Question for the Dev Team Concerning Traceries

[soltasword]

It probably won't be a problem before 151, maybe even later because I still have plenty of AS from appraisal. But it worries me.

But it's a problem for every character that didn't have a LI to appraise at all. There are just not enough drops of traceries on landscape. And unless you run instances, dailies, missions everyday, you most likely aren't going to get enough ancient script to replace your traceries when they become USELESS. And you shouldn't have to run those just for a set of common/tier 1 traceries. They should be readily available running landscape. But they aren't.

[DKenny]

But it's a problem for every character that didn't have a LI to appraise at all. There are just not enough drops of traceries on landscape. And unless you run instances, dailies, missions everyday, you most likely aren't going to get enough ancient script to replace your traceries when they become USELESS. And you shouldn't have to run those just for a set of common/tier 1 traceries. They should be readily available running landscape. But they aren't.

They should have bottom tier traceries dropping like third age LI did previously. Maybe they need to create a "tier 0" tracery (grey) to fill that role.

[Fegefeuer]

They should have bottom tier traceries dropping like third age LI did previously. Maybe they need to create a "tier 0" tracery (grey) to fill that role.

It is still a nerf in the percentages. If you compare imbued with new system, green traceries are a nerf, and purple traceries are also a nerf for any person who used empowerments and maxed or near maxed the LIs. Purple traceries are only okay for characters who never used any empowerment at all. I don't recall the exact comparison but you can do anytime in the game. Just go to the library and compare imbued legacies with traceries percentages and you'll notice.

[wispsong]

But it's a problem for every character that didn't have a LI to appraise at all. There are just not enough drops of traceries on landscape. And unless you run instances, dailies, missions everyday, you most likely aren't going to get enough ancient script to replace your traceries when they become USELESS. And you shouldn't have to run those just for a set of common/tier 1 traceries. They should be readily available running landscape. But they aren't.

I totally agree with you. It is a flaw in the system. But for lots of us it will not become a problem before we spend all our AS from appraisal. For players on the legendary servers though...they start from scrap.

[wispsong]

They should have bottom tier traceries dropping like third age LI did previously. Maybe they need to create a "tier 0" tracery (grey) to fill that role.

With 4 tiers, I don't think we need another. They just need to make the lowest color available that way. Most players want better anyways and play end game. And those who pay real money won't be happy with yellow anyways.

They need to stop acting like landscape questers don't deserve anything but the least effective equipment without any way of improving. I'm sure that's why they killed guild crafting and connected their crafting update to end game requiring insane numbers of mats.

[DKenny]

With 4 tiers, I don't think we need another. They just need to make the lowest color available that way. Most players want better anyways and play end game. And those who pay real money won't be happy with yellow anyways.

They need to stop acting like landscape questers don't deserve anything but the least effective equipment without any way of improving. I'm sure that's why they killed guild crafting and connected their crafting update to end game requiring insane numbers of mats.

Sure. I certainly wouldn't object to the existing yellow traceries filling that role. I was just suggesting that, based on their calculations of how much grinding they want players to have to do, if yellow is too good to drop so easily there could be something super accessible to fill that role. The point is, players shouldn't be in the position of being unable to fill the slots in their new LI when their old ones are disabled due to level, even if they only do landscape / storyline quests.

Basically they do act as if "landscape questers don't deserve anything but the least effective equipment without any way of improving." Those shilling for the company have posted many times that reforging for DPS alone is sufficient.

[Fegefeuer]

Those shilling for the company have posted many times that reforging for DPS alone is sufficient.

That's not a LI then, it's just a normal weapon with a custom name if they have said this, it's amazing!

[DKenny]

That's not a LI then, it's just a normal weapon with a custom name if they have said this, it's amazing!

Well, for example this post:

They get deactivated but honestly you barely feel it when levelling since you get the ability to reforge at the lockout level. So %'s drop...but for the most part damage goes up anyway.

The "they" getting deactivated being referred to are traceries. So in other words, the claim is that simply reforging to increase the dps is more than sufficient to offset traceries becoming disabled due to the character exceeding the level range on them. Not an unique comment, just an example. According to a certain segment of players, casuals only need the dps so it's OK if they cannot get any traceries.

