PvMP Update and Changes

[-Aran-]

4. Store buffs
Ideally, store buffs that affect combat (especially tomes of defence) should not be usable in pvp zones because freeps can buy them with gold and creeps can only buy them from the store; but I assume that’s not happening.

You forget that freeps have to pay for PvMP every month. I think they should get a small advantage at some points. (like store buffs)

...Or PvMP should be free for everyone.

[Constrictions]

IIRC either Kelsen or Orion reduced the total number of NPC's inside keeps by about 30%, including the NPC's on TA's bridges by about 25%, along with a nerf to their power, which I'm quite sure corresponded with taking the capture flags off of TA's bridges.

I actually like the general idea of backdoors. If the door on the outside could be positioned to be a moderate distance away from their keep (as opposed to on one of the walls) and only usable out of combat I think this will fix any issues with them.

[Constrictions]

I don't think outposts are something I would miss and definitely don't want to see more of them. In a contested fight, outposts can be a determining factor because they're not only a buff to one side but also a nerf to the other if they don't have them. Many nights will simply be riding around the map for freeps flipping OP's where on creepside a warg mapping around can do it solo. If both sides get caught up in this side game it's just a lot of time wasted on pointless pve.

If they were kept in game as quest rewards without the damage buffs, or their defenders buffed so it would at least take a six man to defeat them it would feel more aligned with the idea of fighting over objectives. Currently they're just swapped back and forth unopposed at the cost of a lot of riding around.

And also as smoke signals to the other side that we're out there because castles AUTOFLIP so they are no longer any indication of the enemy's presence.

Well, consider the point of outposts.

They were always meant to be an objective that causes people to leave the straightline shuffle from Grams<->Lug<->OC<->TA<->EC<->TR<->GV, and a way to give smaller groups something to fight over while the main zerg is shuffling back and forth between friendly NPC's.

With that purpose in mind, I don't think we want them to go away, especially if we can get Fants to change EC/OC and lug rez back to their original locations and buff the hell out of TA's npcs.

Rather, maybe we want them to be positioned better, or have a rethink about what they do.


For a similar example, let's consider for a moment the incentive structure around keep buffs; let's ignore the fact that they are wayyyy too big from base rewards. It is absolutely terrible - it encourages people to stick in massive zergs and quit when it gets hard.
Say I am on the losing faction and pushed right back to GV/grams. Every kill I get, there's 10 of us dying, and each kill we get is at a fraction of the reward that the winning faction is getting. What reason is there for me to stick around?

Instead of getting bonuses to inf/renown for having keeps, you should get bonuses to inf/renown for not having keeps, while keeps should do something else. This would encourage people to stick it out even though the going is tough. Some degree of thought like this needs to occur for OP's. There needs to be better incentive structure for map objectives than simply mindless renown/inf and mastery bonuses.

[Fants_SSG]

I ended up removing the backdoors altogether instead of fixing them due to the responses in this thread. Unfortunately, I ran into some issues with the Audacity costing so instead of releasing Audacity half baked for the creeps, I am refraining from expanding upon it for next bullroarer. Audacity will remain as it was previously for creeps, for the time being.

RE: to all the people asking for map changes - It's not easily reverted without reimplementing a bunch of bug fixing. It's better suited to a future update. Rest assured, it's on our radar.

[0987654321]

I ended up removing the backdoors altogether instead of fixing them due to the responses in this thread. Unfortunately, I ran into some issues with the Audacity costing so instead of releasing Audacity half baked for the creeps, I am refraining from expanding upon it for next bullroarer. Audacity will remain as it was previously for creeps, for the time being.

RE: to all the people asking for map changes - It's not easily reverted without reimplementing a bunch of bug fixing. It's better suited to a future update. Rest assured, it's on our radar.

thank you. good stuff

[ConsistentRager]

I ended up removing the backdoors altogether instead of fixing them due to the responses in this thread. Unfortunately, I ran into some issues with the Audacity costing so instead of releasing Audacity half baked for the creeps, I am refraining from expanding upon it for next bullroarer. Audacity will remain as it was previously for creeps, for the time being.

