Class Update - Hunters

[Tatharil]

Dear Vastin,

I'd really like to know, what your plans are for Trapper of Foes. At least which role you think it should fulfill. Is it still meant to be support (CC and offensive debuffs) and bleeds?

Not working on yellow line and no words about plans for yellow, but giving things, that belong to yellow's role, to red and blue did lead to some emotional reactions.

A few words about the intended path yellow is going to take, are much appreciated. It gives us, Trapper of Foes, the chance to gather our thoughts and make suggestions.

[Macroscian]

Dear Vastin,

I'd really like to know, what your plans are for Trapper of Foes. At least which role you think it should fulfill. Is it still meant to be support (CC and offensive debuffs) and bleeds?

Not working on yellow line and no words about plans for yellow, but giving things, that belong to yellow's role, to red and blue did lead to some emotional reactions.

A few words about the intended path yellow is going to take, are much appreciated. It gives us, Trapper of Foes, the chance to gather our thoughts and make suggestions.

I think the previous commentary did not mean 'yeah, that's next' but that it is so far off the known issues to-do that there is not even a hint of an outline of a postit note of a memo to have a meeting about maybe getting some ideas collected.

EDIT Day after, re-reading the bickering about how people feel regarding the much needed nerf of Barrage and reporting a few very random oddballs posting demotivationals to start or perpetuate fights. This has been ugly. Don't do that.

In any case I realized these changes and proposed changes will have some fallout on yellow.
The reasons are well formulated.
We know why the reduction in effects are needed for other trait trees.

What I can't understand is why this is not changed within those trait trees.
"Slot blue line and you will get reduced damage over time"
instead of
"Hunter will get lowered damage over time"
(as an example, I read all this thread and can't predict what the final result will be)

Boosting Lingering Wound and the LW leg will have zero effect on the other hunter trait trees, by the way. Say you get 7-8 damage ticks instead. Higher chance to proc and tier. Alternately let it stack. 2 x LW effects instead of maybe a slightly higher effect (unless the effect time runs out as it barely lasts longer than the animation to fire another LW with one skill in-between).

[Vastin]

Just a reminder to please focus on your own personal feedback and experiences with the class updates - ideally after you have tried out a couple builds on Bullroarer. Interpersonal sniping, is, alas, not helpful feedback and takes time out of our day to skim over and ignore.

Polite, well reasoned feedback on your experience with the game is what gets read.

-Vastin

[Tatharil]

Higher chance to proc and tier. Alternately let it stack. 2 x LW effects instead of maybe a slightly higher effect (unless the effect time runs out as it barely lasts longer than the animation to fire another LW with one skill in-between).

LW always applyies it's bleed. always has. If it doesn't your shot missed or bleed got resisted-> get finesse.

Now to beta #4:

Traps: The damage increase is a appreciated sign of good will. It will help at soloing, but won't help in our supporting role. Traps are still very clunky to use especially in fellowships.



traps with and without trap damage legacy. It still has zero effect on the main part... damage over time.

Here the other bleeds in comparison. Red and especially blue still have the stronger bleeds. Blue's Barbed Arrow is even stronger. Easy to trait both dot legacies AND blue has barbed hindrance.





left: LW with max legacy rank, right: without legacy.
LW legacy still needs to be looked at! It adds meagre 15% damage, but to the initial hit only, which is very low. It was okish on live, where LW has an initial bleed tick, that was increased by the legacy. With this initial tick gone, the legacy is pointless.

Strength stance: The new strength stance doesn't improve LW and other bleeds anymore.

[Tatharil]

Bugs:

Lw tiering is still bugged.


It tiers up, but damage stays the same.

Penetrating Shot debuff is still bugged.


Armour Rend overwrites the op and wrong placed red debuff.


Conclusion from Trapper of Foes perspective:

Scaling trap damage is an appreciated sign of good will, but doesn't solve any of the issues, yellow has.

The question remains: What are your intentions with Trapper of Foes? Which role shall it fulfill in your eyes?

Is support and bleeds still yellow's role? Why then did you make it harder for yourself to balance it by giving the strong PS debuff to red and blue the strongest bleeds?

Is it meant to be a solo line? Why should anyone use it? blue does higher damage, can kite, has stronger selfheals....

If Trapper of Foes is still meant to fulfill the role support (CC, offensive debuffs) and bleeds: here are some ideas how to improve that role and make it worthwhile in fellowships:
https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...88#post7834888

[siipperi]

Vastin, are you going to increase Cry of The Hunter bubble? (How you handled guardian's warrior's heart bubble was pretty good)

Cry of the hunter -bubble is at the moment ~2k bubble. If it would even shield 10-15% of hunters morale it would make it useful, also animation and time it takes get off from stunned stage takes ages.

