Beorning Update Incoming

[JiiPee]

1.) Of course if you are able to use the bugged abyss set, it IS OP, and that should be a reason, to nerf healing, instead of fixing the bug and cap the abyss set at level 119?
Asking for a nerf because of a bug is really what i would call "the person is not knowing, what he/she is talking about"

Set is NOT OP. It is ER HoT what has become OP after beorning fixes started. Set is also NOT bugged in any way. It's again ER HoT what has scaled to the roof after beorning changes started.

2.) Again NO!
Do yourself a favor please and look you own parses! The HoT are 99.9% in range of the tool tip. If you are talking about the hot actually you are talking about the crit, more precisely about the magnitude of the the crit and that is a very different thing!

I have looked my OWN parses alot and I am 100% sure that HoT has NEVER been strong until beorning changes started and that started at lvl120.

You really should not talk about removing the set and group HoT in the same context, because a Beo do not have any group HoT without the abyss set.

Ofcourse I can talk it in same context because that HoT has NEVER played key role in beorning healing, again until just recently. And here is proof for you, short clip from Abyss raid with Abyss set and you can very well see from it that lvl115 that HoT was hitting 2-6,5k pulses. And that 6.5k IS CRIT PULSE. Enjoy!



So 2-6k pulse every 3sec NEVER was any major factor in beorning healing. And let me remind you, that same pulse was happening with or without mark. Without set bonus that pulse was only happening to marked person. So how can you even think that when this HoT is now hitting 60k pulses to tank, even if set was removed that it is fine? That is 10 times more than what we had just 5 lvl ago!
In fact because that HoT was so meaningless in 115, I did use mark on myself on some fights so I was getting bond procs so I didn't need to care healing MYSELF that much. Because again, keeping mark to tank or not, didn't make big difference on total healing you wasn doing to tank.

No and No and No. You would have maybe 60K crits!

Just removed my helm so no "bugged" "exploit" abyss set and marked myself, no ANY incoming healing buffs, OGH still not capped (73,1%), crit still not capped (26,7%) and this is what just happened.

Encouraging Roar - Tier 3 applied a critical heal to Heuheuheu restoring 61,540 points to Morale.

Now if my OGH was capped, that would have been little shy of 64k. So you can deny this as much as you can, but these numbers simply does not lie.

Exactly my thoughts. How hard is to understand, that there is nothing wrong with the single target HoT itself, because all what people are talking about is not the HoT but the crits!
Just try TG T3 without the abyss set. I promise you will go into melee to build up wrath and please stop arguing for a nerf because of a bugged set!

Set is NOT bugged. HoT is totally broken. lvl115 we had 2-3k pulses without crit and 6-9k pulses with crit. I do agree that HoT did require little scale up because it was around thouse same numbers in 105 days, but this what we now have is way too much. Even that group hot was NERFED to 1/3 from mark hot, I think it's still too strong, or maybe current group hot would be fine for mark.

So next time you are telling me that I am wrong, you better come up with some evidence that I am wrong, because unlike you, I do my research to back up what I am saying, I am not just yelling here "NO NO NO!"

Have a nice day.

[CaerArianrhod]

Chill man, you are so aggresive in your manner

The word has been changed a lot, if saying "No!" to a suggestion count as aggressive.

So next time you are telling me that I am wrong, you better come up with some evidence that I am wrong, because unlike you, I do my research to back up what I am saying, I am not just yelling here "NO NO NO!"

I told that you already what wrong is, but you rather like to ignore it, instead of taking into account the facts.

Set is NOT OP. It is ER HoT what has become OP after beorning fixes started. Set is also NOT bugged in any way. It's again ER HoT what has scaled to the roof after beorning changes started.

If you are not using the set, what does the ER HoT do, if you are using ER for the 4th time?
Hm .... nothing special ... well put up the set and et voilà ....something is going weird.
But of course this is not the set. Right? It is the HoT, which is working totally WAI without the set.
The HoT is not broken, the set is broken in the way, how it is applying the HoT to the group.

I have looked my OWN parses alot and I am 100% sure that HoT has NEVER been strong until beorning changes started and that started at lvl120.

This is absolutely true! I never said that the HoT is still the same as it was back to level cap 115.

Just removed my helm so no "bugged" "exploit" abyss set and marked myself, no ANY incoming healing buffs, OGH still not capped (73,1%), crit still not capped (26,7%) and this is what just happened.

Encouraging Roar - Tier 3 applied a critical heal to Heuheuheu restoring 61,540 points to Morale.

Now if my OGH was capped, that would have been little shy of 64k. So you can deny this as much as you can, but these numbers simply does not lie.

Once again please, you are talking about the Critical Magnitude of the HoT and not the normal HoT itself.
I just can not understand, why ppl are ignoring this fact so persistent.

If the Devs nerfing the HoT by 50% a Beorning will be 100% dependent on critical rating and one will have to overcap crit to get a higher magnitude. That is not how a balance should work. If we are looking for healing class, which is depending on critical rating, we already have the minstrel.

Have a nice day.

You too and a good start into the New Year!

[Hildilas]

For ***** sake.

1.They HAVE to put a max Level on ALL old sets first.
2.They should Change the set due to the Buff of ER. The set is old, it should not define end game.
3. Beo does not rely on this set at ALL, he is a very good healer without it and OP with it.

[JiiPee]

I told that you already what wrong is, but you rather like to ignore it, instead of taking into account the facts.

Because you are trying to tell that abyss set is to blaim that ER HoT is now so strong that it is in fact TOP beorning heal "skill" with or without set! You just keep ignoring that fact.

If you are not using the set, what does the ER HoT do, if you are using ER for the 4th time?
Hm .... nothing special ... well put up the set and et voilà ....something is going weird.
But of course this is not the set. Right? It is the HoT, which is working totally WAI without the set.
The HoT is not broken, the set is broken in the way, how it is applying the HoT to the group.

It refresh HoT timer, very important stuff if this is direction where Beorning heal is wanted to go, it's very important that yor HoT is all a time ticking at MAX tier. And set is still not broken, it's Vastin code change what got broken when he NERFED group hot to 1/3 of mark HoT what is broken. Before that code change there wasn't any issue with that HoT. Thist whole 4th use of ER is already fixed on bullroarer. And how many times I need to say this: HoT has never been played major part of Beorning healing, until just recently.



There you can see Beorning HoT before major changes. As you can see it's doing 4-5k pulses and critting 10-14k + that time HoT still HAD initial heal, that initial heal is thouse over 8k pops you can see.
As you can see it has already scaled up quite much just by going from 115 to 120 and that was when we got big stat changes what affected beorning healing very positive way in general, scaled beorning heals up quite much.

This is absolutely true! I never said that the HoT is still the same as it was back to level cap 115.

But you seems to think that HoT is currently perfectly FINE as long as nobody use abyss set.

Once again please, you are talking about the Critical Magnitude of the HoT and not the normal HoT itself.
I just can not understand, why ppl are ignoring this fact so persistent.

Because crit heals play very very big role in every healer heals. Normal heal vs. crit heal difference is ~3 times. So 20k HoT when it crits becomes 60k. Minio relies veri heavily to crit heals, thats why throne +5% heal crit set is quite much must have for mini healer now.

