Captain tanking needs a nerf!

[Joedangod]

Which is not true at all. This poster has advocated for a lot more extremes on both nerfs and buffs and have seen him around for a while now.

Honestly I'm not sure what's funnier, the fact that they're now looking for stuff like that or the fact that there's probably nothing I can do to convince them it's not me.

It is strange, but the comment he posted (aside from the extreme tone) is pretty valid. Some of this stuff I don't even understand...compare the raid set bonus for blue warden vs cappy tank. Cappies get a CD decrease on the strongest skill in the game, Wardens get an extra 5% room for their morale to drop before never surrender kicks in. I don't believe the devs don't understand the problem.

That Warden set bonus works out to be a rough -15% incoming damage reduction that you almost always have up. It's not a bad set bonus by any means.

IMO, we need to buff the other tanks first, and can tweak cappies from there.

Why? If you've buffed every other tank to the level of Captains you don't need to adjust Captains because that's the new baseline. The whole point of nerfing Captains is that Captains are the single biggest outlier and thus bringing them back into line is less work than anything else since it mostly just involves neutering their support abilities whilst in yellow. Nerfs are not inherently bad and buffs are not inherently good, they're just two ways to accomplish the same goal.

[Hephburz-2]

Why? If you've buffed every other tank to the level of Captains you don't need to adjust Captains because that's the new baseline.

I think this is the fundamental problem.

We don't want to buff other tanks to the level of the Captain, no one, anywhere has ever advocated for that fact, especially when every single one of us has all agreed there needs to be certain targetted nerfs to Captain (what we disagree on is when those nerfs should take place) - which should be, in my view; AFTER we get the feel for where the other tanks lie once they're buffed and once the content is accessible to all tanks (i.e. Threshold). Captains are operating at 120-130%, every other tank is operating at between 90-70%, we need to bring them all to 100%.

What we further disagree upon is "how" those tanks should be buffed, largely, 3/5 of the tanks (Guard, Captain, Beorning) are more than fine in terms of survivability, however of those 3, only 1 brings unbridled levels of support. I think we should be arguing for survivability buffs to Wardens and Champions, whilst also improving all tanks (minus Captains) level of support, either offensively or defensively, and then making targetted nerfs to the Captains survivability and healing.

We can sit here and argue endlessly about whether or not we agree if Captain should be able to bring the level of support that it does, the easiest fix, is to make Captain less tanky, but not so weak that it is incapable of completing content, but weak enough that it cannot tank content without a healer, or solo-tank raid content.

[Kotal]

I think this is the fundamental problem.

We don't want to buff other tanks to the level of the Captain, no one, anywhere has ever advocated for that fact, especially when every single one of us has all agreed there needs to be certain targetted nerfs to Captain (what we disagree on is when those nerfs should take place) - which should be, in my view; AFTER we get the feel for where the other tanks lie once they're buffed and once the content is accessible to all tanks (i.e. Threshold). Captains are operating at 120-130%, every other tank is operating at between 90-70%, we need to bring them all to 100%.

What we further disagree upon is "how" those tanks should be buffed, largely, 3/5 of the tanks (Guard, Captain, Beorning) are more than fine in terms of survivability, however of those 3, only 1 brings unbridled levels of support. I think we should be arguing for survivability buffs to Wardens and Champions, whilst also improving all tanks (minus Captains) level of support, either offensively or defensively, and then making targetted nerfs to the Captains survivability and healing.

We can sit here and argue endlessly about whether or not we agree if Captain should be able to bring the level of support that it does, the easiest fix, is to make Captain less tanky, but not so weak that it is incapable of completing content, but weak enough that it cannot tank content without a healer, or solo-tank raid content.

in a perfect world were ssg knows how to balance classes, i would love this idea. however, since ssg showed us many times that they for the most part don't care about a fair and balanced meta, i think streamlining tanking as a whole should not be something to aim for rn. yes, it would be great if champ or warden would be on par with the other tanks, but both of these classes have 2 perfectly viable dps lines available. given the fact that balancing their tanking lines would require a large overhaul to them, and potentially changes to their other lines to prevent certain cross traits turning them way overpowered just like cappy is atm, i think these two should be lowest priority to rework rn. not saying i'm against a wide selection of tanks, but i think the main focus should not be these two for the time being.
first priority should be guardian due to them not really having a viable role in a raid (yes theoretically you want to have a guardian as off tank now for b2 threshold, but groups will still make a large sacrifice when bringing a guard; but they have BR now!!!!! yes, right, an unreliable buffing skill that cashes out their mits, leaving them at lowest tank mits for a couple seconds, unless you exploit litany).
so unless they give guards the warden treatment, say they are a dps class now and buff red line to champ levels, they should really focus on getting guards into shape (get rid of the rng on survivability pls thx).

