@Vastin - Beorning Tank Needs a Nerf

[Mukor]

Biting edge is not typically viable for higher tier content because it requires man form. So that already drops it to two melee taunts: Maul 30s cd, and thunder 45s cd.

Also consider that our skills do not explicitly generate agro like guardians do to my knowledge except for reflect threat that is directly tied to vigilant and thunderous.

Compared to the dps we have atm All skills except a crited to devasted shield smash are a joke for threatgeneration.
So they need taunts to keep the aggro.
And for that are even two with 30s and 45s far better as one with 60s

[dsltn07]

Compared to the dps we have atm All skills except a crited to devasted shield smash are a joke for threatgeneration.
So they need taunts to keep the aggro.
And for that are even two with 30s and 45s far better as one with 60s

I’d contend that that would reach more towards guards needing a utility or buff rather than a Beo nerf.
That overall damage discussion begins to reach further towards the skewed damage/mit/stat issue at large, and the runaway stats vs damage scaling.
Like Blato said, two melee range taunts vs a larger ranged aoe taunt is a matter of situation. A lot of adds in a small localized area Beo excels, fewer adds spread over an area the guardian far outperforms Beo.

It should also be noted if you’re going to compare challenge, that its force attack is double the duration of thunderous roar for a similar cooldown but more range.

[Iluvata]

Let me reiterate a major point. The Beorning's 5% less tact mits is offset by its massively higher morale pool. That is not arguable.
I firmly believe Beorning is more survivable than the Guardian in many situations, but I'm not going to waste my breath anymore. Anyone who thinks otherwise does not play the class properly.


So lets say for arguments sake that the Beorning is just equal in sturdiness to the guardian. The bear still has far better taunts (3 AOE taunts, two of which are in Bear form with much shorter CDs than challenge), a significantly simpler rotation, and absolutely massive group DPS buffs for the group.


In T2 Anvil, I tank the boss 1 adds. On boss 4, I tank the adds. On trash pulls, I tank the adds. Main-tank. Main-tank. Main-tank. The Beorning should not be main-tank capable. It should be a viable tank, but not main-tank capable.

That is my whole argument. I am not blindly asking for a nerf. Why would I want a massive nerf to a class that I spent so much time and effort into. I just want a small nerf to return the Guardian (which I also invested a lot of my time into) back into its normal spot.

Every class should get a role. Bear gets two. Guard has to share their one role. Get over yourselves.

[Iluvata]

Compared to the dps we have atm All skills except a crited to devasted shield smash are a joke for threatgeneration.
So they need taunts to keep the aggro.
And for that are even two with 30s and 45s far better as one with 60s

Thank you!

[dsltn07]

Let me reiterate a major point. The Beorning's 5% less tact mits is offset by its massively higher morale pool. That is not arguable.
I firmly believe Beorning is more survivable than the Guardian in many situations, but I'm not going to waste my breath anymore. Anyone who thinks otherwise does not play the class properly.


So lets say for arguments sake that the Beorning is just equal in sturdiness to the guardian. The bear still has far better taunts (3 AOE taunts, two of which are in Bear form with much shorter CDs than challenge), a significantly simpler rotation, and absolutely massive group DPS buffs for the group.


In T2 Anvil, I tank the boss 1 adds. On boss 4, I tank the adds. On trash pulls, I tank the adds. Main-tank. Main-tank. Main-tank. The Beorning should not be main-tank capable. It should be a viable tank, but not main-tank capable.

That is my whole argument. I am not blindly asking for a nerf. Why would I want a massive nerf to a class that I spent so much time and effort into. I just want a small nerf to return the Guardian (which I also invested a lot of my time into) back into its normal spot.

Every class should get a role. Bear gets two. Guard has to share their one role. Get over yourselves.

Nerfing a class because it has two possible roles is a terrible argument. Further, I made a strong case for challenge vs maul/thunderous, have a read. It’s also NOT equal in sturdiness to the guard. For multiple reasons I’ve outlined above and you have declined to read. You sir, should get over YOURself.