If the Devs nerfing the HoT by 50% a Beorning will be 100% dependent on critical rating and one will have to overcap crit to get a higher magnitude. That is not how a balance should work. If we are looking for healing class, which is depending on critical rating, we already have the minstrel.

Before changes HoT was 4-6k pulses, now it's 16-20k pulses and you still cannot see what is wrong? Even if it was nerfed to HALF it would stil be stronger than it was before changes started, it would be 8-10k pulses and 24-30k crits.

ER tier 1 4697-6710
ER tier 2 9643-13775
ER tier 3 14609-20871

Now lets take each tier max value and do some math.
100/6710*13775=205,3%
100/13775*20871=151,5%
100/6710*20871=311%

So tier 1 to tier 2 scaling is over double, tier 2 to tier 3 it slows down and is anymore little over half. And total scaling from tier 1 to tier 3 is over triple. THIS is the issue, it has never ever scaled this much. Sadly I do not have old screenshots anywhere how it scaled before but it was so weak scaling that it wasn't really worth it to even take care that you had tier 3 all a time running.

Now lets take RK heals as compare.

Bombastic tier 1 1313-1875
Bombastic tier 2 1533-2191
Bombastic tier 3 1758-2511

Tier 1 to tier 2 116,9%
Tier 2 to tier 3 114,6%
Tier 1 to tier 3 133,9%

Bombastic splash tier 1 8867-9850
Bombastic splash tier 2 10667-11853
Bombastic splash tier 3 12275-13639

Tier 1 to tier 2 120,3%
Tier 2 to tier 3 115%
Tier 1 to tier 3 138,5%


Writ tier 1 1778-2540
Writ tier 2 2103-3004
Writ tier 3 2430-3472

Tier 1 to tier 2 118%
Tier 2 to tier 3 115,6%
Tier 1 to tier 3 136,7%


By using Writ % ER would look like this:
ER tier 1 4697-6710
ER tier 2 5542-7918
ER tier 3 6421-9173

This would still do around 30k crit pulses at tier 3.


Now by looking thouse numbers and refreshing memory how little that hot scaled back in days it may be that tier 2 increase was 5% and tier 3 was 10%. And then someone just went havoc and added 100% to tier 2 and 200% to tier 3.

[ColMcStacky]

This is nothing Vastin did, we've always had HoT scaling with mark of grimbeorn.

Not directly, no. Vastin fixed Tactical Healing Rating for Beornings during his class updates. I'm pretty sure that Encouraging Roar's HoT getting insane scaling is due to this change, and wasn't something that Vastin purposefully scaled by 3-5x its previous magnitude. This was just a small heal that wasn't shown by any skill/trait tooltips that got overlooked.


Also just want to say that I think everyone needs to calm down a fair bit, as this scaling is obviously a bug and will hopefully be getting fixed soon. Everyone pitched different solutions, be it incorporating the Abyss set bonus into the trait line, flat nerf to HoT/heals, or just leaving it alone. Everyone has already started arguing over which is the objectively better solution from a subjective list. After at least 5 pages of arguing this point back and forth between the same people, you obviously aren't going to agree with each other. All you're doing at this point is spamming the feedback thread, trying to get the last "neener neener!" in.

[CaerArianrhod]

Because you are trying to tell that abyss set is to blaim that ER HoT is now so strong that it is in fact TOP beorning heal "skill" with or without set! You just keep ignoring that fact.

No, what i'm telling is, that with the set the Beo is OP in healing.

It refresh HoT timer, very important stuff if this is direction where Beorning heal is wanted to go, it's very important that yor HoT is all a time ticking at MAX tier.

They are many skill in the game, which procs refresh the proc/effect timer if the effect is a max tier, therefore the "nothing special".

And set is still not broken,

The set is broken. You can call it "Vastin's code is broken" or what ever. The set as it is now, is broken in the way how it applies the ER's HoT to the group.

But you seems to think that HoT is currently perfectly FINE as long as nobody use abyss set.

Yes. The HoT is perfectly fine. What is your problem with it? oh .... wait, i know: it can crit and the critical magnitude is to high.
...

OK being serious: a agree that the tier 2 and tier 3 version of ER are a bit to high, but this is noway a reason fro calling for a "massive nerf". I don't want see another minstrel class copy. (and yes, i have a mini and I'm playing it in T3 too)

Because crit heals play very very big role in every healer heals. Normal heal vs. crit heal difference is ~3 times. So 20k HoT when it crits becomes 60k. Minio relies veri heavily to crit heals, thats why throne +5% heal crit set is quite much must have for mini healer now.

Here we go, now you are telling me the reason why the adjustment and not a nerf as ppl asking here for of the HoT has to be done on a very carefully way and not just swing the nerf-hammer. WHY on earth are so many ppl are so quick with "need a nerf" instead of thinking?!?
You want see the Beorning again a play-on-sunday-for-rp class??? If you say "must have for mini healer now" (once again an old set!!!) then think about what you are asking for the Beo, then this was exactly the same with the mini: too much cry about how op it is. Ppl really has to realize: if you ask for a nerf, you will always get more than you asked for.

[JiiPee]

No, what i'm telling is, that with the set the Beo is OP in healing.

Beorning will be OP with or without set if that HoT is not nerfed. In raid situation DPS will pull it's main healing via CAPPY blue mark so it does not matter how strong or weak beorning GROUP HoT is.

They are many skill in the game, which procs refresh the proc/effect timer if the effect is a max tier, therefore the "nothing special".

It does have quite a big difference is it tier 1 HoT or is it tier 3 hot. One is doing 3x more healing so it really matters alot if you refresh it or not.

The set is broken. You can call it "Vastin's code is broken" or what ever. The set as it is now, is broken in the way how it applies the ER's HoT to 1the group.

Set is not broken, code behind this 1/3 group hot nerf is broken and general HoT is just way too strong no matter if it's mark no no mark hot. Set was never ever OP at lvl115.

Yes. The HoT is perfectly fine. What is your problem with it? oh .... wait, i know: it can crit and the critical magnitude is to high.

It's generally too strong no matter if it crit or not. It has become about 4 times stronger than it was at lvl115 our morale pool haven't gone up 4 times to justify this high increase. Only what could justify some increase is the fact that HoT didn't really scale almost at all from lvl 105 to 115 but still 4 times is too much.

OK being serious: a agree that the tier 2 and tier 3 version of ER are a bit to high, but this is noway a reason fro calling for a "massive nerf". I don't want see another minstrel class copy. (and yes, i have a mini and i'm playing it in T3 too)

So mini can ST around 15k, beorning can ST over 30k if he/she wants and what is not required in TG T3, now 7-8k from that over 30k comes from HoT alone. Bear can do 15k ST without even trying when mini really need to work to get 15k out.
Sure beorning healing is much more burst has always been, but this HoT ticking all a time stabilize it alot. When tank gets heavy hit and your in wrong part of your rotation (popped just man form) it's not anymore "Oh ####!" moment because you can be sure that HoT will keep tank alive.
What I wanna see is Beorning heals generally nerfed back to lvl what they was when changes started because that was more than enough to heal TG T3 and also revert back CD change for beorning bear form heal skills because that CD change only increased burst together with buff for thouse skills.