bear tanks on the other hand really don't need much to be on top. amazing aggro management, good survivability and great dps support. only need a few tweaks tbh.


on a different note: a general avoidances/finesse overhaul would also do a lot for most tanks, and it could make innate aggro gen much more impactful than it is rn

[XSR2]

Given that this thread is here, I thought I would throw in my two cents.

As it currently stands, a support class is the undisputed best tank in the game. From what I have read here the reasons are: 1) Cappies have access to greater amounts of health than other tanking classes. 2) Cappies are able to maintain self (in addition buffing others) incoming healing rating, so healing a cappy is easier. 3) Cappies have access to the most useful CDs when compared to other tanks. And finally 4) Cappies contribute many passive buffs in addition to their tanking. Some time ago, I created a thread when the skill Elendil's Roar came out saying that it eliminated the captain tank's only weakness of tanking multiple adds. Before this skill, captains were only ever single target tanks, and all other tanking classes/specs still needed to be viable for content (mostly just the guard). One of the solutions presented was that the cappy should be nerfed to equalize it and other classes, and another was that all other tanks should be buffed to equality. Given that there were five tanks mentioned, I would advise against buffing 4 classes to match the one. The classes listed (if I recall correctly) were, the blue and yellow guardians, the blue warden, the blue beorning, the yellow captain, and the blue champion. As it currently stands, all raids take 2 tanks, usually one for the boss, and another for adds. If each tanking class were buffed to equality with the captain, then guards would not be able to enter groups. Currently, champs and wardens (I think) are good dps, the beorning is an excellent healer, while the guard can only tank. This means that if wardens/champs/beornings were good enough to take the place of a guard, guards would lose their very few spots in groups (1/12).
Instead I would advocate to return the captain to the way they used to be.
Firstly, Elendil's roar should not have been made, cappies are very strong tanks without it and unmatched at tanking groups because of it.
Secondly, Shield of the Dunedain should not have been allowed to target self. Its intent was to protect whoever the captain thought needed it, not just themselves.
Thirdly, the yellow banner should be changed to give those inside a damage reduction (perhaps similar to battle-hardened)
Fourthly, the blue banner should be changed to the incoming healing buff of the yellow banner.
And finally, the restriction on Oathbreaker's Shame should be removed.
If Elendil's Roar were removed then there would be a need for tanks who can handle groups (ie guard/ward/bear). As for my second point, Shield of the Dunedain is one of the most powerful skills in the game, and was once limited to allies only. This was done because the captain is a support class that was intended to buff its allies, rather than replace them. Rather than attempting to buff all other tanks, these changes would help to make up for the inherent shortcomings of the other classes. The CDs of the guard are seen as lesser because they increase avoidances which have little to no value in many cases. From what I have read of the Warden tank, a common complaint is the lack of CD abilities. Furthermore, a banner to reduce incoming damage would be very valuable for blue wardens who lack mitigations. In addition to this, the captain's blue banner is not very powerful, and I think the 3rd and 4th changes would help with that. A yellow traited captain could augment tanks, via damage reduction, SotD, the IHW+LS combo, etc. while still being able to tank single target. Blue traited cappies would be able to heal more easily. And finally red traited cappies could Oathies more often, while drawing from other abilites (for example IHW, although suicide without LS, can still save the group)

PS. I am a cappy main, I am not a whining guard/beorn/champ/ward

[HolyDuckTape]

Nerf captains, support tank being the best tank in the game by a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge margin bruh

[Fatty]

### sort of drugs is a person calling for a _nerf_ to Captains on? Captains need either a mega buff or they may as well remove the class from the game entirely. Class change is desperately needed, yesterday!

[BlitzKr1eg]

This might be controversial, but in my eyes Captains shouldn't even be considered a tank above 3-mans, Captains should never be a better tank then Guardians and Wardens, they should also be inferior to Champs/Beo.

