Class Update - Guardians

[siipperi]

Care to elaborate why it breaks instance mechanics ? its not like its the only aoe stun in the game and u said it yourself it has a long cd.

Furthermore proper groups don't take red line guards into instances anyway unless its an instance that is easy at which point group makeup/an aoe stun on a lengthily cd doesn't make a difference.

from my point of view the stun on brutal charge only makes those of us who play a spec that is generally considered bad have something that can be considered useful in some situations.

Btw as someone who's main focus is landscape its far from garbage, will it suddenly make it unplayable ? no, the same way leaving it as is doesn't make it game breaking.

Yes, many do have aoe stuns but Brutal charge is not a stun. And no I don't share exploits on forums.

[dawaaagh]

Yes, many do have aoe stuns but Brutal charge is not a stun. And no I don't share exploits on forums.

Right its not a stun but kd, basically the same thing. In coordinated groups using voice chat it serves the same purpose, in pug groups a kd (if it shares the same duration) as a stun will be better no doubt as errors are more prone.


As for "exploits" isn't this a bug problem not a skill problem ? if your whole argument is based around the skill being abused in an instance or multiple instances then its the instance "bug" that needs fixing not the skill, maybe you should report this exploit/bug instead of trying to force your argument onto others who may not be in the pro club where exploits are shared around in order to make life easier.

[Gandalfy]

I'm really happy to see that shield smash is working so well. My guard has a 1-H weapon, so I don't have a problem, but....

You missed the point so I am laughing even harder.
All you did was prove my point which was part of a larger conversation about what Guards with 2H weapons will do with no AOE stun.

On live server a lot of redline guards have 2H weapons so they will have to change to get this performance and have AOE stun.

Nothing you are showing changes that.

The casual player who doesn't have more than 1 legendary weapon is going to get driven away by a total revamp of the Guard which leaves them out in the cold.
Having to change from a tactical build to a physical mastery build is some unwanted work for even guards who have 1H weapons.
Having lower game population isn't good for anyone.

Red line should continue to be a viable way to play for people who have 2H weapons. Thanks to demos like this they will feel double left out now (lower damage AND no AOE stun)

This is an excellent point.
Why should a player who has invested almost 500 Anfalas Scrolls of Empowerment (and umpteen starlit crystals) etc into a 2H weapon now be forced to make a 1H weapon just to access the shield bash stun?
The programmer could simply copy the code for Brutal charge as it is in Live now (functioning perfectly with no bugs) into the new Bullroarer build and save hundreds of Guardians the pain of losing their favorite skill and having to create new LIs from scratch.

Every possible reason to remove Charge knockdown has been shown to be invalid.
Unless they give us a valuable skill to replace it (such as full stealth) then players will be upset that the Guardian is being nerfed and many will quit playing.

If they want to remove a skill, why not Hammer down, or one of the other useless ST skills that don't give a bleed?
Hammer down does a puny amount of damage and has a 1 minute CD, so is practically useless for DPS.

As far as what makes a hunter fun to play - it's the huge variety of skills.
To give us only DPS skills as red guardians makes for boring gameplay.
That's what made charge knockdown so interesting and fun - there is no other skill in red line like it.
It adds variety and strategy to the gameplay.

[Decrepify]

This is an excellent point.
Why should a player who has invested almost 500 Anfalas Scrolls of Empowerment (and umpteen starlit crystals) etc into a 2H weapon now be forced to make a 1H weapon just to access the shield bash stun?
The programmer could simply copy the code for Brutal charge as it is in Live now (functioning perfectly with no bugs) into the new Bullroarer build and save hundreds of Guardians the pain of losing their favorite skill and having to create new LIs from scratch.

Again, you're basing your argument on "A lot of people like it." and yet I don't see a lot of people. Not everyone shares the same sentiment about Brutal Charge. Yeah, losing a stun sucks, but it didn't belong in the line to begin with.

Every possible reason to remove Charge knockdown has been shown to be invalid.
Unless they give us a valuable skill to replace it (such as full stealth) then players will be upset that the Guardian is being nerfed and many will quit playing.