Here we go, now you are telling me the reason why the adjustment and not a nerf as ppl asking here for of the HoT has to be done on a very carefully way and not just swing the herf-hammer. WHY on earth are so many ppl are so quick with "need a nerf" instead of thinking?!?
You want see the Beorning again a play-on-sunday-for-rp class??? If you say "must have for mini healer now" (once again an old set!!!) then think about what you are asking for the Beo, then this was exatly the same with the mini: too much cry about how op it is. Ppl really has to realize: if you ask for a nerf, you will always get more than you asked for.

You gotta remember that there is skill cutting what affects mini healing alot. If you don't know how, then your heals suffer alot. Bolster -> SoS cutting is not that easy, gotta do it exactly right moment or it actually hurts your healing because too soon SoS will cancel bolster and too late, well your next bolster takes longer than just spamming bolster.

I would love to see max lvl limit to added all old gear what gives some sort of bonus for skills, also all jewelry what people use pre-fight. In my opinion it's just stupid that we need to rely to old gear bonuses with so many classes.
As long as bonus give you more gain than the loss is, people keep using them.

Sadly I think we won't never gonna see max lvl limit on all old items because it would cause just too much crying from people who have thouse gears. I'm sure that we all have seen hunter screenshots where there is like 6 relic jewelry in skillbars. They are very old jewelry what gives you nice bonuses when you use them pre-fight and then you get insane numbers start of the fight. Locking that stuff could also balance out pvp.

[morrthe]

First off i read your argument on why you think the beorning ER should be nerfed. NO. 60K crits are fairly normal for a healer, if you ask for a nerf on it it will become an obsolete class. Which it has been an obsolete class for ever since its release. Dont give me BS like 64K crits are OP as hell. The set bonuses is what should be nerfed, reason being thats where the bug is. The bug is NOT in ER. Minstrels get 60-70K crits regularly. Now i dont play the Minstrel but i do play the beorning. If the beorning is going to compete with the minstrel on its "single target" healing ER MUST NOT be nerfed! I do agree that the beorning should have an AoE healing skill that does 6-7K and 20K on crits. If you go for a nerf on the set bonuses than beorning actually has a chance of competing with the minstrel in single target at least.

The set bonuses are what need to be nerfed.

nerfing ER will only piss people off. If you want beorning to literally be the worst class in the game, thats your choice. but if you choose to nerf it to the ground because you know your right and everyone else is wrong. Then you will kill this game. Its already dying because people like you wont see reason.

ALSO beorning has been the worst class in the game for a very very, long time. Its about time it got a buff like this.
Beorning is also the most expensive class in the game. If its the most expensive class just to be "balanced" with other classes, WHATS THE DAMN POINT OF BUYING IT?!! i agree with fixing things that are completely broken such as the set bonuses, but its about time that this class is actually viable for something. Also this might make people buy the class which makes people spend their money cause they want a good class. Spending money makes the developers happy which in turn gives us better content.

(@ devs) Feedback on various skills.

Execute--- Execute needs to be able to crit for the CD it has. Or make execute have a CD of say 3s with the proc that doesnt kill your wrath.

Sacrifice--- This skill is pretty useless in its current state. It needs to be completly reworked for each line. Theres no chance i will use it in red. Next to nothing in yellow. and barely at all in blue. For blue your going to be trying to tank and giving wrath every time your ally is hit is pretty useless if your the one that is supposedly taking the hits. i suggest to keep it about the same in blue, but instead a single target skill make it for every fellowship member in range. Nothing too broken so like -25% - 40% incoming damg on fellowship. also make it so when yourself gets hit it builds wrath. Red would be simililar but instead of -incoming damg make it a damg buff or something of the sort. Yellow maybe could be a fellowship wide heal with an incoming healing buff. Or just an incoming healing buff.

Relentless maul.--- Relentless maul needs to be more useful for red. it need to be able to spread bashes bleed or slashes bleed, or both. In yellow its an alright heal but, it really isnt worth using unless your in an easy fight. make it spread incoming healing or something. In blue its nice that it has a taunt, but you wouldnt use it for its full duration so maybe as its channel gets lower it minuses the damg you take by like 10% increments every second.

Thickened Hide.--- its a good skill but its the only panic skill a tanking bear has atm. Either reduce its CD to like 45s or give us more skills to block, parry and evade.

New skill suggestions.

New AoE heal for yellow. This is to partially compensate for the nerf on the set bonuses that alot of people have suggested. but dont make it too OP maybe 6-7K with 20K crits every 5 seconds or something. Was actually Jiipees suggestion on the numbers and i agree with him on this. make it have like a 20s duration with a 2 minute CD with the option in the trait tree to reduce to like 1min30s.

New AoE damaging skill. Red needs more bearform AoE it only has 2 would be nice to see something like raging blades from champion only on bearform.

New single target taunt. @devs, you said you wanted beorning more of a single target tanking class. Make a new single target taunt that has longer range then vigilant roar. Just for the initial pull cause vigilant roar has not much range.

[JiiPee]

First off i read your argument on why you think the beorning ER should be nerfed. NO. 60K crits are fairly normal for a healer, if you ask for a nerf on it it will become an obsolete class. Which it has been an obsolete class for ever since its release. Dont give me BS like 64K crits are OP as hell. The set bonuses is what should be nerfed, reason being thats where the bug is. The bug is NOT in ER. Minstrels get 60-70K crits regularly. Now i dont play the Minstrel but i do play the beorning. If the beorning is going to compete with the minstrel on its "single target" healing ER MUST NOT be nerfed! I do agree that the beorning should have an AoE healing skill that does 6-7K and 20K on crits. If you go for a nerf on the set bonuses than beorning actually has a chance of competing with the minstrel in single target at least.

Can you please show me any other healing class what does over 60k crit pulse heals from HoT?
Oh yeah there is 0 other. You are now mixing of splash heals and HoT, it's perfect fine that splash heal what has quite long CD does 60k crits but when we have HoT doing that, then something is simply wrong! And even if this god damn OP HoT was REMOVED totally, beorning will still out heal everyone else.

The set bonuses are what need to be nerfed.

Set bonus is already nerfed, ER HoT is what needs to be nerfed.

nerfing ER will only piss people off. If you want beorning to literally be the worst class in the game, thats your choice. but if you choose to nerf it to the ground because you know your right and everyone else is wrong. Then you will kill this game. Its already dying because people like you wont see reason.

I haven't said anything about ER nerf, I want ER HoT to be nerfed, what I have said is ER and bellow needs to be reversed back to where they was before changes started and CD's also reversed so that we won't be this BURST like we are now.

ALSO beorning has been the worst class in the game for a very very, long time. Its about time it got a buff like this.
Beorning is also the most expensive class in the game. If its the most expensive class just to be "balanced" with other classes, WHATS THE DAMN POINT OF BUYING IT?!! i agree with fixing things that are completely broken such as the set bonuses, but its about time that this class is actually viable for something. Also this might make people buy the class which makes people spend their money cause they want a good class. Spending money makes the developers happy which in turn gives us better content.

Set bonus.. set bonus... set bonus...
Set bonus was not OP at lvl115. It became OP when ER HoT became OP. And because beorning may have been at bad spot long, it doesn't mean that next 3 years it must be OP AF class because hey, we was so bad spot so long, we have every right to be OP now!

