Class Update - Guardians

[Decrepify]

DPS target dummy says, 'Thou didst maintain a DPS of 31,166.666 over the last three minutes of our momentous conflict!'

Didn't have a CA running at the time, needed dinner. I'll remake the parse later in the evening.

[-Spunkie-]

Quick check on skills and a few bugs/issues, will need to have a proper go at dps to see how it is but quick check seems nice. I see as well you have updated the raid armour set to work with this new hammer down, still not a big fan of the stun on it but we'll see how things go. Tool tip on hammer down is not updated to reflect the stun is usable from 66% with the armour equiped.

Bolster - second part of this never seems to proc: Sets chance for your block response skills to increase mitigations to 100%
Follow Through - trait says 8 targets but shield smash only goes up to 7
Smashing Stab - Bleed applies after a parry but does not apply after a block and parry has been used
Overwhelm - tooltip needs updating

[dselden]

1 min CD on challenge is too long. Make compromise of 45s, the time it used to be back years ago if you didn't trait challenge trait.


Have talk with warden dev. How's it balanced they have 20s cooldown taunt on 10 targets. Or captain with 8 targets on 15s CD. If one class gets nerf on taunt they all need or you just create situation where other 2 classes are significantly better trash tanks than guardian.

Captain is 6, but agreed with your point. 45s would be a better challenge CD while DC should get moved to 30s or so since wardens have 2 forcetaunts on beta instead of 3. Would probably need a force taunt duration buff if you nerfed the cooldown on improved threatening shout.

[dselden]

I'm not sure I quite understand how the "Sets Chance for your Block Response skills to increase your Mitigation to 100%" part of the new Bolster is supposed to work. At rank 5, when using block response skills, I don't seem to see any new buffs or any changes to mitigations outside of Fortification stacks. Over a 3 minute fight in which Shield-Swipe, Bash, Shield-Taunt, and Shield Smash was used, no effects in accordance to this change were observed.

Is this bugged, or is there something I'm missing here?

I think it means that using a shield skill has a 100% chance of increasing fortification.

[Vastin]

Bolster - second part of this never seems to proc: Sets chance for your block response skills to increase mitigations to 100%

That tooltip is seriously bugged.

That appears to be caused by some odd workarounds I had to do behind the scenes to get Bolster working the way I needed it to. I need to override that tooltip to make that second part go away - it's actually meaningless.

-Vastin

[Decrepify]

Smashing Stab - Bleed applies after a parry but does not apply after a block and parry has been used

Working as intended. Bleed is not supposed to apply after all responses, instead damage and FM.

Overwhelm - tooltip needs updating

Agreed. Please change it to Salt the Wound, as it's essentially that. Also, nostalgia.

[Drarin]

That tooltip is seriously bugged.

That appears to be caused by some odd workarounds I had to do behind the scenes to get Bolster working the way I needed it to. I need to override that tooltip to make that second part go away - it's actually meaningless.

-Vastin

Thanks for the clarification Vastin.

[Decrepify]

That tooltip is seriously bugged.

That appears to be caused by some odd workarounds I had to do behind the scenes to get Bolster working the way I needed it to. I need to override that tooltip to make that second part go away - it's actually meaningless.

-Vastin

Vastin, I know you read these, but can you please rename Overwhelm to Salt the Wound now? For nostalgia's sake (and it works pretty much same as old STW did!)

[-Spunkie-]

That tooltip is seriously bugged.

That appears to be caused by some odd workarounds I had to do behind the scenes to get Bolster working the way I needed it to. I need to override that tooltip to make that second part go away - it's actually meaningless.

-Vastin

ah ok thanks for clarifying, can you have a look at tenderize as well this looks bugged, everytime you use sting with this traited it puts tenderize on cooldown it doesnt wait for the 5 stacks, so you can never get to it if your using sting. Also too bad this applies a stack of slashing wound was hoping I found another bleed we could get ticking along with the rest

[Drarin]

Follow Through - trait says 8 targets but shield smash only goes up to 7

It actually seems that each of the blue-line specific AoE skills affect 1 less target than they do on live (and in shield smash's case, trait)

Litany of Defence and Shield Taunt seem to now only affect 4 targets instead of 5.