Instead devs should make 2 non-tanking captains in 1 raid preferable once again, one step could be to remove the OB penalty.

To be Captains got 1 unique role = Buffing, along with being able to provide decent heals, dps and off-tankning.

Yellow-line needs a complete revamp, blue-line should also be buffed in some ways to make it as viable as red-line.

[Ethrildar]

Short and sweet:

Finding a tank is impossible lately, that's why I play three now.

We need more tanks, not less, unless you want literally zero non-kinship instance content to be run.

Make the other tanks as viable as Captains.

End of.

[zaboch]

Only change Captain should see is locking the rez to be Blue-line only. Rest stands as is.

Nerfing the Captain without buffing other classes doesn't make other classes suddenly viable.

[Aeviternus]

This might be controversial

No it's not controversial, merely an incorrect opinion.

[BlitzKr1eg]

No it's not controversial, merely an incorrect opinion.

That depends if you prefer how the game was before HD trait-line revamp or not, it wasn't an incorrect opinion back before HD.

Personally I thought the game was much more fun before HD changed everything.

[XSR2]

This might be controversial, but in my eyes Captains shouldn't even be considered a tank above 3-mans

Fully agree, the captain is a support class, they should "Support" other players in 6+ man content, not replace them (support in 3 mans is not quite viable on its own, so their tanking 3-mans I think is fine.

Captains should never be a better tank then Guardians and Wardens...

Also fully agree, the guard has a total of one thing they can do in groups, and from what I have read, Cappies have three (blue is good, red is required, and yellow is OP.

Captains got 1 unique role = Buffing, along with being able to provide decent heals, dps and off-tankning

I would also agree here. The difference between any other class and the captain, is that the captain provides buffs. While, I am not against guard/ward having support abilities, I do not think they should have buffs. Therefore, I think that break ranks should be changed, perhaps to the litany mitigation discussed earlier in this thread. The role of buffing should be unique to the captain, and other tanks should not be redesigned to copy the captain, by giving them buffs of their own. The only exception I think should be allowed are litany of defiance and fellowship protector (which should be a %), as these help to protect the fellowship (the tank's role) when taunts are unavailable/not applicable/not working (ie. storv bug).

...[cappy's] blue-line should also be buffed in some ways to make it as viable as red-line.

For this, I might 1st, fix valour, it could be interesting if it worked or was changed to a skill to trigger inspiriting presence. This could provide some interesting combos with healers as well as dpsers. 2ndly, as I mentioned above, the current yellow banner would be more appropriate in blue so the cappy can help healers to heal more effectively (including himself), rather than adding a weak heal.

[Hephburz-2]

This whole "a support class shouldn't be able to do X" is beyond outdated in LotRO, it truly is, MULTIPLE classes blur the lines between what is stated as their function in the character creation screen (which was last updated 13 years ago) and their actual role. It's called, things change over time. Get over it and stop using it as the topic lines for why Captains shouldn't be as good a tank as any other tanking class. Yellow line exists, it wasn't made to be sub-par, it wasn't made so that they should only be able to tank X content, it was made so that they could be tanks, just as much as any other classes tank/heal/dps/support line, the problem is, SSG is incapable of balancing all 30 lines. Captains should be just as good as any other tanking class (And the same vice versa), this whole, Captains should never be as good as Guardians or X other class, is an equally outdated concept.

As I pointed out in my earlier comments. Captains are currently operating at 120-130% where all other tanks are at 90-60%, Captains need targetted nerfs as much as every other tank needs targetted buffs. Secondly, "remove Elendil's Roar", again, *yawn*, SSG has chosen to in a way standardise tanking force taunts across all of it's tanking classes, in some cases, perhaps it wasn't necessary, but the aggro/threat system has been dead since it's rework at 95, and now we are finally in a position where we can say any tank 'on paper' is capable of actually doing their job, you know, "tanking / holding aggro". Anyone also claiming that it prevents other tanks from getting into a raid, might I point you to T5 Bloody Threshold kill video's, could just be my eyes, but I'm sure there are Guardians there.

