Cord Wants Burg Feedback

[Oddessia]

Okay so you want burg feedback, that we've been giving you for weeks. Fine. How in the world did you read through the countless pages of feedback and glean ONLY that the players want "redline dps increase"? What!? Most of the feedback for red is bug fixes. Ill say this loudly since the team seems to have forgotten...There are other trait trees that are not red!!

Imo red dps is fine, BLUE AND YELLOW need an increase, red is fine. Do I expect blue/yellow to be red-level dps? Of course not - and most of the feedback listed here is for BLUE/YELLOW TREE.

1. DPS increase needed (In blue and yellow) to compensate for the RW nerf, not to bring it up equal to redline.

2. **Mischievous Glee applied a heal to **** restoring 2,468 points to Morale. (this is the first hit of the heal and hits only 1 time)
**Mischievous Glee applied a heal to **** restoring 214 points to Morale. (these are the secondary heal puffs after main one)
**Mischievous Delight applied a critical heal to **** restoring 153 points to Power.

This ^ is at level 115 but seriously? How is this even remotely close to being competitive? Its not on the same "cloud", its not even in the same universe. This is with the +20% trick removal healing trait slotted. I shouldnt need to explain why this is utterly ridiculous. Yellow line is my focus - it needs the most work. Yellow line is the group line - what is the point if our group skills are this bad?

3. Trick Counter Defence has stats that are so low no one uses them.

4. Clever Retort has 4 possible effects ALL of which are currently so low as to be entirely useless. Test from today yellow line burg, level 115 (abyss T2 geared) against landscape mobs level 116: (please note this is WITH the +20% healing and +20% trick removal damage boost)
* #### scored a hit with Wound on the Scrublands Wolf for 3,616 damage to Morale. (This is the "spider DoT" effect of the skill and its subsequent SINGLE bleed tick hit)
#### scored a hit with Wound on the Scrublands Wolf for 2,640 damage to Morale

*Minor Inspiration applied a heal to ##### restoring 4,612 points to Morale.* (This is the "eagle heal" effect) This isnt as awful as Mischievous Delight however at current level that is less than 1 hit from a landscape mob. And when players now have 90k+ morale...its low. Yes we can shorten the CD with subtle stab and repeat this skill however it removes the trick - and spamming trick removals to heal in a raid makes you the most useless member. Now if the group heal amount were actually worth the removal - then yes, it could be a good idea. Basically the trade off isnt worth the subsequent effect. If the enemy doesnt have a trick on it you arent doing anything for the raid - its needs a change or boost.

*#### scored a hit with Damage Burst on the Scrublands Lynx for 8,227 damage to Morale.* (This is the "ent red" effect). This isnt bad at all actually, Im fine with the damage on this. Problem I find is that to get that effect you need to use Trick: Counter Defence. Which is currently the most useless trick - most people dont even trait for it. I dont know how to post pics but the stats on it are incredibly low, and without using this trick first as a lead-in to Clever Retort, we cant get this red dps effect. As well since yellow burg is for the group - the payoff for this skill makes it not worth using. Again you have to remove a trick, which hinders the group and the dps of this skill while okay, is nowhere near high enough to be worth a trick removal.

*Restored Power applied a heal to ##### restoring 2,459 points to Power.* (This is the "horse power restore" effect) - No issue here, its fine.

I know you asked for short but its hard to do short on a class that requires so much. Im going to link some great feedback from other threads:

Fingerz's feedback on this page: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...Feedback/page2 He also states the most obvious, "Devs should focus on the what the burg was always intended and excels at before trait tree, supporting cc and debuffer, make the yellow line better" and is 100% accurate.

Snob's feedback on this page: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...Feedback/page6

Drizzle's feedback on this page: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...Feedback/page5

Nearly all of it is asking for blue/yellow buffs and bug fixes for red...NOT RED DPS INCREASE.


-Ods

*Edited for yelling cause I was mad. LOL Still am! But you know...flies and honey and all that*

[Drizzels]

yeah i posted something here aswell:

https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...79#post7905479

The easiest change would be to give us THE PROMISSED SKILL AND BLEED INCREASE WE NEVER GOT!

blue and yellow class changes are something super different and are well explained in the burgler class thread.

