonus will there be on guardian's belt
I think these two questions need to be resolved first, and then red guardian will be more interesting to play (or with less bugs at least). With or without knockdown. And devs will be able to continue their work on another classes, such as captains and beornings (mine is really waiting for such a work !).
Playing a red guardian will be much more impacted by those questions.
I understand that knockdown should be removed because devs want to make the red guardian a single target dps (and not in order to be competitive with champion in raid, it is clearly written in patch notes and this should be understood by some folks here : don't try to make the red guardian another thing that is intended, this is not the subject).
And I understand if it should not be removed because lot of guardians love it.
But why not making it a single target knockdown, if the dev want make the red guardian a single target DPS (moderate DPS and no other thing) ?

[Rognomli]

Are we really still arguing about Brutal Charge? It's just a skill guys, not even one pivotal or overly representative of the class in general. Sure it made pulling hordes of mobs easier and fun, but I wouldn't mind having it replaced with something DPS related.

I also doubt that such a change to one skill will make people go away. People roll guards to tank, everything else is tertiary. If anything, the fact that DPS is being overhauled should bring back people who might had stopped when Mordor launched because they couldn't kill anything.

P.S I'm not much for role-playing, but I feel that being an aggro machine on the battlefield and drawing the ire of every single enemy you encounter topples anything else in terms of "heroic", especially Brutal Charge

[Decrepify]

P.S I'm not much for role-playing, but I feel that being an aggro machine on the battlefield and drawing the ire of every single enemy you encounter topples anything else in terms of "heroic", especially Brutal Charge

One of the reasons I play a tanking class in all MMOs. A massive, badass wall of steel that holds back any danger. Can't be more heroic than that.