Design Fail in the Traceries of New LIs - Levelling up can be a downgrade

[Fegefeuer]

Yesterday I checked the library and the hunter traceries (but I guess this applies to all of them) and it took me a few minutes to notice this fail in the design. I have no idea how this could be solved considering how you have built the system, so I'm not pretending to solve the problem in this thread, only pointing it, you'll see if you want to do something.

So, traceries are divided in green, purple, blue and gold. Ignore generic stats, focus only in the %. These are the same in every level. For example, level 50 tracery has same damage % as level 130 tracery. You got me? Right. This sounds fine because you prevent grinds to people who return. The problem is the maximum level.

With the maximum level, you make players who level up to downgrade their capabilities for a while until they can farm again traceries at the same tier. For example, level 95 player with full golden traceries have the best % according to tiered traceries, but if this player levels to 96, then the traceries become deactivated (I guess) and the fastest traceries to get are not golden, obviously. (Actually I don't remember if for this example it would be like this, if the example is wrong with the numbers, I think you got the idea that this can happen).

However, if you remove the max level of the traceries, then people could get low level traceries for the percentages, so I guess you don't want people to use low level traceries on cap content.

But do you see the problem? Low level players can potentially have better LIs, at least according to the class %, than cap players.

I would say that a way to "solve" this would be with dps increase to compensate the % loss, but it's not only percentages, because traceries also reduce the seconds of inductions and cooldowns, so no idea.

And ultimately, the 121 traceries have a cap level of 140 if I remember well, while the Gundabad traceries have a cap level of 150. The other day I made a thread asking what is the point with people farming morgul traceries if gundabad is so close, and they said me that morgul traceries can be upgraded up to 499 or something. But now I ask again, what is the point of farming morgul traceries if gundabad traceries will last until level 150? Obviously gundabad traceries are better just because the max level, so people are wasting scripts now. Although because gundabad traceries require gundabad fragments I suppose nothing can be done (just talking about blue/golden here).

No idea how you could solve this design fail because either options are a fail, so I just don't know. If the old non imbued LIs also had this problem, then you copied this problem in the new LIs.

[Frisco]

Yesterday I checked the library and the hunter traceries (but I guess this applies to all of them) and it took me a few minutes to notice this fail in the design. I have no idea how this could be solved considering how you have built the system, so I'm not pretending to solve the problem in this thread, only pointing it, you'll see if you want to do something.

So, traceries are divided in green, purple, blue and gold. Ignore generic stats, focus only in the %. These are the same in every level. For example, level 50 tracery has same damage % as level 130 tracery. You got me? Right. This sounds fine because you prevent grinds to people who return. The problem is the maximum level.

With the maximum level, you make players who level up to downgrade their capabilities for a while until they can farm again traceries at the same tier. For example, level 95 player with full golden traceries have the best % according to tiered traceries, but if this player levels to 96, then the traceries become deactivated (I guess) and the fastest traceries to get are not golden, obviously. (Actually I don't remember if for this example it would be like this, if the example is wrong with the numbers, I think you got the idea that this can happen).

However, if you remove the max level of the traceries, then people could get low level traceries for the percentages, so I guess you don't want people to use low level traceries on cap content.

But do you see the problem? Low level players can potentially have better LIs, at least according to the class %, than cap players.

I would say that a way to "solve" this would be with dps increase to compensate the % loss, but it's not only percentages, because traceries also reduce the seconds of inductions and cooldowns, so no idea.

And ultimately, the 121 traceries have a cap level of 140 if I remember well, while the Gundabad traceries have a cap level of 150. The other day I made a thread asking what is the point with people farming morgul traceries if gundabad is so close, and they said me that morgul traceries can be upgraded up to 499 or something. But now I ask again, what is the point of farming morgul traceries if gundabad traceries will last until level 150? Obviously gundabad traceries are better just because the max level, so people are wasting scripts now. I don't know if gundabad traceries will also use morgul fragments or whatever is called for the blue and golden traceries, although I read from somewhere in the forums that supposedly yes (don't take this as for sure, I can't confirm it).

No idea how you could solve this design fail because either options are a fail, so I just don't know. If the old non imbued LIs also had this problem, then you copied this problem in the new LIs.