WTB A DEV THAT READS FEEDBACK
GO VASTIN

[Fingerz]

I've sent over a PM to cord with my feedback but you've done a very nice job pulling together some of the more valuable feedbacks with your OP, good stuff!

[Areyekuwe]

Just to add that, Red Line is not fine in its melee range DPS when it comes to end game.

All: Blue / Red / Yellow should get DPS & DOT increase. It would really not be an increase but rather scale up to become somewhat similar to other classes.

[Olebenny]

I dont play a burg so take this for what its worth

Doing stuff like Glimmer T3 and TG T3 with red burgs is really disheartening, they just do so little DPS even with Reveal Weakness, they need a *hefty* boost to dps and hopefully before the raid gets here

Thats all

[Cordovan]

Thanks. Just to be clear, you are quite incorrect in your first statement. Under no circumstances did I ever claim that after reading the extensive feedback so far we took away that players were asking for a red line damage increase. Not even sure where that idea came from. The response, to be clear, is that we are looking for a couple of targeted ways to respond to your feedback, and while I and others have read people's extensive thoughts on the subject, we are looking to get a streamlined list of a couple of specific things to push for.

[luckygirl1]

Thanks. Just to be clear, you are quite incorrect in your first statement. Under no circumstances did I ever claim that after reading the extensive feedback so far we took away that players were asking for a red line damage increase. Not even sure where that idea came from. The response, to be clear, is that we are looking for a couple of targeted ways to respond to your feedback, and while I and others have read people's extensive thoughts on the subject, we are looking to get a streamlined list of a couple of specific things to push for.

In short to be clear. The burglar "Update" was no update at all. It was a nerf followed by .000003% (or something along those lines) change to DoT damage and no increase to dps at all.

-Tricks needed a serious revamp. (see burglar feedback thread on br)

-Blue line needed a complete overhaul. (see burglar feedback thread br)

Neither of these were looked at by the developer working on the classs

-And burglar red line damage was not touched at all as the initial burg update notes mentioned.

Appreciate you looking into this.

[Oddessia]

Thanks. Just to be clear, you are quite incorrect in your first statement. Under no circumstances did I ever claim that after reading the extensive feedback so far we took away that players were asking for a red line damage increase. Not even sure where that idea came from. The response, to be clear, is that we are looking for a couple of targeted ways to respond to your feedback, and while I and others have read people's extensive thoughts on the subject, we are looking to get a streamlined list of a couple of specific things to push for.

Thanks for the clarification! I didn't mean it to sound like I was accusing you of saying that, because you didn't. It just sounded to me like when you asked the team about burgs, their response was, "But redline dps is fine"....which is only 1/3rd of the class and the part needing the least amount of work ATM. Just came across (to me) as odd that despite of all the feedback we provided about the other 2 trees, the consistent responses we've received have been only in regards to redline LOL. I'm relieved that you called me on it actually, the fact that there was more to the burg convo than redline makes me feel much better. Phew.

Thanks for your response! I'll admit to being kinda angry when I wrote it, and worried that blue/yellow will end up being ignored O.O Im sorry if it sounded like I was accusing or blaming you - that was definitely not my intention. I appreciate your communication, and am grateful it is as frequent and active as it is. Don't stop!

-Ods

[Hildilas]

2. **Mischievous Glee applied a heal to **** restoring 2,468 points to Morale. (this is the first hit of the heal and hits only 1 time)
**Mischievous Glee applied a heal to **** restoring 214 points to Morale. (these are the secondary heal puffs after main one)
**Mischievous Delight applied a critical heal to **** restoring 153 points to Power.

This ^ is at level 115 but seriously? How is this even remotely close to being competitive? Its not on the same "cloud", its not even in the same universe. This is with the +20% trick removal healing trait slotted. I shouldnt need to explain why this is utterly ridiculous. Yellow line is my focus - it needs the most work. Yellow line is the group line - what is the point if our group skills are this bad?

I did this on cd several times and got a hps of 2,5k. Don't get me wrong this NEEDS a buff BUT because of the ****** up crit system in this game it should not be too high you know? let's say they buff it to 7k/2k HOT or sth -> higher than inspire fellows of the mini. Could already be enough to heal everything but the tank.

