Beorning Update Incoming

[zipfile]

Proc= Programmed random occurrence. An event “proccing” is one you knew would happen but not when.
AOE= Area of Effect
Agro= short form for aggression or threat
Force attack= forces an Npc to attack you for a specified duration

Please stop spreading misinformation. Agro, taunt, force attack, aoe, and proc are not the same thing. These are distinct defining characteristics for skills.
Increasing Agro “threat” directly contends with other effects such as dps or healing for which character is the most threatening to a hostile npc. The most threatening character is then targeted and attacked.
This is different from a forced attack where no additional Agro (unless otherwise stated) is generated. But the hostile npc is forced to attack the character that used the force attack skill for the duration of the skill. When the skill duration expires the npc will revert to attacking whichever character has the most Agro or “threat”.

I probably tank better than most ppl in lotro, thats doesnt mnatter.

How dare you educate someone probably better than yourself?

[dsltn07]

How dare you educate someone probably better than yourself?

I can only try, though he is probably geared better than me. I’ve just returned to Lotro again with great excitement over the beo patch. Gameplay is certainly much smoother now than before. Let’s keep this going. Great work has been done, but there is much much more to do.

@Vastin I hope you’re still reading and thank you for the hard work.

[JiiPee]

Proc= Programmed random occurrence. An event “proccing” is one you knew would happen but not when.
AOE= Area of Effect
Agro= short form for aggression or threat
Force attack= forces an Npc to attack you for a specified duration

Please stop spreading misinformation. Agro, taunt, force attack, aoe, and proc are not the same thing. These are distinct defining characteristics for skills.
Increasing Agro “threat” directly contends with other effects such as dps or healing for which character is the most threatening to a hostile npc. The most threatening character is then targeted and attacked.
This is different from a forced attack where no additional Agro (unless otherwise stated) is generated. But the hostile npc is forced to attack the character that used the force attack skill for the duration of the skill. When the skill duration expires the npc will revert to attacking whichever character has the most Agro or “threat”.

Mostly accurate, what you forgot to mention is that Forced Taunts on all classes when traited tank line does also aggro copy and basicly all damage and heal skills on everyone is also aggro builders and again when tanking line every skill gets quite big bonus for aggro building.

[JiiPee]

I’m going back and reading older posts. Please do not listen to people like this. Bear healing might be strong, but like you said it’s far too bursty. Nerfing healing significantly and increasing cooldowns will only add to your boredom and make the bear unplayable for healing. We need to be asking for more skills, tools, wrath sinks. The current issue with bear healing is the aoe encouraging roar, which is stronger than bellow for no reason. Remove the specific problem, don’t nerf bear healing altogether. Add a small HOT to bellow and increase wrath cost, leave encouraging roar alone, and remove the roar set bonus entirely to be replaced with a reasonably scaled set bonus boost to the encouraging roar single target HOT (for the tank in T3).

Beorning still needs general nerf to healing. It need to be less burst what requires that CD's must come down but if we just lower CD's healing becomes even more OP what it currently is.
Just yesterday we did TG t3 run. In one trash pull I wanted to to try out and did some pushing, over 3min parse was over 98k HPS and to tank (Guardian) over 31k HPS. And that was without maintaining outgoing heal buff, again in my opinion healer spot is NOT in melee range, so I don't even have that buff traited.
After that run, we did another TG T3 run, now with RK healing. Best what RK was able to push was 48k HPS. So there was 50k difference! So please don't tell me that I don't know what I am talking about. Also RK had an huge adventage, he was healing cappy tank and we all know that cappy does give lot of incoming healing buffs. I was healing with beorning no cappy run, so there wasn't any extra incoming healing buffs other than random water-lore.
Right now TG T3 can be mostly done with just single skill. I did heal many trash pulls with just ER. Your MAIN heal for tank and for group is Encouraging Roar Tier 3 HoT! As longt as you maintain that HoT, your safe.

What I wanna see is healing nerfed in general, ER HoT requires big nerf for tier scaling, no other tiering up heal scales over 300% like that HoT, RK writ only scales like 36%. CD's must come down to same what they was. Now if you wanna maintain tier 3 HoT on tank, you can only do ER to 1 other person before you must go back tank or HoT falls off.
1st ER refresh tank hot start ticking down from 12sec
2nd ER to other person, now tank hot is at 7,5sec left.
3rd ER ready, tank HoT has 3sec left (In reality it's most likely less because all delays) so you have now option to refresh tank HoT or heal someone from group, if you heal group member, then you will spend next 13,5sec at least to get tank HoT back to Tier 3.
With old CD's you was able to do 2 ER to others and back then that HoT wasn't your MAIN heal, it was quite small HoT and only helped little. So I don't know whos idea it was to make that HoT so OP what it currently is. Even when group HoT is getting fixed that HoT remains to be your MAIN heal because it's ticking 60k crits to marked person and 20k crits to fellow and in fact when it gets fixed it becomes even BETTER for group because then tier 3 doesn't fall off from group and you do not need to start from 0, so I don't believe that HoT group fix affect much of total HPS what we are currently pushing.

Maybe one option would be make it tick every 4sec for 16sec, it would nerf that heal quite alot and it would allow us to do 2 ER for group before requiring to go back tank to refresh it.

[dsltn07]

I was focusing on terms and skills, however it is worth noting that every class’s tank line (if available) increases their threat generation for all skills by a substantial amount. This is separate from forced attack and threat generation skills and applies to all skills. Threat generation skills have become less prominent when compared to force attack skills as level cap has gone up due to the greatly increased dps and heal scaling and the relative threat. I do not think we have ever been given exact numbers for tank threat generation, or I cannot remember.

