@Vastin - Beorning Tank Needs a Nerf

[Mukor]

Regarding the panic I was replying to Ilu who said that Beo never needs to use TH, which means that it is better than guardian at surviving. You guys really need to read each others’ posts before continuing to try and prove me wrong, you’re only contradicting your posts at this point.

OK this one is on me. But I still miss the reason for what you need more as one aoe taunt?

[dsltn07]

As every other tank, run into the group, do normal aoe, aggro switch, stun, further dmg when they move aoe taunt ( in the best case 10% of the foe morals are lost).
And with tr you´re even not limited on targets as other tanks are.
So the question is for what do you need more?
And starting with a panic isn´t beo exclusive. It´s more or less standard that the healers don´t need to heal from the beginning that the first touch is from the tank.
Furthermore I didn´t say it should be your only taunt it just should be your only aoe taunt (vr can be keeped).

Go tank anvil boss 2, or the whelp/drake pulls from boss 2 room, and then tell me that maul should be removed.
I absolutely guarantee that you will not hold aggro on boss 2 if all you use is thunder and vigilant.

The problem is that because of how spread out the whelps and drakes start it’s extremely difficult to get them all at once. Further, I don’t know how you can possibly do boss 2 with 10 meter range without a follow up. You can’t hold initial without a force attack because of how fast dps starts. They’re also stun immune etc.

[Mukor]

Go tank anvil boss 2, or the whelp/drake pulls from boss 2 room, and then tell me that maul should be removed.
I absolutely guarantee that you will not hold aggro on boss 2 if all you use is thunder and vigilant.

All other don't have more taunts and it works. IT just a question of timing.

[dsltn07]

All other don't have more taunts and it works. IT just a question of timing.

What others? Can cappy tank all 5 and hold agro? Even guard struggles with their 10s force attack.

My point is that thunder alone would not be sufficiently capable because of how short the duration AND range are. You can’t hold it because of the range, you can’t throw it early because of the duration. It requires a follow up.

[Iluvata]

You wasted nine essence slots on capping man form Pmit? So that you can use a limited target melee force attack skill and hearten?

Your point about survivability makes zero sense. None.

You also missed where I was replying to Mukor about our taunts. He was implying that all but thunderous should be removed, so I replied asking how he intended to hold agro using exclusively thunderous.

There are some pulls that require starting with TH up.

In short, you can keep saying that I’m just a bad player because I disagree with you, but that does not make you right, nor your logic sound.

Did I say I wasted 9 essences? No I didn't.

You don't want to have a conversation, you just want to argue.

[dsltn07]

Did I say I wasted 9 essences? No I didn't.

You don't want to have a conversation, you just want to argue.

That was my opinion mixed with a tinge of surprise. I was saying it’s a waste of 9 essence slots to cap man form to gain biting edge and hearten.

That’s 40,000 morale in essences you traded for a force attack skill you claim is useless, and an extra 4-5k HPS.
While at the same time, you’re arguing that the 40k or so morale from our passive is sooo OP it has made guardians useless.

[Iluvata]

Go tank anvil boss 2, or the whelp/drake pulls from boss 2 room, and then tell me that maul should be removed.
I absolutely guarantee that you will not hold aggro on boss 2 if all you use is thunder and vigilant.

The problem is that because of how spread out the whelps and drakes start it’s extremely difficult to get them all at once. Further, I don’t know how you can possibly do boss 2 with 10 meter range without a follow up. You can’t hold initial without a force attack because of how fast dps starts. They’re also stun immune etc.

I tank T2 all the time, and T3 once or twice a week as well. If you lose aggro on boss 2 as a bear, that is on you my friend. I cannot believe there are beornings that don't use Biting Edge. Just try it instead of arguing.

[Iluvata]

On second thought, don't use it. If Beornings are too stubborn to use it, then that resolves the problem of beornings having too many taunts.


You know, these are some of the reasons why some people don't take Beornings into raids. Some of you don't know how to play lol!



I maintain my point @Vastin. The beorning needs a nerf. It can already tank T2 Anvil even with no one playing it properly.

[dsltn07]

On second thought, don't use it. If Beornings are too stubborn to use it, then that resolves the problem of beornings having too many taunts.