[Vastin]

Vastin, are you going to increase Cry of The Hunter bubble?

Short answer - Yes. Non healer bubble type effects are generally being transitioned over to %morale effects.

Long answer - Not quite yet. I'm down to the wire on this round of class changes and I need to get onto other tasks for a bit.

That's not to say that there won't be a few more balance tweaks coming soon - but mostly I'll have to restrict myself to very simple/quick changes like tweaks to skill damage or cooldowns, not so much with mechanical reworks to how skills function, at least until the next opening in my schedule for more serious class work.

So.... you have something to look forwards to?

-Vastin

[Vastin]

The question remains: What are your intentions with Trapper of Foes? Which role shall it fulfill in your eyes?

This is something we're still discussing in-house.

Traps are thematically interesting and have cool effects - but they tend to be rather mechanically clunky, requiring careful setup and teamwork to make effective use of in a group setting.

They can also be quite powerful solo where a lone player has a lot more control over the scenario, but they tend to be a very slow way to grind landscape.

We could certainly improve their role in either case, but regardless of which way we go, it tends to be a complex skill set to work with behind the scenes, so we have to have a plan for it that we're confident of before we commit to it, because it's going to be quite a bit of work to get it right. In the meantime we can probably squeeze in some additional upgrades to the basic stats of traps (dps, cooldowns, etc) to make them a bit more competitive over the next few months, until we get a chance to more seriously update the line.

-Vastin

[Tatharil]

This is something we're still discussing in-house.

Traps are thematically interesting and have cool effects - but they tend to be rather mechanically clunky, requiring careful setup and teamwork to make effective use of in a group setting.

They can also be quite powerful solo where a lone player has a lot more control over the scenario, but they tend to be a very slow way to grind landscape.

We could certainly improve their role in either case, but regardless of which way we go, it tends to be a complex skill set to work with behind the scenes, so we have to have a plan for it that we're confident of before we commit to it, because it's going to be quite a bit of work to get it right. In the meantime we can probably squeeze in some additional upgrades to the basic stats of traps (dps, cooldowns, etc) to make them a bit more competitive over the next few months, until we get a chance to more seriously update the line.

-Vastin

Thanks for your answer. I hope yelow keeps it's role in the end. After helms Deep killed LM fun (Flanking, melee, Windlore.....) yellow hunter was my last refuge, and I'm not the only one.

While soloing traps are ok, but in groups they aren't handy. For groups another, more reliable way to apply debuffs is needed. You can't make traps work efficiently in fellowships. Explosive Arrow/Explosive Powder and Wounded Prey come to mind, 2 rather weak/useless traits.
Explosive Arrow and deadly decoy, they both explode. But the decoy applies the good debuff, and the Arrow is the weakest AoE Shot there is (Split Shot and RoA are stronger). Why not add decoys debuff to explosive Arrow/powder trait? Instead of adding a meagre bonus damage to Merciful Shot, why not add an incoming damage debuff to the LW cashout effect instead?

[Siddharta]

Upshot legacy doesn't work..

[siipperi]

Short answer - Yes. Non healer bubble type effects are generally being transitioned over to %morale effects.

Long answer - Not quite yet. I'm down to the wire on this round of class changes and I need to get onto other tasks for a bit.

That's not to say that there won't be a few more balance tweaks coming soon - but mostly I'll have to restrict myself to very simple/quick changes like tweaks to skill damage or cooldowns, not so much with mechanical reworks to how skills function, at least until the next opening in my schedule for more serious class work.

So.... you have something to look forwards to?

-Vastin

Cool, hopefully you can cut down the animation while you are at it. Especially on ettenmoors, it's basically just faster to wait out stun to clear than use cry of the hunter because animation lock it puts on the player. Weak % bubble is nice because it's long cooldown skill and can't be targeted on other players. I do understand there needs to be priorities and tweaking rotation perfect is significantly more important than this but good to know it's on the table.


I tried Strength vs precision stance damage differences and by no means I'm top hunter (because I alt one, raid geared but still). It doesn't look it's still worth using strength stance. Amount of criticals you score in generally + multiplier on precision + increased generation of focus is really hard to pass. Maybe if strength had another 5% of damage. I used legacy and so on so nothing was missing from that front. For lower levels I can totally see it being go to already but for max level hunter, no. Hopefully other hunters chime in on this one who tested it more than just briefly.

This is something we're still discussing in-house.

Traps are thematically interesting and have cool effects - but they tend to be rather mechanically clunky, requiring careful setup and teamwork to make effective use of in a group setting.

