[Vales Spoilers] After 12 years, LOTRO finally crossed a lore bridge I can't follow

[Valakircka]

"And that message brought me hope. For Saruman the White is the greatest of my order. Radagast is, of course, a worthy Wizard, a master of shapes and changes of hue; and he has much lore of herbs and beasts, and birds are especially his friends." - Gandalf, _The Fellowship of the Ring_

MoL

i am not a native english talker but as far i can understand hue is all about colors
being a master of shapes and changes of hue does not mean changing into something completely different
if you r using the phrase and since your introdusing radagast as a teacher of skin changing why he does not changing????
again, n you cant change my mind on this, if this skill was teachable the books would had been totally(with caps on) different!

[Valakircka]

But put into context by what Beorn says in the Hobbit when asked about Radagast by Gandalf....

“Yes; not a bad fellow as wizards go, I believe. I used to see him now and again,” said Beorn.

Not exactly the way one would talk about the person who had given his lineage what he had if this is to be believed...

I agree... Beornings were as big a mistake as rune keepers but they're here now and there isn't any going back but stop stretching these abominations to the max...

what next?

Are we going to come across all the skin changers whose skills mutated and find them all in "Xavier's School for Gifted Youngsters" ?

exactly!
what i find funniest (!)
is that those spidermen were having wolves as pets begore the vale update n if i recall they still had for some days till 1st hotfix
now they still howling like the wolves...........
seems like Radagast did not tought them very well, maybe he is not a master after all

[Valakircka]

The various quests involving Radagast and the Ungoledain aren't my quests, but I do love diving into discussions like this so why let that stop me?

Our stock in trade has almost always been to find gaps in the text of LotR (and the Hobbit!) where we can find interesting places to put story -- consider the tiniest mentions of Angmar or Forochel, from which we crafted entire storylines! Radagast being friendly with the Beornings, living in this part of the world, being a Wizard whose powers include "master(y) of shapes" who is noted for his kinship with beasts... I find the possibility pretty compelling. This isn't to say, "Ah ha! We figured it out! This is the TRUE SECRET ORIGIN!" Instead, this is just the sort of connection that we've enjoyed exploring since the very beginning. I'd have to go back and look more closely at the quest, but my understanding isn't that Radagast taught the art of skin-changing to Beorn himself, but rather to a distant and forgotten forebear (wink!) that led eventually to the passing-down of the skill to Beorn and Grimbeorn. I prefer to think of the art as a mostly involuntary skill, and whatever trick the Ungoledain learned from their captive would just be the last 1% of what they needed -- surely their dark and corruptive arts brought them most of the way. Radagast might be beating himself up a little more than he deserves, but he's a well-meaning sort and feels badly about it.

and we love you for the great work you r doing with those tiniest mentions of places!
guys the epic story is great n the journey to mordor is a long one, but side stories is what giving lotro the special spirit we all love!
i m pretty sure you r aware of many of us want to see as much as possible from lotr earth!
nope i dont want to have an eagle mount i leave them as they are!
but pretty plz you dont need to strech the lore that much ..........
skin changers are only a few, i really cant look at those wolf n spider men thinking them as skin changers tought by Radagast............
i will move on my lotro life forgeting their existance ...........

[auximenes]

The various quests involving Radagast and the Ungoledain aren't my quests, but I do love diving into discussions like this so why let that stop me?

Can you check with the team and see if there's a fix coming for the Ungoledains' usage of the 'wolf howl' sounds rather than something 'spidery'?

[OldMadeOfLions]

being a master of shapes... does not mean changing into something completely different

Does it not? Mastery over shapes sure sounds like you have control over shapes to me. And the "if Radagast could do this he WOULD have!" argument holds little water for me -- Radagast's role in Fellowship of the Ring is pretty small; who's to say what the extent of his powers might have been if he had a more central part to play? If Gandalf tells us that Radagast has "mastery over shapes," I'm inclined to believe him -- but maybe he was talking about his skill at finishing jigsaw puzzles, as indicated upthread.

