[Vales Spoilers] After 12 years, LOTRO finally crossed a lore bridge I can't follow

[Forohir]

In a quest called "The Stolen Gift", Radagast recounts the origin of both the Gauredain and the Ungoledain. The latter actually turn into giant spiders while fighting you.

Once there was a group of Men who respected the land and nature, and saw the beauty of the mountains and the vales between them. I was unlike them, of course, being a Wizard, but I did see some of myself in them. More than a little! I gave them a gift: the gift of skin-changing. I taught them how to use it, and as they practiced the art they became closer to nature. They were a good people, and they remained so to this day: the Beornings of the Vales of Anduin. These are your forbears, [Beorning PC]. Ha! This is not a time for jesting, forgive me! But still it is true. Your ancestors mastered the art of skin-changing, and used it to make safe the mountains and the valleys, and I was most glad for them.

But other Men became jealous of the gift. They captured one of the skin-changers, and tortured him, and in the end he gave away the secret art. These evil ones were driven mad by this new power, a power they were never intended to wield. These were the Gauredain, men of the wolf, and the Ungoledain, men of the spider.

I should have been more careful, [Beorning PC]. I repented of the gift, for once it was stolen I could do nothing. Now the Woodmen face a peril of my own creation. We must find their encampment and protect them from the leader of the Ungoledain.

I have no problem with Radagast being involved in the origin of the Beornings. Heck, I might even accept that there's an evil counter to the Beornings that changes into something else. But the above just makes no sense for several reasons:

1. If skin-changing is a skill that can simply be "taught" (whether willingly or because you're being tortured), then why don't more people know it than Beorn's literal family line? Why don't they teach it to the Wilderfolk, so they can defend themselves, or the elves?
2. If the Ungoledain learned the "secret art" and used it to turn into spiders, then why couldn't Beornings use it to turn into anything but bears? Why not Eagles, or otters, or boars, or any other animals?
3. Gauredain are called out here, and yet at no time have Gauredain ever been presented as skin-changers. No Gauredain has ever become a wolf in-game. This was always an impressive level of restraint and creativity Turbine/SSG showed. They got to have wolf-men without actually having werewolves.

For these primary 3 reasons, the above just doesn't make sense, even with itself.


LOTRO itself presents every Beorning as literally part of Beorn's family, which is consistent with the text in the Hobbit. They all look distinctly different from every other human, and they all look related, and playing as a Beorning in the Vales, every Beorning addresses you as a *blood relative*. But then Radagast makes it sound like anyone can learn, and that it can be into other animals besides bears. This just introduces a host of inconsistencies and questions.


Now I suppose one could say Ragadast gave the "gift" to Beorn, and it was passed down through his line (not through being "taught" but by being intrinsic in his bloodline), and at some point some sorcerers of Dol Guldur captured a Beorning and, by studying its fea/hroa discovered the secret of Radagast's gift, and figured out how to pivot it to spiders. I could probably accept that.


Still, at least when a human turns into a bear, they retain the same number of limbs/fingers/eyes/ears, whereas a spider you have to grow all sorts of new parts, including a butt-rope.


This whole thing just seems poorly thought out. And I say this as someone who has totally bought into and praised all of Turbine/SSG's lore expansion in the past.

[Dosiere]

It was strange. Would have been far cooler IMO had it been a relative of Beorn, a brother say, who went all dark and nasty. Maybe he could change into something else, like a nasty big wolf if they didn’t want it to be bears.

[Elmagor]

In a quest called "The Stolen Gift", Radagast recounts the origin of both the Gauredain and the Ungoledain. The latter actually turn into giant spiders while fighting you.

Once there was a group of Men who respected the land and nature, and saw the beauty of the mountains and the vales between them. I was unlike them, of course, being a Wizard, but I did see some of myself in them. More than a little! I gave them a gift: the gift of skin-changing. I taught them how to use it, and as they practiced the art they became closer to nature. They were a good people, and they remained so to this day: the Beornings of the Vales of Anduin. These are your forbears, [Beorning PC]. Ha! This is not a time for jesting, forgive me! But still it is true. Your ancestors mastered the art of skin-changing, and used it to make safe the mountains and the valleys, and I was most glad for them.

But other Men became jealous of the gift. They captured one of the skin-changers, and tortured him, and in the end he gave away the secret art. These evil ones were driven mad by this new power, a power they were never intended to wield. These were the Gauredain, men of the wolf, and the Ungoledain, men of the spider.