Could we get some clarity on which skills exactly the follow change should apply:

"Increased number of base targets on several Guardian AoE Skills."

The only skill I've seen so far with its base targets increased in Honourable Combat. All other skills seem to have the same, or fewer, base targets.

[-Spunkie-]

It actually seems that each of the blue-line specific AoE skills affect 1 less target than they do on live (and in shield smash's case, tooltip)

Litany of Defence and Shield Taunt seem to now only affect 4 targets instead of 5.

Yeah just comparing both clients now seems alot of tooltips need to be adjusted

[srit]

anyone have any parses to compare from before the bleed nerf and damage increase overall? I'm looking at hitting the target dummies seems like a possible over all damage nerf?

[-Spunkie-]

I see Shield use rank is still there and didn't see anything in the notes about it, are you still working on it or haven't decided on what to replace it with yet? (increasing rank doesn't effect shield skill damage)

[commdorvis]

By and large I'm happy with these changes, but the increase in base damage is too far. I would love for this to go live but it will be a problem. With a proper mastery build Shield-smash will crit in the range of 80-150k depending on mitigations and everything, but I have seen hits exceeding 100k with low mastery. This would nullify most concerns about AOE threat, but would probably be over-potent in DPS builds and in PVP. I'd suggest lowering this (you could probably cut the crit multiplier in half and we'd still be in good shape, this skill does so much damage because when it crits it gets multiplied more than any other skill, but even if you do nerf it it should still be higher than other skills because Shield-smash is the most fun I've ever had on a Guardian) and increasing Shield-taunt to 7 targets. As for Red-line, I can't provide numbers because I don't have a real DPS build, but it looks very strong to me.

I just noticed Stamp does weapon damage. It's actually going to be a contributor to DPS...

[Decrepify]

By and large I'm happy with these changes, but the increase in base damage is too far. I would love for this to go live but it will be a problem. With a proper mastery build Shield-smash will crit in the range of 80-150k depending on mitigations and everything, but I have seen hits exceeding 100k with low mastery. This would nullify most concerns about AOE threat, but would probably be over-potent in DPS builds and in PVP. I'd suggest lowering this (you could probably cut the crit multiplier in half and we'd still be in good shape, this skill does so much damage because when it crits it gets multiplied more than any other skill, but even if you do nerf it it should still be higher than other skills because Shield-smash is the most fun I've ever had on a Guardian) and increasing Shield-taunt to 7 targets. As for Red-line, I can't provide numbers because I don't have a real DPS build, but it looks very strong to me.

I just noticed Stamp does weapon damage. It's actually going to be a contributor to DPS...

Uhm....with a fully developed, completely glass cannon my DPS was about 31.1k. I don't think anyone eith any sense can call Guardians overpowered in red line. Also, I'd love to see a 100k shield smash hit with low mastery, please provide evidence.

[siipperi]

Uhm....with a fully developed, completely glass cannon my DPS was about 31.1k. I don't think anyone eith any sense can call Guardians overpowered in red line. Also, I'd love to see a 100k shield smash hit with low mastery, please provide evidence.

On dummy maybe or irrelevant T1 level 105 mob.

[srit]

By and large I'm happy with these changes, but the increase in base damage is too far. I would love for this to go live but it will be a problem. With a proper mastery build Shield-smash will crit in the range of 80-150k depending on mitigations and everything, but I have seen hits exceeding 100k with low mastery. This would nullify most concerns about AOE threat, but would probably be over-potent in DPS builds and in PVP. I'd suggest lowering this (you could probably cut the crit multiplier in half and we'd still be in good shape, this skill does so much damage because when it crits it gets multiplied more than any other skill, but even if you do nerf it it should still be higher than other skills because Shield-smash is the most fun I've ever had on a Guardian) and increasing Shield-taunt to 7 targets. As for Red-line, I can't provide numbers because I don't have a real DPS build, but it looks very strong to me.

I just noticed Stamp does weapon damage. It's actually going to be a contributor to DPS...

Even if that's the hit its doing how often? was it a lucky crit ? whats the occurrence ? classes hit that hard on a regular bases. what is your DPS over a 5 min fight?