[dsltn07]

Beorning still needs general nerf to healing. It need to be less burst what requires that CD's must come down but if we just lower CD's healing becomes even more OP what it currently is.
Just yesterday we did TG t3 run. In one trash pull I wanted to to try out and did some pushing, over 3min parse was over 98k HPS and to tank (Guardian) over 31k HPS. And that was without maintaining outgoing heal buff, again in my opinion healer spot is NOT in melee range, so I don't even have that buff traited.
After that run, we did another TG T3 run, now with RK healing. Best what RK was able to push was 48k HPS. So there was 50k difference! So please don't tell me that I don't know what I am talking about. Also RK had an huge adventage, he was healing cappy tank and we all know that cappy does give lot of incoming healing buffs. I was healing with beorning no cappy run, so there wasn't any extra incoming healing buffs other than random water-lore.
Right now TG T3 can be mostly done with just single skill. I did heal many trash pulls with just ER. Your MAIN heal for tank and for group is Encouraging Roar Tier 3 HoT! As longt as you maintain that HoT, your safe.

What I wanna see is healing nerfed in general, ER HoT requires big nerf for tier scaling, no other tiering up heal scales over 300% like that HoT, RK writ only scales like 36%. CD's must come down to same what they was. Now if you wanna maintain tier 3 HoT on tank, you can only do ER to 1 other person before you must go back tank or HoT falls off.
1st ER refresh tank hot start ticking down from 12sec
2nd ER to other person, now tank hot is at 7,5sec left.
3rd ER ready, tank HoT has 3sec left (In reality it's most likely less because all delays) so you have now option to refresh tank HoT or heal someone from group, if you heal group member, then you will spend next 13,5sec at least to get tank HoT back to Tier 3.
With old CD's you was able to do 2 ER to others and back then that HoT wasn't your MAIN heal, it was quite small HoT and only helped little. So I don't know whos idea it was to make that HoT so OP what it currently is. Even when group HoT is getting fixed that HoT remains to be your MAIN heal because it's ticking 60k crits to marked person and 20k crits to fellow and in fact when it gets fixed it becomes even BETTER for group because then tier 3 doesn't fall off from group and you do not need to start from 0, so I don't believe that HoT group fix affect much of total HPS what we are currently pushing.

Maybe one option would be make it tick every 4sec for 16sec, it would nerf that heal quite alot and it would allow us to do 2 ER for group before requiring to go back tank to refresh it.

I should have been more specific in the post you are replying to here, and I think you skipped the point I’ve repeated multiple times.

First of all, I was replying to colm about “beo healing needs significant nerfs all around” which I think is the wrong direction. I never said you don’t know what you’re talking about, I said (speaking to Vastin) Please don’t listen to people like this, who are asking for large direct nerfs to “bear heals”. Next thing we’ll see is hearten and recuperate get reduced by 90%.
Regarding your 98k parse, that’s not terribly crazy if you consider the abyss set that I keep saying needs to be removed. 1/3 of a 60k tick is 20k like you said, 20k per fellow for 4 fellows is 80k alone. That’s exclusively from the set bonus. Remove the set bonus. Then add a separate wrath consuming aoe HoT skill scaled appropriately.

I have yet to heal a T3 run so I was not familiar with the ER T3 HoT scaling that high for tier 3 on single target. If it is scaling that high it may need to be reduced a bit. Since it was not like that before the patch and Vastin left yellow mostly alone, it was probably an unintended result from the stat rebalance not adjusting ER, and the scaling is old. A lot of the bear skills have never scaled like you’d expect.
The best solution is still to do what I suggested before in adding new wrath consuming skills. We need an aoe HoT to help sustain group members beside the tank (long bellow CD, unreliable maul, swap+induction/hearten takes too long to catch a dropping fellow. Like you said, you often face a choice of letting a group member drop, or the tank HoT drop because ER is so essential. If you had another skill to mitigate aoe dps that would help. You picked on me asking for shorter cooldowns. I asked for shorter cooldowns WITH scaled down skills. ER for example, if it gets cut down by 75% I’d like its CD to be reduced back to 6 seconds.

Edit: Wanted to add that we are in agreement that ER needs a look and bear healing is far too bursty. What I do not want is for ER to be the focus of the continued balancing when we need the HoT to be reduced and the set bonus removed. Those together would probably put your 98k parse 20k below your RK. Then add new skills that fill the gap. They would be partially balanced by also costing wrath and animation/cast time. But they would be specialized. Instead of ER for example, which currently provides more sustain HoT than hearten, more aoe heals than bellow, more instant cast single target heals than nature’s mend, and aoe group sustain (with set) which we rely on maul/bellow for. Again, maul is unreliable and bellow has long CD so can’t be used for sustain.

[Happychappy]

Beorning still needs general nerf to healing. It need to be less burst what requires that CD's must come down but if we just lower CD's healing becomes even more OP what it currently is.
Just yesterday we did TG t3 run. In one trash pull I wanted to to try out and did some pushing, over 3min parse was over 98k HPS and to tank (Guardian) over 31k HPS. And that was without maintaining outgoing heal buff, again in my opinion healer spot is NOT in melee range, so I don't even have that buff traited.
After that run, we did another TG T3 run, now with RK healing. Best what RK was able to push was 48k HPS. So there was 50k difference! So please don't tell me that I don't know what I am talking about. Also RK had an huge adventage, he was healing cappy tank and we all know that cappy does give lot of incoming healing buffs. I was healing with beorning no cappy run, so there wasn't any extra incoming healing buffs other than random water-lore.
Right now TG T3 can be mostly done with just single skill. I did heal many trash pulls with just ER. Your MAIN heal for tank and for group is Encouraging Roar Tier 3 HoT! As longt as you maintain that HoT, your safe.