RE: to all the people asking for map changes - It's not easily reverted without reimplementing a bunch of bug fixing. It's better suited to a future update. Rest assured, it's on our radar.

Awesome!!! I am really looking forward to fighting without backdoors again. I assume the creep aud system will be in place by the time the exp comes out right? also, is there anything specially you would like us as players to test this upcoming beta?

Thank you!

[venyos]

I ended up removing the backdoors altogether instead of fixing them due to the responses in this thread. Unfortunately, I ran into some issues with the Audacity costing so instead of releasing Audacity half baked for the creeps, I am refraining from expanding upon it for next bullroarer. Audacity will remain as it was previously for creeps, for the time being.

RE: to all the people asking for map changes - It's not easily reverted without reimplementing a bunch of bug fixing. It's better suited to a future update. Rest assured, it's on our radar.

Awesome!!
I hope you will try to revert map OC\EC\Respawn positons to old places.

Thank you!

[Urundus]

I ended up removing the backdoors altogether instead of fixing them due to the responses in this thread. Unfortunately, I ran into some issues with the Audacity costing so instead of releasing Audacity half baked for the creeps, I am refraining from expanding upon it for next bullroarer. Audacity will remain as it was previously for creeps, for the time being.

RE: to all the people asking for map changes - It's not easily reverted without reimplementing a bunch of bug fixing. It's better suited to a future update. Rest assured, it's on our radar.

Thank you, this is great news. It's understandable that landscape changes are more difficult to implement.
Though on the point of making keeps more defendable. Would it be possible to buff the NPC's within keeps a bit? They currently provide no defensive gradient at all.
Another interesting point which hasn't come up yet in this thread would be to increase NPC aggro range inside keeps. The current way to enter/take a keep is to just storm in and run all the way to the top ignoring all the NPC's. This is because once you make it to the top you've lost aggro on 90% of all the NPC's in the keep. If those keep NPC's had a larger aggro range and would stay aggro'd to a target throughout the entire keep this would turn them in a bigger defensive hurdle. You wouldn't mindlessly run into a keep anymore knowing you would pull and keep aggro on every NPC throughout the entire keep.

[Spilo]

I ended up removing the backdoors altogether instead of fixing them due to the responses in this thread. Unfortunately, I ran into some issues with the Audacity costing so instead of releasing Audacity half baked for the creeps, I am refraining from expanding upon it for next bullroarer. Audacity will remain as it was previously for creeps, for the time being.

RE: to all the people asking for map changes - It's not easily reverted without reimplementing a bunch of bug fixing. It's better suited to a future update. Rest assured, it's on our radar.

[ConsistentRager]

Thank you, this is great news. It's understandable that landscape changes are more difficult to implement.
Though on the point of making keeps more defendable. Would it be possible to buff the NPC's within keeps a bit? They currently provide no defensive gradient at all.
Another interesting point which hasn't come up yet in this thread would be to increase NPC aggro range inside keeps. The current way to enter/take a keep is to just storm in and run all the way to the top ignoring all the NPC's. This is because once you make it to the top you've lost aggro on 90% of all the NPC's in the keep. If those keep NPC's had a larger aggro range and would stay aggro'd to a target throughout the entire keep this would turn them in a bigger defensive hurdle. You wouldn't mindlessly run into a keep anymore knowing you would pull and keep aggro on every NPC throughout the entire keep.

Agreed, keeps currently are defensively weak when they should be points to retreat to. npcs need an insane buff to make them viable against either side.

[Saruman_Of_Numbers]

I ended up removing the backdoors altogether instead of fixing them due to the responses in this thread

[LagunaD2]

You wouldn't mindlessly run into a keep anymore knowing you would pull and keep aggro on every NPC throughout the entire keep.

If flopping is still allowed (it has been greatly restricted in PvE, but I haven't been to the Moors in years, so I don't know...), you would.