Sacrifice--- This skill is pretty useless in its current state. It needs to be completly reworked for each line. Theres no chance i will use it in red. Next to nothing in yellow. and barely at all in blue. For blue your going to be trying to tank and giving wrath every time your ally is hit is pretty useless if your the one that is supposedly taking the hits. i suggest to keep it about the same in blue, but instead a single target skill make it for every fellowship member in range. Nothing too broken so like -25% - 40% incoming damg on fellowship. also make it so when yourself gets hit it builds wrath. Red would be simililar but instead of -incoming damg make it a damg buff or something of the sort. Yellow maybe could be a fellowship wide heal with an incoming healing buff. Or just an incoming healing buff.

Strongly disagree with this. Sacrifice is very good skill on yellow line when you trait it fully from blue and red line. Redirect 75% damage to yourself. 20% gets absorbed because of yellow tree trait and another 20% gets absorbed because of red trait. This makes it quite safe skill to use to tank so that you don't blow up yourself.

Relentless maul.--- In yellow its an alright heal but, it really isnt worth using unless your in an easy fight.

Strongly disagree with this one. Yellow maul is more than good specially when it gets fixed and it also heal yourself. Lets take example TG boss 3, nothing better than maul when adds comes in and tank haven't got aggro from all of them yet. Just pop maul and enjoy 12-40k heals popping to everyone, every second for 8 second. I would say that skill is in yellow maybe even too good.

New AoE heal for yellow. This is to partially compensate for the nerf on the set bonuses that alot of people have suggested. but dont make it too OP maybe 6-7K with 20K crits every 5 seconds or something. Was actually Jiipees suggestion on the numbers and i agree with him on this. make it have like a 20s duration with a 2 minute CD with the option in the trait tree to reduce to like 1min30s.

Problem is when you have skill with long CD, it becomes so precious that you do not use it at all because your saving it to "oh ####!" moment, or you blame yourself that you used it wrong time if you keep using it when it's available. Perfect example is mini FH.

New single target taunt. @devs, you said you wanted beorning more of a single target tanking class. Make a new single target taunt that has longer range then vigilant roar. Just for the initial pull cause vigilant roar has not much range.

Please no. Bear already have 4 force taunts, no more. Cappy and warden have 2 and it warden only got it's 2nd force taunt just recently. We could use legacy for increased range. Add it as secondary to some legacy or make new legacy for something and add range as secondary.

This is what I've been trying to say for the last week JiiPee. I want the class to be balanced on the basic skills, not the set bonus for a 5 level range. I agreed with you the crit magnitude on ER might need to be reduced, but the important thing to me is that we have the important skills and background to properly fill a healing role.

And I have been trying to say that this set bonus became issue only just very recently. And it's not crit magnitude what need nerf, it's HoT scaling what needs nerf if we now start to touch crit magnitude, it most likely affect all healing classes and if it gets nerfed then mini will be in serious troubles, after all mini healing is now all about crits.

You have brought up how much weaker the minstrel is multiple times, but you've only been looking at heal numbers. Keep in mind that not counting relentless maul, we ONLY have FOUR healing skills, and now 2 of them are on 9 and 14 second cooldowns. The current problem is that ER fills all the roles for a healer at once. It needs to be reduced, set bonus redone, and we need new skills. Primarily, at least one AoE HoT, ideally for man form.

Set bonus is not an issue if ER HoT is reversed back to where it was before changes. Like 10th times, that set wasn't OP at lvl115, it wasn't OP at start of the 120 era. It was only nice to have, made your life little bit more easy, but it wasn't required. It still isn't required, but having it makes healing stupidly easy.
I think best would be to bring this group HoT feature in with some trait change and make this set bonus to add lets say +2 pulses. Maybe then everyone would be happy. Or make set to give +20% crit magnitude like Osgiliath 2-set gives.

Even if you consider a 64k HoT, it's only every 3 seconds which boils down to ~20k/s. I am quite sure a mini/RK can outpace 20k/s. I'm not saying it's good balance since it's all from one skill, but don't give the false impression that it's 5 times more healing than any other dedicated healer. Like you said yourself, it can be a struggle to keep Tier 3 up on tank at all times when dps takes a heavy hit and requires you to use ER for them.

Mini cannot do even near 20k ST HPS, some say that if mini does 10k HPS ST, it's already good. I think best minies can do like 15k ST HPS now by reading mini forum and RK can do 20k.

Here is 23k ST HPS and thats relaxing rotation where you never run out of wrath.


And before someone start to ask why I don't spam ER? Well there is very simple reason. If you keep spamming it every time when it's off cd, your ER HoT suffers because you keep refreshing it after 1 pulse. 1st pulse happens 3sec after you use ER, so when you keep spamming ER when it's off cd, ER splash heal happens every 5sec and same happens to HoT pulse, it happens every 5sec.
So currently you get most steady healing to tank by letting HoT tick and because RB cd is 9sec, ER HoT have time to tick just 3 times before you refresh it and you are not wasting seconds like you do when you spam ER.

This is what I have been trying to say that currently ER HoT is beorning main healing "skill".

[CaerArianrhod]

In raid situation DPS will pull it's main healing via CAPPY blue mark so it does not matter how strong or weak beorning GROUP HoT is.

This is only true, if one totally ignore melee DPS classes.

It does have quite a big difference is it tier 1 HoT or is it tier 3 hot. One is doing 3x more healing so it really matters alot if you refresh it or not.
Set is not broken, code behind this 1/3 group hot nerf is broken and general HoT is just way too strong no matter if it's mark no no mark hot. Set was never ever OP at lvl115.

Yes, it does a different if tier 1 or tier 3, but refreshing a timer on max tier of an effect is not a unique attribute of this skill in the game.
It is irrelevant what the set was at 115, things has been changed and we are 120. (and before you ask: i have the set, and by Beo was my first alt, which completed Abyss, so i healed without the set too). You said, that the set's hot was not worth to use it but if you made use of it, it didn't apply with the 4th use of ER on the intial target the same hot for the group as for the initial target and then made itself unrefreshable until it timed out. The set is broken now, as it applies the hot in the wrong way for the group.

It's generally too strong no matter if it crit or not. It has become about 4 times stronger than it was at lvl115 our morale pool haven't gone up 4 times to justify this high increase. Only what could justify some increase is the fact that HoT didn't really scale almost at all from lvl 105 to 115 but still 4 times is too much.

You said elswhere, that the HoT was too small, and you allready describen the problem with the HoT here: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...48#post7904248
If you have a melee class at a boss with damage aura like Fror, you maybe give the melee a hot too. For me it is too situation depending if we can always provide the tier 3 HoT on the tank.

So mini can ST around 15k, beorning can ST over 30k if he/she wants and what is not required in TG T3, now 7-8k from that over 30k comes from HoT alone. Bear can do 15k ST without even trying when mini really need to work to get 15k out.
Sure beorning healing is much more burst has always been, but this HoT ticking all a time stabilize it alot. When tank gets heavy hit and your in wrong part of your rotation (popped just man form) it's not anymore "Oh ####!" moment because you can be sure that HoT will keep tank alive.