I don't know that traceries are actually deactivated. I know the red border indicates that they are, but I didn't notice any loss of effectiveness when they were. Maybe it's just so you can't add more enhancement runes to it?

Don't know. I can't see any reason they should deactivate. The secondary stats you get from traceries are significant enough to encourage upgrading.

[Fegefeuer]

I don't know that traceries are actually deactivated. I know the red border indicates that they are, but I didn't notice any loss of effectiveness when they were. Maybe it's just so you can't add more enhancement runes to it?

Don't know. I can't see any reason they should deactivate. The secondary stats you get from traceries are significant enough to encourage upgrading.

I also don't know if they are deactivated but supposedly you cannot equip them. People who have tried are welcome to share your discoveries!

[Joedangod]

They get deactivated but honestly you barely feel it when levelling since you get the ability to reforge at the lockout level. So %'s drop...but for the most part damage goes up anyway.

[Bragolos]

Yesterday I checked the library and the hunter traceries (but I guess this applies to all of them) and it took me a few minutes to notice this fail in the design. I have no idea how this could be solved considering how you have built the system, so I'm not pretending to solve the problem in this thread, only pointing it, you'll see if you want to do something.

So, traceries are divided in green, purple, blue and gold. Ignore generic stats, focus only in the %. These are the same in every level. For example, level 50 tracery has same damage % as level 130 tracery. You got me? Right. This sounds fine because you prevent grinds to people who return. The problem is the maximum level.

With the maximum level, you make players who level up to downgrade their capabilities for a while until they can farm again traceries at the same tier. For example, level 95 player with full golden traceries have the best % according to tiered traceries, but if this player levels to 96, then the traceries become deactivated (I guess) and the fastest traceries to get are not golden, obviously. (Actually I don't remember if for this example it would be like this, if the example is wrong with the numbers, I think you got the idea that this can happen).

However, if you remove the max level of the traceries, then people could get low level traceries for the percentages, so I guess you don't want people to use low level traceries on cap content.

But do you see the problem? Low level players can potentially have better LIs, at least according to the class %, than cap players.

I would say that a way to "solve" this would be with dps increase to compensate the % loss, but it's not only percentages, because traceries also reduce the seconds of inductions and cooldowns, so no idea.

And ultimately, the 121 traceries have a cap level of 140 if I remember well, while the Gundabad traceries have a cap level of 150. The other day I made a thread asking what is the point with people farming morgul traceries if gundabad is so close, and they said me that morgul traceries can be upgraded up to 499 or something. But now I ask again, what is the point of farming morgul traceries if gundabad traceries will last until level 150? Obviously gundabad traceries are better just because the max level, so people are wasting scripts now. Although because gundabad traceries require gundabad fragments I suppose nothing can be done (just talking about blue/golden here).

No idea how you could solve this design fail because either options are a fail, so I just don't know. If the old non imbued LIs also had this problem, then you copied this problem in the new LIs.

I have thought about the Gundabad problem as well. I think it comes down to the following question: will the old Imbued LI's appraise to Gundabad Fragments (instead of Morgul ones) when you wait with appraising until you reach level 131? I guess they will not (unless SSG likes the outrage this will incur). So assuming you'll still only get Morgul Fragments, you're not really wasting anything at this moment. One could still wait and start building lvl 131 weapons with lvl 131 traceries on november 10th, but it would likely take way too much time to earn enough Gundabad Fragments.

Still, no doubt a lot of endgame players will still be replacing their current Morgul traceries with Gundabad traceries step by step in the months after Gundabad release. Although the knowledge of getting this weird overlapping situation again when in a few years the level cap will raise to 150 is just.... weird. No idea why the Gundabad traceries have a level span of 20 as well. Perhaps I do not understand the system well enough, but it implies that, in theory, you could skip the Gundabad tier completely and just wait until the lvl 141 tier becomes available in a few years.

[Fegefeuer]

Someone in worldchat also said that Cordovan said that the traceries get disabled, so there it is.

The issue is not just with damage %, as I say, there are many traceries with cooldown/induction reductions, speed buffs or healing, like the LM induction reducer tracery, burglar sneak speed, or hunter press onward healing.

In fact I think right now gundabad traceries are more valuable than morgul traceries just because max level of gundabad traceries is 150.