I should have been more careful, [Beorning PC]. I repented of the gift, for once it was stolen I could do nothing. Now the Woodmen face a peril of my own creation. We must find their encampment and protect them from the leader of the Ungoledain.

I have no problem with Radagast being involved in the origin of the Beornings. Heck, I might even accept that there's an evil counter to the Beornings that changes into something else. But the above just makes no sense for several reasons:

1. If skin-changing is a skill that can simply be "taught" (whether willingly or because you're being tortured), then why don't more people know it than Beorn's literal family line? Why don't they teach it to the Wilderfolk, so they can defend themselves, or the elves?
2. If the Ungoledain learned the "secret art" and used it to turn into spiders, then why couldn't Beornings use it to turn into anything but bears? Why not Eagles, or otters, or boars, or any other animals?
3. Gauredain are called out here, and yet at no time have Gauredain ever been presented as skin-changers. No Gauredain has ever become a wolf in-game. This was always an impressive level of restraint and creativity Turbine/SSG showed. They got to have wolf-men without actually having werewolves.

For these primary 3 reasons, the above just doesn't make sense, even with itself.


LOTRO itself presents every Beorning as literally part of Beorn's family, which is consistent with the text in the Hobbit. They all look distinctly different from every other human, and they all look related, and playing as a Beorning in the Vales, every Beorning addresses you as a *blood relative*. But then Radagast makes it sound like anyone can learn, and that it can be into other animals besides bears. This just introduces a host of inconsistencies and questions.


Now I suppose one could say Ragadast gave the "gift" to Beorn, and it was passed down through his line (not through being "taught" but by being intrinsic in his bloodline), and at some point some sorcerers of Dol Guldur captured a Beorning and, by studying its fea/hroa discovered the secret of Radagast's gift, and figured out how to pivot it to spiders. I could probably accept that.


Still, at least when a human turns into a bear, they retain the same number of limbs/fingers/eyes/ears, whereas a spider you have to grow all sorts of new parts, including a butt-rope.


This whole thing just seems poorly thought out. And I say this as someone who has totally bought into and praised all of Turbine/SSG's lore expansion in the past.

In u23, we don't have any Ungoledain changing into spider, now in u24 we have Ungoledain changing into spider. I don't see any problems introducing some Gauredain changing into wolf in u25 or u26.

May be not anyone can get that gift, only few people can do it. We don't have thousands of beornings, ungoledains or gauedains in the game.

[Scenario]

Not addressing your specific concern (because I am not the story or lore guy ), but a piece of LOTRO Trivia:

- the Gauredain were originally intended to be able to be skin changers when we introduced them WAY WAY back in Evendim. Unfortunately, at the time, we did not have the tech necessary to pull it off so instead they were introduced as a group of Wolf-worshippers.

[Valakircka]

It was strange. Would have been far cooler IMO had it been a relative of Beorn, a brother say, who went all dark and nasty. Maybe he could change into something else, like a nasty big wolf if they didn’t want it to be bears.

if thats the case we should have seen them changing but this has never happen in game yet.........
since we met them 1st time at the west shores of evendim, they had a company of wolves and dressed in wolf skins but never changing into a wolf!
nope this thing is totally wrong!
from the books i understand that beornings are a race of men, very old ofcorse, that has the gift of skinchanging
it is written that they r only a few! nothing is written about skinchanging is a skill that can be tought by a wizard!
if the wizards having powers like this the books will had a totally different approaching!
why not more of the free people havent learned the skinchanging n having more posibilities against the orc, warg, etc. ???
no guredain are not skinchangers n this approach is totally wrong n really against the lore!!!
good job ssg......

[Valakircka]

Not addressing your specific concern (because I am not the story or lore guy ), but a piece of LOTRO Trivia:

- the Gauredain were originally intended to be able to be skin changers when we introduced them WAY WAY back in Evendim. Unfortunately, at the time, we did not have the tech necessary to pull it off so instead they were introduced as a group of Wolf-worshippers.

anyway wolfmen or spidermen or any kind of Xmen is totally wrong n against the lore!!!
Tolkien is writting only about the beornings as skin changer
basically he is writting only about Beorn!
tbh i dont have a prob if you introduse an enemy skin changing race,
but i really dont like this Radagast tought them the skill of skinchanging!
why only into bear??? why not a mountain lion, a deadly snake? even into a dragon?
pick n animal, there r plenty of them in the world......
if this is a skill why not changing into anything anyone wants???
even the evil men, only wolfmen n spidermen tribes???
again, Radagast teaching the skill is totally out of lore!