Albeit that the mini is the weakest healer in numbers at this time (and without question the mini needs a fix and an upgrade), a mini can provide other things like -4% inc. damge for the group and an additional -3% inc damage for the tank, for the "Oh ####!" moment" the coda and two Bolster Courage and Chord of Salvation (10s Cd and can crit high too). Not to mention the 3 anthems for 3min and after that still the Anthem of Composure etc.

What I wanna see is Beorning heals generally nerfed back to lvl what they was when changes started [...]

This is exactly what i do not want see! Balance the class further, but not nerf it back into the meaninglessness!

You gotta remember that there is skill cutting what affects mini healing alot.

Yes, and i remember the everlasting discussion about this technique also, but it shows how bad the the state of the game itself is.

And because beorning may have been at bad spot long, it doesn't mean that next 3 years it must be OP AF class because hey, we was so bad spot so long, we have every right to be OP now!

Why not? Actually i like this idea of you really!

This is what I have been trying to say that currently ER HoT is beorning main healing "skill".

Yes, and nerfig it to "six feet under" as you whish, will help the class in what way????

[Fasin]

The hot needs to be nerfed. Bears already bring the best dps buffing as a healer to the group (yellow minstrels can do about the same damage boosts, but are not viable healers), and having the top hps by such a massive margin on top of the amazing damage buffs makes the class ridiculously overpowered. A hot should never heal anywhere near as much as a direct heal.

[CaerArianrhod]

The hot needs to be nerfed. Bears already bring the best dps buffing as a healer to the group

And that insane group dps buffing would be what exactly?

The hot needs to be nerfed [...] and having the top hps by such a massive margin on top of the amazing damage buffs makes the class ridiculously overpowered. A hot should never heal anywhere near as much as a direct heal.

This was the very same argumentation that was used not a long time ago against the minstrel and then minstrel got nerfed (and i mean nerfed!).

[Fasin1]

And that insane group dps buffing would be what exactly?



This was the very same argumentation that was used not a long time ago against the minstrel and then minstrel got nerfed (and i mean nerfed!).

Minstrels got nerfed too much, does not change how powerful bears are currently.

But I see no point in arguing with someone who doesn't play the bear, or at least doesn't play it enough to know their single target dps buffing capabilities.

[JiiPee]

This is only true, if one totally ignore melee DPS classes.

Cappy mark heal is no way tied to ranged dps.

Yes, it does a different if tier 1 or tier 3, but refreshing a timer on max tier of an effect is not a unique attribute of this skill in the game.

3-times scaling IS unique and it came in just recently. And THAT is the reason why it is so IMPORTANT to keep that tier 3 HoT alive!

It is irrelevant what the set was at 115, things has been changed and we are 120. (and before you ask: i have the set, and by Beo was my first alt, which completed Abyss, so i healed without the set too). You said, that the set's hot was not worth to use it but if you made use of it, it didn't apply with the 4th use of ER on the intial target the same hot for the group as for the initial target and then made itself unrefreshable until it timed out. The set is broken now, as it applies the hot in the wrong way for the group.

I have said that set was nice to have, but not required because that HoT wasn't very strong. It only made your life little easier. It never was main heal for tank or group like it is now. And even without set, HoT is still MAIN heal to tank if beorning is doing anything else than spam only ER, ER spam really hurts that HoT healing now because of this CD change what is not divided by HoT pulse time. Spamming ER makes HoT tick every 5sec.
Again, morale pool haven't doubled, still beorning total HPS has more than doubled. Thats why it matters what healing was at 115. We do not need this strong heals. Same time mini healing haven't scaled at all or if it has, only little.
Abyss time I was doing 10-13k usually to tank, depending was I healing cappy or guardian. And they usually had around 10% incoming healing slotted and that required some work. Now I'm doing 23k HPS without even trying, just chilling. My point is that bearning healing has come now so easy that anyone watching that video I posted can go and aria beorning WP lvl to 120, then copy that rotation and do ~20k HPS single target. (Assuming that person have resources to fast lvl up LI's what is another story)

With mini you simply cannot do it. Mini requires hours and hours experience and learning even if you watch some mini doing perfect rotation. There is lot of minis who cannot currently do even 10k HPS single target. When we was grinding Storvagun, there was on one run mini healing cappy who did only under 6k, in fact cappy outhealed that mini with self heals.

You said elswhere, that the HoT was too small, and you allready describen the problem with the HoT here: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...48#post7904248
If you have a melee class at a boss with damage aura like Fror, you maybe give the melee a hot too. For me it is too situation depending if we can always provide the tier 3 HoT on the tank.

I have said that it was nice to have but not required because it was quite weak HoT and because it didn't scale almost at all from tier 1 to tier 3, it really didn't matter much what tier HoT you had rolling.

Albeit that the mini is the weakest healer in numbers at this time (and without question the mini needs a fix and an upgrade), a mini can provide other things like -4% inc. damge for the group and an additional -3% inc damage for the tank, for the "Oh ####!" moment" the coda and two Bolster Courage and Chord of Salvation (10s Cd and can crit high too). Not to mention the 3 anthems for 3min and after that still the Anthem of Composure etc.

And beorning have sacrifice. If you have traited sacrifice from blue and red, it's safe skill to use even on Fror start. Mini simply does not have anything as powerfull as sacrifice. 40% absorbed damage is huge. Chord can crit alot yes, but it has 10sec cd. Bear can do 2xER in that time what means that there is also 2 OP HoT pulses. Or if you wait little, 2ER and 3 pulses. And ER splash crit even more than chord.

This is exactly what i do not want see! Balance the class further, but not nerf it back into the meaninglessness!

I'm not asking to nerf it meaningless! I am asking to reverse healing back to what it was before this madness started! Because that was more than enough heals. I don't wanna post video anymore what I have already posted. That TG T3 last boss video is BEFORE all this changes started and iirc I did to tank around 20k HPS on that run. How can't you accept that beorning heals scaled quite much up with lvl increase?

Yes, and i remember the everlasting discussion about this technique also, but it shows how bad the the state of the game itself is.

Sure I'm not fan of all the animation cutting tricks what we in fact have way too much between all the classes, but at least they requires you to learn stuff, but they also make too big cap between 2 players, one who knows all the tricks and one who doesn't what is bad.

Why not? Actually i like this idea of you really!

Then you are ignorant.

Yes, and nerfig it to "six feet under" as you whish, will help the class in what way????

How putting us back to 20k HPS ST range would be nerfing us to dead? And that was without maul what would push it up quite much.

Again, Beorning HEALING was quite spot on before changes started. It was more about issue with other things on yellow line that required fixing, like rezz what is now fixed.

[JiiPee]

And that insane group dps buffing would be what exactly?



This was the very same argumentation that was used not a long time ago against the minstrel and then minstrel got nerfed (and i mean nerfed!).

And mini was quite spot on at lvl115. Some say that it still is. It's Beorning what is just way too OP and was kinda OP already when this all started.

[CaerArianrhod]

But I see no point in arguing with someone who doesn't play the bear, or at least doesn't play it enough to know their single target dps buffing capabilities.

Look what you said:

Bears already bring the best dps buffing as a healer to the group [...]