As others said: Tricks needs buff. IMO they should always have 6 targets or sth + Everything tricks do should be comparable to the LMs debuffs/buffs. The difficulty is: LM + Burg buffs combined would be too strong maybe. Maybe add sth like: Mobs can only get debuffed to -40-50% outgoing damage. I know that we cannot debuff a mob to 0 outgoing damage but all raid debuffs combined could be too strong anway. The Burg could use other tricks with a LM in group . In a 6 man we could either take a burg or a LM.

[Areyekuwe]

I dont play a burg so take this for what its worth

Doing stuff like Glimmer T3 and TG T3 with red burgs is really disheartening, they just do so little DPS even with Reveal Weakness, they need a *hefty* boost to dps and hopefully before the raid gets here

Thats all

And that is exactly how playing a Burg around other classes feels like. Forget about the fact that there are AoE attack classes(and range ones at that). Why is it us melee range / single target DPS is so low?

We have to move to the target and set up. We should be rewarded with upward of 10% increase of what we do now.

[Areyekuwe]

Thanks. Just to be clear, you are quite incorrect in your first statement. Under no circumstances did I ever claim that after reading the extensive feedback so far we took away that players were asking for a red line damage increase. Not even sure where that idea came from. The response, to be clear, is that we are looking for a couple of targeted ways to respond to your feedback, and while I and others have read people's extensive thoughts on the subject, we are looking to get a streamlined list of a couple of specific things to push for.

Well, not to pick a fight with you, because you are in my eyes a very important and thus respected, should be respected member of our larger LOTRO community. But this idea comes from us watching your video.

The simple idea is that all 3 trait lines have damage dealing skills. Red line is special because it has more of these burst skills, flashing blades and CDG.

The idea that one gets though after playing Burglar at the end game that all of the damage output is low, all 3 lines can get increase, please. They would not become same, obviously. But DPS is not only red line ability, although at different rate / style.

-So, people are telling you that red line is in trouble then where does it leave blue and yellow!

[Elwenwing]

Thanks. Just to be clear, you are quite incorrect in your first statement. Under no circumstances did I ever claim that after reading the extensive feedback so far we took away that players were asking for a red line damage increase. Not even sure where that idea came from. The response, to be clear, is that we are looking for a couple of targeted ways to respond to your feedback, and while I and others have read people's extensive thoughts on the subject, we are looking to get a streamlined list of a couple of specific things to push for.

Simply the statement that the system developers feel that a red burg dps is in a pretty good spot at the moment is cause of concern!

No one ever asks a redline burglar to fill a dps spot in challenging content, not unless all other dps classes have gone to sleep already! A red burglar simply cannot fulfill the dps role as effectively as a true dps class, most of that is due to the fact that instances do not really favour a single target melee dps class anywhere! Ideal circumstances shown by parcing tools rarely happen in the game these days for the burglar class (And other melee classes).

I just play redline and yellowline myself.

With regard to the redline, I think system devs should aim for a higher dps than we have now around 80% of a hunter, but be aware we can not apply our dps as easily and effectively, they need to focus on sustained dps, like the crit chain skills and subtle stab, and to be careful to not make the burst dps too high (coup de grace)!

With regard to the yellow line I think the bullroarer burglar feedback thread has some great ideas. A yellow line burglar does quite a bit less dps than a red one. But it's the line that is most true to the burglar class! So we need better debuffs there (look at what other support classes can do for comparison), better healing skills that are worth using, and on top of that a smoother rotation.

There is no easy list of fixes you can propose to the system developers, but if there's one question I would like you to ask them it is: "Why do you think there are so few main burglars left in the game right now?"

[Drizzels]

Simply the statement that the system developers feel that a red burg dps is in a pretty good spot at the moment is cause of concern!

No one ever asks a redline burglar to fill a dps spot in challenging content, not unless all other dps classes have gone to sleep already! A red burglar simply cannot fulfill the dps role as effectively as a true dps class, most of that is due to the fact that instances do not really favour a single target melee dps class anywhere! Ideal circumstances shown by parcing tools rarely happen in the game these days for the burglar class (And other melee classes).

I just play redline and yellowline myself.

With regard to the redline, I think system devs should aim for a higher dps than we have now around 80% of a hunter, but be aware we can not apply our dps as easily and effectively, they need to focus on sustained dps, like the crit chain skills and subtle stab, and to be careful to not make the burst dps too high (coup de grace)!

