Champion Feedback Thread

[Arandour]

I want to present two hypotetical situations. I think that they're rather self explanatory.

SITUATION 1

Player: "Thanks for the invite to the raid. By the way, I see there are many spots still open and I have a Hunter kinnie who is interested, can he come?"
Raid Leader: "A Hunter? Sure!, we need DPS!"
P: "Great! But, you see, now I have another Hunter kinnie, can he come too?"
RL: "Sure! Two Hunters better than one. After all, we do have to kill the damn monsters, don't we?"

//

SITUATION 2

Player: "Thanks for the invite to the raid. By the way, I see there are many spots still open and I have a Champion kinnie who is interested, can he come?"
Raid Leader: "A Champion? Is he any good? Well, it's true, we have many spots open and probably a Champion could be useful. Ok let's invite him."
P: "Great! But, you see, now I have another Champion kinnie, can he come too?"
RL: "Oh! Sorry, I'm afraid we need to think about the balance of classes in a raid. No, we already have a Champion, so this is covered. We need now other classes."

The story of our life since Mordor.Most of the times they dont want even one champion in the group no matter how good he is.AOE is dead for the most instances our single target dps is less than range do so why to spend even a spot for us.This had to be change and change fast cause for 2 years now its happening and i dont have any more patience.After Mordor I left the game for about 6 months they make the champions update and i didnt even have the mood to log in and see of what happen after of what they did to us in Mordor.
Then new content new hope and a new raid so i deside to return cause i beleaved thet they will not make the same mistakes,now again almost the same thing.Some instances can be done some not but for none we are useful like we were in the past.We scream on forums and nothing changes.Put more melee AOE friendly mechanics or give us the same dps in single target that range do is that so hard?

[Smapper]

champ anvil footage https://www.twitch.tv/videos/364918873

[Arandour]

champ anvil footage https://www.twitch.tv/videos/364918873

Nice dps there with beorning and captain always on you yes its possible to achieve those numbers but in bosses no more blade brother for me they give it to the hunters i got cpt support only for adds.

So at 3rd boss at start you go single and then you change to aoe you bring close the 2 bosses so you can aoe.Well i thought it will be like this but beleave me in my kin if the one boss will give damage to the other probably they will deside to move them far the one from the other so i will probably stay single again.

Anyway thanks for the video i would love to see one from other bosses too especially first boss and last.

[Gertes]

Nice dps there with beorning and captain always on you yes its possible to achieve those numbers but in bosses no more blade brother for me they give it to the hunters i got cpt support only for adds.

So at 3rd boss at start you go single and then you change to aoe you bring close the 2 bosses so you can aoe.Well i thought it will be like this but beleave me in my kin if the one boss will give damage to the other probably they will deside to move them far the one from the other so i will probably stay single again.

Anyway thanks for the video i would love to see one from other bosses too especially first boss and last.

I will likly stream today, ID1 included. Yesterday was our first ID3 fight, so we did not know what to do exactly. I switch to yellow when the bosses split up, but i was jsut able to deal single target damage (if they stay close together the bosses get a +50% damage buff), i heard you can aoe them, but we did not in this case to keep the fight save.

[Justapvpdude]

I will likly stream today, ID1 included. Yesterday was our first ID3 fight, so we did not know what to do exactly. I switch to yellow when the bosses split up, but i was jsut able to deal single target damage (if they stay close together the bosses get a +50% damage buff), i heard you can aoe them, but we did not in this case to keep the fight save.

Thank you for this, maybe this will finally stop Arandour's endless QQ

[Arandour]

Thank you for this, maybe this will finally stop Arandour's endless QQ

Why to stop did you see the champion being useful at all cause i didnt.If you put a range on his place would be better unless the group find a way to keep those bosses close.The mechanic that you force them to be away one from the other or else do more damage is melee unfriendly.Anyway i am tired of answering to guys like you...

[Gertes]

Why to stop did you see the champion being useful at all cause i didnt.If you put a range on his place would be better unless the group find a way to keep those bosses close.The mechanic that you force them to be away one from the other or else do more damage is melee unfriendly.Anyway i am tired of answering to guys like you...