Shown invalid by whom? You? What? No, it wasn't. At best, there are as many reasons to keep it as to remove it, when you count in the bias. Count in the facts, and it makes no sense to have such a potent AOE disable on a ST line. LUL Stealth. I can only see 5 people on the forums being upset, and asking almost every Guardian I could find on Arkenstone agreed on losing knockdown in favour of a lot more DPS.

If they want to remove a skill, why not Hammer down, or one of the other useless ST skills that don't give a bleed?
Hammer down does a puny amount of damage and has a 1 minute CD, so is practically useless for DPS.

Again, no it isn't. I've had regular 55k+ hits on BR during the first build. It's a very damaging, high crit skill that stuns when enemy is under 50% morale. Biased again.
Edit: Line is shifting to single target (why on earth would you remove a ST skill then), and ironically you'll still have better AOE DPS than on live.

As far as what makes a hunter fun to play - it's the huge variety of skills.
To give us only DPS skills as red guardians makes for boring gameplay.

No, it's the fact that since time immemorial, people liked ranged combat in video-games, especially MMOs. Quick, deadly, efficient.

That's what made charge knockdown so interesting and fun - there is no other skill in red line like it.
It adds variety and strategy to the gameplay.

There also any other skills and traits like Shield-Smash, Disorientation, TTK, Bolster, Tenderize, Radiate....
Just cause they're there, doesn't make them interesting. Too much bias happening here to make a reasonable argument at this point. See what I've quoted Vastin say earlier. Their game, their rules, and we Guardians that've been to hell and back in the past years fully applaud this change.

[Aelir]

O. M. G. . . Oh my guardian. Why is Shield Use Rank disappearing on LI belts? It is a useful stat, one I've come to rely on a lot in my sword & board build. It actually makes shield-based dps viable - I mean, by Guardian dps standards...

Upgraded with starlit crystals on First Age LI, this stat is wonderful. Instead of relying on weapon and hitting like a wet noodle, my entire Guardian build is based around this stat. Shield use ranked up + shield spikes + some extra crit adds up to an interesting and exciting alternative while leveling or questing on landscape. Why remove this ability to rank up shield dps? Please reconsider... don't just delete it.

Shield Use is effectively obsolete for the time being (weapon damage applies instead). We're evaluating what to do with it currently as it has never scaled properly with our other systems.

I confess my guardian is not at level cap yet. But I wanted to give this feedback based on extensively playing my guard for years with an exp-disabler, so I still gear him out with best-in-slot gear and maxed First Age LIs (at level 60, 65, 75, now approaching 85). Shield Use Rank is very serviceable and efficient at least in this range, contributing decently to shield dps. If it's a matter of scaling poorly at cap, it really deserves to be looked into and given another chance with some tweaks, don't just throw away the baby with the bathwater pls...

The *only* possible rank stat on LI belts I could see it being replaced with is Incoming Healing Rank, but as that is not happening... it is really really not worth abandoning Shield Use just because it needs some extra love at cap. Give it some luv in next round of class changes, keep it.

Preserve Brutal Charge Knockdown in some form

I agree with this. The only thing that made Brutal Charge useful to me was its knockdown effect.

[Decrepify]

Why is Shield Use Rank disappearing on LI belts? It is a useful stat, one I've come to rely on a lot in my sword & board build. It actually makes shield-based dps viable - I mean, by Guardian dps standards...

According to the devs, it wasn't working properly. And to some extend, it can be seen on live. It increased damage of skills that aren't tied to shields (War-Chant).
If you look at what the devs said, damage of shield-related skills is tied to the weapon, with the damage on the skill itself being greatly increased on Bullroarer. I was managing to parse up to 8-10k DPS with a S&B set-up on a single target, which is more than you can get on live in with a 2H weapon. Damage is, again, greatly increased.

I agree with this. The only thing that made Brutal Charge useful to me was its knockdown effect.

Even amongst us that are in favour of removal the Brutal Charge knickdown aren't satisfied with what's on display. We're hoping for changes, but removing the knockdown was a step in the right direction for sure.

