Beorning Update Incoming

[Hildilas]

Ah, very well. At least I didn't break it with the latest update.

In that case I'll leave well enough alone for the time being.

-Vastin

Good to know.

Any news on incoming beo nerfs or adjusting minstrel group heals? I feel sry for minstrels to be honest.
Their group heal sucks compared to the Beo's and there is no plausible reason why.
Get your minstrel dev mate and get healers on par pls. It is not good for the community.

Will there be a fix on the armour issue soon?

[maradakia]

Is the Wanderlust run buff even working? I don't see any actual speed difference between bear form and Wanderlust. Has anyone tested this?

Can the coding and mechanics for when riding a mount not be applied here so that Wanderlust can be a true travel skill, and not just a non-combat run buff?

Couldn't it have the same 78% speed, and have the same "dismount" effect when hit x amount while in this form, dropping you out of Wanderlust?

How is a 40% (not yet working?) run buff that cancels out at soon as you enter combat, and which disables most of your skills in the meantime anyhow, the bear travel we were looking for?

It still forces Beornings to have to take man's form and ride on horses when travelling : (

Isn't it worthwhile both thematically and financially to make this a proper travel skill, so Beornings can remain in bear form when travelling at mount speed, and also opening up the possibility to add and sell Beorning travel (mount) variants on the store, buying different ones to have various different and cool appearances to choose from for your bear when travelling?

Instead of the 40% non-combat run buff skill, can't we make the speed 78% like a true travel ability, and use the same coding from all other mounts for getting "dismounted" (removed from this form) when attacked?

I really don't want to see this hope die here.

From the initial Players Council development of Beornings until now there has been a great deal of interest in this, and it has only grown over the years as more and more people feel the frustration of being a Beorning, who want to run free as bears, but who are instead forced to take man's form and ride on horses if they want to keep up. The inability to properly run around and travel in bear's form was a real bummer when it was first made that way. I was so excited when it looked like this was finally going to be fixed, as was written:

In the meantime I'm also working on:

- Travel Form (because, duh)
--- Seriously, this is the main thing Beorn uses his bear form for in the books.

-Vastin

Is this getting killed for the foreseeable future? I really hope not.

[Vastin]

Is the Wanderlust run buff even working? I don't see any actual speed difference between bear form and Wanderlust. Has anyone tested this?

The Beorning movement buff should work fine on its own - BUT - it can be overwritten by other movement buffs, which don't stack as a rule.

There's already a fix in the pipe to make the Wanderlust buff a much higher priority, so that it will beat most other movement buffs.

-Vastin

[maradakia]

The Beorning movement buff should work fine on its own - BUT - it can be overwritten by other movement buffs, which don't stack as a rule.

There's already a fix in the pipe to make the Wanderlust buff a much higher priority, so that it will beat most other movement buffs.

-Vastin

Does that mean an actual travel skill as a replacement for riding on a horse could possibly still happen, or is that totally dead as an option?

I don't know about others but I really don't have any interest in just a run buff for our Beornings, even a quick one.

The point was to not have to travel on horseback but instead to be able to travel as a bear, given that Beorn only ever travels in bear form, and specifically he accompanies others who are galloping for days on horseback, keeping pace with them in bear's form, and he most certainly would never ride on a horse.

And since Wanderlust loses the speed buff when entering combat, and our skills are disabled when using Wanderlust anyhow, could Wanderlust not simply be 78% speed so we can keep pace with people on their horses? It goes about it in a different way but effectively has the same limitations as mount skills do anyhow - you can't use any other skills while using this, and combat knocks you off - or in this case cancels your speed buff entirely. Maybe I'm missing something but this seems like a reasonable option and solution. While a Wanderlust at 78% speed would allow Beornings to not need to ride a horse, but to roam as bears, it wouldn't give any advantage over riding a horse - actually the opposite. Whereas you can take a few hits on your horse before being dismounted, in Wanderlust you lose all of your speed as soon as you enter combat. For those who want to opt to ride a horse, they can, but for the rest of us, with that one drawback of any combat ending the skill, this should be a viable option.

[snacktime]

So have been playing beorning on Legendary servers. I run T1/T2 instances and haven't done any raiding yet. Definitely a casual player.