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/365395077

Our todays raid, we had no mini and i forgot to equip my 5% sword damage^^. With both of this, 150k+ dps are posible.

[Arandour]

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/365395077

Our todays raid, we had no mini and i forgot to equip my 5% sword damage^^. With both of this, 150k+ dps are posible.

Thanks Gertes.I did also 1-2-3 bosses yesterday with my RK and i find some points that a champs AOE can be useful.At first boss for example you can go hybrid yellow-red and deal with the adds instead of not killing them.Yesterday we all turn to the adds and we left one alive then we return to boss.At that point AOE can be useful.

At second boss also can go hybrid and deal with those 3-4 mini bosses that tank have on him after you kill the main target.

At 3rd you go single (at least for now) cause they change agro between tanks all the time and they have them separated

Also our AOE is useful for all the trash.

Today we will try 4rh i will be with my RK again but the whole raid from what i sow yesterday and from your videos at least its not Abyss.They could do it more melee friendly tho and imagine how it would be if some of as didnt say anything at all.Probably would be like Abyss even worst.

PS:You know how to play well your class no doubt about that and you guys have some awesome support also.Just finish watching first boss fight i will watch all the video ofc.

Thank you

[Gertes]

At second boss also can go hybrid and deal with those 3-4 mini bosses that tank have on him after you kill the main target.
Thank you

Yellow is very good for the second fight, you have 5 Targets, after you burseted one down 4.
A champ is most likely the best overall DPS choice here, together with a warden.
But we should switch this conversation into the champion forum, i think beta forum is the wrong place for this.

[Arandour]

Yellow is very good for the second fight, you have 5 Targets, after you burseted one down 4.
A champ is most likely the best overall DPS choice here, together with a warden.
But we should switch this conversation into the champion forum, i think beta forum is the wrong place for this.

Well yes and no at the same time cause probably will help them to see the problems but no need to continue anyway.I wish we were at the same server cause we could be good friends and speak through chat.You are good guy and this is rare anymore in here.
Thanx again.

[Aleziana]

Any chances for champions to get love before the next instance cluster release?

[Aeviternus]

I don't think champions really need any "love", instances just need be designed with melee classes in mind. The downside to having a melee class is currently unbelievably large.

Either that, or champions do need attention in the form of defensive cool downs.

[Arandour]

I don't think champions really need any "love", instances just need be designed with melee classes in mind. The downside to having a melee class is currently unbelievably large.

Either that, or champions do need attention in the form of defensive cool downs.

Champions definitely need attention buddy.For me to manage to be close to range dps need setup for my favor,good support and even hunter and warden debuffs.Have to swap weapons between skills, great knowledge of the class, daily practice on rotations, farming damage type scrolls to change damage type all the time for been more efficient etc etc.On the other hand range just need fire damage, a LM ,a banner just basic knowledge of the class and thats it.Most of the times champs are out of the banners,blade brother goes to range etc etc.Also melee unfriendly mechanics that they put sometimes making our lives even more harder.So yes we defiantly need some love and more AOE friendly instances at least.We need to have our own debuffs for mitigation's in Red line like we have in Yellow,a 10/15% boost to our single target dps cause not everyone can swap weapons to get it its not so easy and not fair at all,also lag is an issue when you swaping.Also we need less CD in skills like clober that help to cut animations from 10 to 8 sec like reavers have and better heals from Fight on.Also heavy armor should be more efficient when it comes to tactical mitigation.So yes my friend we defiantly need some love cause we are not just stand there and shooting like range does.

[Mukor]

There must come some general changes which make figths more melee friendly.
Atm the range classes have more tac mits as the melee and need less. this could be changed easely if the armour would be 1:1 for tac mit too.
In addition the will and agility classes get more from their mainstats. 2 mastery + crit/tac mit. I see no reason why might shouldn´t have a factor 3 too. A third point to mastery or as they´re all melee 1 point to phy mit.
this are the basics the rest is as you´ve said that weapon swapping on champs is more complicated as on other classes. hunter for example swap, burn hot, swap back rest could be on the mainbow.
And trhen we need changes for melee penalities, melees have a lot figths in which they need to run while range can stand and fire.