They can also be quite powerful solo where a lone player has a lot more control over the scenario, but they tend to be a very slow way to grind landscape.

We could certainly improve their role in either case, but regardless of which way we go, it tends to be a complex skill set to work with behind the scenes, so we have to have a plan for it that we're confident of before we commit to it, because it's going to be quite a bit of work to get it right. In the meantime we can probably squeeze in some additional upgrades to the basic stats of traps (dps, cooldowns, etc) to make them a bit more competitive over the next few months, until we get a chance to more seriously update the line.

-Vastin

I tested them on landscape. Really powerful but I guess that's OK because blue/red lines are so good in comparison. 2 Traps is enough to kill normal landscape mob without using other skills in dale-lands as high mastery user (no trap legacy).

I hope you can really give yellow hunter some real CC ability with ability to perma CC something and only in yellow line available buffs (so no cross traiting). They had that CC ability and if that CC ability is going to be focus of the line they really need to be better on basics like this.

[Siddharta]

Here's what i've got after ~5-6 parses

I stopped using Upshot cause it seems to me not worth a waste of Full Focus now =>> Pen Shot Spam instead of Upshot
[Strength stance, 220k Mastery, 69k Crit, Fire Oil] ; No old jewelry\sets

[Giliodor]

Second parse. No old jewellery/sets, either.



Which doesn't seem much lower than the previous build of Bullroarer. I think this is fine, but I hope red line champions get buffed so that they are on par with this kind of DPS. I think the damage on Upshot should be slightly higher, and the damage on Pen Shot should perhaps be slightly lower, to make it more clear that Upshot should be used at 9 focus. Currently, it's a bit of a toss up.

[Kander]

About beta 4 initial thoughts:
Precision vs Strength: We score nearly 50% crits, precision gives 1 focus (let's ignore it) and 37% crit magnitude. With changes to strength those 15% you can get translates into something like 8% true damage. Theres no way anyone is gonna use strength unless you literally double its current effect to make them both equally viable (and still I'm not sure if the +1 focus generation and increased quick shot crit chance will work in favour of precision).
Upshot should be ok after legacy gets fixed but I'd suggest moving some legacies from the bow to the sword, atm we got only 3 useful dps legacies on sword and more than 9 on bow, maybe put 6+6?
Haven't tested on tavern dummies yet but damage seems to be slightly lower to what it was beta 3.
I'll update after I parse a bit.

[Siddharta]

Switched to Precision Stance, first 2 parses were around 55k (with Upshot traited)

Strength stance need some workaround, looks quite bad now compare to Precision

[Macroscian]

LW always applyies it's bleed.

The bleed gets increased damage if it is applied again, is the percent chance removed and it is increased every time? I never noticed, I am sorry.

Traps are thematically interesting and have cool effects

Not all that much consideration required, as long as the change is made within the yellow tree. A hunter would need to slot yellow in order for the boost or effect to be available. In this manner, there is no risk of it making other trees further overpowered.

As yellow was not supposed to catch a change, I don't worry too much about commenting without being on BR. I'm away far out on the countryside working almost all hours a while.
Lingering Wound must not have lowered damage or the greatly increased lndscape mob morale renders the tree an impossible to quest with. The very start of mordor was a real horror-show, with partials and resists and way over the top mob damage.

[Kander]

Switched to Precision Stance, first 2 parses were around 55k (with Upshot traited)

Strength stance need some workaround, looks quite bad now compare to Precision

I think strength with the magnitude it has on live but with the legacy-like multiplier it has in beta might actually be good.

[Wolf2x]

^^ Lol at milking dps from Phys mit checks, whats the point when we are going to use oil in raid situation anyway



Very disappointed with Strength stance changes, even a very basic thinking on hunters overall crit chance and the crit multiplier from Precision should indicate that Strength stance damage values should be more than half of the Precision bonus, and thats without considering the focus generation (even though its negligible now) and the QS crit chance from Precision....

Anyways, at least the rotation is more fun now compared to live, so thats something

[Alerod]

I'm stably doing damage in the range of 58-60K. But this update is the worst. Absolutely no matter what skills now shoot, you will receive the same result. That's stupid. Return update 3 for hunter class. It was the most stable.

[Arwingel]

just wanna share the dps i am getting 223K mastery 71K crit no old set bonusses and straight precision stance just still seems better but its close imo

https://imgur.com/a/QCDUW0a

what i have noticed is that the upshot legacy is not working properly please fix

https://imgur.com/a/flIpYzZ

but all in all happy with the changes alot more fun to pew pew now

[DKenny]

I seriously doubt the following:

• Generically tweaked most bow skill damage down slightly.
• Reduced Upshot and Barrage more significantly.

is going to fix what's wrong with blue line since the ill-considered cooldown was imposed on barrage. It's pretty obvious that red is all that matters now, although a token gesture was offered to yellow. Nothing to test here, blue is still trash, as it has been in every build - (with the possible exception of ridiculously huge hits possible with barrage 3 in build 3, which apparently has been taken away now).