While I realize that content is ridiculously easy now days, on beorning blue line it's over the top. In angmar at levels 47-49 I was doing all the small fellowship/fellowship quests solo without much effort. Bogbereth I was tanking fine, ran away as it was just taking too long. I'm sure I could do the same content on a hunter/mini/LM. it's the difficulty that is so low compared to other classes.

Blue line for landscape feels OP not just due to how much wrath we have but the increase in dps also. I almost never dropped out of bear form, so I wasn't even using ferocious roar or hearten most of the time. The only time I used FR is when I was fighting multiple elites and wanted FR->Relentless maul for the crits. If I had to drop out of bear more often, it would be more challenging, but definitely still easy in comparison to most other classes.

Instances were a different story. I still felt pretty tough but focus changes to holding agro and positioning, and I found that much more challenging then I remember it being on guardian.

Anyways, the point of this was to give some feedback from casual players on Legendary servers, which seems to be the bulk of the population on that server.

[mrgray28th]

Hey vastin, I know you are probably slammed with stuff like this but it has been a thing for a while. The red line trait "Brutal Energy" (requiring 20 trait points in red line) is not working properly. The trait states that Relentless Maul deals it's damage in half the time it previously did, however the damage remains roughly the same. This effectively halves the potential damage from relentless maul using the red line trait.

[snacktime]

I think I found where some of the extra wrath is coming from, unless this is some feature of red line I'm not aware of.

Auto attack crits are generating 3 wrath in red line. Doesn't do this in blue, and I didn't test yellow. Happens in both man and bear form.

[JiiPee]

So have been playing beorning on Legendary servers. I run T1/T2 instances and haven't done any raiding yet. Definitely a casual player.

While I realize that content is ridiculously easy now days, on beorning blue line it's over the top. In angmar at levels 47-49 I was doing all the small fellowship/fellowship quests solo without much effort. Bogbereth I was tanking fine, ran away as it was just taking too long. I'm sure I could do the same content on a hunter/mini/LM. it's the difficulty that is so low compared to other classes.

Blue line for landscape feels OP not just due to how much wrath we have but the increase in dps also. I almost never dropped out of bear form, so I wasn't even using ferocious roar or hearten most of the time. The only time I used FR is when I was fighting multiple elites and wanted FR->Relentless maul for the crits. If I had to drop out of bear more often, it would be more challenging, but definitely still easy in comparison to most other classes.

Instances were a different story. I still felt pretty tough but focus changes to holding agro and positioning, and I found that much more challenging then I remember it being on guardian.

Anyways, the point of this was to give some feedback from casual players on Legendary servers, which seems to be the bulk of the population on that server.

You are speaking of blue line and how you pop FR to get crit for maul. In blue line when you pop FR you get extra max morale for 10sec, in red line when you pop FR it makes your next skill to crit and in yellow line when you pop FR, it makes your next heal to cost no wrath. And all of this if you have traited them for blue or yellow. Crit is tied to red line, so it cannot be even traited to other lines.

[snacktime]

You are speaking of blue line and how you pop FR to get crit for maul. In blue line when you pop FR you get extra max morale for 10sec, in red line when you pop FR it makes your next skill to crit and in yellow line when you pop FR, it makes your next heal to cost no wrath. And all of this if you have traited them for blue or yellow. Crit is tied to red line, so it cannot be even traited to other lines.

Ya you are right I had that mixed up. I was bouncing between red/blue while doing the content.

[JiiPee]

Hey vastin, I know you are probably slammed with stuff like this but it has been a thing for a while. The red line trait "Brutal Energy" (requiring 20 trait points in red line) is not working properly. The trait states that Relentless Maul deals it's damage in half the time it previously did, however the damage remains roughly the same. This effectively halves the potential damage from relentless maul using the red line trait. http://prntscr.com/lwvf2c

Also it looks like that in red line maul only does 3 attacks even that channel duration is 4.3.sec
In blue line it does 3-4 attacks with same 4.3sec channel duration.
And in yellow line it does 7-8 attacks with 8,5sec channel duration.

So maul need still some love, not only that red line tree trait is too weak for what it claims it does, you also lose 1 pulse in red line. It seems to do just 3 pulses in red line all a time, yellow gets sometimes all 8 but sometimes just 7.