[Fegefeuer]

The "they" getting deactivated being referred to are traceries. So in other words, the claim is that simply reforging to increase the dps is more than sufficient to offset traceries becoming disabled due to the character exceeding the level range on them. Not an unique comment, just an example. According to a certain segment of players, casuals only need the dps so it's OK if they cannot get any traceries.

Yes, and these players keep ignoring the fact that percentages are not only dps increase. There are percentages related to induction reduction, character speed etc and those are nerfed and when traceries deactivate you get nerfed, in fact players will get nerfed in this no matter what because even raiders cannot get gold traceries in day 1 of expansion release so if raiders have gold traceries with top percentages they will see their skills nerfed, like sneak speed or induction reduction to name a few. And the fact that "casuals don't need this" is poor argument, I still use central gondor essences for fun purposes and one of the best essences ever made is that of guardian giving chance to movement speed buff after killing a mob, it's so much fun to do low lvl slayer deeds with that essence! This just been proof that things like speed buffs/induction reduction/etc are also wanted by casuals, just another example, the class I less play is LM because I really dislike inductions, there is a tracery that shorten the induction, if I get nerfed in this everytime the level cap raises and traceries are deactivated, I'd rather just stop playing that class. I play alts as casual and mostly solo play and when I check for builds, the pro raiders build are focused in different playstyles depending raid requeriment, in my case I mix builds and I pay a lot of attention to buffs like speed/induction/etc because I enjoy playing like this. For example, All the classes that can have a speed duration tracery or whatever, I've slotted that even if pro builds say it's useless. Or sneak speed in burg, or sneak speed in warden too iirc. Do I need that to play? No, but it's my playstyle, and getting nerfed in playstyle just leads to stop playing... or at least, cap the characters with tortoise so at least I can enjoy my playstyle without leveling up anymore.

[wispsong]

Yes, and these players keep ignoring the fact that percentages are not only dps increase. There are percentages related to induction reduction, character speed etc and those are nerfed and when traceries deactivate you get nerfed, in fact players will get nerfed in this no matter what because even raiders cannot get gold traceries in day 1 of expansion release so if raiders have gold traceries with top percentages they will see their skills nerfed, like sneak speed or induction reduction to name a few. And the fact that "casuals don't need this" is poor argument, I still use central gondor essences for fun purposes and one of the best essences ever made is that of guardian giving chance to movement speed buff after killing a mob, it's so much fun to do low lvl slayer deeds with that essence! This just been proof that things like speed buffs/induction reduction/etc are also wanted by casuals, just another example, the class I less play is LM because I really dislike inductions, there is a tracery that shorten the induction, if I get nerfed in this everytime the level cap raises and traceries are deactivated, I'd rather just stop playing that class. I play alts as casual and mostly solo play and when I check for builds, the pro raiders build are focused in different playstyles depending raid requeriment, in my case I mix builds and I pay a lot of attention to buffs like speed/induction/etc because I enjoy playing like this. For example, All the classes that can have a speed duration tracery or whatever, I've slotted that even if pro builds say it's useless. Or sneak speed in burg, or sneak speed in warden too iirc. Do I need that to play? No, but it's my playstyle, and getting nerfed in playstyle just leads to stop playing.

There is also a loss of mastery and crit which is very useful since landscape quest gear just doesn't give enough to come even close to cap. Add the lack of drops for these essences and low ranks on virtues. I really would like to know what they consider a weak, moderate, and strong character to be. I wouldn't dare take any of my alts even with the new LIs into 3 Peaks and Azog because their overall stats are just to bad. Can somebody just coming through MM in quest gear go directly into Gundanad?

[Daniyel]

I think you are wrong about how enhancement runes work (although maybe I'm also wrong but I think not). Basically enhancement runes are completely skippable because this is the "catch up" mechanic. As far as I understand, for example, Morgul traceries go until 449 rank or whatever you want to call it (I know it's until 499 for transition sake but keep reading), but as I say, Morgul traceries start at rank 400, and Gundabad traceries will start at rank 450 (afaik). This means that you can slot Morgul traceries and add enhancements until 449 or just slot Gundabad traceries and they will be 450 and no need to add any runes. So in the future, next tier will start at rank 500 and you can completely skip Gundabad. The fact that enhancement runes upgrade the slot and not the tracery is so the progress done in the tracery is not lost if you replace it.