What I wanna see is healing nerfed in general, ER HoT requires big nerf for tier scaling, no other tiering up heal scales over 300% like that HoT, RK writ only scales like 36%. CD's must come down to same what they was. Now if you wanna maintain tier 3 HoT on tank, you can only do ER to 1 other person before you must go back tank or HoT falls off.
1st ER refresh tank hot start ticking down from 12sec
2nd ER to other person, now tank hot is at 7,5sec left.
3rd ER ready, tank HoT has 3sec left (In reality it's most likely less because all delays) so you have now option to refresh tank HoT or heal someone from group, if you heal group member, then you will spend next 13,5sec at least to get tank HoT back to Tier 3.
With old CD's you was able to do 2 ER to others and back then that HoT wasn't your MAIN heal, it was quite small HoT and only helped little. So I don't know whos idea it was to make that HoT so OP what it currently is. Even when group HoT is getting fixed that HoT remains to be your MAIN heal because it's ticking 60k crits to marked person and 20k crits to fellow and in fact when it gets fixed it becomes even BETTER for group because then tier 3 doesn't fall off from group and you do not need to start from 0, so I don't believe that HoT group fix affect much of total HPS what we are currently pushing.

Maybe one option would be make it tick every 4sec for 16sec, it would nerf that heal quite alot and it would allow us to do 2 ER for group before requiring to go back tank to refresh it.

So a healing nerf based on a test with different players, different gear, different tanks with different gear etc? And thats if the truth be told. Any screenshots of gear on players and healing output etc would probably help.

RK does offer more than just outright healing. A mitigation buff plus bubbles would all reduce the healing needed surely. Plus double in combat rez skill. Plus no wrath management at all to worry about, a RK will always have power to throw heals out even when things get rough. A Beorning can lose wrath easily on an unorganised/badly geared etc group.

Minstrels probably just need some of their skills to work properly and may even need a small tweak here and there.

A few tweaks may be needed but its very early days still. Abyss set probably needs changing or capping. Perhaps give it a little more time before knee jerk reaction nerf calling, which dates back way before your claimed results from your TG T3 run. Let the Bears have their day a little longer, they were certainly due it lol. After all it is Christmas

[JiiPee]

I should have been more specific in the post you are replying to here, and I think you skipped the point I’ve repeated multiple times.

First of all, I was replying to colm about “beo healing needs significant nerfs all around” which I think is the wrong direction. I never said you don’t know what you’re talking about, I said (speaking to Vastin) Please don’t listen to people like this, who are asking for large direct nerfs to “bear heals”. Next thing we’ll see is hearten and recuperate get reduced by 90%.
Regarding your 98k parse, that’s not terribly crazy if you consider the abyss set that I keep saying needs to be removed. 1/3 of a 60k tick is 20k like you said, 20k per fellow for 4 fellows is 80k alone. That’s exclusively from the set bonus. Remove the set bonus. Then add a separate wrath consuming aoe HoT skill scaled appropriately.

I have yet to heal a T3 run so I was not familiar with the ER T3 HoT scaling that high for tier 3 on single target. If it is scaling that high it may need to be reduced a bit. Since it was not like that before the patch and Vastin left yellow mostly alone, it was probably an unintended result from the stat rebalance not adjusting ER, and the scaling is old. A lot of the bear skills have never scaled like you’d expect.
The best solution is still to do what I suggested before in adding new wrath consuming skills. We need an aoe HoT to help sustain group members beside the tank (long bellow CD, unreliable maul, swap+induction/hearten takes too long to catch a dropping fellow. Like you said, you often face a choice of letting a group member drop, or the tank HoT drop because ER is so essential. If you had another skill to mitigate aoe dps that would help. You picked on me asking for shorter cooldowns. I asked for shorter cooldowns WITH scaled down skills. ER for example, if it gets cut down by 75% I’d like its CD to be reduced back to 6 seconds.

Edit: Wanted to add that we are in agreement that ER needs a look and bear healing is far too bursty. What I do not want is for ER to be the focus of the continued balancing when we need the HoT to be reduced and the set bonus removed. Those together would probably put your 98k parse 20k below your RK. Then add new skills that fill the gap. They would be partially balanced by also costing wrath and animation/cast time. But they would be specialized. Instead of ER for example, which currently provides more sustain HoT than hearten, more aoe heals than bellow, more instant cast single target heals than nature’s mend, and aoe group sustain (with set) which we rely on maul/bellow for. Again, maul is unreliable and bellow has long CD so can’t be used for sustain.

Look, even if I removed abyss set bonus, I would do that over 30k HPS to tank, that abyss set just let us now run without cappy because that set bonus can take care of group healing, we do not need cappy blue mark to give heal for DPS.

And even that group HoT is currently broken and 4th time using ER makes HoT tick same for group that it ticks for tank, doesn't really make it that OP like people think. It also cause issue because that HoT is NOT refreshing after 4th ER use. It does tick 5 times very high values, yes can crit 60k, but after that 5th tick your group runs out of HoT and now you need to start building it up again. And because T1 vs T3 scaling is over 300% it can actually HURT your healing for group depending what phase you are in rotation when HoT wears off.

Maybe this video help you to better understand the issue.



As you can see, there is crits for each tier with and without mark and it also show how group HoT just wears out after 4th ER use. If you just did ER and you drop back to man form to build wrath, it's quite long time until group have again tier 1 hot rolling. Sure you can drop man form for just 1 skill, but if you do about full set, biting edge, hearten, mend and roar, it takes time, it actually takes about 9sec because you can pop bellow then go do all thouse 4 skills and when you pop back to bear form, bellow is again ready to use.
I would rather take that solid 6-7k HoT and around 20k crits rolling all a time on group and thats what we get when fix goes live (thats how it works on BR or did work when I was last there).