I don't know why we are not getting reliable 4 hits in blue what we should get or 8 in yellow what we should get. In red it seems like you never get 4 pulses, it's always 3. After last pulse animation keeps going but you do not get hit registered.
Maybe that channel duration needs little buff or 1st pulse needs to happen exactly that moment when you use skill.

Right now I see delay there, I don't know how much exact delay is because sometimes you get benefit and 1st pulse at same second, but most of the time you get this:

[12/19 02:53:50 PM] Heuheuheu applied a benefit with Relentless Maul on Heuheuheu.
[12/19 02:53:51 PM] Heuheuheu scored a critical hit with Relentless Maul on the Training-dummy for 11,833 Beleriand damage to Morale.

Channeling starts when you get benefit and if there is 0,5sec or sometimes even more delay before 1st pulse, there ain't no time for all pulses. Thats my theory.

And lets not to forget that wrath bug is still there. You need to have 40+ wrath to use maul, if you use it under 40 wrath it will cancel before full channel.

[Seschat]

The Beorning movement buff should work fine on its own - BUT - it can be overwritten by other movement buffs, which don't stack as a rule.

There's already a fix in the pipe to make the Wanderlust buff a much higher priority, so that it will beat most other movement buffs.

-Vastin

My Hunter friend is greatly amused by his ability to turn our Beorning friend's bear form on and off by toggling his movement buff button.

[Hildilas]

....

Talking about wrath you are right. It was actually fun to change forms really fast to get the best rotation. I just don't want them to nerf the healing magnitudes too much. :P

[xDRunnerXd]

Talking about wrath you are right. It was actually fun to change forms really fast to get the best rotation. I just don't want them to nerf the healing magnitudes too much. :P

It should be.
AOE heals are a lot stronger then anywhere need currently.

[Menegris]

Solo target dps still pretty good btw

[Antophant]

Solo target dps still pretty good btw

For landscape/solo that's good enough DPS but you will quickly find out in instances/raids that due to Expose you won't benefit from Mit debuffs resulting in a Bear DPSer doing around half the DPS of Hunters/RKs/Wardens and even Champs.


Could easily buff Red line Beorning DPS by another 50% and nerf Expose to around 10% and end up around the same landscape DPS but more competitive group DPS.

[Menegris]

For landscape/solo that's good enough DPS but you will quickly find out in instances/raids that due to Expose you won't benefit from Mit debuffs resulting in a Bear DPSer doing around half the DPS of Hunters/RKs/Wardens and even Champs.


Could easily buff Red line Beorning DPS by another 50% and nerf Expose to around 10% and end up around the same landscape DPS but more competitive group DPS.

I though that dummy has no mits so Expose didn't burst our dmg here, maybe i am wrong:/

[JiiPee]

Solo target dps still pretty good btw

Quite awesome example, 3 top hitting "skills" are bleeds and 4th is auto-attack, so over half of the damage done is quite much free damage. Yes sure this is better example than one before what shower bash doing like 80% of damage. At least you seems to have some rotation and your not spending much time in bear form? By looking skills used it looks like you you just hop bear to refresh bash and armour crush and spend most of the time in man form refreshing bleeds, because i don't see trash tier 3 there.

[Pavlin]

For landscape/solo that's good enough DPS but you will quickly find out in instances/raids that due to Expose you won't benefit from Mit debuffs resulting in a Bear DPSer doing around half the DPS of Hunters/RKs/Wardens and even Champs.


Could easily buff Red line Beorning DPS by another 50% and nerf Expose to around 10% and end up around the same landscape DPS but more competitive group DPS.

Do you keep expose buff and bee debufs up ?
And why you use slam?
And cut at half aout attck damage/ on real fight atleast.

[Antophant]

I though that dummy has no mits so Expose didn't burst our dmg here, maybe i am wrong:/

The dummies in the crafting area on Beta have Mits, some BPE and don't reset combat every 20 secs for DPS parsing.

[Menegris]

Also i didn't notice that Expose Weakness Buff refreshes not only after switching into bear form but after switching back to man form too. So its easy to keep it up all the time with just single use of Expose.