So basically if we understand traceries = legacies and enhancement runes = scrolls, then they made the scrolls grind optional, but now the grind is having to grind the "legacies" like in the old times, with the difference that in old times, legacies came by default and if you wanted your desired legacies you just needed to deconstruct a few LIs and done, you can have it done in just 1h or even less if you are lucky. In new system you need to grind +10 traceries, and you are forced to do it because if not, then your LI will become what we could call a "normal weapon", like just dps but nothing else. This is basically a nerf in comparison with imbued system but I guess they have to force people to grind no matter what. People is still kind of blind because the system is new and they have kinda free weapons but give it time. It is a help for returning players who want to play again with the main and they are years behind. But it's a pain for people with many alts. Just imagine having to farm +10 traceries with 10 characters ...

@Soltasword who just posted while I was writing this "I see a mad rush to the store to buy the xp-disabler in the near future. Now if we only had a second pocket to carry that in." - bought 8 stones of tortoise when getting the new LIs

thank you for your insightful explanation. I think you're right about how the runes work. as for the traceries....as Gandalf said, "so do all who live to see such times but that is not for them to decide. all you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to you."

[Joedangod]

Yes, and these players keep ignoring the fact that percentages are not only dps increase. There are percentages related to induction reduction, character speed etc and those are nerfed and when traceries deactivate you get nerfed,

Can't say I've had golds getting deactivated on me yet, but so far not been a major issue with the purples/teals being deactivated as the only get deactivated at reforge thresholds. So yes, your % modifiers go down and some minor buffs lose potency but it happens at the same time you gain a large boost. I can't say I noticed any issues on that front whilst levelling, have you been experiencing an issue there yourself?

in fact players will get nerfed in this no matter what because even raiders cannot get gold traceries in day 1 of expansion release

Err...you can though. Traceries earned from one expansions level range are useable in the next expansions level range. The only loss is stat-related due to enhancement levels (although 121-140 traceries have the same enhancement cap as 131-150 traceries so no actual stat loss will occur in Gundabad).

if I get nerfed in this everytime the level cap raises and traceries are deactivated,

The system has a grace period, if you earned a tracery during one level cap that tracery will still function at the next level cap. You're really only going to see traceries getting deactivated if you're rapidly progressing through multiple level caps (and aren't stopping at each one). Awkward for power levelled toons I grant you, not all that messy on things levelled slowly.

[DKenny]

Can't say I've had golds getting deactivated on me yet, but so far not been a major issue with the purples/teals being deactivated as the only get deactivated at reforge thresholds. So yes, your % modifiers go down and some minor buffs lose potency but it happens at the same time you gain a large boost. I can't say I noticed any issues on that front whilst levelling, have you been experiencing an issue there yourself?......

So at what point are you saying you actually need traceries? For example, with the walls of Moria you get empty LI. Can you go through Moria with empty LI, simply reforging to boost dps at reforge points?

[Joedangod]

So at what point are you saying you actually need traceries? For example, with the walls of Moria you get empty LI. Can you go through Moria with empty LI, simply reforging to boost dps at reforge points?

Pretty sure I got ~2 traceries during Wall of Moria stuff. But yes, you can quite comfortably go through Moria with just that early stuff you get.


Perhaps worth noting that you don't get access to all tracery slots at low levels. The number of slots available increases based on reforge level.

[JERH]

I have a question for the Xperience disablers to get around tracery expiration. Why?

“ @Soltasword who just posted while I was writing this "I see a mad rush to the store to buy the xp-disabler in the near future. Now if we only had a second pocket to carry that in." - bought 8 stones of tortoise when getting the new LIs”

I have chars with them and have used them for specific reasons before.

If you use stones so as to not run repetitive content for AS/traceries (instances) then aren’t you stuck rerunning landscape (or your more favorite instances) content repetitively? I don’t personally see a huge difference as both are boringly repetitive so that is the reason for my question.

[Flaxie]

I have a question for the Xperience disablers to get around tracery expiration. Why?

“ @Soltasword who just posted while I was writing this "I see a mad rush to the store to buy the xp-disabler in the near future. Now if we only had a second pocket to carry that in." - bought 8 stones of tortoise when getting the new LIs”

I have chars with them and have used them for specific reasons before.

If you use stones so as to not run repetitive content for AS/traceries (instances) then aren’t you stuck rerunning landscape (or your more favorite instances) content repetitively? I don’t personally see a huge difference as both are boringly repetitive so that is the reason for my question.