Just for you, for clarity’s sake I decided to restate the reasons here:
*Force taunts*
-challenge taunt duration is double that of thunderous, and the cooldown is only 15s longer.
-Biting edge should not be considered since it’s a severe handicap.
-Maul is a 30s cd frontal channeled attack

*Sturdiness*
-You keep going on about the Worthy Adversary trait that provides +20% morale, and +30% armor while in bear form. This is a terrible trait. It skews the balancing and creates this perception of a strong role. What it does realistically is gate half our abilities behind man form. Dropping into man form reduces healing through the perceived morale drop. The armor buff prevents properly balancing our armor values. You forget that Beo has no shield. This causes us to lose out on IIRC:
50k armor, 10k Tmit, 15k Crit Def. (Roughly the equivalent of 12-13 empowered essences)

-Next, the 5% Tmit difference you brushed aside. This is the equivalent of taking 17% more tactical damage than a guardian. There goes the 20% morale bonus.

From what you’ve said so far, it sounds like you’re just upset that a Beo in bear form has higher morale than your guardian

[Beastnas]

That is my whole argument. I am not blindly asking for a nerf. Why would I want a massive nerf to a class that I spent so much time and effort into. I just want a small nerf to return the Guardian (which I also invested a lot of my time into) back into its normal spot.

Every class should get a role. Bear gets two. Guard has to share their one role. Get over yourselves.

When you say words like "obsolete" and "not viable" about Captains and Guards simply because Beornings exist, I honestly don't know what response you expect.

[Iluvata]

Nerfing a class because it has two possible roles is a terrible argument. Further, I made a strong case for challenge vs maul/thunderous, have a read. It’s also NOT equal in sturdiness to the guard. For multiple reasons I’ve outlined above and you have declined to read. You sir, should get over YOURself.

Just for you, for clarity’s sake I decided to restate the reasons here:
*Force taunts*
-challenge taunt duration is double that of thunderous, and the cooldown is only 15s longer.
-Biting edge should not be considered since it’s a severe handicap.
-Maul is a 30s cd frontal channeled attack

*Sturdiness*
-You keep going on about the Worthy Adversary trait that provides +20% morale, and +30% armor while in bear form. This is a terrible trait. It skews the balancing and creates this perception of a strong role. What it does realistically is gate half our abilities behind man form. Dropping into man form reduces healing through the perceived morale drop. The armor buff prevents properly balancing our armor values. You forget that Beo has no shield. This causes us to lose out on IIRC:
50k armor, 10k Tmit, 15k Crit Def.

-Next, the 5% Tmit difference you brushed aside. This is the equivalent of taking 17% more tactical damage than a guardian. There goes the 20% morale bonus.

From what you’ve said so far, it sounds like you’re just upset that a Beo in bear form has higher morale than your guardian

I don't know how to respond to this. So much misinformation.

[dsltn07]

I don't know how to respond to this. So much misinformation.

Could you help me out by replying which information is wrong?

[Mukor]

Nerfing a class because it has two possible roles is a terrible argument. Further, I made a strong case for challenge vs maul/thunderous, have a read. It’s also NOT equal in sturdiness to the guard. For multiple reasons I’ve outlined above and you have declined to read. You sir, should get over YOURself.

Just for you, for clarity’s sake I decided to restate the reasons here:
*Force taunts*
-challenge taunt duration is double that of thunderous, and the cooldown is only 15s longer.
-Biting edge should not be considered since it’s a severe handicap.
-Maul is a 30s cd frontal channeled attack

*Sturdiness*
-You keep going on about the Worthy Adversary trait that provides +20% morale, and +30% armor while in bear form. This is a terrible trait. It skews the balancing and creates this perception of a strong role. What it does realistically is gate half our abilities behind man form. Dropping into man form reduces healing through the perceived morale drop. The armor buff prevents properly balancing our armor values. You forget that Beo has no shield. This causes us to lose out on IIRC:
50k armor, 10k Tmit, 15k Crit Def. (Roughly the equivalent of 12-13 empowered essences)

-Next, the 5% Tmit difference you brushed aside. This is the equivalent of taking 17% more tactical damage than a guardian. There goes the 20% morale bonus.

From what you’ve said so far, it sounds like you’re just upset that a Beo in bear form has higher morale than your guardian

Duration of taunts don’t really matter anymore. Except for cases in which a foe is only tankable with force (bg id1) for example.
You taunt for the copy multiplier and for this it doesn't matter if you've 5 or 10s force.