[Starina]

I do not agree with those who are crying for a beorn heal nerf. I healed the FI on T2 last night in the company of a top champ and a very good guard, and it was still hard work. I am fine to go into heal on my bear, but I don't want it to be a labour of insane passion for healing when I play my bear. Minis were op healers for a long time and I always was told it wasn't that hard to heal on mini, yet beorn shall be nerfed again? Yes, easy content is easy for a bear to heal - so is it easy for minis and rks, and harder content requires to be more on your toes with all 3, but make it a struggle and beorns will again lose their spot in raids, because we can still not really compete in dps. I have not tried tanking as of yet, but I doubt they will be anywhere near as good as guards when it comes to tanking, so healing it is for us right now in most cases.

There are some players out there who love to heal and want to do nothing but, yet I doubt most bears leveled to be hard working healers, I know I didn't, and I find healing harder content on bear just enough challenge to step forth as a healer. Make it a struggle and I will just not bother because I do not see why beornings should be in pain when minis for the longest time weren't with their healing. I heard no cries when minis were healing fine and easy, but now that the bear is finally given some love, it seems a problem.

I personally would have much preferred a dps spot in groups, healing is not what I love with every fiber of my being these days, but I can deal with it as is, as healing on bear is enjoyable enough - and as I said, it was by no means easy, and aside from the last years gaming, before then I always played healing classes in games, so I do know when healing is easy, compared to when it is fun, and when it becomes too much to bother with. Right now the bear is in the fun category for me personally with heals. You must look at hard content, not the stuff even my LM can manage to heal.

[JiiPee]

I do not agree with those who are crying for a beorn heal nerf. I healed the FI on T2 last night in the company of a top champ and a very good guard, and it was still hard work. I am fine to go into heal on my bear, but I don't want it to be a labour of insane passion for healing when I play my bear. Minis were op healers for a long time and I always was told it wasn't that hard to heal on mini, yet beorn shall be nerfed again? Yes, easy content is easy for a bear to heal - so is it easy for minis and rks, and harder content requires to be more on your toes with all 3, but make it a struggle and beorns will again lose their spot in raids, because we can still not really compete in dps. I have not tried tanking as of yet, but I doubt they will be anywhere near as good as guards when it comes to tanking, so healing it is for us right now in most cases.

There are some players out there who love to heal and want to do nothing but, yet I doubt most bears leveled to be hard working healers, I know I didn't, and I find healing harder content on bear just enough challenge to step forth as a healer. Make it a struggle and I will just not bother because I do not see why beornings should be in pain when minis for the longest time weren't with their healing. I heard no cries when minis were healing fine and easy, but now that the bear is finally given some love, it seems a problem.

I personally would have much preferred a dps spot in groups, healing is not what I love with every fiber of my being these days, but I can deal with it as is, as healing on bear is enjoyable enough - and as I said, it was by no means easy, and aside from the last years gaming, before then I always played healing classes in games, so I do know when healing is easy, compared to when it is fun, and when it becomes too much to bother with. Right now the bear is in the fun category for me personally with heals. You must look at hard content, not the stuff even my LM can manage to heal.

Look, if you don't wanna heal with beorning, you don't have any interest to even gear it correctly for healing and thats why you have trouble healing even easy content like FI's.

I heal Thigil Gundu T3 with my beorning and I can say that it's easy. You have HoT on tank what pulse every 3sec and it does 20-60k heals every pulse depending if it crit or not. That HoT alone is more than enough healing for many instances. Then you have splash heal what refresh your HoT what can do even bigger heal, roar can crit easily over 70k heal. And then you have bellow what also can crit over 60k and it can do that to every party member.
Man form things aren't that good but mending can crit also 60k and it has shortest CD of all healing skills. Hearten isn't strong but it still can do way over 10k crit pulses prolly even 15k if maxed outgoing healing what I still don't have and it pulse every second.
Soon maul is fixed so it also heals beorning what makes it very good skill to use when everyone has taken lot of damage. Maul crit pulses are way over 30k and it does 7-8 pulses.

So I really don't understand why someone have troubles to heal with beorning? Do you know that you actually need to max your tactical healing rating from your carving and add healing rune to your relics? They do a big difference now as you can see this picture. 1st row is with healing rune and maxed tactical heal rating and maxed healing legacies, 2nd is just with maxed healing legacies.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/0gk9ctsig9skt2y/scaling.png

There was time when tactical heal rating didn't matter for beorning, maybe you are not aware that it was fixed recently.