[Aeviternus]

Champions definitely need attention buddy.For me to manage to be close to range dps need setup for my favor,good support and even hunter and warden debuffs.Have to swap weapons between skills, great knowledge of the class, daily practice on rotations, farming damage type scrolls to change damage type all the time for been more efficient etc etc.On the other hand range just need fire damage, a LM ,a banner just basic knowledge of the class and thats it.Most of the times champs are out of the banners,blade brother goes to range etc etc.Also melee unfriendly mechanics that they put sometimes making our lives even more harder.So yes we defiantly need some love and more AOE friendly instances at least.We need to have our own debuffs for mitigation's in Red line like we have in Yellow,a 10/15% boost to our single target dps cause not everyone can swap weapons to get it its not so easy and not fair at all,also lag is an issue when you swaping.Also we need less CD in skills like clober that help to cut animations from 10 to 8 sec like reavers have and better heals from Fight on.Also heavy armor should be more efficient when it comes to tactical mitigation.So yes my friend we defiantly need some love cause we are not just stand there and shooting like range does.

"Farming damage type scrolls"? You're reaching. Every single person in the game does that. Daily practice on rotations? Sounds like your personal problem. I don't have that problem. Great knowledge of the class? Everyone who wants to play their class well should have that. Have to swap weapons? Yes, it's something I personally like about the class. High APM.

We need more AoE friendly instances? No we absolutely don't need that. That will force me to play yellow line as a champion. I don't want to play yellow line. By the way, just about every instance in the game is AoE friendly currently. First two bosses in the raid, final two bosses in the 6-man, every 3-man. It's just silly to say we need "more AoE friendly instances".

Heavy armour mitigations are indeed a problem. It should be far easier to get good mits as a heavy armour class. If we would simply gets mits from vitality and/or might, that problem would largely be solved.

So no, champions don't specifically need attention. Just heavy armour/melee classes in general. Champion DPS is fine, perhaps needs to be slightly higher, but certainly not much.

[Arandour]

"Farming damage type scrolls"? You're reaching. Every single person in the game does that. Daily practice on rotations? Sounds like your personal problem. I don't have that problem. Great knowledge of the class? Everyone who wants to play their class well should have that. Have to swap weapons? Yes, it's something I personally like about the class. High APM.

We need more AoE friendly instances? No we absolutely don't need that. That will force me to play yellow line as a champion. I don't want to play yellow line. By the way, just about every instance in the game is AoE friendly currently. First two bosses in the raid, final two bosses in the 6-man, every 3-man. It's just silly to say we need "more AoE friendly instances".

Heavy armour mitigations are indeed a problem. It should be far easier to get good mits as a heavy armour class. If we would simply gets mits from vitality and/or might, that problem would largely be solved.

So no, champions don't specifically need attention. Just heavy armour/melee classes in general. Champion DPS is fine, perhaps needs to be slightly higher, but certainly not much.

I dont know many RKs and hunters that farming low lvl areas all day to get different damage type scrolls they dont need them anyway cause they use fire damage so the LM buffs are more than enough.Also only those melee classes that have time and care and want to be more efficient do that.I dont know many casual champions to change damage type depending the mobs for example two three times in an instance on 3 weapons...

Yes it needs daily practice on rotations so keep you sharp and on the edge,practice makes perfect.If you dont do then start doing cause you will become better for sure.

Yes we need great knowledge of our class, range need only the basic knowledge and they can play with one hand especially RKs,try to get my general point of view here cause we need much more than just a basic knowledge of the class to reach their numbers.

Swaping weapons is something that i manage to master but doesnt mean that is fair at all and cause i am happy about my numbers doesnt mean that most of the champions out there that they dont swap are happy or can do it.We have to swap weapons so to get that 15% extra that we need to be close with range and sometimes lag dont help at all.So no its not fair at all a RK to use just a stone and a hunter to swap just a bow for couple of skills and me having to use 3 different weapons and change in every skill to be close on dps with them.

As i said try to get the general picture here and you will see that we are not in so advance position.