You know, these are some of the reasons why some people don't take Beornings into raids. Some of you don't know how to play lol!

You’ve only said this 5 separate times I think, try again? Maybe if you keep saying it it’ll be true.

[dsltn07]

I tank T2 all the time, and T3 once or twice a week as well. If you lose aggro on boss 2 as a bear, that is on you my friend. I cannot believe there are beornings that don't use Biting Edge. Just try it instead of arguing.

You keep going back and forth. First you beg for biting edge and maul to be removed. Then you call me a bad player for asking how you intend on doing X content without the skills you want removed. Do you want the skills removed, or not? I suspect you know that I’m right and now you’re just trying to sling mud.

[Iluvata]

I suspect you know that I’m right and now you’re just trying to sling mud.

You’ve only said this 5 separate times I think, try again? Maybe if you keep saying it it’ll be true.

You keep going back and forth. First you beg for biting edge and maul to be removed. Then you call me a bad player for asking how you intend on doing X content without the skills you want removed. Do you want the skills removed, or not?

What I want is @Vastin to take a look at the beorning and make some changes. In my original post, I listed out a few things. Even just nerfing one of of them would leave the Beorning a still-viable tank, but prevent it from encroaching on the guardian.

How do I plan to tank the content without the skills? As an off-tank/healer swap of course.

Beornings can currently main-tank and main-heal T3. Not fair to the rest of the classes who can only do one role (well, captain can do 1.5 roles).

[dsltn07]

You’ve only said this 5 separate times I think, try again? Maybe if you keep saying it it’ll be true.



What I want is @Vastin to take a look at the beorning and make some changes. In my original post, I listed out a few things. Even just nerfing one of of them would leave the Beorning a still-viable tank, but prevent it from encroaching on the guardian.

How do I plan to tank the content without the skills? As an off-tank/healer swap of course.

Beornings can currently main-tank and main-heal T3. Not fair to the rest of the classes who can only do one role (well, captain can do 1.5 roles).

"Not Fair"??? "Encroaching"???

We're going back to you just generally being upset that they have more than one role. Might as well nerf captains, cannot have them tanking and buffing! Let's nerf RKs too, they cannot heals and DPS! Wardens have already been nerfed, but let's nerf them again! They can still tank 3 man content!
This is ridiculous.

[dsltn07]

Let me first say that I prefer class diversity. I think every class should ideally have two to three viable trait lines.

The biggest problem with this is that the majority of balance issues involve healers and tanks. The vast majority of the players that heal or tank do so on guardians and minstrels because they are the oldest, simplest, most consistent classes for those roles. The problem that has come up repeatedly through lotro’s history is that one of the alternate classes becomes a strong competitor for one of those main roles. When this happens, the large number of players that main guardian/minstrel begin to complain, very LOUDLY that their class has been left behind. This typically results in the alternate class being nerfed to oblivion. The best and saddest example of this has been the warden tank. Instead of actually balancing the alternate class, Turbine or SSG has seriously nerfed the alternate class until its competing role is useless.

THIS is why I have been vehemently opposing nerfs to Beo. There are currently very few people presenting the opposing viewpoint, and there are a LOT of mini/guardians currently asking for overly severe nerfs to Beo.

Let me just refer you here: https://www.lotro.com/forums/forumdi...hp?311-Wardens

Read the above, read that forum. Players like you are what happened to the warden. You.

[Iluvata]

"Not Fair"??? "Encroaching"???

We're going back to you just generally being upset that they have more than one role. Might as well nerf captains, cannot have them tanking and buffing! Let's nerf RKs too, they cannot heals and DPS! Wardens have already been nerfed, but let's nerf them again! They can still tank 3 man content!
This is ridiculous.

Yes, it is unfair for Beornings to be able to fulfil TWO MAIN ROLES. If you don't think so, you need a reality check. That is not class balance. Everyone should have a role. I can see that you all you care about is yourself and your own Beorning. You seem to forget, despite me having said it numerous times, that I have a maxed beorning. I want the nerf anyway. Because the current state of things is unfair to others.

Captains can only half-tank. Beorning, even with nerfs would still probably be better.