Mini or RK just can't come even close to HPS what beorning can currently push. Before beorning changes, we was already top on that chain and now we are even more ahead. With this change they increased beorning heals and increased cooldowns little, but not enough because our heals went up, not down. And in my opinion that CD increase was bad move anyway, it makes beorning healing even more burst what is already was. I would like to see heal values nerfed and shorter CD's that way we would get more steady healing and we could actually spot heal better party members who needs healing. Currently you need to rely quite much to Abyss 4-set bonus to take care of party healing what it does very well.
Beorning who doesn't have that Abyss set, will face troubles trying to heal full group without cappy.
I would say that Abyss set actually made beorning a good healing class at 115 followed with mini nerf what was very much required and requested long time. This direction where beorning is going, is making beorning very OP healer just like mini was.

[Gertes]

Look, if you don't wanna heal with beorning, you don't have any interest to even gear it correctly for healing and thats why you have trouble healing even easy content like FI's.

I heal Thigil Gundu T3 with my beorning and I can say that it's easy. You have HoT on tank what pulse every 3sec and it does 20-60k heals every pulse depending if it crit or not. That HoT alone is more than enough healing for many instances. Then you have splash heal what refresh your HoT what can do even bigger heal, roar can crit easily over 70k heal. And then you have bellow what also can crit over 60k and it can do that to every party member.
Man form things aren't that good but mending can crit also 60k and it has shortest CD of all healing skills. Hearten isn't strong but it still can do way over 10k crit pulses prolly even 15k if maxed outgoing healing what I still don't have and it pulse every second.
Soon maul is fixed so it also heals beorning what makes it very good skill to use when everyone has taken lot of damage. Maul crit pulses are way over 30k and it does 7-8 pulses.

So I really don't understand why someone have troubles to heal with beorning? Do you know that you actually need to max your tactical healing rating from your carving and add healing rune to your relics? They do a big difference now as you can see this picture. 1st row is with healing rune and maxed tactical heal rating and maxed healing legacies, 2nd is just with maxed healing legacies.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/0gk9ctsig9skt2y/scaling.png

There was time when tactical heal rating didn't matter for beorning, maybe you are not aware that it was fixed recently.

Mini or RK just can't come even close to HPS what beorning can currently push. Before beorning changes, we was already top on that chain and now we are even more ahead. With this change they increased beorning heals and increased cooldowns little, but not enough because our heals went up, not down. And in my opinion that CD increase was bad move anyway, it makes beorning healing even more burst what is already was. I would like to see heal values nerfed and shorter CD's that way we would get more steady healing and we could actually spot heal better party members who needs healing. Currently you need to rely quite much to Abyss 4-set bonus to take care of party healing what it does very well.
Beorning who doesn't have that Abyss set, will face troubles trying to heal full group without cappy.
I would say that Abyss set actually made beorning a good healing class at 115 followed with mini nerf what was very much required and requested long time. This direction where beorning is going, is making beorning very OP healer just like mini was.

Not only the heal is extremly strong, also the support that a bear can offer on top of that comes close to a yellow burglar. I really like the bear pre changes more, the heal was not super op, but still OK. And what he lacked in healing was mitigated by his strong damage/debuff support. Also his sacrefice is so strong, its basicly a panic cd for the tank, but in the hands of an healer.

[ColMcStacky]

Look, if you don't wanna heal with beorning, you don't have any interest to even gear it correctly for healing and thats why you have trouble healing even easy content like FI's.

I heal Thigil Gundu T3 with my beorning and I can say that it's easy. You have HoT on tank what pulse every 3sec and it does 20-60k heals every pulse depending if it crit or not. That HoT alone is more than enough healing for many instances. Then you have splash heal what refresh your HoT what can do even bigger heal, roar can crit easily over 70k heal. And then you have bellow what also can crit over 60k and it can do that to every party member.
Man form things aren't that good but mending can crit also 60k and it has shortest CD of all healing skills. Hearten isn't strong but it still can do way over 10k crit pulses prolly even 15k if maxed outgoing healing what I still don't have and it pulse every second.
Soon maul is fixed so it also heals beorning what makes it very good skill to use when everyone has taken lot of damage. Maul crit pulses are way over 30k and it does 7-8 pulses.