Can you check with the team and see if there's a fix coming for the Ungoledains' usage of the 'wolf howl'

Just to be safe I'd recommend filing a bug. They tell me it's a sound script issue, and those scripts can be pretty complicated, so sending in a bug to remind them wouldn't hurt.

MoL

[LabadalofDorlomin]

i am not a native english talker but as far i can understand hue is all about colors
being a master of shapes and changes of hue does not mean changing into something completely different
if you r using the phrase and since your introdusing radagast as a teacher of skin changing why he does not changing????
again, n you cant change my mind on this, if this skill was teachable the books would had been totally(with caps on) different!

Does it not? Mastery over shapes sure sounds like you have control over shapes to me. And the "if Radagast could do this he WOULD have!" argument holds little water for me -- Radagast's role in Fellowship of the Ring is pretty small; who's to say what the extent of his powers might have been if he had a more central part to play? If Gandalf tells us that Radagast has "mastery over shapes," I'm inclined to believe him -- but maybe he was talking about his skill at finishing jigsaw puzzles, as indicated upthread.

MoL

I love it how you get so passionately irked when someone questions your judgement in the way you interpret the meaning of something which is in it self fantasy or other worldly. Or are you the kind of person who doesn't like being challenged?

Anyway, I think it is getting difficult now for the team to seek out decent stories from the directions they are choosing to go. Tolkien kept certain aspects deliberately ambiguous and rightly so. Should we keep stepping on his shoes and second guessing things that he definitely thought was best to leave alone.

This could be solved by heading back to safe areas of the story... lets forget a big battle with another of Tolkiens mysteries (Shelob) and head back to the Shire.. South Farthing and Scouring will do very nicely. No complicated and convoluted slights of hand, just good old back to where we all started to protect our spiritual homes... I'm personally sick of helping folks in far off lands when Sharkey and his bandits are clearly heading to if not running wild and smoking all my weed stores.

[OldMadeOfLions]

I love it how you get so passionately irked when someone questions your judgement in the way you interpret the meaning of something which is in it self fantasy or other worldly.

Despite the speed with which players can experience the game, we spend a lot of time thinking these things through while designing them -- just because it's a fantasy setting doesn't mean we take it any less seriously. Now I want a 'Passionately Irked' title, though.

Or are you the kind of person who doesn't like being challenged?

Quite the opposite! I was a lawyer in my previous life, before I Narnia'd my way to Middle-earth, so arguing the merits of a decision is one of my very favorite hobbies. Combine that with game design challenges and with my obvious inability to stay away from the forums and you get a combination where I look forward to just these sort of discussions. They happen in the office too: we don't always agree with a particular direction and sometimes need to work things through with a compromise.

Anyway, I think it is getting difficult now for the team to seek out decent stories from the directions they are choosing to go.

I very much disagree, which should come as no surprise. I think some of our storytelling in recent years has been the best we've ever done.

Tolkien kept certain aspects deliberately ambiguous and rightly so. Should we keep stepping on his shoes and second guessing things that he definitely thought was best to leave alone.

And it's the age-old 'should there be a LotR game at all?' discussion, which the Professor would undoubtedly have answered in the negative. But I like videogames and I like Middle-earth, so I'm very glad there is. The various ambiguities left in the text have been our stock-in-trade since the very beginning, twelve years ago -- so it's not like this is a recent development, and I think we'll probably keep looking for interesting places to expand upon, as we've always done.

This could be solved by heading back to safe areas of the story...South Farthing and Scouring will do very nicely.

Only for hobbit players, I assume? To allow Elves and dwarves and other Big Folk to involve themselves in the Scouring of the Shire would seem to step on the Professor's shoes and undermine the whole point of the story, wouldn't it?



I'm being a little cheeky, but only because it's a useful demonstration of the sort of things we spend years thinking about. It's a complicated, tricky sort of thing, and I love it.

MoL

[Erionor]

... before I Narnia'd my way to Middle-earth ...