RKs can do two roles, but they are second and third string at both. They are way behind hunters in terms of single-target DPS. They are way behind champs and Wardens for AOE DPS. They are way behind mini's and beornings in terms of heals. RKs can heal or DPS, but you either take them when you don't have those other classes, or need a very versatile class.

Wardens can still output over 300k DPS in the Anvil on Boss 2. Wardens can still tank all 3-man instances, and many, many 6 man instances. Like the RK, because they can fulfil two roles, they are not the best at either.

Truly, your blind love for the beorning is disconcerting.

[dsltn07]

Yes, it is unfair for Beornings to be able to fulfil TWO MAIN ROLES. If you don't think so, you need a reality check. That is not class balance. Everyone should have a role. I can see that you all you care about is yourself and your own Beorning. You seem to forget, despite me having said it numerous times, that I have a maxed beorning. I want the nerf anyway. Because the current state of things is unfair to others.

Captains can only half-tank. Beorning, even with nerfs would still probably be better.

RKs can do two roles, but they are second and third string at both. They are way behind hunters in terms of single-target DPS. They are way behind champs and Wardens for AOE DPS. They are way behind mini's and beornings in terms of heals. RKs can heal or DPS, but you either take them when you don't have those other classes, or need a versatile class.

Truly, your blind love for the beorning is disconcerting.

Let me reiterate a major point. The Beorning's 5% less tact mits is offset by its massively higher morale pool. That is not arguable.
I firmly believe Beorning is more survivable than the Guardian in many situations, but I'm not going to waste my breath anymore. Anyone who thinks otherwise does not play the class properly.

So lets say for arguments sake that the Beorning is just equal in sturdiness to the guardian. The bear still has far better taunts (3 AOE taunts, two of which are in Bear form with much shorter CDs than challenge), a significantly simpler rotation, and absolutely massive group DPS buffs for the group.
That is my whole argument. I am not blindly asking for a nerf. Why would I want a massive nerf to a class that I spent so much time and effort into. I just want a small nerf to return the Guardian (which I also invested a lot of my time into) back into its normal spot.

Holy moly, Batman this is nuts. I'm not even going to go into the other classes with you here, but you're dead wrong.

I never forgot you said you have a Beo, but I understand you don't like the class. That's fine, but it sounds to me like your raid leader told you they like the Bee/crush bonus more for Isvitha/Hrimil than your guard, so now you've come here to rant and try to ruin the class because you want to play your guardian again.

Further, you've entirely ignored any facts or numbers anyone has given you about how Beo takes substantially more damage than a guardian.

[Mukor]

What others? Can cappy tank all 5 and hold agro? Even guard struggles with their 10s force attack.

My point is that thunder alone would not be sufficiently capable because of how short the duration AND range are. You can’t hold it because of the range, you can’t throw it early because of the duration. It requires a follow up.

There are no problems with one aoe and one St taunt.
If you can't keep the aggro, maybe the reseting dwarf is on board. Solution offtank and away with him.

[Treadstone87]

I disagree. I think it's great that Beornings are finally excelling at something. The game's other hybrid class, Captains, have been the darlings of the game for nearly 12 years running. It's okay if Beornings are good for a while.

[TheRedfox]

I'm waiting for someone to post damage taken parses so it just puts things to rest.

[Mukor]

I'm waiting for someone to post damage taken parses so it just puts things to rest.

If you want to do this. You need two with capped mits the same BPE, critdef, resi etc.
Then looking at the morale. Taking 100 tps more with 20% more morale is ignorable etc or even better as less with less.
And then you need to look at the HPs, self created and received from the same healer.
This on different fights each fight minimu 20 times that you've got a good average.
And so on.

But this doesn't change anything that three aoe taunts give the possiblity to ignore mechanics and so on.
On guards they douple the cd of challenge cause some called All 30s op. So how is this more op as three taunts.

[Estelrandir]

@Iluvata: Did you consider that yo uare just much better than any guardian in your kin? Even than your own guardian?

Did you consider that easy aggro management of beo makes it much easier to keep the enemies on you in comparison to other tank classes? Did you consider, that this easy aggro management makes it much easier to tank for newer and avarage players? Did you consider that usually other classes don´t care how much dmg do you take, only if you can keep the enemies on yourself and this view can lead to prefer the beo tank?