Also when I said that HoT does 60k pulses, I don't think there was any in that video, but I wasn't using Osg +20% crit magnitude set on that video, just did testing with it and
Encouraging Roar - Tier 3 applied a critical heal to Heuheuheu restoring 64,531 points to Morale.
Also I am missing still lot of crit rating, capping crit rating would increase my maxnitude already 10%, also I am currently 6% away from OGH cap what would also increase my healing. So 60k pulses are very much possible even without Osg set and any incoming healing buff on target or beorning own outgoing heal buff.

[dsltn07]

The best I could understand from your recent post is that first of all, you’re exaggerating.
Second, you’re advocating a change that is already on bull roarer, and complaining that live does not currently match bull roarer? That bit confused me a lot.
Lastly, you quoted my post, but nothing in your post used or replied to any of the information in my own post except repeating what I already said, and saying that you need the abyss set bonus.

I watched some of the numbers from your video:
HoT-
ER T1=~2k pulse
ER T2= ~4K pulse
ER T3 = ~6k pulse

ER T1 crit= ~4.5k
ER T2 crit= ~9k
ER T3 crit= ~18k

-Is this where you’re getting that 300% scaling number? I ask because you’re not making sense to me. Yes, 18k Morale per pulse is a little high, but if you consider that a tank there will typically have 200k morale it really isn’t so bad. If we have things your way it’ll take well over a minute to heal a tank back to full health once. 2k per 3 seconds is a drop in a bucket. Abyss set needs to go away so you’ll stop calling for balances around one set bonus that is only going to be around for a handful of months. If you really think encouraging roar aoe is so essential, then argue for it to be a yellow trait. We all know there’s enough useless ones to be replaced as it is anyways.

[ColMcStacky]

I should have been more specific in the post you are replying to here, and I think you skipped the point I’ve repeated multiple times.

First of all, I was replying to colm about “beo healing needs significant nerfs all around” which I think is the wrong direction.

I just want to say that I don't believe I said in previous posts that heals need "significant nerfs all around". I don't agree with that either. I first and foremost just want to see the HoT from Encouraging Roar brought down to more realistic levels. After that there are a few other things that I think would be nice, like removing the set bonus entirely and incorperating it into the trait-line directly (this way there are no "haves" and "have-nots"), revert the cooldown increases on Encouraging Roar and Rejuvenating Bellow, and then seeing where we stand before anything else is done.

Remove the set bonus. Then add a separate wrath consuming aoe HoT skill scaled appropriately.

I like this idea, adding a new HoT skill and replacing the set entirely actually. And the following is really the crux of the argument against the set bonus, and how to solve the problem:

Edit: Wanted to add that we are in agreement that ER needs a look and bear healing is far too bursty. What I do not want is for ER to be the focus of the continued balancing when we need the HoT to be reduced and the set bonus removed. Those together would probably put your 98k parse 20k below your RK. Then add new skills that fill the gap. They would be partially balanced by also costing wrath and animation/cast time. But they would be specialized. Instead of ER for example, which currently provides more sustain HoT than hearten, more aoe heals than bellow, more instant cast single target heals than nature’s mend, and aoe group sustain (with set) which we rely on maul/bellow for. Again, maul is unreliable and bellow has long CD so can’t be used for sustain.

More tools being added to a toolbox doesn't mean that they will be used for every job. In my opinion, the AoE HoT that would hypothetically be added needs to have a longer cooldown than its duration, that way you don't just spam it like you currently do with Encouraging Roar to keep the HoT up. It needs to be a reactionary skill that we should be careful not to waste needlessly. In the same vein, it should probably be more potent than Hearten currently is, and should cost substantial wrath (30-40?) in my opinion.

[dsltn07]

On a separate note, I was thinking the vicious claws yellow trait could do with a change to better impact tanks or the fellowship. Currently it gives a +15% modifier to the marked targets damage. Since the marked target is typically the tank this trait is not often useful for the healer, the tank, or the dps members of the fellowship.

I would propose either changing the skill to buff the tank in some fashion (possibly too strong) or allowing the bonus to be applied to the fellowship. If applied to fellowship the skill would likely require a nerf first so that the max increase is somewhere in the 5-10% ballpark.

Another skill topic would be the piercing roar and slam debuffs. It would be best if these were normalized instead of scaling off npc mastery. Make them flat damage reductions to total damage and reduce the debuff to reasonable ranges. Something like 5% for slam and 5% for piercing roar untraited, 10% traited. Total is 15% under both debuffs fully traited.

Bracing roar health return would be better if it scaled off % health. 5-10% most likely. Maybe a hair higher.

Nature’s bond, perhaps I don’t know how to use it. But best I can tell it does not serve much perpose and could use attention.
Enraging sacrifice is usually not traited because if you’re in red line you don’t want to take damage yourself, though the wrath would be useful if we had more skills to spend wrath on. It’s not good to trait when tanking because if you try to use sacrifice to shield a healer the healer takes more damage with enraging traited, when you’d want the full 90% redirect not 75%.

Mark of beorn does not do much besides aoe fear, aoe bee dps, and piercing cry buff (already mentioned)

Grisly cry has never been useful due to the 100% break chance after 1 second, and the nature of fear not being useful in groups.
Imposing presence trait, since grisly is not beneficial.

I’m still not thrilled with execute and have untraited it. Red bear needs new skills to spend wrath on because thrash alone will sustain armor crush/bash/vicious. Call to wild does not help since thrash sustains bash. So most of the time you’re waiting on 12-20s cooldowns by spamming man slashes or bear thrashes. Thrash back to back animations still feel delayed. May be needed to balance wrath generation though.

This is just a list of skills and traits I think need some more attention to round out the skills, and I still think a new aoe HoT skill with removal of abyss set would be beneficial.