[OldMadeOfLions]

from the books i understand that beornings are a race of men, very old ofcorse, that has the gift of skinchanging
it is written that they r only a few! nothing is written about skinchanging is a skill that can be tought by a wizard!

again, Radagast teaching the skill is totally out of lore!

"And that message brought me hope. For Saruman the White is the greatest of my order. Radagast is, of course, a worthy Wizard, a master of shapes and changes of hue; and he has much lore of herbs and beasts, and birds are especially his friends." - Gandalf, _The Fellowship of the Ring_

MoL

[Palentian]

I don't know. I can see the point of it. Look at our own history. The Egyptians of today bear little resemblance to the Egyptians of 3000 years ago. Their language and as I understand many customs are different than they were. As far as the different animals, look at Native American lore. Many tribes felt a bond with a certain animals. Maybe Beorn's line were a tribe like that originally. They identified with the bear, so why would they change into anything else?

Going with the assumption that the Gauredain were a similar tribe that identified with the wolf. I can see how not everyone in the tribe could master this ability. They could very easily become a sort of worshiper or priesthood of those that could. That priesthood spread as far as Forochel, but the main tribe stayed near the place of their origin. Tribes tend to guard their secrets pretty heavily. Especially if it gives them an advantage over other tribes.

The wizards tended to work against Sauron in their own ways. It makes a certain sense that Radagast would be the one to teach someone skin walking. LOL

Now, that being said, I still think the Beornings should never have been brought to the game. I just think in this case, the lore may not be a shaky as it sounds. But what do I know. I'm just zis guy.

[Altair6]

"Radagast is, of course, a worthy Wizard, a master of shapes and changes of hue;

I always thought that meant he was good at jigsaws.

Anyway. On a serious note, I'm in the "it's stretching" (almost to the Moon, stretching) camp. Did a serious "Hmm... ok." when I got to this bit in the story. I'll just pretend it didn't happen and carry on regardless.

Some things are best left unexplained, I find.

[Elflord410]

"And that message brought me hope. For Saruman the White is the greatest of my order. Radagast is, of course, a worthy Wizard, a master of shapes and changes of hue; and he has much lore of herbs and beasts, and birds are especially his friends." - Gandalf, _The Fellowship of the Ring_

MoL

MoL, that's a BIG stretch of the lore. I have to be with the OP on this one, this is just a lore bridge too far. Since "... birds are especially his friends." does that mean that Radagast will grant us Giant Eagle flying mounts as well?

[gildhur]

Imagine playing alongside Rune-keepers for 11 years and thinking this paragraph of quest text is the last straw.

[Pontin_Finnberry]

I saw this when reading the quest text, and this surprised me the most in the vales, I have to agree its a bit of a lore stretch, but see nothing wrong with it either, as we know almost nothing of Beorn's origin and nothing about other skin changers and very little is known about what they can do. though I don't think its something that can be learned.

the quote "a master of shapes and changes of hue" the way i read that is that's Radagast as a wizard who was sent to middle earth along with 4 other Istar, i don't think he can just give out his powers to learn. also Radagast just simply knows about beast and herbs just like anyone else but way more learned in it, and perhaps transform into a beast? who knows. however i can kind of see him teaching them how to speak or know the language of Beast understanding them.

yes a bit of a lore stretch in the story but still fun anyway.

[LabadalofDorlomin]

"And that message brought me hope. For Saruman the White is the greatest of my order. Radagast is, of course, a worthy Wizard, a master of shapes and changes of hue; and he has much lore of herbs and beasts, and birds are especially his friends." - Gandalf, _The Fellowship of the Ring_

MoL

But put into context by what Beorn says in the Hobbit when asked about Radagast by Gandalf....

“Yes; not a bad fellow as wizards go, I believe. I used to see him now and again,” said Beorn.

Not exactly the way one would talk about the person who had given his lineage what he had if this is to be believed...

I agree... Beornings were as big a mistake as rune keepers but they're here now and there isn't any going back but stop stretching these abominations to the max...

what next?

Are we going to come across all the skin changers whose skills mutated and find them all in "Xavier's School for Gifted Youngsters" ?