With regard to the yellow line I think the bullroarer burglar feedback thread has some great ideas. A yellow line burglar does quite a bit less dps than a red one. But it's the line that is most true to the burglar class! So we need better debuffs there (look at what other support classes can do for comparison), better healing skills that are worth using, and on top of that a smoother rotation.

There is no easy list of fixes you can propose to the system developers, but if there's one question I would like you to ask them it is: "Why do you think there are so few main burglars left in the game right now?"

´
A red burg cannont do a dps role in hard raids?

in the past it used to be,specially in speedruns.
When reveal weakness was stacking you could bring 1 yellow burg+1-2 red burgs for that staking mark and ST dps that was in range of 80-90% of hunter/rk!

Just look at throne and abyss where red burg was totally fine @Cordovan
We got 2 big nervs since then.
The first with u21.2 where burg lost 15% skill dmg WITH NO EXPLANATION
see here: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...eedback-thread

and the the so called "class changes" that nerved reveal weakness and gave burg as a compensation:NOTHING

[Elwenwing]

´
A red burg cannont do a dps role in hard raids?

in the past it used to be,specially in speedruns.
When reveal weakness was stacking you could bring 1 yellow burg+1-2 red burgs for that staking mark and ST dps that was in range of 80-90% of hunter/rk!

Just look at throne and abyss where red burg was totally fine @Cordovan
We got 2 big nervs since then.
The first with u21.2 where burg lost 15% skill dmg WITH NO EXPLANATION
see here: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...eedback-thread

and the the so called "class changes" that nerved reveal weakness and gave burg as a compensation:NOTHING

A red burg could do really well in the past! But not as things are now I think!

I think we should be able to stack reveal weakness two times, as we were told we in the first dev notes of the last changes! But somehow that got changed to no stacking at all!

And yes, I still want to know why we got stealth nerfed sometime around may last year as well! I sometimes wonder if that was not the result of the buffs our class got in 2016 got wiped somehow!

[Areyekuwe]

I also think that DPS needs to just go up.

And it is not directly about stacking or not stacking RW.

It is about the following: Range DPS classes output much higher DPS - #1. (Then some have AoE) Then, they do not need to move to target, or can even kite to not take damage. We lose a lot of rounds going to the enemy to attack them, and we can not really tank or keep the agro. -#2.

So, all of our melee, single target DPS, on all trait lines needs to go up. -This is pretty clear.

All of our Debuffs must be really, truly "ranged" with min range of 20 M.

Double nerf of reveal weakness, 1st in strength then 2nd in stackability is really not fair to the class that does not really get much play for anything else.

[Snobs]

@Cordovan

Red Line Burglar is NOT "in a good spot right now", at least DPS-wise. Red Line Burglars are at MAXIMUM 55k DPS (which is already a bit exaggerated) while Hunters can easily do 80k DPS and in any raid situation 110k and more.
This used to be justified when Burglars were able to stack Reveal Weakness; however, this isn't possible anymore so burglars should sit at around 80% - 85% of Hunter DPS, considering they are melee, too. Since Burglars don't have any noteworthy AOE damage, at least Single Target Damage needs to be good enough.

You mentioned in your Stream that you were looking for a few brief feedback posts for Burglar, so here are mine (that I actually already wrote in the Bullroarer Burglar Feedback thread):

1. Surprise Strike needs to be significantly buffed or it needs an additional effect, like +incoming melee damage on the target for 10 seconds or whatever, ANYTHING really. Its animation is too long and its damage is too low compared to Critical Chain Skills.

2. Cunning Attack DoT stackability is a MAJOR PROBLEM. It needs to be redesigned/reworked. Right now, you are being punished for critting with Cunning Attack a second time (because you can't stack multiple Crit and Devastate Versions of Cunning attack and in that case it's better to not crit with Cunning Attack because you can actually stack non-crit versions of the DoT) Nobody at any point in this game should be punished for critting. Also, stacking multiple Improved Versions of Cunning Attack (via Stealth or Feint Attack) is not possible which is OK, but it forces you to get rid of Feint Attack +10% Damage Buff every 5 seconds to use a non-improved version of Cunning Attack.