[JiiPee]

The best I could understand from your recent post is that first of all, you’re exaggerating.
Second, you’re advocating a change that is already on bull roarer, and complaining that live does not currently match bull roarer? That bit confused me a lot.
Lastly, you quoted my post, but nothing in your post used or replied to any of the information in my own post except repeating what I already said, and saying that you need the abyss set bonus.

I watched some of the numbers from your video:
HoT-
ER T1=~2k pulse
ER T2= ~4K pulse
ER T3 = ~6k pulse

ER T1 crit= ~4.5k
ER T2 crit= ~9k
ER T3 crit= ~18k

-Is this where you’re getting that 300% scaling number? I ask because you’re not making sense to me. Yes, 18k Morale per pulse is a little high, but if you consider that a tank there will typically have 200k morale it really isn’t so bad. If we have things your way it’ll take well over a minute to heal a tank back to full health once. 2k per 3 seconds is a drop in a bucket. Abyss set needs to go away so you’ll stop calling for balances around one set bonus that is only going to be around for a handful of months. If you really think encouraging roar aoe is so essential, then argue for it to be a yellow trait. We all know there’s enough useless ones to be replaced as it is anyways.

Your math doesn't match up at all. 18k pulse/3 sec=6k HPS and 200k/6k=33,3sec. So even if NONE of your HoT's crit (what they do and then they do 60-70k pulses) your HoT alone can heal tank to max morale under half minute.

Yes you can clearly see from thouse numbers that that tier 1 to tier 3 scales over 300% what is just ridiculous. We can easily compare this bear hot to rk writ of health, with rousing words you can stack writh HoT to group members.
And here you can see it's scaling.



As you can see there is no 300% scaling on this hot from tier 1 to tier 3. It's way under 40%. Now lets say that writ tier 3 does 4k pulses without crit and lets take that 200k again as aim.
4k pulse/4sec=1k HPS. Okey so we already know that it takes 200sec to fill that tank morale with only that HoT. 200sec is 3min 20sec.

Lets get back to beorning hot and this time group hot. So it does 6k pulses without crit. thats 2k HPS, so even that group hot is twice as strong as RK writ of health tier 3 hot.

[dsltn07]

Those 18k pulses were crits from your own video. 70k is the initial critical heal, it’s not doing 70k every 3 seconds. Per your own video.

You’re trying to balance off the abyss set again regarding the “group HoT 2k/s” I’ve said repeatedly that it needs to be removed.

Furthermore, 4.5k to 9k to 18k is not a 300% increase. The skill is increasing by 2x the previous tier value from what I can tell. I agreed with you earlier it should probably be scaled down.

[JiiPee]

Those 18k pulses were crits from your own video. 70k is the initial critical heal, it’s not doing 70k every 3 seconds. Per your own video.

You’re trying to balance off the abyss set again regarding the “group HoT 2k/s” I’ve said repeatedly that it needs to be removed.

Furthermore, 4.5k to 9k to 18k is not a 300% increase. The skill is increasing by 2x the previous tier value from what I can tell. I agreed with you earlier it should probably be scaled down.

OMG... How is this so hard to understand.

Now lets see how group HoT scale and how much it crit. I have also made all INITIAL heals italic so it should be more easy to see. I also bold all HoT crits, again to better see them.

### Chat Log: Combat 12/29 03:00 AM ###
[12/29 03:00:35 AM] Heuheuheu applied a benefit with Ferocious Roar on Heuheuheu.
[12/29 03:00:37 AM] Heuheuheu applied a benefit with Bear-form on Heuheuheu.
[12/29 03:00:40 AM] Encouraging Roar applied a heal to Heuheuheu restoring 23,742 points to Morale.
[12/29 03:00:40 AM] Heuheuheu applied a benefit with Encouraging Roar on Heuheuheu.
[12/29 03:00:43 AM] Encouraging Roar - Tier 1 applied a critical heal to Heuheuheu restoring 4,957 points to Morale.
[12/29 03:00:46 AM] Encouraging Roar - Tier 1 applied a critical heal to Heuheuheu restoring 5,028 points to Morale.
[12/29 03:00:50 AM] Encouraging Roar - Tier 1 applied a heal to Heuheuheu restoring 1,914 points to Morale.
[12/29 03:00:53 AM] Encouraging Roar - Tier 1 applied a heal to Heuheuheu restoring 1,943 points to Morale.
[12/29 03:00:53 AM] Encouraging Roar applied a heal to Heuheuheu restoring 25,177 points to Morale.
[12/29 03:00:54 AM] Heuheuheu applied a benefit with Encouraging Roar on Heuheuheu.
[12/29 03:00:56 AM] Encouraging Roar - Tier 2 applied a heal to Heuheuheu restoring 3,973 points to Morale.
[12/29 03:01:00 AM] Encouraging Roar - Tier 2 applied a critical heal to Heuheuheu restoring 12,312 points to Morale.
[12/29 03:01:03 AM] Encouraging Roar - Tier 2 applied a heal to Heuheuheu restoring 3,711 points to Morale.
[12/29 03:01:06 AM] Encouraging Roar - Tier 2 applied a critical heal to Heuheuheu restoring 11,477 points to Morale.
[12/29 03:01:08 AM] Heuheuheu applied a critical benefit with Encouraging Roar on Heuheuheu.
[12/29 03:01:08 AM] Encouraging Roar applied a critical heal to Heuheuheu restoring 72,360 points to Morale.
[12/29 03:01:11 AM] Encouraging Roar - Tier 3 applied a heal to Heuheuheu restoring 5,600 points to Morale.
[12/29 03:01:14 AM] Encouraging Roar - Tier 3 applied a critical heal to Heuheuheu restoring 15,884 points to Morale.
[12/29 03:01:17 AM] Encouraging Roar - Tier 3 applied a critical heal to Heuheuheu restoring 18,863 points to Morale.
[12/29 03:01:20 AM] Encouraging Roar - Tier 3 applied a heal to Heuheuheu restoring 4,742 points to Morale.
[12/29 03:01:23 AM] Encouraging Roar - Tier 3 applied a heal to Heuheuheu restoring 6,142 points to Morale.