[dsltn07]

Duration of taunts don’t really matter anymore. Except for cases in which a foe is only tankable with force (bg id1) for example.
You taunt for the copy multiplier and for this it doesn't matter if you've 5 or 10s force.

I disagree, 5 seconds is a very short duration to build agro on multiple targets before champs and RKs do a large amount of aoe damage.
The additional 5 seconds on challenge is extremely convenient, I’m sure you wouldn’t realize how much simpler it is. Remember that on Beo range for thunder is 10m. Pulling and waiting for agro copy is not safe or reliable.

[Iluvata]

I disagree, 5 seconds is a very short duration to build agro on multiple targets before champs and RKs do a large amount of aoe damage.
The additional 5 seconds on challenge is extremely convenient, I’m sure you wouldn’t realize how much simpler it is. Remember that on Beo range for thunder is 10m. Pulling and waiting for agro copy is not safe or reliable.

During that extra 5 seconds, you cannot possibly build as much threat on a target as a champ or RK, so you will lose it if you are forced to challenge too early. Unlike a beorning who can go into a relentless maul to copy threat again or pop TH and then go into man form to AOE taunt. Plus the relentless maul taunt will re-copy threat over those 5 seconds, meaning it is just like you force taunted multiple times, most importantly once at the start of maul and once at the end, 5 seconds later.

On top of this, claw swipe is a really powerful and easily spammable threat builder compared to the guardian having to work his way up to shield-smash, during which time he may have already lost aggro. Sure you can Vex in that time, but its not enough in most cases. War-chant also helps a ton, but it is no claw-swipe.

As a beorning, we can Thunderous Roar pretty early a fight, then secure threat with maul. As a guard, you have to time challenge perfectly or you are out of luck.

[TheRedfox]

-Next, the 5% Tmit difference you brushed aside. This is the equivalent of taking 17% more tactical damage than a guardian. There goes the 20% morale bonus.

While I have tanks, I mostly run my healers in groups. People that ignore stuff like 5% Tmit make my life harder (The same would be true with the 5% Pmit bonus on Beos over guards on some fights). Heck, there's stuff I can keep wardens up through (with their even lower mits) but I have to push my gear and skill harder just to do it. So this idea that a huge morale pool is ideal, at the expense of mits, bugs me. As long as you're not getting one shotted then the stress is moved off the tank and onto the healer to bring you back up before the next hit. Large pools with bigger spikes just forces the need for higher HPS, so the argument then moves over the healer forums for buffs/nerfs...

[Iluvata]

While I have tanks, I mostly run my healers in groups. People that ignore stuff like 5% Tmit make my life harder (The same would be true with the 5% Pmit bonus on Beos over guards on some fights). Heck, there's stuff I can keep wardens up through (with their even lower mits) but I have to push my gear and skill harder just to do it. So this idea that a huge morale pool is ideal, at the expense of mits, bugs me. As long as you're not getting one shotted then the stress is moved off the tank and onto the healer to bring you back up before the next hit. Large pools with bigger spikes just forces the need for higher HPS, so the argument then moves over the healer forums for buffs/nerfs...

Calculation-wise, the excess morale pool of a bear more than offsets the 5% mits. I don't know why people are having a hard time understanding that.
I'm not saying take morale over mits, but the Bear gets a ton of both which is kind of excessive.

[dsltn07]

During that extra 5 seconds, you cannot possibly build as much threat on a target as a champ or RK, so you will lose it if you are forced to challenge too early. Unlike a beorning who can go into a relentless maul to copy threat again or pop TH and then go into man form to AOE taunt. Plus the relentless maul taunt will re-copy threat over those 5 seconds, meaning it is just like you force taunted multiple times, most importantly once at the start of maul and once at the end, 5 seconds later.

On top of this, claw swipe is a really powerful and easily spammable threat builder compared to the guardian having to work his way up to shield-smash, during which time he may have already lost aggro. Sure you can Vex in that time, but its not enough in most cases. War-chant also helps a ton, but if it is no claw-swipe.

As a beorning, we can Thunderous Roar pretty early a fight, then secure threat with maul. As a guard, you have to time challenge perfectly or you are out of luck.

So I’m guessing your proposal is to remove maul and leave thunder range at 10m? That’s fair right? Or maybe just remove both. Bear can trait biting edge if they need aoe. /s.