I have run a lot of characters up through the lower levels. In the usual run of things, you out-level the area way before you finish it. With that happening, I see my chars getting to content that rewards traceries after the optimal level to use it. The stones may keep our chars working on areas more at-level than we have been, therefore making the tracery drops more appropriate. (at least, that's my hope. It's been years since I've run an area with white mobs)

[DKenny]

Pretty sure I got ~2 traceries during Wall of Moria stuff. But yes, you can quite comfortably go through Moria with just that early stuff you get.


Perhaps worth noting that you don't get access to all tracery slots at low levels. The number of slots available increases based on reforge level.

That doesn't really answer the question though. Can you literally go through Moria without any traceries? I understand that you're likely to get something along the way. However, the question was to do with a situation where you outlevel your traceries and haven't replaced them. Your claim was that, in that scenario, it's still OK just to reforge - i.e. dps only, no functional tracery (I'm assuming a disabled tracery is the same as no tracery at all).

[Dusalan]

I just had my first alt complete the new Walls of Moria intro , complete The Great Dwelling quests, and a couple of the initial Moria Epics.

1) Only traceries were received when getting the initial LIs from Hundi in Echad Dunnan (and completing the associated Walls of Moria trip to Rivendell) and Tulk at Durin's Threshhold.
2) Traceries received were: one Heraldry, two Word of Mastery, and a few yellow enhancement runes
3) No infused garnet drops in The Great Dwelling
4) No traceries or tracery boxes issued/earned/dropped
5) No enhancement runes issued/earned/dropped
6) New LI damage and bonuses are roughly equal to a L25 old LI from Hundi and Tulk (compared against another alt on another server that still had their Hundi and Tulk initial old LIs)
7) New LI's damage and bonuses are only slightly better than landscape items earned (either from quests or from the half orcs) in the Wall of Moria intro (checked alts inventory and compared)
8) New LI's damage roughly equal to a L51 crafted weapon with a crafting critical and is worse than a L54 crafted weapon with no critical (checked my weaponsmith alt's recipes for comparison)

At this point, the LI's appear to be customizable and upgradeable landscape weapons, at least at the lower levels. I don't see any real advantage the new LIs have for low level alts unless they have high level support (i.e. higher level alts sharing AS/AS deconstructable traceries, low level traceries, etc....)

[wispsong]

That doesn't really answer the question though. Can you literally go through Moria without any traceries? I understand that you're likely to get something along the way. However, the question was to do with a situation where you outlevel your traceries and haven't replaced them. Your claim was that, in that scenario, it's still OK just to reforge - i.e. dps only, no functional tracery (I'm assuming a disabled tracery is the same as no tracery at all).

According to Raninia reforging is enough to quest through the zones and from what I have seen levelling several characters before the revamp that is probably true for older content. Where it could get tricky is HD, where we had a severe increase in stats, Mordor and the last zones. MM was surprisingly better tuned for starting 120s then Vales.

Traceries make the LI a legendary, without them we basically have just a dps stick. And the idea that landscape questers should not even think about improving and customizing their character is just plain dismissing of that play style. Essences work the same, RNG drops and no more crafted guild gear point in the same direction. Once the battle track is in we might get a different picture but right now considering the grind to keep up with so many things I can see that eventually reforge will not be enough and I have not much hope that this particular group will ever be permitted again to equip better then RNG drops and quest gear.

I have long ago come to the conclusion that I at one time might not be able to continue landscape questing which has come true with the last 2 zones for my alts. Thankfully there is enough playable content in lower levels.

[JERH]

I have run a lot of characters up through the lower levels. In the usual run of things, you out-level the area way before you finish it. With that happening, I see my chars getting to content that rewards traceries after the optimal level to use it. The stones may keep our chars working on areas more at-level than we have been, therefore making the tracery drops more appropriate. (at least, that's my hope. It's been years since I've run an area with white mobs)

Those are some of the reasons for me to use the stones in the past as well. I have multiple chars abandoned in E/W Rohan. If one is 85 and I don’t want to grind school/woe/library (which I don’t) and I put on a stone what content do I run that would give me a reason to ever play that char again? Wildermore? Hytbold quests again and again and again? I level means I probably have to grind. I don’t level any rewards expire at 86.

Thanks for any opinion.

Oops, my traceries expire at 96 I think. So I don’t have to answer the question for quite a bit. NVM.