Captains need a hit to their healing, Revealing Mark needs yet another overhaul (adding a % based heal when our morale pools are ever-increasing was an extremely BAD decision from the get-go and I even said as much), the Remmo set bonus for tanking needs to be deleted (that set bonus equally should never have existed in the first place), SoD should only be useable on another target, I will concede Captains have far too many survivability skills, often SoD was always used elsewhere / on another target instead anyway, let's cement that idea, and finally, the LS heal should be reduced to 10%.

Captains are more than likely never not going to have two spots, by pure virtue of the fact that you 'need' motivation/IDOME and due to the changes to OB, you are hindering yourself by taking two Red Captains. Unless such decision is reverted, and/or a viable alternative to RCaptain is made, we will continue to always see a Red and a Yellow Captain in raids.

[BlitzKr1eg]

This whole "a support class shouldn't be able to do X" is beyond outdated in LotRO, it truly is, MULTIPLE classes blur the lines between what is stated as their function in the character creation screen (which was last updated 13 years ago) and their actual role. It's called, things change over time. Get over it and stop using it as the topic lines for why Captains shouldn't be as good a tank as any other tanking class. Yellow line exists, it wasn't made to be sub-par, it wasn't made so that they should only be able to tank X content, it was made so that they could be tanks, just as much as any other classes tank/heal/dps/support line, the problem is, SSG is incapable of balancing all 30 lines. Captains should be just as good as any other tanking class (And the same vice versa), this whole, Captains should never be as good as Guardians or X other class, is an equally outdated concept.

Again, it's all comes down to how you prefer the game design, after HD SSG/Turbine went down the route with proper trait lines, I guess the thought was that every trait line should be a viable option. But the reality is that there are classes with just one or even zero viable trait lines in a group environment.

That's why i vastly prefer the old system, captains had a role that almost always granted them 2 slots in a raid. Frankly i don't believe that the game can ever function with each class having multiple roles, it hasn't worked after all these years since HD at least... It works in some more modern MMO's, but it's never worked in lotro.

SSG has failed again and again with the multiple roles vision, I doubt they ever will succeed.

It boils down to what's really going on in the game, the reality is that class balance is absolutely bonkers in certain areas, the multiple trait line roles doesn't work. Only Beorning and RK's were designed to be viable with 2 roles, one of them got zero roles atm in grp/raid.

Guardians = 0 roles in raid/grp
Rune-Keeper = 0 roles in raid/grp
Minstrels = 1 role in raid (sorta 1 and 1/2 with their pre buffs)
Warden = 1 role in raid/grp
Lore Master = 1 role in raid/grp

I'm sure there are more examples

It just baffles me that people are still supporting a system that has never and will never work in this game. Lotro unlike many newer MMO's wasn't designed from the ground up with each class fulfilling multiple roles in grp/raid.

[zaboch]

A
Guardians = 0 roles in raid/grp
Rune-Keeper = 0 roles in raid/grp
Minstrels = 1 role in raid (sorta 1 and 1/2 with their pre buffs)
Warden = 1 role in raid/grp
Lore Master = 1 role in raid/grp

This isn't true.

Guardian can tank AD T3-5, it's just that...well...Captain is better.
Rune-keepers can be very useful due to the raid-wide damage reduction and bubbles they provide, along with Fates, especially useful for Thrash, Charge and in case of Wargs slipping past, Fates/Bubble.
Minstrels are very useful in both Blue and Yellow. We often run a dedicated Yellow Minstrel with DPS group.
Seen Wardens tank B1 without any issues, unfortunately, NS is gimped and doesn't save you if something goes wrong on B2.
Lore-Master is plagued with bad design with Blue, Red isn't too bad, it's just that nothing is allowed to move to get the damage output done. I have no doubts Red LM can reach 450-500k DPS on B1 specifically.

[BlitzKr1eg]

This isn't true.

Guardian can tank AD T3-5, it's just that...well...Captain is better.
Rune-keepers can be very useful due to the raid-wide damage reduction and bubbles they provide, along with Fates, especially useful for Thrash, Charge and in case of Wargs slipping past, Fates/Bubble.
Minstrels are very useful in both Blue and Yellow. We often run a dedicated Yellow Minstrel with DPS group.
Seen Wardens tank B1 without any issues, unfortunately, NS is gimped and doesn't save you if something goes wrong on B2.
Lore-Master is plagued with bad design with Blue, Red isn't too bad, it's just that nothing is allowed to move to get the damage output done. I have no doubts Red LM can reach 450-500k DPS on B1 specifically.