[OldMadeOfLions]

The various quests involving Radagast and the Ungoledain aren't my quests, but I do love diving into discussions like this so why let that stop me?

Our stock in trade has almost always been to find gaps in the text of LotR (and the Hobbit!) where we can find interesting places to put story -- consider the tiniest mentions of Angmar or Forochel, from which we crafted entire storylines! Radagast being friendly with the Beornings, living in this part of the world, being a Wizard whose powers include "master(y) of shapes" who is noted for his kinship with beasts... I find the possibility pretty compelling. This isn't to say, "Ah ha! We figured it out! This is the TRUE SECRET ORIGIN!" Instead, this is just the sort of connection that we've enjoyed exploring since the very beginning. I'd have to go back and look more closely at the quest, but my understanding isn't that Radagast taught the art of skin-changing to Beorn himself, but rather to a distant and forgotten forebear (wink!) that led eventually to the passing-down of the skill to Beorn and Grimbeorn. I prefer to think of the art as a mostly involuntary skill, and whatever trick the Ungoledain learned from their captive would just be the last 1% of what they needed -- surely their dark and corruptive arts brought them most of the way. Radagast might be beating himself up a little more than he deserves, but he's a well-meaning sort and feels badly about it.

Since "... birds are especially his friends." does that mean that Radagast will grant us Giant Eagle flying mounts as well?

If I wanted to give you Eagle mounts, I wouldn't have to point to this line to do it. It's not the fact of flying on Eagles that I find troubling, since that happens in the books more than once; it's that the Eagles are noble, sentient creatures, and they don't come at your call. I would much prefer a system where Eagles come and interrupt the thing you're doing, picking you up and carrying you away to help THEM with the important thing they want done, regardless of what you have to say about it. Now that's an Eagle mount I can get behind!

I always thought that meant he was good at jigsaws.

This is also a good explanation for "master of shapes," and I wish it would come into play! Maybe Radagast and Grimbeorn can take some time out to assemble a jigsaw puzzle at the Beorninghus.

we know almost nothing of Beorn's origin and nothing about other skin changers and very little is known about what they can do.

It's true. It's an intriguing space for expansion, which is exactly the sort of thing we designers love to poke at, and what we've done from the beginning.

Not exactly the way one would talk about the person who had given his lineage what he had if this is to be believed...

Beorn, noted conversationalist? I think Beorn is pretty well established as saying what he wants to say, when he wants to say it. He's not exactly overflowing with sentimentality.

MoL

[gildhur]

If I wanted to give you Eagle mounts, I wouldn't have to point to this line to do it. It's not the fact of flying on Eagles that I find troubling, since that happens in the books more than once; it's that the Eagles are noble, sentient creatures, and they don't come at your call. I would much prefer a system where Eagles come and interrupt the thing you're doing, picking you up and carrying you away to help THEM with the important thing they want done, regardless of what you have to say about it. Now that's an Eagle mount I can get behind!

We already have an Eagle stable-master in the Vales now.

[Turin347]

I have no problem with Radagast being involved in the origin of the Beornings. Heck, I might even accept that there's an evil counter to the Beornings that changes into something else. But the above just makes no sense for several reasons:

1. If skin-changing is a skill that can simply be "taught" (whether willingly or because you're being tortured), then why don't more people know it than Beorn's literal family line? Why don't they teach it to the Wilderfolk, so they can defend themselves, or the elves?
2. If the Ungoledain learned the "secret art" and used it to turn into spiders, then why couldn't Beornings use it to turn into anything but bears? Why not Eagles, or otters, or boars, or any other animals?
3. Gauredain are called out here, and yet at no time have Gauredain ever been presented as skin-changers. No Gauredain has ever become a wolf in-game. This was always an impressive level of restraint and creativity Turbine/SSG showed. They got to have wolf-men without actually having werewolves.

For these primary 3 reasons, the above just doesn't make sense, even with itself.


LOTRO itself presents every Beorning as literally part of Beorn's family, which is consistent with the text in the Hobbit. They all look distinctly different from every other human, and they all look related, and playing as a Beorning in the Vales, every Beorning addresses you as a *blood relative*. But then Radagast makes it sound like anyone can learn, and that it can be into other animals besides bears. This just introduces a host of inconsistencies and questions.


Now I suppose one could say Ragadast gave the "gift" to Beorn, and it was passed down through his line (not through being "taught" but by being intrinsic in his bloodline), and at some point some sorcerers of Dol Guldur captured a Beorning and, by studying its fea/hroa discovered the secret of Radagast's gift, and figured out how to pivot it to spiders. I could probably accept that.