So I really don't understand why someone have troubles to heal with beorning? Do you know that you actually need to max your tactical healing rating from your carving and add healing rune to your relics? They do a big difference now as you can see this picture. 1st row is with healing rune and maxed tactical heal rating and maxed healing legacies, 2nd is just with maxed healing legacies.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/0gk9ctsig9skt2y/scaling.png

There was time when tactical heal rating didn't matter for beorning, maybe you are not aware that it was fixed recently.

Mini or RK just can't come even close to HPS what beorning can currently push. Before beorning changes, we was already top on that chain and now we are even more ahead. With this change they increased beorning heals and increased cooldowns little, but not enough because our heals went up, not down. And in my opinion that CD increase was bad move anyway, it makes beorning healing even more burst what is already was. I would like to see heal values nerfed and shorter CD's that way we would get more steady healing and we could actually spot heal better party members who needs healing. Currently you need to rely quite much to Abyss 4-set bonus to take care of party healing what it does very well.
Beorning who doesn't have that Abyss set, will face troubles trying to heal full group without cappy.
I would say that Abyss set actually made beorning a good healing class at 115 followed with mini nerf what was very much required and requested long time. This direction where beorning is going, is making beorning very OP healer just like mini was.

The problem is that without the Abyss set, unfortunately Beorning AoE heals are terrible.

If you ask me, not only does the Abyss set need to be fixed (which Vastin said it will be), but the Encouraging Roar HoT needs to be reduced. There is no reason to have a permanent HoT that is that strong. I would much rather see an Encouraging Roar HoT that on t3 is 1/3 its current strength, but have our shorter cooldowns on Encouraging Roar and Rejuvenating Bellow that we used to have. And the current situation with the Abyss set basically creates a situation of haves and have-nots. Sure "anybody" can run an underleveled t2c raid 4-20 times to get the set bonus, but on the less populated servers, this might as well be as rare as the old, golden Warden earring from 85 cap.

Having this trait replace the Vicious Claws buff wouldn't be too bad I don't think, as I don't know anyone who actually uses this trait. It doesn't even matter that it's on the first tier of the traitline, as Encouraging Roar is yellow-line only, so the trait would be useless for hybrid builds. Just make it a 3 point investment for 10%, 30%, 50% of the HoT's total strength on the entire group (as the potency hopefully would be reduced substantially at t2/t3, thus the AoE component would need a bit of a buff).


TL;DR I would much rather see the AoE HoT at a lesser potency rolled into the traitline somewhere, and simply have the set bonus be +x pulses or increased AoE HoT magnitude or something along those lines.

[mrfigglesworth]

The problem is that without the Abyss set, unfortunately Beorning AoE heals are terrible.

If you ask me, not only does the Abyss set need to be fixed (which Vastin said it will be), but the Encouraging Roar HoT needs to be reduced. There is no reason to have a permanent HoT that is that strong. I would much rather see an Encouraging Roar HoT that on t3 is 1/3 its current strength, but have our shorter cooldowns on Encouraging Roar and Rejuvenating Bellow that we used to have. And the current situation with the Abyss set basically creates a situation of haves and have-nots. Sure "anybody" can run an underleveled t2c raid 4-20 times to get the set bonus, but on the less populated servers, this might as well be as rare as the old, golden Warden earring from 85 cap.

Having this trait replace the Vicious Claws buff wouldn't be too bad I don't think, as I don't know anyone who actually uses this trait. It doesn't even matter that it's on the first tier of the traitline, as Encouraging Roar is yellow-line only, so the trait would be useless for hybrid builds. Just make it a 3 point investment for 10%, 30%, 50% of the HoT's total strength on the entire group (as the potency hopefully would be reduced substantially at t2/t3, thus the AoE component would need a bit of a buff).


TL;DR I would much rather see the AoE HoT at a lesser potency rolled into the traitline somewhere, and simply have the set bonus be +x pulses or increased AoE HoT magnitude or something along those lines.

we still have relentless mail and bellows. without the group hot we would still be better than minis and rks in group heals.