Now same stuff with mark, what you usual keep on tank.

[12/29 03:01:33 AM] Heuheuheu applied a benefit with Mark of Grimbeorn on Heuheuheu.
[12/29 03:01:38 AM] Encouraging Roar applied a critical heal to Heuheuheu restoring 69,973 points to Morale.
[12/29 03:01:38 AM] Bond of Trust applied a heal to Heuheuheu restoring 6,971 points to Morale.
[12/29 03:01:39 AM] Heuheuheu applied a critical benefit with Encouraging Roar on Heuheuheu.
[12/29 03:01:42 AM] Encouraging Roar - Tier 1 applied a heal to Heuheuheu restoring 5,908 points to Morale.
[12/29 03:01:45 AM] Encouraging Roar - Tier 1 applied a heal to Heuheuheu restoring 4,778 points to Morale.
[12/29 03:01:48 AM] Encouraging Roar - Tier 1 applied a heal to Heuheuheu restoring 5,647 points to Morale.
[12/29 03:01:51 AM] Encouraging Roar - Tier 1 applied a critical heal to Heuheuheu restoring 15,663 points to Morale.
[12/29 03:01:52 AM] Encouraging Roar applied a heal to Heuheuheu restoring 23,471 points to Morale.
[12/29 03:01:52 AM] Heuheuheu applied a benefit with Encouraging Roar on Heuheuheu.
[12/29 03:01:55 AM] Encouraging Roar - Tier 2 applied a heal to Heuheuheu restoring 13,426 points to Morale.
[12/29 03:01:58 AM] Encouraging Roar - Tier 2 applied a critical heal to Heuheuheu restoring 30,545 points to Morale.
[12/29 03:02:01 AM] Encouraging Roar - Tier 2 applied a heal to Heuheuheu restoring 13,153 points to Morale.
[12/29 03:02:04 AM] Encouraging Roar - Tier 2 applied a heal to Heuheuheu restoring 11,157 points to Morale.
[12/29 03:02:06 AM] Encouraging Roar applied a heal to Heuheuheu restoring 25,407 points to Morale.
[12/29 03:02:06 AM] Bond of Trust applied a heal to Heuheuheu restoring 6,971 points to Morale.
[12/29 03:02:06 AM] Heuheuheu applied a benefit with Encouraging Roar on Heuheuheu.
[12/29 03:02:09 AM] Encouraging Roar - Tier 3 applied a heal to Heuheuheu restoring 20,413 points to Morale.
[12/29 03:02:12 AM] Encouraging Roar - Tier 3 applied a critical heal to Heuheuheu restoring 62,094 points to Morale.
[12/29 03:02:15 AM] Encouraging Roar - Tier 3 applied a critical heal to Heuheuheu restoring 50,800 points to Morale.
[12/29 03:02:18 AM] Encouraging Roar - Tier 3 applied a heal to Heuheuheu restoring 18,717 points to Morale.
[12/29 03:02:21 AM] Encouraging Roar - Tier 3 applied a heal to Heuheuheu restoring 19,293 points to Morale.


100/4,5*18=400% however 4,5k is too low for tier 1 mark hot, it's more like 5,5k as you can see from log, so 100/5,5*18=327%

And last, ER initial crits easily 70-80k even over 90k to tank when you have your own +5% incoming healing buff up on tank and maybe few water-lore buffs. So that initial does way more than HoT pulse when it crits and even when it doesn't.

EDIT: Basicly group hot from tier 1 to tier 3 scales 3 times, crit heal scales 3 times and finaly group hot vs. mark hot is 3 times and this reason mark hot tier 1 vs tier 3 is 3 times stronger.

EDIT2: Also I am not saying that group HoT is too strong when BR fix hits live. I am saying that mark HoT is too strong. You have to remember that even if we magicly loss abyss set, mark HoT will stay, it's not going anywhere because it has always been part of the ER skill. What abyss set did, it allowed that HoT to affect whole fellow and imho it has always been broken because you was able to maintain that hot on whole raid if you wanted. However at 115 this HoT was it mark or group was only fraction what it is now. It never played any big part of beorning healing. I have already said this but I say again, 1st full abyss runs what I healed with beorning, was without abyss set.

[QueenArleth]

Not sure if this was mentioned before, but is it possible to allow Beornings to "heal-tag" for mob kill credit? Every other healing class in the game is able to do this but not the Beorning for some reason, ever since it became a playable class.

The blue banner from captain heals every player in a small radius, effectively allowing for unlimited heal targets as long as they are in the banner, and giving the captain kill credit for whatever is killed by the healed players. I think it would be appropriate if Rejuvenating Bellow and Relentless Maul also gave kill credit to Beornings if you healed out-of-group players.

[morrthe]

it came to my attention that people want beorning nerfed because its heals are insanely powerful now, because people abusing the set bonuses. You will not fix this problem if you nerf the class, the only way to fix this issue is to get rid of the set bonuses. Or (but i think this will probably not happen) give the beorning more healing skills and increase CD on encouraging roar. If you nerf a class ive been waiting for to be fixed for 3 years.. i may not come back to this game. SO i ask that you get rid of the ability to abuse set bonuses and stop giving me BS that the beorning needs a nerf. Also this is feedback on the execute skill. Execute needs to be able to crit for the CD it has, Or make it so it doesn't take all my wrath even on a proc. If you guys nerf beorning after ive waited 3 years for it to be even a decent class. YOU WILL loose this player.