[commdorvis]

It depends on what you're testing on, but with no buffs active, no +damage rune, and 123k mastery I hit for 77,276: https://imgur.com/a/2GNGDVA

Under other conditions a Guardian hitting with Shield-smash for 120k+ wouldn't be unusual.

[BotLike]

I was getting 50-60k crits on seregost t2 low mastery tank build.
I think shield smash damage is on a great spot , it needs time to build , it can get B/P/E or partial and we really need the aggro boost.
Please increase the target count back to 8+....It's currently 7 , i am assuming this is a bug.

As for challenge , i can live with the target count nerf , propably the right call , but the cooldown feels terrible to me after playing...

Smashing stab dot is ..... weak , but i can't say i care much.

Thank you so much for the stamp boost , one of the best changes along with catch and breath and stoic bubble , much love : )

Shield use rank ? Fat incoming healing rating inc plz ?

PS. There are a few problems but Guardians are lucky to have you Vastin , other classes won't like this class balance the same... Most likely hate it.

[Decrepify]

Under other conditions a Guardian hitting with Shield-smash for 120k+ wouldn't be unusual.

Actually it would. Very well would. Build you are using, just by looking at your morale, is either a landscape build or moorbs build. 2 parts of the game where balance is a weird thing to deal with.
Still, only way to hit 100k+ in your build is debuffs and oathies, and you wont get that in landscape. Also, moors mits/dmg reductions.

Guards hit harder now, but nowhere near hard to rival others.

[vleydwyyn]

Tested a bit today on BR, I had an issue where my bleeds on the target were disappearing. I think it was happening whenever 1 bleed dropped off , all of them would vanish. Also the damage for different skills is kind of wacky, Guard's ward, sting, stagger and sweeping cut (and maybe more) seem to do nowhere near as much damage as most of the other skills. It actually seems like some of them do the same dmg or worse than on live.

[Joedangod]

Attempted to run a few parses with the latest updates. Really felt like I was being perpetually screwed over by RNG since I kept having Terrible Wound sit at < 10% crit rate. Still, DPS is drastically improved since last build and I found myself reaching 44k at a peak with most parses sitting at 41.5k:



Fortunately another player was online to show me just how pitiful I am with red guard due to their 48k parse as stolen below:

How they managed that one I don't know.


Still, there are a few remaining problems. Brutal Assault/To the King/Hammer Down/Overwhelm/Guardians Ward/Sweeping Cut have really long animations, depressingly long. With the relatively short timer on the bleeds you kinda feel like you're in a rush to get the next one up and hitting any of those skills really slows down your gameplay. Anything that could be done to speed those up would be much appreciated.

Another issue would be sweeping cut and force opening. Even with all the damage buffs handed out these two skills hit for virtually nothing in comparison to everything else. It's annoying that they end up being pretty important skills that only get pressed for their secondary effects.

[Arveduie]

Honourable Combat is still only healing a total of 3 percent of max morale and power even when it consumes Slashing Wound from 5 targets.

[ChromiteSwiftpaw]

Honourable Combat is still only healing a total of 3 percent of max morale and power even when it consumes Slashing Wound from 5 targets.

I could never get more than 2 heals from it even though Slashing Wound was on multiple targets. I could see more than 2 honourable combats consuming slashing wound, though.

So is it a total of 3% morale healed combined and anything after that is lost?

Or is it supposed to be 3% of morale healed for each one consumed? (Because that ain't happening that I can see..)

[Grimlir83]

(sorry for my bad english)
I have tried the build 4 of the red guardian (two hand sword, but not glass cannon... no tries with shield). On dummies, on NPC in seregost 105 t2 and Mordor's instances craft. DPS against single target on Bullroarer is twice the DPS on single target on live, and the red guardian can't pull (without dying) an equal number on NPC than in live. This goal has been reached in my opinion.
The new system of bleeds and the use of overwhelm related to bleeds is more interesting, but bleeds should last more even if they are slight less powerful : agree with Joedangod, we rush in order to use these 3 skills as many times as possible. Agree with the problem of the sweeping cut's damages as well.
Consequently all that isn't perfect, but it's a lot better than the current state of the red guardian : well done Vastin !
And the problem of the belt's legacy still exists