That's really pushing it, this doesn't apply to any challenging content , unless it's a very specific part of a raid. This also means that it's even hard to get invite for easier content for many classes/specs, since even easy content is much faster with the current meta.

[Osglinthor]

Again, it's all comes down to how you prefer the game design, after HD SSG/Turbine went down the route with proper trait lines, I guess the thought was that every trait line should be a viable option. But the reality is that there are classes with just one or even zero viable trait lines in a group environment.

That's why i vastly prefer the old system, captains had a role that almost always granted them 2 slots in a raid. Frankly i don't believe that the game can ever function with each class having multiple roles, it hasn't worked after all these years since HD at least... It works in some more modern MMO's, but it's never worked in lotro.

SSG has failed again and again with the multiple roles vision, I doubt they ever will succeed.

It boils down to what's really going on in the game, the reality is that class balance is absolutely bonkers in certain areas, the multiple trait line roles doesn't work. Only Beorning and RK's were designed to be viable with 2 roles, one of them got zero roles atm in grp/raid.

Guardians = 0 roles in raid/grp
Rune-Keeper = 0 roles in raid/grp
Minstrels = 1 role in raid (sorta 1 and 1/2 with their pre buffs)
Warden = 1 role in raid/grp
Lore Master = 1 role in raid/grp

I'm sure there are more examples

It just baffles me that people are still supporting a system that has never and will never work in this game. Lotro unlike many newer MMO's wasn't designed from the ground up with each class fulfilling multiple roles in grp/raid.

Captain having 2 or 3 in certain situations viable roles has nothing to do with other classes having 0.Following your preference SSG would have to scrape already working trait lines in favor of single "role".
Game already strugles with population,grind is unbearable per new toon,what the fk would be the point of restricting amount of roles class can play.
RK was fine being able to heal and dps when yellow was viable,sure wasnt prefered due to lack of offensive support mini/bear bring but still.There was no problems being able to tank/dps on ward/champ in past.Saying it never worked its some BS,when at previous caps there were more than one viable trait line per class.
Even if curently SSG isnt even able to work on one trait line at a time.It makes no sense going to itentionaly scrap ruin trait lines just to limit to one role per raid esp when some of them could be quite easly fixed/made viable.

[BlitzKr1eg]

Captain having 2 or 3 in certain situations viable roles has nothing to do with other classes having 0.Following your preference SSG would have to scrape already working trait lines in favor of single "role".
Game already strugles with population,grind is unbearable per new toon,what the fk would be the point of restricting amount of roles class can play.
RK was fine being able to heal and dps when yellow was viable,sure wasnt prefered due to lack of offensive support mini/bear bring but still.There was no problems being able to tank/dps on ward/champ in past.Saying it never worked its some BS,when at previous caps there were more than one viable trait line per class.
Even if curently SSG isnt even able to work on one trait line at a time.It makes no sense going to itentionaly scrap ruin trait lines just to limit to one role per raid esp when some of them could be quite easly fixed/made viable.

It's pretty obvious that SSG either lack the resources or the knowledge to balance classes with multiple roles. The point of going back to the old philosophy would be to make class balance easier.

Again it's pretty baffeling that many of you still support the current system when its showed to be a complete failure again and again.

Also I've never stated that for example RK's cant heal or that Guardians can't tank, obviously they can do both when it comes to easier content. However that means that getting invited to instances/raids when your class/trait line isn't the current meta is incredibly difficult. It would take much less resources/do how if SSG went back to the old way were each class had 1 single viable role in grouping.

[zaboch]

That's really pushing it, this doesn't apply to any challenging content , unless it's a very specific part of a raid. This also means that it's even hard to get invite for easier content for many classes/specs, since even easy content is much faster with the current meta.

There are videos of Guardians, Yellow Minstrels and Blue Wardens in T5 AD...but...yeah, I'm pushing it.

[BlitzKr1eg]

There are videos of Guardians, Yellow Minstrels and Blue Wardens in T5 AD...but...yeah, I'm pushing it.

It doesn't really change the fact that in general both Wardens and Guardians are vastly inferior tanks in most scenarios...