Nice

[Rielthiere]

And it's the age-old 'should there be a LotR game at all?' discussion, which the Professor would undoubtedly have answered in the negative.

respectfully, i disagree.

it's a space for others to tell a story - even more, an interactive one that changes with input. i think he'd respect people telling the stories they want to hear.

whether he would agree with the medium is another matter - he clearly thought some progress was going too far. on the other hand, (some) variety in cultural identity exists in his own work, and bringing people together is a strong theme, so if he were born today, he may well have an appreciation for how far we've come that he simply couldn't in his own life.

just my thoughts on the matter, but the opinions of our predecessors on matters they haven't experienced may not always be as clear cut as we might feel comfortable thinking them to be.

[gcpate]

Now I want a 'Passionately Irked' title, though.

Me too! ME TOO!

[Wargoat]

Only for hobbit players, I assume? To allow Elves and dwarves and other Big Folk to involve themselves in the Scouring of the Shire would seem to step on the Professor's shoes and undermine the whole point of the story, wouldn't it?

Speaking of Scouring of the Shire, would love to see Trouble at Tuckborough skirmish woven into that story at a proper place.

[Aethilods]

Despite the speed with which players can experience the game, we spend a lot of time thinking these things through while designing them -- just because it's a fantasy setting doesn't mean we take it any less seriously. Now I want a 'Passionately Irked' title, though.



Quite the opposite! I was a lawyer in my previous life, before I Narnia'd my way to Middle-earth, so arguing the merits of a decision is one of my very favorite hobbies. Combine that with game design challenges and with my obvious inability to stay away from the forums and you get a combination where I look forward to just these sort of discussions. They happen in the office too: we don't always agree with a particular direction and sometimes need to work things through with a compromise.



I very much disagree, which should come as no surprise. I think some of our storytelling in recent years has been the best we've ever done.



And it's the age-old 'should there be a LotR game at all?' discussion, which the Professor would undoubtedly have answered in the negative. But I like videogames and I like Middle-earth, so I'm very glad there is. The various ambiguities left in the text have been our stock-in-trade since the very beginning, twelve years ago -- so it's not like this is a recent development, and I think we'll probably keep looking for interesting places to expand upon, as we've always done.



Only for hobbit players, I assume? To allow Elves and dwarves and other Big Folk to involve themselves in the Scouring of the Shire would seem to step on the Professor's shoes and undermine the whole point of the story, wouldn't it?



I'm being a little cheeky, but only because it's a useful demonstration of the sort of things we spend years thinking about. It's a complicated, tricky sort of thing, and I love it.

MoL

Though what i am bout to say has nothing to do but, ive talking to a few people and streamers and stuff that sometimes it feels like you guys say something like hey a new class! then no no not yet, like it feels you guys at SSG are little off-edged or don't know entirely what everyone wants like 1 update may have 3-4 instances while another may give out 200 quests and no instances and my thought would be maybe an ingame and forum poll to see what people want so you have a less of a chance of not getting everyone heard or those who feel that unheard can be heard. Like you don't want someone who never done or attempted a t2 raid speak about on forums and their voice is heard and no hard raids while vice versa that the raiders choose what updates are, IDK , but I think showing what your guys ideas are and seeing what we the players who play lotro think of updates and upcoming updates would be beneficial to lotro now and moving forward into (i hope) long future.

[Thundertrain]

...I was a lawyer in my previous life, before I Narnia'd my way to Middle-earth...

Objection! Calls for speculation as to how one author's fantasy realm is used as a verb indicating transport to another author's fantasy realm.

I very much disagree, which should come as no surprise.

Objection! Argumentative.

Sorry, MoL. I just couldn't help myself when you played the lawyer card.

[Druidsfire]

I was a lawyer in my previous life, before I Narnia'd my way to Middle-earth

Interestingly enough, WoW's Game Director Ion Hazzikostas used to be a lawyer too before he went into the game industry. And you made Narnia into a verb. Hahaha. That's like Professor Corey making Rivendell into one for the spectacular way he used to fly off bridges near the Last Homely House.

Only for hobbit players, I assume? To allow Elves and dwarves and other Big Folk to involve themselves in the Scouring of the Shire

/snip

You know I have theories as to how you lot plan on doing that, right? I wonder if I'll get you miffed about it this time like you did when I'd guessed (correctly) how you'd do the End of the Ring in that interview months before Mordor came out. LOLOLOLOLOL

Drood.