PS thanks for all the updates you have been giving us, and please continue to work on the classes but please please please listen to your feedback.

[JiiPee]

it came to my attention that people want beorning nerfed because its heals are insanely powerful now, because people abusing the set bonuses. You will not fix this problem if you nerf the class, the only way to fix this issue is to get rid of the set bonuses. Or (but i think this will probably not happen) give the beorning more healing skills and increase CD on encouraging roar. If you nerf a class ive been waiting for to be fixed for 3 years.. i may not come back to this game. SO i ask that you get rid of the ability to abuse set bonuses and stop giving me BS that the beorning needs a nerf. Also this is feedback on the execute skill. Execute needs to be able to crit for the CD it has, Or make it so it doesn't take all my wrath even on a proc. If you guys nerf beorning after ive waited 3 years for it to be even a decent class. YOU WILL loose this player.

PS thanks for all the updates you have been giving us, and please continue to work on the classes but please please please listen to your feedback.

Abyss set is NOT exploit.
Abyss set was never issue at lvl115
Abyss set was never issue at lvl120 until beorning changes begin
Abyss set became issue because some reason devs scaled Encouraging Roar HoT too much.
Again Abyss set is not issue. Issue is ER HoT what is way too strong compared to what it used to be, when it didn't play any major or even minor role in Beorning healing.

This is ER from 115 with Abyss set
https://www.dropbox.com/s/33kl78coxpkw6r0/ER_old.png

As you can see that is NOT OP heal at all, in fact I don't think it never even had Tiering feature at 115 and even if it had, scaling was very very small that it didn't really affect much. Tank did get Tiering HoT but again, it's acaling was so small that it had no major or even minor role at healing.
Now that HoT is little lower at tier 1 but at tier 3 it's about double what it used to be. And I'm speaking about group hot now. Mark HoT with or without abyss set is 3 times stronger than this group HoT.

EDIT: This is the issue
https://www.dropbox.com/s/o45iic6v3m7a4bl/ER_new.png

Left side is group HoT scaling and right side is marked target HoT scaling.

[dsltn07]

This is nothing Vastin did, we've always had HoT scaling with mark of grimbeorn. I'm fairly sure my Tier 3 ER would heal somewhere around 10k per tick when I healed T2 throne a few times back in the day at 105. You never noticed it before, because it did not apply to the full fellowship. It's possible that with the stat scaling change that our healing was not affected for some reason and so it only went up from 115 along with all the major stat increases. Each gear piece now has 4x the stats the 115 gear did.

[JiiPee]

This is nothing Vastin did, we've always had HoT scaling with mark of grimbeorn. I'm fairly sure my Tier 3 ER would heal somewhere around 10k per tick when I healed T2 throne a few times back in the day at 105. You never noticed it before, because it did not apply to the full fellowship. It's possible that with the stat scaling change that our healing was not affected for some reason and so it only went up from 115 along with all the major stat increases. Each gear piece now has 4x the stats the 115 gear did.

Sorry but no, I did test it many times back in days and that HoT never scaled much. It scaled prolly worse than RK writ of health. 10k crit pulse was normal back in days but non crit never ever hit 10k as far as I remember. And actually here is video from my beorning healing starting days what shows that crit pulses was prolly around 6-7k what are in line with skill tooltip HoT and that HoT never scaled much until beorning changes started.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIpcpdSoatU

It may be that Vastin didn't scale thouse hots yes, but this high scaling may be side effect when he fixed beorning tactical heal rating. Now that tactical heal rating does scale heals alot, back in days it had almost no effect.

[Starina]

I think one issue here is casual player against hard-dedicated-want-it-really-challenging raider. In my case, I bought the bear (they don't come free, as we all know) and then found the class was clunky and not very enjoyable to play, plus it was hard to find groups interested in having a Beorning tag along. Now we are given mainly heal position in groups, in dps we are still somewhat lack luster, and tanking does not seem fully valid either, even though possible, but it certainly seems more challenging than to play a guardian tank.

Personally I was not praying to become a healing bear, that's not my sweetest dreams fulfilled, but it is okayish, yet again - those who say the hot ticking on tank needs to be nerfed have to consider if you do not have abyss set, we can end having to come off the tank to heal up dps if our group heal doesn't by chance crit on the players who really need it that moment. Maul in situations where there can be knocks, I have found often ends useless, and with no abyss set, no hot ticking on group. I then have to try heal up oe or even more dps as fast as I can, unable to heal the tank during that time, while waiting for my group heal to come off cd. Thus nerfing the hot ticking on tank only works if we get an aoe hot that aids us to heal up dps in the group (as well as ourselves) NOT linked to a set which for some of us is unobtainable and will be outdated soon enough anyway.

Glimmer T3 I heal afk even with my LM, any healer can heal glimmer T3 in their sleep, but I also feel some here seem to me at least, speak for well organized raid groups, with players who know their classes well and spend a lot of time studying positions and what not. For many of us though, we heal PUGS. We end healing struggling tanks, champs who get into frontal boss aoes and and and. This makes healing challenging without it being a T3 raid, so I wonder if it comes down to very different group situations encountered, that those who heal well functioning groups find it more boring, because frankly they usually have less healing to do then a PUG healer, so they feel bear is op.

[CaerArianrhod]

Beorning still needs general nerf to healing.

No!

So please don't tell me that I don't know what I am talking about.

But it seems that is true, because:

Right now TG T3 can be mostly done with just single skill. I did heal many trash pulls with just ER. Your MAIN heal for tank and for group is Encouraging Roar Tier 3 HoT! As longt as you maintain that HoT, your safe.