[Madmanthief]

It's not a step in the right direction for others, just those that use yellow and blue spec mostly(see their own comments). These are also the same people that want to see self heals removed from red and leave it with 1 or 2 heals that may or may not be good. These others as well want to see red traits that they like placed in that spec for easier access while putting yellow and blue traits farther down in the respective trees to gimp red spec players.

It's all for purely selfish reasons and they are not thinking about compromises that may be for the benefit to the whole guardian community.

[Decrepify]

It's not a step in the right direction for others, just those that use yellow and blue spec mostly(see their own comments). These are also the same people that want to see self heals removed from red and leave it with 1 or 2 heals that may or may not be good. These others as well want to see red traits that they like placed in that spec for easier access while putting yellow and blue traits farther down in the respective trees to gimp red spec players.

It's all for purely selfish reasons and they are not thinking about compromises that may be for the benefit to the whole guardian community.

You cannot have all-in-one trait tree. It breaks the game on multiple of levels.
You want good DPS and self-healing/self-sustain and CC and overall sturdiness in one line? No other class does that even remotely, excluding Wardens, which are gimped in their own ways.

How are they for selfish reasons? In what sense? We all play the same class, same trait lines, though with different ideas. Please go on to the test server, make characters at various levels and witness yourself how much better the current build is going. It's not perfect, there are things to finish and workout a bit, but people should learn to give and receive. You cannot have both in a balance pass.
Yeah, it sucks that self-healing is gone, it sucks the knockdown is being removed. But what we are getting instead is something which was gone ever since Helms Deep revamps launched. We're getting a proper landscape line that no longer depends on a weird gimmick with Radiate and POTW to damage and survive. With 30 trait points, you can have a much better experience leveling (no more single bleed that tiered up, dealing low damage, reliance on crits which just DON'T happen at lower levels, the need for Radiate to spread the bad bleed). Yeah, it sucks that now if you pull 10 mobs, you'll most likely die unless you actually know what you're doing, not exactly friendly, but again, aside from ONE OTHER class in the game that can do that, it's not fair towards others.

This game is balanced around grouping, not soloing. Red line should not the go-to reason to make a Guardian.

For over 2 years, outspoken Guardians have been asking for buffs, with various drafts, builds etc. as proposals. And we were more than happy to get rid of the self-healing and Brutal Charge knockdown in favour of a massive damage boost. No need for healing in a fight because a proper fight should not last over a minute with a single mob. I genuinely wonder how many of you who are asking for reverts have been on Bullroarer and given feedback as to why something won't work now. Also, you're not compromising with us at all, it's the devs. At the end of the day, our sayings can only go as far as they see what the grand vision should be. If they decide to return/keep the knockdown, that's arguably fine. I will focus making the best of the new and improved tools I was given to finally enjoy landscape on my Guardian after so many years.

If you're still peddling your points, times they are a changin'... .

[Hlifhrim]

That's a lot of pages of nothing. If you want to provide useful feedback, log into Bullroarer, test the changes and then share your opinion. You don't speak for anybody but yourself, unless somebody explicitly agrees to that. Saying "a large portion of Guardian community will be upset" or "a large portion of Guardian community will not even notice" means nothing. You don't know that. You may feel that way, but you don't know that. A 14 vs 9 or 28 vs 18 means nothing. Now if those 14 and 9 all actually test the changes and provide good, useful feedback, preferably with test data, that will have value.

Here's what useful feedback might look like (although I expect it would be quite a bit more elaborate):

"I logged my lvl XX Guardian and spent two hours questing in XX. TTK was quite a bit shorter than on Live, but the lack of knockdown on Brutal Charge made pulling 10 mobs at once next to impossible."

"I spent three hours deeding in West Rohan and I can say that the nerf to self-healing is rather noticeable and introduces a lot of undesirable down-time between pulls."

"Removing the knockdown was the right move. It cannot be used to exploit certain instances and I didn't feel any squishier thanks to shorter TTK. I asked my creep buddies to test PvMP with me and they all agree that the removal of knockdown from Brutal Charge coupled with increased damage makes fights both more interesting and fair."

Once again: Test the changes, then provide feedback. Give examples of what you tested and how the changes affected it.