Double duration on challenge effectively does the same thing as thunderous and maul combined with one skill. The one thing you lose out on is the ending agro copy, but it also buys you more time to catch up without the risk of losing any targets due to range issues.

[dsltn07]

Calculation-wise, the excess morale pool of a bear more than offsets the 5% mits. I don't know why people are having a hard time understanding that.
I'm not saying take morale over mits, but the Bear gets a ton of both which is kind of excessive.

5% less mits is 17% more damage taken. That means 17% more morale goes away with every instance of damage. In the realm of 5 mobs doing 50k each, that’s an added difference of 42.5k damage per set of attacks, going up as you add more mobs. Think whelps and drakes, that’s easily 10 mobs. So, doubled for 10 mobs we are looking at somewhere in the realm of one attack per 2 seconds, that’s 42.5k more damage taken per second than a guardian with just the 5% mit difference.
You want to add nerfs on top?
You think an extra 40k max morale over a guard is going to save a Beo from an extra 20-40k TPS? Show me a healer that’ll choose a Beo for that situation.
Add to that how insufficient rush is compared to sprint as an emergency skill....

[Mukor]

I disagree, 5 seconds is a very short duration to build agro on multiple targets before champs and RKs do a large amount of aoe damage.
The additional 5 seconds on challenge is extremely convenient, I’m sure you wouldn’t realize how much simpler it is. Remember that on Beo range for thunder is 10m. Pulling and waiting for agro copy is not safe or reliable.

Then you use the taunts wrong. You don't taunt am generate aggro in this duration.
You build in a race vs the dps and if you loose, stun that they generate more and after that you taunt and copy multiply their generated aggro. If a dpser does 10% morale or more before He switch and you taunt, you've the aggro until the end except a reset or you die.
So more taunts are better cause you can räumt earlierand if it is overwriten you can taunt a second time.

[dsltn07]

Then you use the taunts wrong. You don't taunt am generate aggro in this duration.
You build in a race vs the dps and if you loose, stun that they generate more and after that you taunt and copy multiply their generated aggro. If a dpser does 10% morale or more before He switch and you taunt, you've the aggro until the end except a reset or you die.
So more taunts are better cause you can räumt earlierand if it is overwriten you can taunt a second time.

You cannot wait on initial pull to throw thunderous like you can with challenge for the copy. The range is too short.

[Mukor]

You cannot wait on initial pull to throw thunderous like you can with challenge for the copy. The range is too short.

As said aoe aggro you loose only vs melee so you can use your meleetaunt.
And that the range aoe taunt is enough for force the other could be threat only generating skills.

[dsltn07]

As said aoe aggro you loose only vs melee so you can use your meleetaunt.
And that the range aoe taunt is enough for force the other could be threat only generating skills.

There’s already no reason to use biting edge, you want to remove the force taunt from it? It’ll be more useless but that’s fine. Then you want to remove maul force taunt too? Leave us with a 5s, 10m aoe taunt? That’s literally half as effective as challenge in range and duration.

It’s not exactly logical to reply saying “If you lose aggro then use your melee taunt skill” directly followed by: ”You have too many taunts and some should be removed.”

Heck, this topic should say: “Please buff tank Beo, Guardians are spoiled.”

[Iluvata]

There’s already no reason to use biting edge, you want to remove the force taunt from it? It’ll be more useless but that’s fine. Then you want to remove maul force taunt too? Leave us with a 5s, 10m aoe taunt? That’s literally half as effective as challenge in range and duration.

It’s not exactly logical to reply saying “If you lose aggro then use your melee taunt skill” directly followed by: ”You have too many taunts and some should be removed.”

Heck, this topic should say: “Please buff tank Beo, Guardians are spoiled.”

Biting Edge is not useless.

I forget that a lot of people here do not have maxed end-game stats. Let me shed some insight into why I am able to keep hearten and biting edge up at all times.

With maxed gear like I have, I can switch to man form and still nearly be capped on mits. So keeping Hearten up is simple. And this makes Biting Edge a very viable taunt end-game. Even with Beorning taunt nerfs, they will still have better taunts than the captains taunts. The Bear would still make a fine secondary tank.

You should NEVER be losing aggro as a Beorning tank if you are rotating correctly. Its OP.