Still, at least when a human turns into a bear, they retain the same number of limbs/fingers/eyes/ears, whereas a spider you have to grow all sorts of new parts, including a butt-rope.

I'd like to speak a word on the matter.

First of all, I'd like to point out that the way the lore decision SSG made on the subject of skin-changing is surprisingly Tolkien-ish. I dont know about the OP knowledge of the lores and mechanics on which Tolkien built his Legendarium, but we had some exemples that show that the path of "a gift a powerful being can give and that can be stolen" is really a Tolkienian feature.


As first exemple I want to quote the part of The Fall of Gondolin:

Then arose Thorndor, King of Eagles, and he loved not Melko, for Melko had caught many of his kindred and chained them against sharp rocks to squeeze from them the magic words whereby he might learn to fly [...]; and when they would not tell he cut off their wings and sought to fashion therefrom a mighty pair for his use, but it availed not.

--J.R.R. Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien (ed.), The Book of Lost Tales Part Two, "The Fall of Gondolin", p. 103

In this passage it is clear that there were peculiar things that could be taught to worthy beings (in this case from Manwe to the Great Eagles for the flying), gifts in the shape of spells or magics that could be passed to others. This quoted exemple is very similar to the one we had with the beornings, and the handling of the beorning being tortured so that they surrendered their "magic gift" is a really good scale down to the men weaknesses, while the Eagles never surrendered their gift.



The second exemple is in The Tale of Tinúviel:

So was that in the end weariness and hunger and fear prevailed upon that proud cat [...] to reveal the secret of the cats and the spell that Melko had entrusted to him; and those were words of magic whereby the stones of his evil house were held together, and whereby he held all beasts of the catfolk under his sway, filling them with an evil power beyond their nature [...]. When therefore he had told it Huan laughed till the woods rang, for he knew that the days of the power of the cats were over. [...] The magic of Melko was fallen from them.

----J.R.R. Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien (ed.), The Book of Lost Tales Part Two, "The Tale of Tinúviel", p.28-29

In this passage we read that Morgoth had entrusted the cats with some kind of magic-wordish gift, making them like werecats of great power, and that this gift could in the end be revoked.

A similar exemple is written in the Silmarillion that we all know, when the later version Lúthien crushed the tower of Sauron upon the Tol Sirion just by knowing the magic words that were bound to the soveregnity over the place. (The Silmarillion, "Of Beren and of Lúthien", p. 227 approx)

---

All of this as introduction to say that the choices about the "Radagast gifting the skin-changing magic ability" is really Tolkienish on various, deep levels, and that me, as a proud Tolkien-lover, I love the deep knowledge the quest designer had of the "Tolkien's ways to lore".

After this introduction, I could explain to myself very well about the matter around the Gauredain and the Ungoledain. They tried to steal the Gift (spell?) entrusted to the beornings, and they succeded.
The quest (and Radagast) says that they were not thought to receive such power, and whatever characteristic Radagast found in the beornings with his "Istari Knowledge" such that he believed they could handle the power he was a master of (as quoted by MadeofLion), was it loyalty, goodness, courage, etc (all characters that in the Tolkien production have a bigger value than just "behaviours"), it's clear that those -edain had not. And as Radagast explains, this was the very source of their corruption.[/INDENT]



Now, with this quest line I could explain (after 9 years of playing) why the Gauredain and then the Ungoledain were in primis so tall and powerful, animal-tamers and kind of odd. Simply, being men and thus too weak to resist external powers not meant for them, they were corrupted and twisted.

-First of all I guess they run mad or very near to this, since they isolated from the world and their society is questionable at most and with they never had real purposes. Probably they were groups of men that were worshipping the animals they turned into, or they had some kind of religion around them, so that when they went mad but somehow acquiring that "gift", they deepened their worshippings and were able to turn into the animals they based their culture around, but being too deviated to wield the Power and control any other shape. The fact that we had no shape-changing prior to U24 is simply a technical limitation they now have overcome, and I'm happy with this

-Second they had physical changes, so that they could communicate with the animals they were nearer to and they grew stronger, taller, but hunchbacked and ugly (sorry for the bodyshaming -edain, nothing personal).

-Third, over time they lost part of their umanity and social behaviour, and this would explain why their presence and quest-lines are kinda out of place if those groups are considered simply as weird men.