[0987654321]

If flopping is still allowed (it has been greatly restricted in PvE, but I haven't been to the Moors in years, so I don't know...), you would.

flop also has only a 30s CD i believe(might have been slightly changed with the LI revamp, i havent look at mini stuff). so drop pulling with minis and burgs would still remain a problem. you could maybe tie the CG/tyrants aggro to all keep npc's too? or at least the upper floors

[Snowlock]

I ended up removing the backdoors altogether instead of fixing them due to the responses in this thread. Unfortunately, I ran into some issues with the Audacity costing so instead of releasing Audacity half baked for the creeps, I am refraining from expanding upon it for next bullroarer. Audacity will remain as it was previously for creeps, for the time being.

RE: to all the people asking for map changes - It's not easily reverted without reimplementing a bunch of bug fixing. It's better suited to a future update. Rest assured, it's on our radar.

Fantastic news Fant! What about with autoflips, increase the duration timer to 12 hours or something like that, if it can't be removed.

[hunter4215]

+1 to backdoor change, Ty for your efforts. I hope the wider team realizes views/engagement on this thread and this PvP work is ongoing.

Reposting two other PvMP related threads that I think would be decent QoF changes that I haven't seen shared yet.

• Moors Specific Traceries - We used to have these pre-LI update. Would love to see a revamp of some.
• Moors Carry All

[auximenes]

I haven't been to the 'Moors in so long I could even come close to telling you what the level cap was a the time but this fresh work on the 'Moors has piqued my interest again. I suspect many other grognards will be enticed to dip into the 'Moors again too.

[Snowlock]

IIRC either Kelsen or Orion reduced the total number of NPC's inside keeps by about 30%, including the NPC's on TA's bridges by about 25%, along with a nerf to their power, which I'm quite sure corresponded with taking the capture flags off of TA's bridges.

Kelsan. Orion was let go in the layoffs following ROR (maybe HD, but I think ROR). Shuffles were a problem then, like now. but they were the EC/TA shuffle instead, so to remove it, they moved EC and OC and nerfed castle npcs. It worked in that it removed the EC/TA shuffle, but it's not like it removed the concept of shuffles all together. I don't recall if backdoors were added at the same time, but it was def in the same time frame.

In asking for EC back where it was and castle npcs buffed, we risk that shuffle cropping up again. I'm not sure it will, and even if it does I'm not sure I'm against it, but it's a possibility. Swapping Poor TA and Crude TA would probably help mitigate the shuffle.

[hunter4215]

RE: to all the people asking for map changes - It's not easily reverted without reimplementing a bunch of bug fixing. It's better suited to a future update. Rest assured, it's on our radar.

What about changes to existing mechanics within the map? There's no strategy or reasoning for having certain outposts or landmarks beyond points, which needs to be addressed.

All DoF buffs give a flat Renown/Infamy buff, and all outpost a flat mastery buff. It'd be nice to have some incentives that X outpost is better to have over another. And the same with DoF buffs and Keeps. It'd be nice if the renown/infamy buffs were completely taken out. It's a little ridiculous how one side can gain 400 for a kill and the other like 80 - all based on population.

Re: Points - If there's gating on gear, it'd be nice to meet the realistic expectations. Most servers have incredibly low PvMP populations and unless there's a major revival in population for PvMP players, it's going to be pretty impossible for some servers to obtain gear.

[hunter4215]

Kelsan. Orion was let go in the layoffs following ROR (maybe HD, but I think ROR). Shuffles were a problem then, like now. but they were the EC/TA shuffle instead, so to remove it, they moved EC and OC and nerfed castle npcs. It worked in that it removed the EC/TA shuffle, but it's not like it removed the concept of shuffles altogether. I don't recall if backdoors were added at the same time, but it was def in the same time frame.

In asking for EC back where it was and castle npcs buffed, we risk that shuffle cropping up again. I'm not sure it will, and even if it does I'm not sure I'm against it, but it's a possibility. Swapping Poor TA and Crude TA would probably help mitigate the shuffle.

Shuffles will always exist. It's not based on any kind of landscape issue, but 100% player nature. If you removed the landscape of the entire moors except for GV and Grams, you'd still have a shuffle. Having decent leaders on both sides help negate this issue, but it will always exist.