Did you consider that incoming damage for relevant tank classes is healable and then it doesn´t matter if you take 15% more or less dmg than other tanks?


While I do understand your situation and your experience, I don´t think this view is shared in other kins and pugs. Time will show if it is true and once beo will be so much prefered that no other tank classes will have a job, I guarantee you, the beo will get a nerf. Sorry, but it won´t be today.


I am on here on Happychappy side. Here is his quote:

Can guardians Tank? Yes
Do Guardians get taken into raids as Tanks? yes
Are Beornings picked over Guardians as tanks? No
Can Beornings tank? yes
Do Beornings get taken into raids as tanks? yes

All seems good to me.

[TheRedfox]

It seems like the big picture issue is less about taunt cooldowns and more about the threat difference between tanks and DPS. The threat multiplier on tanks can't keep up with the widening gap between tank damage output and DPS damage output. If Vastin increased the multiplier for all tank specs then forced taunts could go back being for oh #### moments where something gets away (or recovering after a battle rez).

[Mukor]

It seems like the big picture issue is less about taunt cooldowns and more about the threat difference between tanks and DPS. The threat multiplier on tanks can't keep up with the widening gap between tank damage output and DPS damage output. If Vastin increased the multiplier for all tank specs then forced taunts could go back being for oh #### moments where something gets away (or recovering after a battle rez).

This and factor 1.2 for copy multiply should be enough again. Back to the roots with aggrotapping in case of guards that litany increase the aggro over time, champs could win on value again if ebing ire would add the aggro of the champ to his target and not only let it vamished.
But this changed not that three aoe taunts are to much even with the current system one is enough (well it sucks to be dependent on taunts) but if you now the mechanic it works.
Furthermore you can't say for one class their one aoe taunt with 30s cd is op and douple the CD for balancing and let have another three aoe taunts which let the ignore the mechanics.
With three aoe taunts you taunt in 5s the dpser build (just to name a number) 100k,lost if aggro second taunt, copy mulityply to 900k(if they do in 5s100k for the missing 800they need 40s,lost Third taunt multiply to 8.1 mil. And if this isn't enough the first would be free again. (not mentioned that between the taunts the tank create his own threat so the List will come later.)
How is this not op especiallely with the knowledge that having only one with 30s is defined as to be op.

[ColMcStacky]

This would still be given if you take two of the three taunts from the beo or reduce challenge on guards.
Beos take less physical, guards less tactical.
With three taunts they joke the tanking system they developed.

Unless they completely revamp the threat system, which is very doubtful, then the taunts shouldn't go anywhere. Guard has better range on agro skills for better initial agro, Beorning has shorter cooldowns for better sustained agro through threatwipes. Once again, this looks like a situation where each tank shines in a different area. I fail to see how a nerf to one would still result in balance when it comes to threat.

You have to keep in mind, there are multiple categories (for want of a better word) that tanks need to be viable in to be feasible as a tank. They need competitive damage reductions, threat/agro, self-sustain/heals, cooldowns, and support (offensive/defensive).

Some tanks have more of one and less of another, as it should be, but having a baseline is still necessary in each of these (except support).



Guards have 70%/70% mitigations, 0% incoming damage reduction; Beornings have 75%/65% mitigations, 0% incoming damage reduction (+20% Morale).

Guards have 20m AoE agro, 40m single-target agro, and longer taunt durations/cooldowns; Beornings have 10m AoE agro, 30m single-target agro, and more stringent requirements on skills (proper stance/positioning).

Guards have respectable self-sustain (especially in yellow), as do Beornings. Beornings might be slightly further ahead though, depending on traiting of both classes.

Guards unequivocally have better cooldowns than Beornings. Guards have 4 (I think? Don't play a Guard myself), Beornings have 1, although Thickened Hide is very potent.

Guards have Shield-Wall (yes, it is a support skill) and Litany of Defiance, Beornings have Sacrifice, and -15% Phys Mit and +15% incoming damage. Beornings obviously have better group-support overall.