One more thing. Guardians need to walk into pulls with a CD popped. Beorning's don't (partly because they have to save TH), but we survive just fine. Hence survivability is better than the guardians, on average.

[Happychappy]

Can guardians Tank? Yes
Do Guardians get taken into raids as Tanks? yes
Are Beornings picked over Guardians as tanks? No
Can Beornings tank? yes
Do Beornings get taken into raids as tanks? yes

All seems good to me.

Does it really matter who has the biggest ##### when they both get the job done. :P

[Mukor]

There’s already no reason to use biting edge, you want to remove the force taunt from it? It’ll be more useless but that’s fine. Then you want to remove maul force taunt too? Leave us with a 5s, 10m aoe taunt? That’s literally half as effective as challenge in range and duration.

It’s not exactly logical to reply saying “If you lose aggro then use your melee taunt skill” directly followed by: ”You have too many taunts and some should be removed.”

Heck, this topic should say: “Please buff tank Beo, Guardians are spoiled.”

I said the range aoe can stay.
But if you want to keep all aoe taunts the cd of challenge must get reduced back to its 30s.
But anyway with three force aoes each noob can keep the aggro, there is no skill needed.
just taunt 5s dmg on them, loos copy multiply with the second if this is overwritten use the third and if in anycase this should be ovberwriten the first would be free again.
And in any other aspect they´re equal in their advantages. one have more phy mits the other more tac mits .... .

[dsltn07]

Biting Edge is not useless.

I forget that a lot of people here do not have maxed end-game stats. Let me shed some insight into why I am able to keep hearten and biting edge up at all times.

With maxed gear like I have, I can switch to man form and still nearly be capped on mits. So keeping Hearten up is simple. And this makes Biting Edge a very viable taunt end-game. Even with Beorning taunt nerfs, they will still have better taunts than the captains taunts. The Bear would still make a fine secondary tank.

You should NEVER be losing aggro as a Beorning tank if you are rotating correctly. Its OP.


One more thing. Guardians need to walk into pulls with a CD popped. Beorning's don't (partly because they have to save TH), but we survive just fine. Hence survivability is better than the guardians, on average.

You wasted nine essence slots on capping man form Pmit? So that you can use a limited target melee force attack skill and hearten?

Your point about survivability makes zero sense. None.

You also missed where I was replying to Mukor about our taunts. He was implying that all but thunderous should be removed, so I replied asking how he intended to hold agro using exclusively thunderous.

There are some pulls that require starting with TH up.

In short, you can keep saying that I’m just a bad player because I disagree with you, but that does not make you right, nor your logic sound.

[Mukor]

You wasted nine essence slots on capping man form Pmit? So that you can use a limited target melee force attack skill and hearten?

Your point about survivability makes zero sense. None.

You also missed where I was replying to Mukor about our taunts. He was implying that all but thunderous should be removed, so I replied asking how he intended to hold agro using exclusively thunderous.

There are some pulls that require starting with TH up.

In short, you can keep saying that I’m just a bad player because I disagree with you, but that does not make you right, nor your logic sound.

As every other tank, run into the group, do normal aoe, aggro switch, stun, further dmg when they move aoe taunt ( in the best case 10% of the foe morals are lost).
And with tr you´re even not limited on targets as other tanks are.
So the question is for what do you need more?
And starting with a panic isn´t beo exclusive. It´s more or less standard that the healers don´t need to heal from the beginning that the first touch is from the tank.
Furthermore I didn´t say it should be your only taunt it just should be your only aoe taunt (vr can be keeped).

[dsltn07]

As every other tank, run into the group, do normal aoe, aggro switch, stun, further dmg when they move aoe taunt ( in the best case 10% of the foe morals are lost).
And with tr you´re even not limited on targets as other tanks are.
So the question is for what do you need more?
And starting with a panic isn´t beo exclusive. It´s more or less standard that the healers don´t need to heal from the beginning that the first touch is from the tank.
Furthermore I didn´t say it should be your only taunt it just should be your only aoe taunt (vr can be keeped).

Regarding the panic I was replying to Ilu who said that Beo never needs to use TH, which means that it is better than guardian at surviving. You guys really need to read each others’ posts before continuing to try and prove me wrong, you’re only contradicting your posts at this point.