One last thing,you said you dont like to play yellow so you dont like to play our base setup?Cause this class was made mostly for that purpose to make as much damage as he can to multiple targets this is our priority spec even you like it or not and beleave me if we didnt give fights at forums we probably had in our hands another Abyss right now with lots of melee unfriendly mechanics,cause when Anvil was at beta was extremely melee and aoe melee unfriendly.After we start shouting at forums they start changing it.Even when it was live Was needed at least 5-6 fixes so we can be AOE on our PRIMARY spec at first boss.Also in the mind of the most raid leaders when not melee AOE needed no champion needed and they fill the spot with range.

SO if you like the class its your main and you love champions so much as i do then support my suggestions or else i dont know probably champion is not your main and you dont care that much.

[Aeviternus]

I dont know many RKs and hunters that farming low lvl areas all day to get different damage type scrolls they dont need them anyway cause they use fire damage so the LM buffs are more than enough.Also only those melee classes that have time and care and want to be more efficient do that.I dont know many casual champions to change damage type depending the mobs for example two three times in an instance on 3 weapons...

Yes it needs daily practice on rotations so keep you sharp and on the edge,practice makes perfect.If you dont do then start doing cause you will become better for sure.

Yes we need great knowledge of our class, range need only the basic knowledge and they can play with one hand especially RKs,try to get my general point of view here cause we need much more than just a basic knowledge of the class to reach their numbers.

I think you're showing clear signs of bias here. If you're going to say that champions need to practice their rotation every day, you can say the same about any class. Fire RKs don't have a simply rotation if you want to min/max well. Neither do hunters. Same goes for the class knowledge. It makes absolutely no sense for you to say that ranged classes only need basic knowledge. Fire RKs need to know how Searing Heat interacts with Writ of Fire tiers, they need to know which DoTs have the priority and design a perfect opener for themselves to apply all their DoTs as quickly as possible. None of that is any easier than what a champion has to do. So please, stop using this double standard to get your point across. Champions aren't more difficult in concept than any ranged class. More difficult to play? Perhaps. Not more difficult to understand.

As for changing weapon scrolls mid-instance, I don't do that, and if you want to, you brought that upon yourself, but yeah, perhaps damage types should become more standardised.

Swaping weapons is something that i manage to master but doesnt mean that is fair at all and cause i am happy about my numbers doesnt mean that most of the champions out there that they dont swap are happy or can do it.We have to swap weapons so to get that 15% extra that we need to be close with range and sometimes lag dont help at all.So no its not fair at all a RK to use just a stone and a hunter to swap just a bow for couple of skills and me having to use 3 different weapons and change in every skill to be close on dps with them.

Some classes are more difficult to play than others. I think that's completely fine. Wardens don't have an easy time either. Difficulty isn't a problem.

As i said try to get the general picture here and you will see that we are not in so advance position.

Melee classes are in a poor position, due to instance design. Champions by themselves are fine.

One last thing,you said you dont like to play yellow so you dont like to play our base setup?Cause this class was made mostly for that purpose to make as much damage as he can to multiple targets this is our priority spec even you like it or not and beleave me if we didnt give fights at forums we probably had in our hands another Abyss right now with lots of melee unfriendly mechanics,cause when Anvil was at beta was extremely melee and aoe melee unfriendly.After we start shouting at forums they start changing it.Even when it was live Was needed at least 5-6 fixes so we can be AOE on our PRIMARY spec at first boss.Also in the mind of the most raid leaders when not melee AOE needed no champion needed and they fill the spot with range.

Absolute nonsense, AoE isn't the champion's primary design. It's what it's designed for when spec'ed yellow. There is literally nothing that says that red line should be any less viable, and red line champions were top tier single target DPS for every expansion in the past, right up until Helm's Deep came out. So you're simly talking nonsense when you say that AoE is the champion's "base setup". I don't like playing yellow, and when I started playing my champion, it was top tier ST DPS. That's what I want it to be now.

Raid leaders filling spots with ranged DPS once again shows one thing, and one thing alone; melee classes in general are disadvantaged. Not champions specifically.

SO if you like the class its your main and you love champions so much as i do then support my suggestions or else i dont know probably champion is not your main and you dont care that much.