The old EC + STAB/TA and WTAB + OC shuffles were much different than the ones you have today because the one's today are solely based on one-shot protection. It made TA important, but also centralized fighting. Most of the population was a center map, with both sides having similar proximity to rez. Even the shuffles back then could end with a zerg but didn't always because NPC's mattered.

[ChaChaLoco]

I ended up removing the backdoors altogether instead of fixing them due to the responses in this thread. Unfortunately, I ran into some issues with the Audacity costing so instead of releasing Audacity half baked for the creeps, I am refraining from expanding upon it for next bullroarer. Audacity will remain as it was previously for creeps, for the time being.

RE: to all the people asking for map changes - It's not easily reverted without reimplementing a bunch of bug fixing. It's better suited to a future update. Rest assured, it's on our radar.

Absolutely fantastic, that is such a positive change. I'll also add my vote to putting Elf Camp and Orc Camp and the spawn points back to where they used to be.

In terms of Keeps, Camps and Outposts. I offer the following suggestions.

1. I would remove the Outpost buffs.
2. I would significantly buff the NPCs such that flipping Tol Ascarnen requires 24 players, Lugazag and Tirith Rhaw require 18, Lumber Camp, Isendeep Mine, Ost Ringdyr and Dar Gazag require 12, and each Outpost requires 6.
3. I would put the Outposts back in their original positions and re-implement the fifth Outpost which was removed.
4. I would tie each Outpost to a Keep (Tol Ascarnen, Lugazag, Tirith Rhaw, Lumber Camp and Isendeep Mine), if the Outpost is controlled by a faction other than the faction which controls the Keep, then the Keep NPCs are debuffed to a degree which is equivalent of reducing the players required to capture the Keep by 6 (e.g. Tol Ascarnen would now require only 18 players to capture instead of 24, etc.).
5. I would reimplement the flags in Tol Ascarnen, Lugazag and Tirith Rhaw - the way these Keeps would now be captured is as follows: (a) players clear the Tyrant/Captain-General room; (b) a player 'uses' the flag, engaging in a reasonably long induction (which can be interrupted); (c) the flag is 'flipped' and an announcement goes out across the zone that the Keep is contested; (d) the opposing faction now has 5 minutes (10 minutes for Tol Ascarnen) to respond and defend the Keep; (e) the defenders can prevent the Keep from flipping by 'using' the flag, which has a reasonably long induction which can be interrupted (but probably not as long as the induction to initiate the capture attempt); (f) if the attacking players control the Outpost linked to the Keep, then the time it takes for the Keep to flip is halved (so Tol Ascarnen would flip after 5 minutes instead of 10).

The above might make the points a bit more strategic and interesting to capture/fight over. Currently, it tends to be the case that a Creep raid will fight a Freep raid somewhere (not necessarily a Keep) and the winner of the engagement will quickly run around and capture all the Keeps, and the loser will, like a game of whack-a-mole, subsequently flip them all back to their side. It becomes mostly tedious and the only reason PvMPers even bother engaging in it is because of the +20% Infamy/Renown buff attached to the Keeps (which, I'll note, is something I am sceptical of).

[Snowlock]

[*] I would significantly buff the NPCs such that flipping Tol Ascarnen requires 24 players, Lugazag and Tirith Rhaw require 18, Lumber Camp, Isendeep Mine, Ost Ringdyr and Dar Gazag require 12, and each Outpost requires 6.

I would half these values for TA considering low pop servers and the desire to remove autoflips in conjunction with the upgrades. Rather the number of players as a guiding principal, give them mechanics that would require above average healing and tanking strats to be successful. A bleed that requires a tank swap or something of this nature. Maybe an enrage timer.

[*] I would reimplement the flags in Tol Ascarnen, Lugazag and Tirith Rhaw - the way these Keeps would now be captured is as follows: (a) players clear the Tyrant/Captain-General room; (b) a player 'uses' the flag, engaging in a reasonably long induction (which can be interrupted); (c) the flag is 'flipped' and an announcement goes out across the zone that the Keep is contested; (d) the opposing faction now has 5 minutes (10 minutes for Tol Ascarnen) to respond and defend the Keep; (e) the defenders can prevent the Keep from flipping by 'using' the flag, which has a reasonably long induction which can be interrupted (but probably not as long as the induction to initiate the capture attempt); (f) if the attacking players control the Outpost linked to the Keep, then the time it takes for the Keep to flip is halved (so Tol Ascarnen would flip after 5 minutes instead of 10).