[Pontin_Finnberry]

I very much disagree, which should come as no surprise. I think some of our storytelling in recent years has been the best we've ever done.

I agree, I love the stories that been made in recent years, they are fun as always.

Only for hobbit players, I assume? To allow Elves and dwarves and other Big Folk to involve themselves in the Scouring of the Shire would seem to step on the Professor's shoes and undermine the whole point of the story, wouldn't it?

I have some ideas of how that might turn out. can't wait till we get there, it should be fun, and since I'm a hobbit, i except to be in battle!

[gildhur]

I very much disagree, which should come as no surprise. I think some of our storytelling in recent years has been the best we've ever done.

Agree! Rohan was a bit of a low point, I think, but Minas Tirith and forward has been fantastic. The instanced way you used Denethor and the palantir was breathtaking, the Gothmog reveal had me yelling at my screen, and the power vacuum storyline in Mordor was lots of fun.

And it's the age-old 'should there be a LotR game at all?' discussion, which the Professor would undoubtedly have answered in the negative. But I like videogames and I like Middle-earth, so I'm very glad there is. The various ambiguities left in the text have been our stock-in-trade since the very beginning, twelve years ago -- so it's not like this is a recent development, and I think we'll probably keep looking for interesting places to expand upon, as we've always done.

Yes! Games that follow the exact storyline of the original IP, even an IP as compelling as LotR, are boring. The entire point of the richness of the worldbuilding of Tolkien's mythos is to explore it.

Only for hobbit players, I assume? To allow Elves and dwarves and other Big Folk to involve themselves in the Scouring of the Shire would seem to step on the Professor's shoes and undermine the whole point of the story, wouldn't it?

I for one can't wait to bring my High Elf Captain to help lead the Hobbits take back their homes in the fully instanced new Shire zone.

[webrender]

I very much disagree, which should come as no surprise. I think some of our storytelling in recent years has been the best we've ever done.
MoL

I have to agree on this one. The Vales alone was some of the best story telling I have played through.

[LabadalofDorlomin]

Now I want a 'Passionately Irked' title, though.

MoL

Hey, hands off.... thats mine..... @Cordovan ------ please make it so... I too would like that title.

[LabadalofDorlomin]

Hey, hands off.... thats mine..... @Cordovan ------ please make it so... I too would like that title.

Hey Cordovan... thanks a lot.... that made my day....

[Erionor]

Hey Cordovan... thanks a lot.... that made my day....

Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant.

This thread brings to mind a quote from Tolkien himself:

“I would draw some of the great tales in fullness, and leave many only placed in the scheme, and sketched. The cycles should be linked to a majestic whole, and yet leave scope for other minds and hands, wielding paint and music and drama. Absurd.”

I think that pretty much sums it up

[Phantion]

I think some of our storytelling in recent years has been the best we've ever done.

And it's the age-old 'should there be a LotR game at all?' discussion, which the Professor would undoubtedly have answered in the negative. But I like videogames and I like Middle-earth, so I'm very glad there is. The various ambiguities left in the text have been our stock-in-trade since the very beginning, twelve years ago -- so it's not like this is a recent development, and I think we'll probably keep looking for interesting places to expand upon, as we've always done.


MoL

Agreed mostly- and I love it too

I think though that we will ----------never---------- know how Tolkien would have responded to the MMORPG medium in particular. But I can make some educated guesses. I don't think he would have liked the raiding (unless everyone in the raid had to pretend they were characters from Beowulf when in his presence, though that would make in-raid communication very amusing!), the modern-holiday elements of festivals, the grinds, or any of that Why? Story. Story. Story. The story would have mattered to him, not his DPS or healing abilities. Of course, as I said, who knows?