Overall, it sounds like Guards are better with tactical damage, agro range/initial agro, and cooldowns. Beornings are stronger with physical damage, sustained agro, arguably self-heals, and support.

Considering each of these categories are not all weighted the same (I'd argue cooldowns are more important than self-heals in many situations, though not all), it appears that both Guards and Beornings are fairly balanced, complementing each other's weaknesses fairly well.

[Mukor]

Unless they completely revamp the threat system, which is very doubtful, then the taunts shouldn't go anywhere. Guard has better range on agro skills for better initial agro, Beorning has shorter cooldowns for better sustained agro through threatwipes. Once again, this looks like a situation where each tank shines in a different area. I fail to see how a nerf to one would still result in balance when it comes to threat.

You have to keep in mind, there are multiple categories (for want of a better word) that tanks need to be viable in to be feasible as a tank. They need competitive damage reductions, threat/agro, self-sustain/heals, cooldowns, and support (offensive/defensive).

Some tanks have more of one and less of another, as it should be, but having a baseline is still necessary in each of these (except support).



Guards have 70%/70% mitigations, 0% incoming damage reduction; Beornings have 75%/65% mitigations, 0% incoming damage reduction (+20% Morale).

Guards have 20m AoE agro, 40m single-target agro, and longer taunt durations/cooldowns; Beornings have 10m AoE agro, 30m single-target agro, and more stringent requirements on skills (proper stance/positioning).

Guards have respectable self-sustain (especially in yellow), as do Beornings. Beornings might be slightly further ahead though, depending on traiting of both classes.

Guards unequivocally have better cooldowns than Beornings. Guards have 4 (I think? Don't play a Guard myself), Beornings have 1, although Thickened Hide is very potent.

Guards have Shield-Wall (yes, it is a support skill) and Litany of Defiance, Beornings have Sacrifice, and -15% Phys Mit and +15% incoming damage. Beornings obviously have better group-support overall.



Overall, it sounds like Guards are better with tactical damage, agro range/initial agro, and cooldowns. Beornings are stronger with physical damage, sustained agro, arguably self-heals, and support.

Considering each of these categories are not all weighted the same (I'd argue cooldowns are more important than self-heals in many situations, though not all), it appears that both Guards and Beornings are fairly balanced, complementing each other's weaknesses fairly well.

This aren't any differences. For tanking you need to survive and taunt on point x optimal 90% momorale. This is needed in any case. And having three taunts is op. Cause you can taunt ist Ben ever needed. At the beginning after switch.... There is no need of skill. Everything else is a joke/ignorable for keeping aggro.

[dsltn07]

This and factor 1.2 for copy multiply should be enough again. Back to the roots with aggrotapping in case of guards that litany increase the aggro over time, champs could win on value again if ebing ire would add the aggro of the champ to his target and not only let it vamished.
But this changed not that three aoe taunts are to much even with the current system one is enough (well it sucks to be dependent on taunts) but if you now the mechanic it works.
Furthermore you can't say for one class their one aoe taunt with 30s cd is op and douple the CD for balancing and let have another three aoe taunts which let the ignore the mechanics.
With three aoe taunts you taunt in 5s the dpser build (just to name a number) 100k,lost if aggro second taunt, copy mulityply to 900k(if they do in 5s100k for the missing 800they need 40s,lost Third taunt multiply to 8.1 mil. And if this isn't enough the first would be free again. (not mentioned that between the taunts the tank create his own threat so the List will come later.)
How is this not op especiallely with the knowledge that having only one with 30s is defined as to be op.

From what you’ve said so far, it seems you still don’t understand the differences between maul/thunder and challenge. Maul is a 30s cd, melee range, channeled 5s force taunt. Challenge is a 20m, 10s duration, used to be 30s cd. Thunderous roar is a 75 second cd (45 with legacy), 10m range. If you require using all your taunts for a typical trash pull then yeah you don’t know how to play (what you an Ilu have been saying) but it is important for certain situations to have more weak utility taunts since thunderous is so much more handicapped compared to challenge. If you want Biting edge removed then fine, but you might as well petition for vigilant roar to be buffed to 40m range to match guardians fray, and buff thunderous to a 20m range with 10s duration to match challenge too.