Of course, the beornings could control their mental health upon receiving the gift because of the qualities Radagast found in them, but being men it's very unlikely one could shape the magic to turn into whatever animal he wants, and it's very improbable they could handle the very foundation of the spell in order to be able to tell it rightfully to others (like it was for the cats under Telvido, they were Werecats but only under the power of their prince, and not able to give away the power to others; they were under the spell influence but not able to shape it because of their "lesser" nature)



All of this said, after having some thoughs on the matter, I personally was amazed how deep knowledge of Tolkien had the person who designed this lore and how much respectful of the Tolkienian mood was all this web of relationships-explainations-subtle magic aimed to explain the old-created deviations of those men-tribes.

This whole thing just seems poorly thought out. And I say this as someone who has totally bought into and praised all of Turbine/SSG's lore expansion in the past.

This whole thing just seems too much well written, and I thanks the SSG for such an handling of the Tolkien's legacy


--Duf of Ark

[auximenes]

First of all, I'd like to point out that the way the lore decision SSG made on the subject of skin-changing is surprisingly Tolkien-ish. I dont know about the OP knowledge of the lores and mechanics on which Tolkien built his Legendarium, but we had some exemples that show that the path of "a gift a powerful being can give and that can be stolen" is really a Tolkienian feature.

See: Prometheus
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prometheus

[LabadalofDorlomin]

Thanks for burying this thread... it took me an age to find it again... I suppose there is a way to search for threads on which you have commented or track them but not that I know without subscribing and that, if it turns out to be a juicy thread can batter my inbox.

I guess it is in its correct spot due to potential spoilers though.

Back to point... I don't much care for the new plot lines probably because I think the whole concept of skin changers was a mistake by Tolkien.
Far too much "Fantastic story magazine" for my liking, although it could have been this plotline that inspired a lot of that series 13 years after the Hobbit was released.

I think Tolkien' open displays of magic and magical'ness was kept to a nice simmering under the hood limit with a few poor exception and this possibly the worst.

So, for me to expand on this is not my cup of tea... Sorry

Please lets get back to the good old kill 10 bears for their hides and post them to the Beorninghus

[gildhur]

I finally finished the Vales last night (minus dailies), including the full Ungoledain quest line, and I love it even more than I did from just the quest text. The cloud of poison transformation from man to spider is gorgeous (much better than even the Beorning animation tbh). If someone could find the time to go back and change the Gauredain quests and animations to make them skin-changers, that would be amazing.

SIDEBAR: The Ungoledain, being somewhat copied from Gauredain code, still use Gauredain vocal sounds. The wolf howl when using certain skills is particularly immersion-breaking.

[Forohir]

The various quests involving Radagast and the Ungoledain aren't my quests, but I do love diving into discussions like this so why let that stop me?

Our stock in trade has almost always been to find gaps in the text of LotR (and the Hobbit!) where we can find interesting places to put story -- consider the tiniest mentions of Angmar or Forochel, from which we crafted entire storylines! Radagast being friendly with the Beornings, living in this part of the world, being a Wizard whose powers include "master(y) of shapes" who is noted for his kinship with beasts... I find the possibility pretty compelling. This isn't to say, "Ah ha! We figured it out! This is the TRUE SECRET ORIGIN!" Instead, this is just the sort of connection that we've enjoyed exploring since the very beginning. I'd have to go back and look more closely at the quest, but my understanding isn't that Radagast taught the art of skin-changing to Beorn himself, but rather to a distant and forgotten forebear (wink!) that led eventually to the passing-down of the skill to Beorn and Grimbeorn. I prefer to think of the art as a mostly involuntary skill, and whatever trick the Ungoledain learned from their captive would just be the last 1% of what they needed -- surely their dark and corruptive arts brought them most of the way. Radagast might be beating himself up a little more than he deserves, but he's a well-meaning sort and feels badly about it.

MoL

OP here. Thank you for the response, MoL. I appreciate it. And I have always been a fan of the LOTRO team's restrained creativity while "filling in the corners" of the lore. I was one of those early players who theorized Mordirith's identity, based on the subtle hints given, and was thrilled when those theories were confirmed.

I also heartily agree that connecting Radagast with the origin of the Beornings makes perfect sense.