3. Gambler's Advantage DoT is way to low. You can stack it 4 Times but then it still is only about 5000 damage per tick which is absurdly low for Level 120.

Those are universal changes that need to happen FOR EVERY BURGLAR, REGARDLESS OF SKILL TREE LINE.

4. Blue Line doesn't really fit anything, it's not dps, it's not support, obviously not heal, so what is the purpose of this skill tree? Regardless of it being a fun skill tree, which it maybe shall be (I don't know), damage needs to be significantly buffed on EVERY SKILL.

5. Yellow Line: Where do I even start?
- All Tricks should permanently be AOE and have a minimum of 3 targets (at least)
- because of this, Trickster would need to be redesigned somehow
- Trick Removal Skills (Mischievous Glee/Clever Retort) need to be buffed significantly to make them useful again and they shouldn't remove the trick
- Trick Counter-defence needs to be changed, right now, nobody is using it
- Stacking different tricks should be a thing in my opinion (without Trickster of course)

6. The following change, which was announced in U23.1.7 and in Beta Build#1 Release Notes NEVER HAPPENED, it wasn't on the test server when it was first announced and nor it is on the live servers right now.
Skill damage and DoT damage increased. With reveal weakness decreasing in potency, Burglar damage needed to increase to compensate.

I really hope that any of this feedback will be taken into consideration.

[YvainBlakhart]

I think you should rollback the entire "Burglar Update" and start again. Nerfing Reveal Weakness is shortsighted and unnecessary. Stacking RW has been around for ELEVEN YEARS, it didn't cause issues in Helegrod, Rift, Watcher, DN, DG, OD, Orthanc, Throne, or the Abyss. Why? because adding more Burgs means you are losing actual DPS classes. Nerfing it just makes burgs less desirable in groups.

[Teyaha]

Thanks. Just to be clear, you are quite incorrect in your first statement. Under no circumstances did I ever claim that after reading the extensive feedback so far we took away that players were asking for a red line damage increase. Not even sure where that idea came from. The response, to be clear, is that we are looking for a couple of targeted ways to respond to your feedback, and while I and others have read people's extensive thoughts on the subject, we are looking to get a streamlined list of a couple of specific things to push for.

then let's be real here and factor in history, precedence and class balance in this genre. Burglars should be the highest single target sustained dps in the game because they have no aoe, no healing and no tank specs and must be in melee range without heavy armor.

yes, higher than both rk's and hunters who have at least a little aoe.

[Areyekuwe]

then let's be real here and factor in history, precedence and class balance in this genre. Burglars should be the highest single target sustained dps in the game because they have no aoe, no healing and no tank specs and must be in melee range without heavy armor.

yes, higher than both rk's and hunters who have at least a little aoe.

I mean, i am affraid to say the same thing as above, but this is the truth. This is it. Why not?

[Fingerz]

then let's be real here and factor in history, precedence and class balance in this genre. Burglars should be the highest single target sustained dps in the game because they have no aoe, no healing and no tank specs and must be in melee range without heavy armor.

yes, higher than both rk's and hunters who have at least a little aoe.

Burglars are not a top end dps class. Should a LM also have single highest dps in red line as a light armour?

No it shouldn't and likewise a Burg shouldnt

They should both be able to (As burg once did) bring abilities that greatly enhance the dps of others and lower Inc damage received with reasonable individual dps output. The LM should have a slight upper hand in debuffing with the Burg a slight upper hand in their DPS output.

Counter defence - fix me

Only 1 trick per target - fix me

Clever retort - fix me

[Teyaha]

Burglars are not a top end dps class. Should a LM also have single highest dps in red line as a light armour?

No it shouldn't and likewise a Burg shouldnt

They should both be able to (As burg once did) bring abilities that greatly enhance the dps of others and lower Inc damage received with reasonable individual dps output. The LM should have a slight upper hand in debuffing with the Burg a slight upper hand in their DPS output.

Counter defence - fix me

Only 1 trick per target - fix me

Clever retort - fix me

your reply is not relevant. lore masters re ranged and have aoe. no, they should not have higher dps than a burglar.

mmorpg 101 - the class with zero aoe that has to be in melee range for everything and has the least amount of possible mitigation is the highest single target dps in the game.

burglars have nothing that compensates for NOT being the highest single target damage in the game with zero aoe's and being forced to be in melee range with the least amount of mitigations possible while in melee range.

if you have experience in this genre beyond LOTRO this should not need to be explained to you.