I think its fair to say he would have loved the stories, some more than others, and that is undoubtedly so. Can we posit a -negative- reaction to the Stone of Wyrgende from Tolkien? I don't think so! I think he would have been THRILLED that someone went to the trouble of writing a Rohirric - Old English - Anglo-Saxon Lay in proper metre! I think the storytelling in the quest-text-boxes would have, at the least, intrigued his interest, because we know that it was the genre of -film adaptation- that Tolkien particularly rejected,.

Why? TEXT. Text. Text. Tolkien was probably -the author- of the Twentieth Century who most appreciated the value of the textual medium- of writing as a physical artifact comprised of words, and of the imagination to be cherished (i.e. the imagination drawing images from words). I think that, while technology such as computers would have irked him, the -language- and the -tone- of your storytelling............... that would have attracted him, the stories, the writing, the philology behind it. Erebor's storyline with Gandalf as a philologist? Wow- I can imagine Tolkien feeling impressed fairly easily there. LOTRO is a very interesting mixture of visual and textual medium's- yes, like a movie, there are the graphics, but like a book, the stories are not all recited by actors to you, you are reading the stories as you encounter them quest by quest.

Ironically, I think that the more your storytelling gets into the -history- of the zones, and lore such as this with Radagast and the Beornings, the more like Tolkien the writing gets.

The Amarthiel, Mordirith stuff? Not sure- perhaps. I certainly enjoyed it. Language history and the evolution of place-names? Oh YES! That's Tolkien's prime interest right there. The more stories delve into weaving the fabric of Middle-earth, as GRR Martin said- "the world as its own character," the more the game increases my interest even though the Ring was destroyed. The latest twists in the Black Book? Without spoiling anything: WOW. Just WOW. I did not see that coming. Now I have to run -four- characters up through it for............ reasons

As potential negative reactions to........... the game filling-in blanks that Tolkien deliberately left as mysteries, while I respect that perspective (after all, its hard for me to imagine Tolkien's mysterious, huge Moria now that my mind can visit all of its levels and layers when not playing in-game- though I LOVE in-game Moria, so I'm conflicted there, hehehehe):

Well, then, might as well close the game right now if that's the consensus. Why? Because, well, what is there left to do? The Ring's destroyed, and so, if the Game is to continue, it -MUST- return to doing the things it did during Volumes I and II: filling-in-the-gaps. Forochel did this, so did Evendim, North Downs, Angmar, Enedwaith, Dunland, the parts of Moria Tolkien did not mention, the Watcher in the Water, the Foundations of Stone, Dol Guldor, Great River, the parts of Rohan Tolkien did not write about, the parts of Gondor Tolkien did not write about, the parts of Mordor Tolkien did not write about, Ered Mithrim, Iron Hills, and now, the parts of Vales of Anduin that Tolkien did not write about. 75% of the Game, in my estimation, is the Game filling-in gaps and solving mysteries left by Tolkien. Without aiming to solve such mysteries, there is literally nothing else to do. So, onward! I want to see the rest of Mordor, Rhun, Harad, Khand, Umbar, the "Great Nothing" between the Brown-lands and Rhun, the parts of Middle-earth beyond Western Gondor and south and west of current Eriador, and please-please-please complete the Great River Anduin, you are SOOOO close! Just one little stretch of river more up to Gundabad!!!.......... there is just so much more to explore and awesome lore to discover. Bring it on!

[LabadalofDorlomin]

Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant.

This thread brings to mind a quote from Tolkien himself:

“I would draw some of the great tales in fullness, and leave many only placed in the scheme, and sketched. The cycles should be linked to a majestic whole, and yet leave scope for other minds and hands, wielding paint and music and drama. Absurd.”

I think that pretty much sums it up

If you had read on in that letter to Milton you also get this ...

"It may become possessive, clinging to the things made as 'its own', the sub-creator wishes to be the Lord and God of his private creation. He will rebel against the laws of the Creator – especially against mortality. Both of these (alone or together) will lead to the desire for Power, for making the will more quickly effective, – and so to the Machine (or Magic)."

I assume, as you leave no reason, that you think this above is him saying that the ambiguous areas of his work are fair game to be fleshed out? Could be but in the next paragraph of that very letter he warns about a parallel between the world he created and the creator and subsequent sub creators.... Now surely we're not saying that Chris Pearson has become Morgoth and MoL has become Sauron.... but........................... ..................