[siipperi]

It's not a step in the right direction for others, just those that use yellow and blue spec mostly(see their own comments). These are also the same people that want to see self heals removed from red and leave it with 1 or 2 heals that may or may not be good. These others as well want to see red traits that they like placed in that spec for easier access while putting yellow and blue traits farther down in the respective trees to gimp red spec players.

It's all for purely selfish reasons and they are not thinking about compromises that may be for the benefit to the whole guardian community.

Guardian by design should not be sustained self healer class, just look the history, how many variants have this option? Just HDs versio of guardian that is by far worst designed guardian. If someone wants sustaining self healing out of their tank they should roll warden. Its simple as that.

[Macdui]

I would say I'm in the for camp for Brutal charge.

Have it cancel if you switch trait lines though if that's to do with the exploit/abuse, make it a longer CD so it's very much an emergency skill.

I'd prefer that no class gains advantage form trait switch prior to a pull. Makes class/tree balancing easier.

Vastin's been focusing on his hunter parses. Is he also laying down a bunch of yellow traps before the pull, double tapping focus after camo and burn hot and putting on his HS reset gear? Ah, no.

Instead we get a 50% bottomed CD to tree swap that's just annoying without achieving anything.


I'm loathed to be put in either camp just because each group has opinions I don't necessarily agree with much of the time

Keep it and limit it.

Mac

[Joedangod]

I would say I'm in the for camp for Brutal charge.

Worth noting that nobody wants the current form of Brutal Charge. Some people want it to be an AoE knockdown, others want a replacement trait that contributes to DPS.

[siipperi]

I would say I'm in the for camp for Brutal charge.

Have it cancel if you switch trait lines though if that's to do with the exploit/abuse, make it a longer CD so it's very much an emergency skill.

I'd prefer that no class gains advantage form trait switch prior to a pull. Makes class/tree balancing easier.

Vastin's been focusing on his hunter parses. Is he also laying down a bunch of yellow traps before the pull, double tapping focus after camo and burn hot and putting on his HS reset gear? Ah, no.

Instead we get a 50% bottomed CD to tree swap that's just annoying without achieving anything.


I'm loathed to be put in either camp just because each group has opinions I don't necessarily agree with much of the time

Keep it and limit it.

Mac

I don't think there is but one camp that is in lines of "ah my gawd we losing stuff" other party is just bunch of people who have attitude of classes change, nothing wrong in that... We lose some of stuff and gain some, nothing meaningful magnitude to get triggered about. Insignificant loss compared to real fundamental changes of being done to the class. Gaining DPS, losing self heals, changing bleed dynamics, those are changes for which people should get triggered off if anything. And provide feedback on those aspects of the class, not flood 3 pages worth of feedback about who is against and who's not against of insignificant trait.

Why you need to double tap focus to do parse on training dummy...?

[Onno]

Preserve Brutal Charge Knockdown in some form (15 total supporters):

Me too :-)

As somebody said earlier: I think the knockdown is very useful (and fun!) when solo questing on my guardian.
I don't think it's a valuable argument that you can get a knockdown effect from another line,
especially since this option isn't available while leveling your guardian. I think the vast majority of casual players will be pleased with keeping the effect.

Edit:
Btw, I don't understand why it should be okay that a shield-skill from blue line does more damage than any red line skill with a 2h-weapon.
Surely, this can't be as intended. iirc, shield-smash was supposed to generate lots of threat, but not to crit for absurd amount of damage.

[TiberiasKirk]

Me too :-)

As somebody said earlier: I think the knockdown is very useful (and fun!) when solo questing on my guardian.
I don't think it's a valuable argument that you can get a knockdown effect from another line,
especially since this option isn't available while leveling your guardian.

Thanks!

[TiberiasKirk]

Preserve Brutal Charge Knockdown in some form (17 total supporters):

TiberiasKirk
Gandalfy
Brethwyn_EU
dawaagh
Oddessia
SACLOTRO
Grimlir83
Bhorn_EU
Madmantheif
Pontin_Finnberry
Gainandrial
Piff
BigLotroFan
CambellCommunity
Aelir
Macdui
Ono


I also count 10 posters against (not making a list of them) and as many as 6 that didn't say anyting either way.
A couple seemed to lean towards supporting keeping it, but didn't definitively say it or ask for it to stay
in some form.