[Kander]

I seriously doubt the following:



is going to fix what's wrong with blue line since the ill-considered cooldown was imposed on barrage. It's pretty obvious that red is all that matters now, although a token gesture was offered to yellow. Nothing to test here, blue is still trash, as it has been in every build - (with the possible exception of ridiculously huge hits possible with barrage 3 in build 3, which apparently has been taken away now).

Blue is pretty decent for landscape and moors, you can pretty much oneshot nearly everything with a crit of barrage 3. I think they wanted red to deliver highest dps in instances and that's what it's gonna do. It was silly that a trait line that can be used while moving/kiting delivered way more damage than the stationary line supposed to be dps line (afaik all classes use red line for dps).
Also with the removal of barrage spam hunter will no longer have any power issue (I literally did a 15 minutes parse in a galtrev dummy and after that I had my power completely full).

[DKenny]

Blue is pretty decent for landscape and moors, you can pretty much oneshot nearly everything with a crit of barrage 3. I think they wanted red to deliver highest dps in instances and that's what it's gonna do. It was silly that a trait line that can be used while moving/kiting delivered way more damage than the stationary line supposed to be dps line (afaik all classes use red line for dps).
Also with the removal of barrage spam hunter will no longer have any power issue (I literally did a 15 minutes parse in a galtrev dummy and after that I had my power completely full).

You consider all of that to be "good". I do not. Building and maintaining barrage at high tier while managing focus and power issues is what made blue interesting. They've completely destroyed that. Yes, I realize that red has been made "better" and all of the attention has been spent on that. So you and your ilk got exactly what you wanted and what I wanted was destroyed.

[Dirkali]

On landscape, blue line feels better this build than it did last build, especially with the extra focus from the movement buff and a quicker quick shot induction. Two things caught my attention though.

1. Paying attention to Barrage when fighting multiple enemies and kiting is difficult. It tiers up much easier and more reliably on Bullroarer than on live, but unless I focus more on counting my uses of Barrage than on not running into anything while kiting, I can't reliably predict whether it will have a 2 second or 15 second cooldown, which is annoying. Could the graphics change with the tiers be more obvious--maybe a shape or background color change as well as the brightening effect? Or better yet, what if it didn't tier? Instead of tiering, could it just have a decent chance to deal double damage that can't be triggered more than once every 15 seconds? I think being able to use it reliably would be more valuable than the tiered damage requiring careful counting of barrage shots to predict, especially since the counting has to continue for awhile. Trying my builds in Fushaum Tum, I found that keeping track of Barrage without running into things was difficult and more than once I used two barrage shots early in a fight with one group and then unexpectedly triggered the long cooldown on the first barrage shot almost through fighting a new group just as another mob ran up and a second barrage shot would have been nice. If it's going to have the chance for a 15 second cooldown, it'd almost be better if it was always tier 3 with a 15 second cooldown just so it could predictably be used, though I'd much prefer to use it more often and not have to keep track of when it was going to be down for 15 seconds.

2. If the "survivability" skills in blue line aren't going to be able to be used on the move, could they at least not lock us in place? I know burglars can use their antidote on the move, so I know it is possible, and would be ideal in blue line, but if not, could our purge poison in particular let us interrupt it? Right now, if your potions are on cooldown and you happen to think you have time to stop and use purge poison because a wound/poison/fear/disease is killing you faster than the melee mob chasing you, you are locked in place for the duration of the induction/animation of purge poison. This is super annoying if you realize you misjudged the speed of your enemy and decide running further would be more useful than clearing your wound/poison/fear/disease, because you can't move at all--not even to interrupt the skill and get away. The heals can at least be interrupted/cancelled and you can keep running without healing if running is more beneficial, but stopping to use purge poison can quickly become a deadly mistake, since it can't be interrupted/cancelled even if you realize you'd better keep running.

Also noted, yellow line traps were quite helpful in Fushaum Tum this build. Thank you!

[Edlenn]

Building and maintaining barrage at high tier while managing focus and power issues is what made blue interesting.

Agreed, and sorry to see that the barrage cooldown remains, for me it destroys the heart of the blue playstyle. There were certainly other ways to reduce DPS if that was the goal.

Seems to me that the devs are taking a pretty substantial risk introducing this many changes at once, hope it works out.