[DKenny]

Essentially you are correct - when you move up to the next level range, you could actually be losing ground if you're forced to downgrade the colour (gold to cyan, cyan to purple....). And yes, you are correct that people probably shouldn't be spending everything they get from conversion now, but saving as much script as possible for later. However, with a relatively low cap, and conversion putting people way over the cap, there's a tendency to want to spend down now because otherwise you'll not be able to get script from any other source. The cap should definitely be increased, at least double if not triple or more.

[daemonied]

Raninia said that traceries don't get disabled.

The exception with the 121-130 level range is that you can level your tracery into the next range, not that it keeps working into the next range. All traceries work into the subsequent level range, and aren't disabled there.

[Ewie]

Well if I have a real or gold tracery with a certain % , when Gundabad launch I can then decide if i want to replace this tracery with a Purple where the primary stat % say damage of 35% is now
30% but the secondary stats like Physical Mastery is more. Or I can wait till I get a Equivalent tracery - Which will mean I will have lover Physical Mastery until I get the new one .

That is for the player to decide -

[Joedangod]

Raninia said that traceries don't get disabled.

That quote pretty clearly says that traceries do get disabled outside of their level range.

[daemonied]

That quote pretty clearly says that traceries do get disabled outside of their level range.

How do you get that from this "All traceries work into the subsequent level range, and aren't disabled there."? From what I understand, he basically says all traceries work once you outlevel them and the exception with the 121 traceries is that you can upgrade them into the next level range (up to 499 vs 449, I assume with both 121 and 131 level runes), which you cannot do with the other traceries.

[Joedangod]

How do you get that from this "All traceries work into the subsequent level range, and aren't disabled there."?

Because that's what it says.

Traceries work into the subsequent level range (i.e. traceries earned from 130 cap content have a 121-140 level range on them). Outside of their level range traceries do get disabled (I would know, I've pushed my Brawler up to level 121 so far and had traceries disabled on me multiple times now).

I think you've gotten a bit confused by overlapping terminology. When Raninia said 121-130 level range he wasn't talking about the level range on the traceries, just the level range they were earned at. Morgul traceries are earned from 121-130 content, Gundabad traceries will be earned from 131-140 content.

[daemonied]

Because that's what it says.

Traceries work into the subsequent level range (i.e. traceries earned from 130 cap content have a 121-140 level range on them). Outside of their level range traceries do get disabled (I would know, I've pushed my Brawler up to level 121 so far and had traceries disabled on me multiple times now).

I think you've gotten a bit confused by overlapping terminology. When Raninia said 121-130 level range he wasn't talking about the level range on the traceries, just the level range they were earned at. Morgul traceries are earned from 121-130 content, Gundabad traceries will be earned from 131-140 content.

yeah, I misunderstood what he meant with the "subsequent level range", makes sense now, thanks!

[Gunhard]

With next level range you add more ratings when lose some % from traceries. Depends on ratings loss might be not that big. For morgul traceries it might be hard to decide though, if you want to go from golden morgul to purple gundabad. But also not a problem for many since most ppl have teal morgul and it will be probably better to swap it to purple gundabad, maybe except cd reduction ones. Will see how it works. We were losing numbers before with every new cap anyway coz of bumped ratings until increase of lis level come into play.

I dont see fail in design, its just the same way like gear sets work now, you get over the max level and it doesnt work. But before we could stack crystals and soe to level up lis immediately with new cap, when now actually need to play content on new cap to increase li efficiency. If traceries arent super hard to obtain its not a problem. Also its better now coz we have the same li system from the start to the cap compared to what we had before with old li system and imbue system when you had to swap stuff on most classes to be most effective since some legacies were too good pre imbue. Overall new li system looks refreshing for me, i like essence system more.

[Omen_Kaizer]

In fact I think right now gundabad traceries are more valuable than morgul traceries just because max level of gundabad traceries is 150.

Gundabad traceries will be more valuable, but that value will only be realized in 2023 or whenever the 150 level cap is released. For the near future, farming for golds now is better than farming for golds in a month, just because it's easier for the same benefit (for at least a year). And we'll naturally accrue Gundabad golds before Harad or whatever's next.

And yes, you are correct that people probably shouldn't be spending everything they get from conversion now, but saving as much script as possible for later.