Do you see the difference in your very own sentences?
Instead of insulting me, you could simply confess, that you made a mistake.

[CaerArianrhod]

Cappy mark heal is no way tied to ranged dps.

Yes, i know, but as i said also: it is very situation depending, how much healing a melee DPS needs and you know well, that for example a Champ or Burg does not that much damage as a Hunter or RK.

3-times scaling IS unique and it came in just recently. And THAT is the reason why it is so IMPORTANT to keep that tier 3 HoT alive!

3 times scaling in the game - better to say: tier up - is not unique, just for example, Wind-Lore from the LM can be tier up to tier 3, Wardens Conviction can be tier up to tier 10 and so on.
I was speaking about the scaling/tier-up mechanic of skills in generally, and that is not something unique as a mechanic. This mechanic is just now have been added to ER, and that is the only new thing about it. This is why i said the 4th ER does nothing special (because the mechanic behind is not new in the game, it is just new for ER)

I have said that set was nice to have, but not required because that HoT wasn't very strong. It only made your life little easier. It never was main heal for tank or group like it is now. And even without set, HoT is still MAIN heal to tank if beorning is doing anything else than spam only ER, ER spam really hurts that HoT healing now because of this CD change what is not divided by HoT pulse time. Spamming ER makes HoT tick every 5sec.

Abyss time I was doing 10-13k usually to tank, depending was I healing cappy or guardian. And they usually had around 10% incoming healing slotted and that required some work. Now I'm doing 23k HPS without even trying, just chilling. My point is that bearning healing has come now so easy that anyone watching that video I posted can go and aria beorning WP lvl to 120, then copy that rotation and do ~20k HPS single target. (Assuming that person have resources to fast lvl up LI's what is another story)

I agreed already, that the Hot need a bit of adjustment (but again: not a nerf)
I do not use the set anymore because I'm hoping it will be capped at lvl 119 before or with the raid. We did yesterday a TG T2 run with a tank champ, i was really happy to have the HoT running on him, but I have to admit, that the champ's gear was not 100% tanky. I think the Beo Healer offers right now more options for groups like Burg or Champ (the latter even as a tank) in instances like TG in T3 or Thrumfall in T3 with melee DD classes. And as you said: the HoT IS the main healing skill for the Tank and one will try to keep it up and running. If the HoT get the nerf you are asking for and the set-bonus go away in one or other way, the Beo will be then what? Tank or DD but not a healer anymore. But one thing is for sure: if the set remains as it is now, when the new raid hits the live server, i will use it as extremely as i can.

There is lot of minis who cannot currently do even 10k HPS single target. When we was grinding Storvagun, there was on one run mini healing cappy who did only under 6k, in fact cappy outhealed that mini with self heals.

Tell me what ... i outhealed a bad mini at Storvagun with my tank warden. I heal with my supporter LM between 7K and 10K single target (add to LM: Beacon of Hop can crit with 60K, but not the HoT from it. Waterlore HoT can crit 20K and if all 3 of it is running on the tank ...well you may have your 60K hot pulses from other class)

And beorning have sacrifice. If you have traited sacrifice from blue and red, it's safe skill to use even on Fror start. Mini simply does not have anything as powerfull as sacrifice. 40% absorbed damage is huge. Chord can crit alot yes, but it has 10sec cd. Bear can do 2xER in that time what means that there is also 2 OP HoT pulses. Or if you wait little, 2ER and 3 pulses. And ER splash crit even more than chord.

For Fror it is enough to trait sacrifice from red. I use sacrifice most of the time at the beginning of pulls, where the LM do not have the debuffs running on the mob. And the blue sacrifice is not something i would trait, because a really good RK can do 150K DPS on trash groups in TG on T2 and the last thing i want to do is transfer 20% treat from tank away.

Again, morale pool haven't doubled, still beorning total HPS has more than doubled. Thats why it matters what healing was at 115. We do not need this strong heals. Same time mini healing haven't scaled at all or if it has, only little.

I'm not asking to nerf it meaningless! I am asking to reverse healing back to what it was before this madness started! Because that was more than enough heals. I don't wanna post video anymore what I have already posted. That TG T3 last boss video is BEFORE all this changes started and iirc I did to tank around 20k HPS on that run. How can't you accept that beorning heals scaled quite much up with lvl increase?

How putting us back to 20k HPS ST range would be nerfing us to dead? And that was without maul what would push it up quite much.

Again, Beorning HEALING was quite spot on before changes started. It was more about issue with other things on yellow line that required fixing, like rezz what is now fixed.

You know that T3 has been changed too? If you are asking for "reverse healing back to what it was before" then it is your duty to ask - not less vocal! - to revert the changes from T3 too.
Your right, the moral pool haven't doubled, but the damage with the new T3 IS scaled up.

Then you are ignorant.

No, I just made a little fun.

And mini was quite spot on at lvl115. Some say that it still is. It's Beorning what is just way too OP and was kinda OP already when this all started.

I said it elsewhere, the mini still can heal but it is not on spot AND it needs fixes. Or do you mean that an 800 HoT is on spot? And it needs an upgrade for some of it's healing skills magnitude.
It is questionable that SSG is able to fix the mini, they could't do the fix in 8 patches, i do not expect, that they will do it anymore.

[Happychappy]

Well theres a thread on bullroarer asking for a Mini fix/buff, so i guess the mini is not spot on. A few dishearten mini players looking for a Beorning nerf it seems as well lol. A lot of bull#### facts as well!

I can jump on my Runekeeper and dps like a mofo or heal respectably well with bubbles, minus incoming damage and being able to debuff a mobs mitigations and a big heal at will every 15 seconds for myself. Hmmmm quite good honestly. I feel very powerful and heroic on the RK :P
My minstrel is just shelved now, it feels mediocre in everything it does. Dps is very poor compared to a RK and Healing needs some fixes/buffs. But they do have some ok group buffs. I feel lost on my Mini knowing that a RK can do nearly everything better lol.

A beorning may need a few small adjustments, but lets not try to over exaggerate and get the class nerfed to the point of useless again. It has only just become good to play and people want it broken again?. Beornings have a lot of catching up to do with all the other OP classes that got groups and gear so easily lol.

I say buff the mini first and then see where Beornings stand, rather than nerf the Beorning and then buff the mini and Beo becomes obsolete again. The developers have a tendency to over nerf, hence the Minstrel outcry.

I say nerf Revealing mark lol. As stated it provides too much healing for the dps. Let the healers heal them :P

[Sarthien90]

I want to try to sum up a few things of what was posted here concerning YELLOW line, hoping it will push us towards leaving arguing be. We should not spam this thread – and by doing so make it harder for Vastin to review important things. The more he has to read, the more unlikely it gets that changes will be made.

People have made good suggestions and bad (depends on the perspective) and what I think would be best is to accept that there are different opinions. It won’t help to try to convince someone no matter the cost. Most points have their warranty even though I don’t agree with all of them.
I hope I can be objective enough, if not: don’t be too harsh with me!

The following will be suggestions of which I hope people can live with them. A compromise between contrary positions. And it will be a wall of text, sorry!