Champion is my main, and I don't support your suggestions. Try to wrap your head around it.

[Mukor]

What they must change is the bleed after criting strikes.
The bleed must count initial not first count after four seconds with a timer reset after a new crit.
Or the time must be summed up. First crit 20s timer, second +20s and so on.
But it cannot be that we get fights without bleedticks and crits on mass

[Aeviternus]

What they must change is the bleed after criting strikes.
The bleed must count initial not first count after four seconds with a timer reset after a new crit.
Or the time must be summed up. First crit 20s timer, second +20s and so on.
But it cannot be that we get fights without bleedticks and crits on mass

Your first suggestion is very poorly thought out. It would make Deep Strikes far too strong. You could crit Brutal Strikes three times and have 3 bleed ticks, all with initial damage. The result would be that crits feel even more overpowered, and normal hits even less impactful. This is the exact opposite of what champions need. We need less crit reliance. Nerf critical magnitude, buff base damage.

Additional time added is pointless. You will land a crit once every few seconds. 20s is already unnecessary, more would be pointless.

The point of Deep Strikes is to have some form of bad luck protection. If you don't get any crits for a few seconds, you get a bleed tick. That is fine. And let me repeat: initial bleed tick would make the class even more reliant on crits.

Champions have only one problem at the moment; crit reliance. The critical magnitude legacy needs to be nerfed heavily, and base damage needs to be brought up to compensate. This goes for every class with crit magnitude legacies, but mostly for champions.

[Mukor]

Your first suggestion is very poorly thought out. It would make Deep Strikes far too strong. You could crit Brutal Strikes three times and have 3 bleed ticks, all with initial damage. The result would be that crits feel even more overpowered, and normal hits even less impactful. This is the exact opposite of what champions need. We need less crit reliance. Nerf critical magnitude, buff base damage.

Additional time added is pointless. You will land a crit once every few seconds. 20s is already unnecessary, more would be pointless.

The point of Deep Strikes is to have some form of bad luck protection. If you don't get any crits for a few seconds, you get a bleed tick. That is fine. And let me repeat: initial bleed tick would make the class even more reliant on crits.

Champions have only one problem at the moment; crit reliance. The critical magnitude legacy needs to be nerfed heavily, and base damage needs to be brought up to compensate. This goes for every class with crit magnitude legacies, but mostly for champions.

I see it completly different, with crit reliance, tanks have a little chance to keep the aggro and on crit, switch. With higher base dmg and less crit reliance tanks would be loose the aggro much easier and faster, which would make them more taunt reliant.
So with going on crit relaince it cannot be that champs get puished if they crit to much.
Maybe a mniddle way no reset of the count but a second crit would make the counter back to 20s.
So if you crit a second time after 3s the timer will be back to 20s as now but the bleed ticks after one second not as now reseted afer 4.

[Aeviternus]

I see it completly different, with crit reliance, tanks have a little chance to keep the aggro and on crit, switch. With higher base dmg and less crit reliance tanks would be loose the aggro much easier and faster, which would make them more taunt reliant.
So with going on crit relaince it cannot be that champs get puished if they crit to much.
Maybe a mniddle way no reset of the count but a second crit would make the counter back to 20s.
So if you crit a second time after 3s the timer will be back to 20s as now but the bleed ticks after one second not as now reseted afer 4.

... tank aggro is your main argument? Do you think that anyone is going to take that seriously? Tank aggro is literally a non-issue after the first 20 or so seconds of an encounter. Furthermore, champion crit chance is 45%, making it plausible for a very high amount of crits on pull with 5% extra crit from a captain banner. There would be no difference between the current scenario, and what I am proposing. Moreover, hunter DPS on pull is significantly higher than a champion's, yet it's not a problem there.

In other words: if you are going to make the case that champions aren't too crit reliant (which is a hilariously uninformed statement), at least provide valid arguments, this makes no sense whatsoever.