Probably, but because golds are raining from SS and Ivar farms which makes bartering for teals (which will be just as good as Gundabad teals for the entire next level cap) wasteful.

[OghranNasty]

I have thought about the Gundabad problem as well. I think it comes down to the following question: will the old Imbued LI's appraise to Gundabad Fragments (instead of Morgul ones) when you wait with appraising until you reach level 131?

That has been answered by Vastin: no. You will not get better results by postponing appraisals.

[DKenny]

That has been answered by Vastin: no. You will not get better results by postponing appraisals.

That's true with respect to future cap increases. It has been confirmed that for purposes of conversion, the results for character level 131+ will be exactly the same as at 130. However, there is considerable advantage to holding off at lower levels, until the next higher level range is reached. For example, much better to convert at character level 121 than 120.

[jeffryl]

That has been answered by Vastin: no. You will not get better results by postponing appraisals.

It was obvious otherwise it would have been an epic fail from SSG. That make no sens to not play the game as devellopers intended and get our gear with 0 effort put in it. Farming is a core game feature in lotro and all mmorpg.

[EasternSUn]

How was this any different than the old pre Imbued system? First age level 65 was a reset to 3rd age level 66. This time you get to at least keep your traceries even though they are not as strong if you didn't get the mats before hand. NO RNG on what legacies are on the weapon. The only issue i'm seeing is that current quests are all RNG for traceries given for the EPIC basically playing the lotto if your teal traceries are what you want.

[DKenny]

How was this any different than the old pre Imbued system?

The old LI system didn't have your legacies become disabled when your character levelled up.

...First age level 65 was a reset to 3rd age level 66...

Now do level 85 vs. 86.

[Fegefeuer]

I think with percentages based on damage, the generic stat like mastery can compensate, but there is no way to compensate percentages based on cooldown reductions or speed.

Yes, this looks like a design fail based on the old LI system, with the adding that now traceries get disabled.

I've been playing MM these days and the fact that traceries dropped and as quest reward are random, it's really bad. I feel really lazy to have to get 12 or 13 traceries per character at every new limit also forced because if I level up, the traceries will be disabled. I was going to do it already but after this, even more sure... I have 10 chars, I already bought 8 tortoises :/

[Fegefeuer]

I have a suggestion just in case. If you are using the old LI system as inspiration, then use this system.

Make new LIs reforges not going directly to your level, but to a selected level. Make traceries max level related to weapon level, not character level. This way people could have lower level LIs with the old traceries and choose not to downgrade. With current system, leveling the character feels like punishment :/

[LadySelene]

Yeah, it would be better (if you insist on using lower-level LI with non-disabled skill buffs, you get much lower DPS), but I'm afraid those decisions should have been made BEFORE the feature went to development.

Currently it feels similar to, if IRL you suddenly hit 40, you cannot use your old phone anymore.

Traceries in itself - their "resource-light" yellow or purple versions - turned out not to be a problem, Mommy Hunter runs 50 level school for exactly 2 minutes and gets 100 scripts out of it. Or, valared LM with valar gear and old imbued LI (I don't have VIP unlocks on her so cannot reforge the new LI, and as I got loads of things to do with other characters, I leave her alone) runs 121 school for herself (for somewhat longer) and gets a free teal tracery at the end. Try to get a group to farm School for lower-level traceries, or use simple yellows before getting serious closer to end game?

[Mirhaen]

I think with percentages based on damage, the generic stat like mastery can compensate, but there is no way to compensate percentages based on cooldown reductions or speed.

Not really because I assume that most players would more likely have mastery cap and meet with Diminishing Returns effects. It is also very different thing to lose % on your best damage skills in comparison with having some more mastery.

[DKenny]

I have a suggestion just in case. If you are using the old LI system as inspiration, then use this system.

Make new LIs reforges not going directly to your level, but to a selected level. Make traceries max level related to weapon level, not character level. This way people could have lower level LIs with the old traceries and choose not to downgrade. With current system, leveling the character feels like punishment :/

The simpler solution is just to remove the level range on traceries so that they never become disabled. They would have a max item level based on their original level, but the incentive for obtaining new traceries would be to progress stats further, not that your LI is crippled because traceries cease functioning above a certain level. It seems they prefer the stick approach rather than the carrot.