Encouraging Roar
Problems mentioned: Tier 3 HoT / Abyss set bonus / cooldown increased to 4,5 seconds. And sometimes all of it combined.
Some say that the HoT on tier 3 is too strong, some say it is okay. Some say that the Abyss set has to be removed completely, some say it should stay. Some say the cooldown should be what it was before the class update (3 seconds) and in exchange tier 3 of ER should stay as it is.
Compromise: SLIGHT nerf to the tier 3 HoT (around 10-15%), leave the cooldown as it is now and don’t bother about the Abyss set for there will be a fix (it was already on Bullroarer in beta 4).

Buffs/Debuffs
Problems mentioned: Not working properly / too strong considering high healing numbers.
Vicious Claws is only really useful when Mark of Grimbeorn is not on your tank – but in many cases it is. And you have to go in melee range and run the risk of being stunned, same problem with Armour Crush and Slam. Bees in yellow tree only provide support for physical classes.
Piercing Roar and Slam (when Weakening Blow is traited from blue) don’t cause the enemy to deal x% less damage. It only causes the mastery of this enemy to be lowered by that value and therefore the damage reduction in real terms is just a few percentage (not more than 5% as some people figured out?!).
Not in every situation and in every fight you can allow yourself the luxury of having your Mark of Grimbeorn on a damage dealer or being in melee range. You have to be able to heal fights where your tank takes high damage and you are not able to reduce incoming damage in a way a Minstrel or a Runekeeper can do. You only have to do some math to know that.
Compromise: Think about different situations. Do some math.
If needed, decrease the value of all buffs/debuffs by 5% to compensate high numbers of heals. (Although my personal opinion is that it is not necessary because of the mentioned dependences.)

HPS
Problems mentioned: Too high / good as it is.
Some say HPS is too high compared to Minstrels/Runekeepers. Some say it is fine because we don’t have damage reduction and bubbles like those other two classes (those skills are not considered when talking about HPS only).
Compromise: SLIGHT nerf to base healing (10%). And give Minstrels those 10% at the same time, because balancing always has to bear relation to other classes.

Group healing
Problems mentioned: Without Abyss set the group healing is poor / cooldown of Rejuvenating Bellow / numbers too high
Compromise: SLIGHT nerf to base healing (10% in general or 15% if only for RB) and reverse increased cooldown back to 6 seconds. Set bonus was already discussed for Encouraging Roar. Other method would be to put a group HoT in the skill tree instead of reversing the cooldown of RB.

Miscellaneous
Problems mentioned: Critical magnitude too high / burst healing
Compromise: Well, I don’t think that something can/will be done here. The problem with critical rating is an overall problem and with the few skills the yellow Beorning has, it will stay mostly burst healing. Could be compensated with the mentioned group HoT combined with the overall nerf of around 10%.

I hope the most of you guys could live with such compromises. And I hope that there will be a statement of Vastin IF he is planning to do something at all concerning yellow bear. Otherwise it’s useless to discuss and argue anyway.

[JiiPee]

I was speaking about the scaling/tier-up mechanic of skills in generally, and that is not something unique as a mechanic. This mechanic is just now have been added to ER, and that is the only new thing about it. This is why i said the 4th ER does nothing special (because the mechanic behind is not new in the game, it is just new for ER)

And I was speaking about heal tier scaling only and for that over 3 times scaling is something new.


I agreed already, that the Hot need a bit of adjustment (but again: not a nerf)
I do not use the set anymore because I'm hoping it will be capped at lvl 119 before or with the raid. We did yesterday a TG T2 run with a tank champ, i was really happy to have the HoT running on him, but I have to admit, that the champ's gear was not 100% tanky. I think the Beo Healer offers right now more options for groups like Burg or Champ (the latter even as a tank) in instances like TG in T3 or Thrumfall in T3 with melee DD classes.

And as you said: the HoT IS the main healing skill for the Tank and one will try to keep it up and running. If the HoT get the nerf you are asking for and the set-bonus go away in one or other way, the Beo will be then what? Tank or DD but not a healer anymore. But one thing is for sure: if the set remains as it is now, when the new raid hits the live server, i will use it as extremely as i can.

Well HoT nerf won't really affect that much of your HPS, it would jsut make you work more and not chill around. When I was doing testings, if you was spamming ER every time when it was off cd, your HoT total heal dropped to around 5,5k and ER initial was doing all the heavy lifting, after all doing ER spamming makes HoT just another splash what ticks only when you drop off bear form to build wrath. Then if you do another test and don't spam ER when it's off cd and let it tick 3 or 4 times, things goes upside down. Suddenly HoT is doing around 10k and initial splash is doing like 3-4k.
So if I spamheal tank and do around 27k HPS to it, without HoT I would still doing around 20k. I don't think that is bad at all, so even if HoT was nerfed to half what it is now and in my opinion it should be nerfed more, we would still do decent healing. We just would need to work more.
That rotation video I posted you can easily alter to push rotation and pop maul between RB cd wait and when you go build wrath, just wrath building roar into mix and you have rotation what does 100k HPS total and over 30k ST and you still never run out of wrath. But that psuh rotation is not required, jsut healed TG T3 yesterday with mainly using that relax rotation. We even had little accident at Fror and tank forgot to put tactical mitigation gear on, was taking over 19k TPS, but was also getting over 27k HPS.

EDIT: Forgot to say about HoT, because refreshing mechanic of HoT, it's just stupid that it is applied by low cd skill, as I described up, it lose it's meaning when it's applied by such a skill. So in my opinion, whole HoT should be added to RB, that way it would work much better.

Tell me what ... i outhealed a bad mini at Storvagun with my tank warden. I heal with my supporter LM between 7K and 10K single target (add to LM: Beacon of Hop can crit with 60K, but not the HoT from it. Waterlore HoT can crit 20K and if all 3 of it is running on the tank ...well you may have your 60K hot pulses from other class)

Water lore is not tiered heal, it's stacked heal like RK mending.

For Fror it is enough to trait sacrifice from red. I use sacrifice most of the time at the beginning of pulls, where the LM do not have the debuffs running on the mob. And the blue sacrifice is not something i would trait, because a really good RK can do 150K DPS on trash groups in TG on T2 and the last thing i want to do is transfer 20% treat from tank away.

I don't think it works how you may think it works, you thinking that it leaching aggro all a time when sacrifice is up? I think it's just transfers that 20% when you pop that that skill, so when tank runs in and you pop sacrifice to him/her, there is no aggro yet getting build so nothing gets transferred.
But it's personal preference if you wanna trait it fully or not, still great skill.

You know that T3 has been changed too? If you are asking for "reverse healing back to what it was before" then it is your duty to ask - not less vocal! - to revert the changes from T3 too.
Your right, the moral pool haven't doubled, but the damage with the new T3 IS scaled up.

Actually it's T3 mobs buff what has changed, not actual damage. That over 56k armour penetration buff they now have is actually flat mitigation penetration to both mitigations. And I'm not really sure if that is going to stay. If you wanna negate that buff, you need to slot 7 phys mit and 7 tact mit essences. We run out of slots for that.
So that buff just hurts our mitigation much more now and thats why stuff seems to hit much harder now.

I said it elsewhere, the mini still can heal but it is not on spot AND it needs fixes. Or do you mean that an 800 HoT is on spot? And it needs an upgrade for some of it's healing skills magnitude.
It is questionable that SSG is able to fix the mini, they could't do the fix in 8 patches, i do not expect, that they will do it anymore.