[Dusalan]

Traceries make the LI a legendary, without them we basically have just a dps stick.

I'm strongly inclined to think the new LIs are DPS sticks, whether you play landscape or not, until you get close to current level cap (Ironfold, Morgul, and the upcoming Gundabad).

Pretty much everything I see in the new LI system is it is optimized for Gundabad/new level cap play. Everyone else is an afterthought.

My conclusion is based on looking at alts with new/old LI's ranging from completion of Walls of Moria (L48) to current level cap (L130).

[Fegefeuer]

Can't say I've had golds getting deactivated on me yet, but so far not been a major issue with the purples/teals being deactivated as the only get deactivated at reforge thresholds. So yes, your % modifiers go down and some minor buffs lose potency but it happens at the same time you gain a large boost. I can't say I noticed any issues on that front whilst levelling, have you been experiencing an issue there yourself?

Losing induction reducting or sneak speed has nothing to do with dps, and if I have to choose between losing that and increase dps or maintaining that and losing dps, I prefer losing dps - that's why I don't select all traceries to benefit my dps, I also choose to benefit buffs.

You, me, and nobody has had any issue with traceries deactivating yet because the system is less than 1 month old. We can talk again on 150 cap. Just see beyond your current comfort zone and into the future. Because if even low lvl characters are not getting traceries, I am not sure if they will suffer the grind problem as lvlcap people are going to suffer it. I think grind suffering starts at lvl96+.

[Fegefeuer]

I have a question for the Xperience disablers to get around tracery expiration. Why?

“ @Soltasword who just posted while I was writing this "I see a mad rush to the store to buy the xp-disabler in the near future. Now if we only had a second pocket to carry that in." - bought 8 stones of tortoise when getting the new LIs”

Basically it means that you will control how you level up so you don't get your traceries disabled, it's similar as when the gear has a cap and it gets automatically unequipped (not sure if they have changed this). In my case I'm just retiring those characters because I can't bother to farm traceries with so many characters. I still want to play those characters for fun but I don't want to risk levelling up and then get traceries deactivated, so I just get tortoise stone and that's all.

Imagine people farming School to get traceries at level 150 because when they are 151 they will get the traceries disabled, but the grind is going to take long, and they might level up before getting all replacements, so maybe even people who enjoy farming will have to use tortoise if they don't want to have their traceries disabled while they are farming the new traceries lol

[Fegefeuer]

I have long ago come to the conclusion that I at one time might not be able to continue landscape questing which has come true with the last 2 zones for my alts. Thankfully there is enough playable content in lower levels.

It's funny because one way to overcome landscape difficulty is to overlevel characters but now it's no longer possible because traceries will get disabled.

For example, my guardian stood at the black gate for years but leveled him with wargpens and tasks items through the time. Some months ago I just played him through Mordor to Vales as a 130 character and it was a fun experience. You can think, if landscape is too hard for you, well, you can get powerlevelled or use tasks. Not the ideal solution but it was a posibility. Not anymore. Obviously this I did wouldn't be possible with the new LIs because the character was 105 at black gate and between that and 130 there are some tiers of traceries that get disabled.

Sorry for too many replies but too many interesting comments

[Joedangod]

Basically it means that you will control how you level up so you don't get your traceries disabled, it's similar as when the gear has a cap and it gets automatically unequipped (not sure if they have changed this). In my case I'm just retiring those characters because I can't bother to farm traceries with so many characters. I still want to play those characters for fun but I don't want to risk levelling up and then get traceries deactivated, so I just get tortoise stone and that's all.

You'd have to go through an entire expansions worth of content without picking up replacements before your traceries get disabled. At which point you likely have enough scripts to at least buy the common version of your "must have" stuff.

That doesn't really answer the question though. Can you literally go through Moria without any traceries? I understand that you're likely to get something along the way. However, the question was to do with a situation where you outlevel your traceries and haven't replaced them. Your claim was that, in that scenario, it's still OK just to reforge - i.e. dps only, no functional tracery (I'm assuming a disabled tracery is the same as no tracery at all).

Due to some inherent laziness on my part (and a double roll of increased melee range from tracery boxes) I wound up doing 105-121 content without traceries on Brawler and had no issues whatsoever. That was before Brawler DPS got buffed (although it's still utterly incompetent on that front). The DPS rating holds most of the power here, you don't require any tracery at all on landscape. They're a bonus, not a requirement.