All good fun and games

[LabadalofDorlomin]

I think Tolkien' open displays of magic and magical'ness was kept to a nice simmering under the hood limit with a few poor exception and this possibly the worst.

Sorry to quote myself but on the point above there is a sentence that also has some bearing on the use of magic in his works..

"He will rebel against the laws of the Creator – especially against mortality. Both of these (alone or together) will lead to the desire for Power, for making the will more quickly effective, – and so to the Machine (or Magic). By the last I intend all use of external plans or devices (apparatus) instead of development of the inherent inner powers or talents — or even the use of these talents with the corrupted motive of dominating: bulldozing the real world, or coercing other wills. The Machine is our more obvious modern form though more closely related to Magic than is usually recognised."

I really think he left magic as we know it to a real minimum, in fact leaving it to the heavenly and therefore a more angelic theme than anything mortals could muster. As he states the real magic is the machine or a physical form of manifestation in a real sense....

was he a prophet? Not for me to say although I feel personally not..... but cannot through industry, one thing seem to be another? Or can one thing be completely now hidden from our eyes? The list of seeming magic'll'ness is endless... bring back a Victorian man and show him anything modern and he would scream Demon or Devilry.... Tolkien took the world he lived through and adapted it cleverly through his hated allegory for the story we now love....

Long story short, he would have hated this abomination of his Beorning..

[Erionor]

If you had read on in that letter to Milton you also get this ...

"It may become possessive, clinging to the things made as 'its own', the sub-creator wishes to be the Lord and God of his private creation. He will rebel against the laws of the Creator – especially against mortality. Both of these (alone or together) will lead to the desire for Power, for making the will more quickly effective, – and so to the Machine (or Magic)."

I assume, as you leave no reason, that you think this above is him saying that the ambiguous areas of his work are fair game to be fleshed out? Could be but in the next paragraph of that very letter he warns about a parallel between the world he created and the creator and subsequent sub creators.... Now surely we're not saying that Chris Pearson has become Morgoth and MoL has become Sauron.... but........................... ..................

Interesting... I had not read the whole letter, but now have, and it is a great read. Serves me right for referencing a secondary rather than primary source...

I think what I am trying to say is that yes, there are areas Tolkien left ambiguous, and were he still alive today, he would have jealously guarded the work as the "God of his private creation". That's why there were no film adaptations in his lifetime. However, his intention was to create a mythology, not a history, and myths have always been adapted, embellished and adjusted with artistic licence, as they are myths, and not reality. Look how many adaptations there have been of The Odyssey, or The Iliad, or the trials of Hercules, or of the Legend of King Arthur or Robin Hood. The 90s movie of Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves included an Arab character, played by Morgan Freeman, who fought at Robin's side. Was it in the original tales? No, but it was plausible that this could have happened as Robin had returned from fighting in the crusades. I think what Tolkien would have appreciated most of all is that people are so gripped by his mythology that they are engaged in passionate(ly irked) debate about it and want to add more to it.

So in my view, is it OK that the game invents its own lore to "flesh out" the story? Yes, as long as it it in keeping with the tone of the original material and there is a justification for it. Should it be accepted as canon? No, as it wasn't written by the author. Is everyone entitled to their opinion on the quality or plausibility of the content? Of course they are! I often cringe when people make suggestions that seem to go against the style of the material, but if I don't like it, then I can take it or leave it.

Mostly, I think this game is very faithful to the canon, barring the odd monster that seems out of place (looking at you, morroval and nameless ), and mostly stays within the bounds of Tolkien's more grounded, "realistic" take on fantasy fiction. I see your view on the shape-shifting, but it just about works, I think, as long as you remember that nobody is trying to say it is canon.

Now surely we're not saying that Chris Pearson has become Morgoth and MoL has become Sauron.... but........................... ..................

No, but now you think about it, it could explain a few things...

[Gandolf_TheOld]

No, but now you think about it, it could explain a few things...

Yes, I see, and we as players have become their minions.