If I got your position wrong (or you changed your mind), please chime in to have your name taken off or added to the list.
Its like a petition, I think its important for the Devs to see it.

[Grimlir83]

I will not repeat what I have already said, consequently this message will be short.
I am one of the guardians who like the knockdown and who would like to keep it, BUT it will be not a drama if it's removed : red guardian without knockdown and Pow on Bullroarer is better than red guardian one live. On AOE his DPS is better.
I have tried 8 times to pull a lot of mobs in craft instances of Mordor to evaluate against level 115 NPC. In Bhol Rudh for example, it's no longer possible to pull 12 npc like on live and kill them, BUT 7-8 NPC is manageable and it takes a lot shorter time (1/3 I think) to kill them.
I think I will enjoy more the new guardian.

[dawaaagh]

I will not repeat what I have already said, consequently this message will be short.
I am one of the guardians who like the knockdown and who would like to keep it, BUT it will be not a drama if it's removed : red guardian without knockdown and Pow on Bullroarer is better than red guardian one live. On AOE his DPS is better.
I have tried 8 times to pull a lot of mobs in craft instances of Mordor to evaluate against level 115 NPC. In Bhol Rudh for example, it's no longer possible to pull 12 npc like on live and kill them, BUT 7-8 NPC is manageable and it takes a lot shorter time (1/3 I think) to kill them.
I think I will enjoy more the new guardian.

Exactly this, im not going to pretend i have tested the new changes because i don't have the time to do so although i have read them and seen the opinions of kin members who have spent time on bullroarer testing.

i have no doubt the changes are positive and i am very happy however those of us who don't like the brutaI charge change feel given the lengthily cd of the skill a damage gain from it hardly means much where as a KD has a great use, even if it was changed from aoe to st or have a max target cap it would serve a much greater purpose.

And please don't just think of the end game pro raiders who have said the aoe kd can be used as an exploit think of the players who have different play styles and goals.

[Ethirielll]

Having not played on BR I can't say much but looking at parses from friends and others on the forums (Most notably those crazy warden parses) i'd suggest a further damage increase, our damage seems 5-10k off the mark.

[Joedangod]

us who don't like the brutaI charge change feel given the lengthily cd of the skill a damage gain from it hardly means much

What? We're not suggesting there be a damage buff attached to charge; we're suggesting that the Brutal Charge trait be entirely removed and replaced with a +25% base damage on non-bleed skills trait or something in that vein.

At the moment Guardian base damage is fairly low, low enough that a 200k mastery 2h build still generally only hits for around 10k with most of the skills. Brutal Charge is a trait that didn't really fit the theme of the traitline so it's a decent thing to remove in favour of a damage increase.


And please, please go and try out the changes on the next Bullroarer build yourself rather than just echoing the feedback of kinmates. In practice you'll find that Red Guardian is a lot more single target focused now.

[Vastin]

Ok, I've started work on the guardian's 2nd pass. Mostly pretty happy with the first pass, so this is probably mostly going to be modest number tweaks to bring the damage up a bit further.

I am looking at putting the knockdown back on Brutal Charge - it can cause technical issues with boss fights, but generally speaking all modern bosses are immune to it as a result, so.... <shrug>

Aaaand, I have to decide what to do with 'Shield Use', or what to replace it with. Thanks for all your suggestions on this front.

I'm glad to see that some of the shield builds are competitive as AoE builds. I'm a little wary about the sheer number of targets that Guardian's can currently engage however - as much fun as it is to solo lower level dungeons and pull dozens of mobs at once, it also generates a ton of server load to run a 12-man raid for a single character. Also, I'd like to make sure that real 12-man raids have to run multiple tanks to keep everything 'managed'.

Will be looking over this stuff over the next couple days.

-Vastin

[Joedangod]

I am looking at putting the knockdown back on Brutal Charge - it can cause technical issues with boss fights, but generally speaking all modern bosses are immune to it as a result, so.... <shrug>

-Vastin

Have to say I'm very disappointed with this. It does nothing to address what Red Guardian lacks (damage) and instead just goes further to increase what they have in abundance (Survival skills). If you intend to keep the Brutal Charge knockdown and increase Guardian DPS further I would encourage you to look at nerfing Warriors Heart in Redline. The spec is just way too durable to justify much DPS increase right now.