1.) Of course if you are able to use the bugged abyss set, it IS OP, and that should be a reason, to nerf healing, instead of fixing the bug and cap the abyss set at level 119?
Asking for a nerf because of a bug is really what i would call "the person is not knowing, what he/she is talking about"

What I wanna see is healing nerfed in general, ER HoT requires big nerf for tier scaling,

2.) Again NO!
Do yourself a favor please and look you own parses! The HoT are 99.9% in range of the tool tip. If you are talking about the hot actually you are talking about the crit, more precisely about the magnitude of the the crit and that is a very different thing!

Look, even if I removed abyss set bonus,[...]

As you can see, there is crits for each tier with and without mark and it also show how group HoT

You really should not talk about removing the set and group HoT in the same context, because a Beo do not have any group HoT without the abyss set.

I would rather take that solid 6-7k HoT and around 20k crits rolling all a time on group and thats what we get when fix goes live (thats how it works on BR or did work when I was last there).

Agree, if this is included in the trait tree and not depending on any set.

Also when I said that HoT does 60k pulses, I don't think there was any in that video, but I wasn't using Osg +20% crit magnitude set on that video, just did testing with it and
Encouraging Roar - Tier 3 applied a critical heal to Heuheuheu restoring 64,531 points to Morale.
Also I am missing still lot of crit rating, capping crit rating would increase my maxnitude already 10%, also I am currently 6% away from OGH cap what would also increase my healing. So 60k pulses are very much possible even without Osg set and any incoming healing buff on target or beorning own outgoing heal buff.

No and No and No. You would have maybe 60K crits!

OMG... How is this so hard to understand.

Exactly my thoughts. How hard is to understand, that there is nothing wrong with the single target HoT itself, because all what people are talking about is not the HoT but the crits!
Just try TG T3 without the abyss set. I promise you will go into melee to build up wrath and please stop arguing for a nerf because of a bugged set!

[Olebenny]

No!

Chill man, you are so aggresive in your manner, you are demonstrating you don't 100% know what you are talking about also, and admittedly I dont either since I dont play bear but they heal me alot so here is what I see. The set bonus should be removed, I agree BUT it should have its effect added to the trait tree, given a legacy on LI's and scaled properly. Until that happens the HOT is just very strong.

I think they do need a general nerf, they crit high, really really high, more than mini for sure. Can be argued that they are much more of a burst healing class but man, their bursts are very very bursty

When I do TG T3 with a mini or rk healer we bring a cappy either as the tank or in place of DPS so it can have revealing mark up, yes a RK and Mini can heal a group without but it sure as hell makes it ALOT harder to heal those dps'ers. A bear can do TG T3 with out revealing mark and never ever even come close to losing a DPS'er since the ER HoT is mis-scaled. Its a good set and what makes the bear good at AOE healing and if the set bonus should be removed then so should RK dot pulses and Warden dot pulses and Mini +crit chance from throne gear and cappy sure strike +5% damage from throne gear, and rk bb jewels, and hunter bb jewels. These bonuses come at costs to stats and so does the Bear one but the trade off for the bear is currently way to strong.

Some of these set bonuses are needed since we cant get these wonderful and rather needed bonuses added to the class. Warden not having DoT pulses as their cap stone yet is a load of horse #### quite simply, and RK's should be given some also perhaps (maybe not +2 but +1 as a cap stone would be good and given that one extra on a set along with something else from current end game raid) And the bear set falls under the same line as warden set IMO.

It is way too strong of a HoT but the gear is fine and no way it stays as it is going into the raid, this forum is blowing up over it, Vastin will for sure have seen it and im certain he'll adjust the HoT as he deems necessary

[Sarthien90]

Some of these set bonuses are needed since we cant get these wonderful and rather needed bonuses added to the class. Warden not having DoT pulses as their cap stone yet is a load of horse #### quite simply, and RK's should be given some also perhaps (maybe not +2 but +1 as a cap stone would be good and given that one extra on a set along with something else from current end game raid) And the bear set falls under the same line as warden set IMO.

Not sure if I understood, but you mean the Beorning needs that set bonus to be able to heal a group?
If so: I disagree.
As mentioned before: I don't use that set even though I could, because it is still in my vault. You could heal with the bear without that set and you can do it still. It is just a bit more challenging and sometimes you have to use your Encouraging Roar on someone else than your tank when there's trouble ahead. In that cases you are grateful for the strong tier 3 HoT on your tank while you are busy with others in your group. Although I think a slight nerf would be justified because crits are too high (around 40-50k would be good in my opinion).

In general I would say it is a mistake from many people I see posting on this forums to judge the Beorning based on an former set bonus. Not everyone uses it, not everybody wants to use old sets and future bears won't even be able (most likely, at the latest when a cap is thrown on it in future updates) to use it. We all should think future-oriented.

[Olebenny]

Not sure if I understood, but you mean the Beorning needs that set bonus to be able to heal a group?

I think it is core to what makes a bear good right now and that is their phenomenal aoe heals which could be credited to the fact the Hot is not properly scaling atm. Is it a necessity? No, to make my opinion a bit more clearer I think it falls under the scope of RK pulses, where its not super needed but a version of it would be very nice to have outside of a set bonus just at a smaller degree of what it is now

p.s. cause its worth throwing out any chance i can and we are kinda talking about old sets here.... Give wardens their darn DoT pulses as a cap stone already! :P Not only is it vital dps increase but it literally changed how they do their rotation, what bleeds they can now add to their arsenal etc

[Olebenny]

Edit to add that I see you suggested adding it to our trait tree, wanted to say that would also be a poor solution, though an improvement over the set bonus. If you were not aware, many of our traits 1/3-1/2 are fairly useless.

I think we must agree to disagree on this point then, I think adding it to the trait trees at a smaller degree of what it is now is a great idea.

And add warden dot pulses too while you're at it :P Think most people agree on that one atleast