[Gertes]

Your first suggestion is very poorly thought out. It would make Deep Strikes far too strong. You could crit Brutal Strikes three times and have 3 bleed ticks, all with initial damage. The result would be that crits feel even more overpowered, and normal hits even less impactful. This is the exact opposite of what champions need. We need less crit reliance. Nerf critical magnitude, buff base damage.

Additional time added is pointless. You will land a crit once every few seconds. 20s is already unnecessary, more would be pointless.

The point of Deep Strikes is to have some form of bad luck protection. If you don't get any crits for a few seconds, you get a bleed tick. That is fine. And let me repeat: initial bleed tick would make the class even more reliant on crits.

Champions have only one problem at the moment; crit reliance. The critical magnitude legacy needs to be nerfed heavily, and base damage needs to be brought up to compensate. This goes for every class with crit magnitude legacies, but mostly for champions.

Badluck protection? You have something around 50+% crittchance in red, you must be really unlucky to not crit^^.
I had fights with over 3min duration and just 2 bleed ticks.

Crit is not the main Problem of champs, its to extreme reliance in support/good group/RAID Setups.
In 3 to 6 mans even rk's performer better then champs, its just in an good raidsetup wäre physical mele dd's can compete with RK and hunters.

Nerf Lm's or buff other support tools that benefit mele physical damage or give champs tools to make them more independent.

[Aeviternus]

Badluck protection? You have something around 50+% crittchance in red, you must be really unlucky to not crit^^.
I had fights with over 3min duration and just 2 bleed ticks.

Crit is not the main Problem of champs, its to extreme reliance in support/good group/RAID Setups.
In 3 to 6 mans even rk's performer better then champs, its just in an good raidsetup wäre physical mele dd's can compete with RK and hunters.

Nerf Lm's or buff other support tools that benefit mele physical damage or give champs tools to make them more independent.

Deep Strikes comes from a time where champs did not have 45% crit chance. It served as I described then. The concept is now outdated, it only does anything in PvMP. But making it have initial ticks, or extended duration, is absolutely not a good solution. One would practically just make crits do more damage, the other is useless. The proper solution is to never let the bleed refresh. It just ticks down and expires, then gets re-applied.

[Mukor]

... tank aggro is your main argument? Do you think that anyone is going to take that seriously? Tank aggro is literally a non-issue after the first 20 or so seconds of an encounter. Furthermore, champion crit chance is 45%, making it plausible for a very high amount of crits on pull with 5% extra crit from a captain banner. There would be no difference between the current scenario, and what I am proposing. Moreover, hunter DPS on pull is significantly higher than a champion's, yet it's not a problem there.

In other words: if you are going to make the case that champions aren't too crit reliant (which is a hilariously uninformed statement), at least provide valid arguments, this makes no sense whatsoever.

Yeah tanks can taunt and finished, but it does matter if they need to taunt after 50k dps and multiply themself to 450k aggro or at 200k and multyply them self to 1800k. With one minute cd. a 450k lead is a small lead which is fast closed max 3 seconds for the lead and mybe a fourth for the aggro they build in this time.
Total ignoring, cause it´s offtopic, that the complete system must become overworked that tanking isn´t taunt relevant anymore, taunts need go back to a factor of 1.2 as emergency skill rest normal aggrobuild with an race as in old days. not now a sure lost and taunt, with the result that you can go afk in a few fighss.
So maybe they should reduce the crit chnace back to 5 or 10% for each dps class with a high multiplier so they will keep their dps.
But if they don´t solve the melee penality with the higher inc dmg/ less mits and be aware of more mechanics, they need to buff melee dps far above range, so a leader csan choose a hard to keep alive dps which hits as hell or a dps which survive easely.
So if they don´t reduce the melee penality theyx need to buff champs a lot for this they should make crited /devasted strikes ignoring all mits.

[Gertes]

Deep Strikes comes from a time where champs did not have 45% crit chance. It served as I described then. The concept is now outdated, it only does anything in PvMP. But making it have initial ticks, or extended duration, is absolutely not a good solution. One would practically just make crits do more damage, the other is useless. The proper solution is to never let the bleed refresh. It just ticks down and expires, then gets re-applied.

Absolutely, but i would rather prefer that a specific Skill applies a dot (maby ferocius/brutal strikes).