[Fingerz]

burglars have nothing that compensates for NOT being the highest single target damage in the game with zero aoe's and being forced to be in melee range with the least amount of mitigations possible while in melee range.

This.

Burglar's did have and should still have compensation for NOT being the highest DPS, this is what the Burglar class was designed as.
Burg's do not need to be in melee range to apply many of their tricks and debuffs.

So it's relevant, Burg's are not a Single target high DPS assassin.


This is the work the Dev should be focusing on, enhancing the items that make the Burg compensate for having lower DPS than DPS classes

[Demosthenes11]

Burglar DpS needs a complete DpS increase across the board, for all levels, for all specs and a rework or at minimum a proper scaling of once functional, meaningful and potent traits and abilities that made this class feel fluid, unique, hard and special.

Why not a main DpS class?
Burglar DpS doesn't need and - in view of its initial designing core and lore- shouldn't need to compete with natural damage dealers like hunters. Furthermore, increasing burglar DpS to such heights would limit their versatility, other utility and eventually undermine the class usefulness in group content. Exclusive debates focused on absolute values of DpS when it comes to class changes lead to less variety, less role potency, dull game-play of a tank-spank circus , where players' only concern about class preference when deciding what class to play or invite would be numbers comparisons. And there will never be a total equilibrium of numbers. Burglars have always been different and advanced. There were unique reasons to invite them to a group and it was uniquely difficult to play well enough to justify those reasons. They must not turn to DpS bots played by keyboard smashers that can as easily go afk mid fight leaving stuck toothpicks in 1-2-3 to become desirable fellows. Such would be the outcome of pushing for conversions of melee skills to ranged ones (although the melee(!) range can use a slight(!) increase) or scaling DpS to hunter standards. Please, stop that nonsense here.

Easiest way to balance the class
Careful DpS, heal and self-heal (within the spectrum of off-healing) increase, fixing outdated traits and abilities (especially counter defense, disabling gamble, hedge your bet, clever retort), updating conjunctions and conjunction relevant abilities/traits or replacing them with something equally unique and -as once- potent, bringing back mark stackability, fixing and balancing inconsistent abilities (cunning attack stackability, surprise strike damage output, aim critical effect, sharp eye my ### effect) would resurrect the burglar.

You want to go further than that?
Good, dispense with antagonizing hunters for a main damage dealer spot, lore-masters for a debuffing spot, healers for a healing spot and tanks for a tanking spot and re-introduce unique and surprising abilities, like the old version of Enrage causing the affected target to surpass aggro mechanics, which would re-establish the identity of the class as a true trickster, gambler, or quiet knife separating it from the other. The possibilities here have no end. Introduce a couple of new debuffs (like one that'd lower the target's incoming healing), combat stances/states (per say a red line trait bonus that would cause us to go in stealth after landing a devastating attack, improving survivability of a by default disadvantaged stat wise medium armor melee class, making stealth enhanced abilities stronger and adding neglected ones, like distraction, back to main rotation) or effects to existing debuffs (like tweaking tricks to become AoE and finding trickster some other use).

I could go on and on. But there's no point right now. Devs must firstly fix what is already there and malfunctioning.

PS: I've known for quite a while and even played a bit with Drizzels and Fingerz, being on the same server. I have to say their comments are in the right direction.

[Findun]

I smell the nay-sayers to burg dps increase being alarmed creep players ... anyone not seeing the burg is in its worst spot ever is totally blind.

remove the reveal weakness nerf. make it stackable again. increase overall dps across the board.

[Mithithil]

Don't chnage Burglars to accommodate some trifvial moans from PvMP. That's a distraction from the main game and simply makes the majority of burglar players suffer.

Improve the trick options and/or bring them up to speed with L120 mobs. If a week after the Anvil launches there are no posts in chat along the lines of Anvil 11/12 need or will take Burg then thats a fail on the class revamp in the only really valid test.

Blue line is a different ballgame, its not one anyone is likely to take raiding, remains a fun solo line where you can push your luck and ride the odds, but the dps is down at the Captain level wirthout the level of selff heal, mitigations or effective debuffs and urgently needs reision.