No I am not saying that mini healing is spot on, some other people are saying so. But mini was quite spot on at 115 if we ignore the bugs like chord and raise the spirit non-excisting hot what tooltips claims mini should have and traits.

[dsltn07]

Everything you’ve said just makes you sound like a very disgruntled minstrel main. You keep talking in circles with people about the ER HoT, even after they’ve agreed it could use some tweaking/reduction.
The best feedback you’ve given is suggesting adding a HoT to bellow, but even that is flawed. With the long cooldowns on our skills we’d be an even more bursty healer (not good) if we removed the ER single target HoT altogether. Further, no one can read the numbers due to the video quality of your posted videos. It doesn’t help anyone by referring to them as proof for changes.

[JiiPee]

Everything you’ve said just makes you sound like a very disgruntled minstrel main. You keep talking in circles with people about the ER HoT, even after they’ve agreed it could use some tweaking/reduction.
The best feedback you’ve given is suggesting adding a HoT to bellow, but even that is flawed. With the long cooldowns on our skills we’d be an even more bursty healer (not good) if we removed the ER single target HoT altogether. Further, no one can read the numbers due to the video quality of your posted videos. It doesn’t help anyone by referring to them as proof for changes.

I just checked and from video, numbers can be seen very clearly. I don't know what resolution you are watching, but 1440p and 1080p is fine, Video is recorded with 1440p resolution and there is nothing I can do when that resolution is scaled down to 720p or lower that texts gets messy. It's youtube what does that processing, not me. So if you have problems to see numbers, then I suggest that you select manually 1440p or 1080p what should fix your problem. Only thing what in about unreadable on video is red text and red text are for damage so they do not matter. You are only one who has moan about video quality so I think it's your own system what is causing issues, maybe your trying to watch it with phone or something.

And you are wrong, I'm not unhappy mini healer. I have healed with beorning as my main healer almost whole 115, I was using mini as my main healer at 105. Mini became much more interesting to heal after it got nerfed on 115, before that it was very boring brainless bolster spam, quite like beorning is now boring ER spam.

Adding HoT to RB would make it better than it is now, it would tick 3 times between RB uses, if you use RB every time it's off cd. I already explained what happens when it's tied to ER so I don't explain it again. It won't make it any more burst at all, it would stabilize healing because you would have HoT ticking every 3sec no matter are you doing ER every time it's off cd or not.

[Happychappy]

I just checked and from video, numbers can be seen very clearly. I don't know what resolution you are watching, but 1440p and 1080p is fine, Video is recorded with 1440p resolution and there is nothing I can do when that resolution is scaled down to 720p or lower that texts gets messy. It's youtube what does that processing, not me. So if you have problems to see numbers, then I suggest that you select manually 1440p or 1080p what should fix your problem. Only thing what in about unreadable on video is red text and red text are for damage so they do not matter. You are only one who has moan about video quality so I think it's your own system what is causing issues, maybe your trying to watch it with phone or something.

And you are wrong, I'm not unhappy mini healer. I have healed with beorning as my main healer almost whole 115, I was using mini as my main healer at 105. Mini became much more interesting to heal after it got nerfed on 115, before that it was very boring brainless bolster spam, quite like beorning is now boring ER spam.

Adding HoT to RB would make it better than it is now, it would tick 3 times between RB uses, if you use RB every time it's off cd. I already explained what happens when it's tied to ER so I don't explain it again. It won't make it any more burst at all, it would stabilize healing because you would have HoT ticking every 3sec no matter are you doing ER every time it's off cd or not.

Mini healing is boring as hell now. I understand the old Bolster spam needed to change, but what we have now is not good.

And do not compare Beorning to old bolster spam Minstrel. Nothing alike. You are talking about a set bonus that only affects a small level range lol.

The Beorning is in a decent place now. Healing may need a small adjustment and the raid set may need to be capped or removed altogether now.

But red line could do with some further work also. Execute is rubbish.

[Starina]

<snip>
And you are wrong, I'm not unhappy mini healer. I have healed with beorning as my main healer almost whole 115, I was using mini as my main healer at 105. Mini became much more interesting to heal after it got nerfed on 115, before that it was very boring brainless bolster spam, quite like beorning is now boring ER spam.<snip>

I think this is the issue, that some want healing to be challenging. Many though already feel the pressure of running a class that everyone notices immediately when something goes wrong, and they don't want this pressure to grow. Before I came to Lotro I always ran healers in every game, and I tend to run a lot in PUGs as I never join kinships (just not my cup of tea). After a few years of running healers, I quite frankly ended having enough and in my 8 years and some in Lotro, I for most parts have refused to run any healing class due to past experiences. Now Lotro's community tends to on average be much kinder than other games I played, where no matter what idiotic mistakes others made, they always blamed the healer. Still, healing remains for many gamers a role they do not associate with the greatest fun to be had, reason why we got lots of dps in all games, while often tanks and healers are in much shorter supply. The most logical way to counter this lack of supply, is to make healers easy enough to play so people don't end scared leveling one. From what I was told, mini had reached that point, and yes, for some passionate healers it sure was boring, but from what I believe to have observed, it increased the numbers of players who were willing to take on healing role.

And I have mentioned this before and shall mention it again - most players are not hard core dedicated raiders, but come to Lotro to unwind and relax. From what I can tell, Lotro has been working towards making grouping an enjoyable experience also for the not hard core raiders, and one meets all sort of folks in groups. Look how minis now complain, because they have to work harder. I spoke with one passionate mini player, who right now doesn't want to heal as he finds it too challenging. This is an adult money earning man, who just wants to have fun during his gaming time, he isn't after having to prove to himself or anyone else how grand he is as a gamer.

And these players are needed too to allow groups to run fellowship content, because the hardcore raiders are far fewer, and they usually do not even bother with PUGs, but tend to stick to others who are hardcore.

As for the Beorning, this is a class that costs money, and it was completely neglected and badly designed for ages, and while it should not be sleepwalkingly op, it should have perks that make it interesting enough for people to want to spend money on them. It now being pushed towards healing above all else, is already a hindrance again, as most people want dps for fun, yet there seem to be issues to redesign the bear to becoming a truly valid dpser for groups. It seems therefore a logical choice to at least make it a good healer that people feel tempted to buy and level, even if healing usually isn't their first passion.

It sure is not easy to make everyone happy, I certainly feel for devs, but I often think that those who come to the forums with loads of videos and tests and numbers, are not representing the average player, yet the average player is vital to pay the bills, and healing classes are vital to run group content, so it makes no sense to make healers challenging above and beyond, just to please the few who want it hardcore.

[Happychappy]

Having healing challenging is ok but we need to feel powerful and not mediocre when geared up also. A Guardian for example when fully geared can do some amazing things and survive when the #### hits the fan, they feel good about this but are not considered to OP. A healer needs to have this also and not just assisting an organised group with some extra healing. They need moments of glory also, where they save the day.

Buff/rework the minstrel, make RK healing skills more fluid which will increase their healing some, nerf Revealing mark, buff Captain healing where needed then look at the Beorning and adjust to equality. But do not bring the Beorning back to the brink of uselessness.