[TiberiasKirk]

Ok, I've started work on the guardian's 2nd pass. Mostly pretty happy with the first pass, so this is probably mostly going to be modest number tweaks to bring the damage up a bit further.

I am looking at putting the knockdown back on Brutal Charge - it can cause technical issues with boss fights, but generally speaking all modern bosses are immune to it as a result, so.... <shrug>

Aaaand, I have to decide what to do with 'Shield Use', or what to replace it with. Thanks for all your suggestions on this front.

I'm glad to see that some of the shield builds are competitive as AoE builds. I'm a little wary about the sheer number of targets that Guardian's can currently engage however - as much fun as it is to solo lower level dungeons and pull dozens of mobs at once, it also generates a ton of server load to run a 12-man raid for a single character. Also, I'd like to make sure that real 12-man raids have to run multiple tanks to keep everything 'managed'.

Will be looking over this stuff over the next couple days.

-Vastin

Incoming healing on the belt would be great. Know your busy and we're probably overcritical lots of times.
Those that really want to keep brutal charge knockdown appreciate that you are considering keeping it.

Thinks for thanking of us.

[Decrepify]

Ok, I've started work on the guardian's 2nd pass. Mostly pretty happy with the first pass, so this is probably mostly going to be modest number tweaks to bring the damage up a bit further.

I am looking at putting the knockdown back on Brutal Charge - it can cause technical issues with boss fights, but generally speaking all modern bosses are immune to it as a result, so.... <shrug>

Aaaand, I have to decide what to do with 'Shield Use', or what to replace it with. Thanks for all your suggestions on this front.

I'm glad to see that some of the shield builds are competitive as AoE builds. I'm a little wary about the sheer number of targets that Guardian's can currently engage however - as much fun as it is to solo lower level dungeons and pull dozens of mobs at once, it also generates a ton of server load to run a 12-man raid for a single character. Also, I'd like to make sure that real 12-man raids have to run multiple tanks to keep everything 'managed'.

Will be looking over this stuff over the next couple days.

-Vastin

Disappointing that you're considering giving back the knockdown on brutal charge, but I suppose it's not wrong to do so. Some of us hoped for something more interesting.
Additionally, what's happening to Prey in the Weak, Thrill of Battle and Deeper Wounds? All 3 of them are pretty underwhelming and....well, they suck. Plain and simple.
We don't need another power-on-crit (POTW), the heal on Thrill of Battle is a joke and Deeper Wounds extra bleed ticks are not needed since you almost always cycle through parry responses.
Regarding active skills, are there going to be buffs to Hammer-Down and Honourable Combat? For capstone traits, they are both meh, with Hammer-Down being slightly ahead (only if it crits). Also, Overwhelm needs a better option, +5% Attack Duration debuff is just bad.
Regarding legacies, what's happening to Overwhelm damage legacy? Seems mediocre at best in the current shape. Also, can you tell us if Insult to Injury works with the bleeds?
Last, but certainly not least, please look into making Warriors Fortitude flat bonuses better (in blue it gives 900ish incoming heal, which is too small; red gives 400 physical mastery, which is like a drop in the ocean in current stats; yellow also gives mastery, which seems odd for a tanking line.)

Thank you for reading.

[Mirnir]

I am looking at putting the knockdown back on Brutal Charge - it can cause technical issues with boss fights, but generally speaking all modern bosses are immune to it as a result, so.... <shrug>


-Vastin

Personally, I think that if it returns, the Brutal Charge setbonus knockdown should expire. Give it a 12s duration, same as the speed buff with the trait. I don't think that should increase with the To The Rescue trait.
For the buff to persist semi-permanently feels wrong, though it is kinda fun to use.

Edit:

...it can cause technical issues with boss fights, but generally speaking all modern bosses are immune to it as a result, so.... <shrug>

-Vastin

Are we missing out on mechanics and cc options in boss fights because of this?