Obviously really good kins can carry at least another class, but most people aren't in hardcore raiding kins, I doubt that demographic is more than 5% of the total population.

[zaboch]

It doesn't really change the fact that in general both Wardens and Guardians are vastly inferior tanks in most scenarios...

Not vastly at all, they're fit and able to run it without issues.
But your point is that certain classes have no useful lines or can only perform one, which is entirely untrue.

[BlitzKr1eg]

Not vastly at all, they're fit and able to run it without issues.
But your point is that certain classes have no useful lines or can only perform one, which is entirely untrue.

Really? The Guardian and RK community will rejoice with your new revelation. Finally we'll see groups looking for Guardians and RK dps again

Heck I might even extent my sub now, thanks

Strangely I'm not seeing any positive comments in either class forums, maybe they aren't enlightened yet? You should go there

[zaboch]

Really? The Guardian and RK community will rejoice with your new revelation. Finally we'll see groups looking for Guardians and RK dps again

Now you're twisting your narrative.

Guardians = 0 roles in raid/grp
Rune-Keeper = 0 roles in raid/grp
Minstrels = 1 role in raid (sorta 1 and 1/2 with their pre buffs)
Warden = 1 role in raid/grp
Lore Master = 1 role in raid/grp

And I've replied accordingly. Guardians can and do tank T3-5 rather well. Minstrels can Yellow buff in T3-5 very well. RKs heal (at no point did I mention DPS) T3-5 extremely well. If Wardens NS worked properly, they wouldn't have any issues traiting Blue/Yellow and off-tanking T3-5, as it stands, they are really good at B1 only.

Your sarcasm and narrative twisting, for whatever point, serves no purpose. Class balance here is much, much better than Remmorchant's was. And if people aren't looking for Guardians/Minstrels/RKs, maybe....it's either a PUG and just wanna go for FOTMs or it just doesn't fit into their comp. But yeah...they all have viable lines and work rather well in an actual raid.

[Hephburz-2]

Again, it's all comes down to how you prefer the game design, after HD SSG/Turbine went down the route with proper trait lines, I guess the thought was that every trait line should be a viable option. But the reality is that there are classes with just one or even zero viable trait lines in a group environment.

That's why i vastly prefer the old system, captains had a role that almost always granted them 2 slots in a raid. Frankly i don't believe that the game can ever function with each class having multiple roles, it hasn't worked after all these years since HD at least... It works in some more modern MMO's, but it's never worked in lotro.

SSG has failed again and again with the multiple roles vision, I doubt they ever will succeed.

One class not having a viable trait line =/= another class shouldn't have two. It just means SSG need to sort themselves out and make viable trait lines for the class(es) without any. It also doesn't mean the class with two viable trait lines should be any less effective in its respective role than a class with one or none.

Yes, it would be lovely if all 30 trait lines were viable, unlikely to happen in the next 10 years, but them completely overhauling the system again to be like what it was before in the next 10 years is also equally unrealistic. This is the hand we've been dealt, all we can do is try to improve each line overtime to make it competent and viable. NONE of this means that Captains need be less / not as good as any other tank.

[Joedangod]

That's why i vastly prefer the old system, captains had a role that almost always granted them 2 slots in a raid. Frankly i don't believe that the game can ever function with each class having multiple roles, it hasn't worked after all these years since HD at least... It works in some more modern MMO's, but it's never worked in lotro.

There's no real practical difference between the old system and what we currently have in LOTRO. The old trait system was essentially just class = role and this is what we have now, generally speaking each class is only good in one role with Captains being the primary outlier.

The trait tree system has never worked because it was never finished. Blue Champions were never particularly competent in a tank role pre-HD and HD didn't get them to a competitive level either, same applies to pretty much every other off-spec at the time. Is the trait tree system itself at fault for this? No, it's the leadership at Turbine/SSG who failed by rushing such a massive feature and refusing to dedicate any real resources to it post release (also somewhat a dev issue, cappy dev was incompetent). This is pretty much why I'm against all this "We should just try to give them really small changes to make to try fix class balance" stuff, that's literally what has been going on for the past 7 years and it blatantly hasn't done a single iota of good.

The only way LOTRO will EVER see an improvement in regards to class balance is if people collectively put their foot down and tell them to actually put some effort into it. Anything else is just gonna result in perpetuating the status quo.