If they were to keep outposts I'd rather they had the old hotspot mechanic where the outposts controlled by the same faction affects the difficulty of a keep take. Increase NPS, or increase the efficacy of NPCs, or add or remove dread, strengthen or weaken arrows and oil. Etc.

If they add difficulty in taking the Keep with everything else as it is now, I don't think it would be necessary and might be too much to add the flag mechanic back in. The thrill of killing the CG while the keep is defended and your enemy is all over you and you're about to fall and the last second the keep flips and starts saving you can be an exciting moment and I'd rather not lose that with an additional step.

[ConsistentRager]

Hello,

I was playing warleader on live and I realized imposing presence is still out of group aoe buffs with limit targets. This means you can use Imposing presence the middle of a group of 7 people and have all the buffs go to the other people and have nothing land on yourself. This happened during the brief time where warleaders skills were set to out of group. If you do any bug fixing on this next beta could you make imposing presence back in group please. This is just a QoL change for the class because it is annoying when your buffs go to random people outside you group and not yourself.

thank you.

[danr607]

I ended up removing the backdoors altogether instead of fixing them due to the responses in this thread. Unfortunately, I ran into some issues with the Audacity costing so instead of releasing Audacity half baked for the creeps, I am refraining from expanding upon it for next bullroarer. Audacity will remain as it was previously for creeps, for the time being.

RE: to all the people asking for map changes - It's not easily reverted without reimplementing a bunch of bug fixing. It's better suited to a future update. Rest assured, it's on our radar.

Thank you!!!

Also, please bring back old Plains Outpost!

This may have been asked before, but if EC/OC is moving, will Lugz and TR rezz move back to the original positions? Will the outposts also be moved back?

[Areyekuwe]

You forget that freeps have to pay for PvMP every month. I think they should get a small advantage at some points. (like store buffs)

...Or PvMP should be free for everyone.

There is no 100% free lunch anywhere. And we all get to pay, here and there.

Freeps will always have some way of connecting their PvE side into their PvP side, just because PvE side was, is and will likely be 99% of the whole game.
Somewhere i read a post telling devs that something "needs to be done" about champs, hunters and all of them.
And our dedicated dev took time to explain in this thread:
No, PvE will not be changed for PvP ballance.
Myself i think that considering size of the map, any such request will really not be treated serious, i would assume.

There is however a monster play effect which enables / disables / scales freeps that enter into moors.... But seriously defence tomes?! let them have it :P

[Areyekuwe]

I ended up removing the backdoors altogether instead of fixing them due to the responses in this thread. Unfortunately, I ran into some issues with the Audacity costing so instead of releasing Audacity half baked for the creeps, I am refraining from expanding upon it for next bullroarer. Audacity will remain as it was previously for creeps, for the time being.

RE: to all the people asking for map changes - It's not easily reverted without reimplementing a bunch of bug fixing. It's better suited to a future update. Rest assured, it's on our radar.

Thank you for working on this. However as you and some of the people in this thread, for sure know. This is only a part of revitalizing of the whole moors.

For years it was moving in wrong direction like "oh, well there is not enough PvP, lets give them more PvE" "oh, keeps are not flippening' fast enough lets make it random fair for all flip"
-Bottom line should be, if people are not coming into moors, moors do not need to be made more random or simple, they need to be made more interesting. There needs to be more content, not less.

Defending and taking keeps should be more meaningfull and fun (which does not mean making it more simple, but the opposite of that actually).
-Getting rid of the auto-flip is the next good step.
This includes continuous look by devs at the landscape, keep bosses and non boss NPCes to keep their morale levels current.

However, some of the most embarassing conversations I had in the moors had to do with system yell "we lost lumber camp, maggots" (for example) and a returning old timer right away posting in group chat: "PORTING!" To which i am like: "hmm, hold it, it looks like auto flip, there are no freeps there..." And he is like: "what is auto flip??"