I think this particular bit of lore chafed me (and others in my roleplaying guild) because it seemed to trivialize the skin-changing ability of the Beornings -- specifically the bit about the Ungoledain torturing a Beorning until he essentially told them how to skin-change. The way Radagast words it makes it sound very simple, and then it opens up all the questions in my post: Why don't the Beornings change to other animals? Why don't they teach people outside of Beorn's line? It just didn't seem consistent with the rest of the world, even as it is represented in-game.

Your statement that "I prefer to think of the art as a mostly involuntary skill, and whatever trick the Ungoledain learned from their captive would just be the last 1% of what they needed" is much more palatable to me. I also like the notion you gave that Radagast gave the gift to some sort of proto-Beornings, rather than Beorn. And perhaps those proto-Beornings did change into a variety of animals, perhaps with each individual or bloodline having a specific animal. But then, for one reason or another, Beorn was the only one to survive into the latter Third Age, and he was "tuned" to being a bear. That's all he could become, and that's all his descendants could become.

All that being said, I really do not like the idea of retconning Gauredain into being skin-changers, for a couple reasons:

1. We're 12 years into the game. It's a bit late to be making such a significant change to such an iconic original enemy -- one of LOTRO's best, IMHO.
2. The roleplaying community has often incorporated Gauredain into plotlines, because they are a neat and interesting enemy. And never have they been thought of as skin-changers.
3. Having so many Gauredain (and Ungoledain for that matter) as skin-changers trivializes Beornings and their special uniqueness in the world.
4. I think the Gauredain are a more interesting villain without skin-changing. They feel more true to Tolkien, to me. But that's just my opinion.

I'd love it if the quest text for "The Stolen Gift" could get an update, perhaps incorporating some of your addition thoughts and comments, just to make it a bit less literal and a bit more vague/mystical, leaving some more room for interpretation and speculation. As it stands, it comes off as very prescriptive and a bit anti-climactic, especially to a Beorning character.

Also, in the questline, Radagast "withdraws" the gift of skin-changing from the Ungoledain leader, but not the other Ungoledain. It was quite confusing. How did he withdraw it? Why did he do so to only the leader?

Thanks again for reading and responding! LOTRO is an absolute treasure and you've done amazing work these past 12 years. My post title might be a bit hyperbolic (I am fond of my Beorning RP character), and the rest of the Vales zone is fabulous IMO.

[Serin36]

Not addressing your specific concern (because I am not the story or lore guy ), but a piece of LOTRO Trivia:

- the Gauredain were originally intended to be able to be skin changers when we introduced them WAY WAY back in Evendim. Unfortunately, at the time, we did not have the tech necessary to pull it off so instead they were introduced as a group of Wolf-worshippers.

I'm really glad that happened -- these wild men and beast cults would be among the more common humans on Arda at the time. My only problem with the Gauredain is not lore, but that they're too big.

[Maelon]

Werewolves are part of Tolkien lore. He mentioned them in the Silmarillion as serving Morgoth and Sauron in the First Age, and I understand there are additional references in Christopher Tolkien's Grey Annals. Iron Crown Enterprises realized this and made use of werewolves in the MERP material they developed for the PnP RPG.

[auximenes]

I just played through this content (or at least the beginning of it, centered around the Ungoledain camp south of Rhosgobel) and I did find it a little jarring to suddenly have this group being placed front-and-center to the story without any former mention of them. At one point the quest text reads like you know about these Ungoledain when speaking to the town leader and I don't remember seeing anything about them beforehand. I love MadeofLions' work and I can accept the lore reasons behind the existence of the spider shape-shifters but maybe I missed something or did something out of order but it felt like the whole introduction to them was a bit rushed and could have been... fleshed-out... a little more.

[gildhur]

I just played through this content (or at least the beginning of it, centered around the Ungoledain camp south of Rhosgobel) and I did find it a little jarring to suddenly have this group being placed front-and-center to the story without any former mention of them. At one point the quest text reads like you know about these Ungoledain when speaking to the town leader and I don't remember seeing anything about them beforehand. I love MadeofLions' work and I can accept the lore reasons behind the existence of the spider shape-shifters but maybe I missed something or did something out of order but it felt like the whole introduction to them was a bit rushed and could have been... fleshed-out... a little more.

There's a brief quest line with them in Ered Mithrin too. That may be what they're referencing.

[auximenes]

There's a brief quest line with them in Ered Mithrin too. That may be what they're referencing.

That's probably it. Having not done that zone yet I had no idea about the Ungoledain.