Minstrel Changes and Feedback

[Belechael]

Mac, you spoke like a politician: you said a lot, but didn't back anything up.

First of all, you claim that the existing Piercing cry and Inspiring cries are "simply too much". According to you. Who else complained? what is wrong with having something very good in a class that is supposed to be very good in that aspect? What do you want to achieve by these nerfs? Make our lives more difficult? Well, mission accomplished.

Second, you claim that you want Melody to be desired and played in a group and solo setting. Why? Are minstrels the ONLY class with an unplayable trait line? Why start with us, while we have 2 great lines for 2 different roles? Why not with Trapper or Shadow Guardian or Tanking Warden or Healing Cap or Tanking Champion? Why break something that is already working, while so many other classes have issues with their MAIN roles, let alone their secondary, or tertiary?

You are not convincing anyone, except those that do not use their minstrels to their full potential.

[infinitewhimsy]

Mac, you spoke like a politician: you said a lot, but didn't back anything up.

First of all, you claim that the existing Piercing cry and Inspiring cries are "simply too much". According to you. Who else complained? what is wrong with having something very good in a class that is supposed to be very good in that aspect? What do you want to achieve by these nerfs? Make our lives more difficult? Well, mission accomplished.

Second, you claim that you want Melody to be desired and played in a group and solo setting. Why? Are minstrels the ONLY class with an unplayable trait line? Why start with us, while we have 2 great lines for 2 different roles? Why not with Trapper or Shadow Guardian or Tanking Warden or Healing Cap or Tanking Champion? Why break something that is already working, while so many other classes have issues with their MAIN roles, let alone their secondary, or tertiary?

You are not convincing anyone, except those that do not use their minstrels to their full potential.

Piercing Cry is/was immediate, a corruption removal, an interrupt, a stun, resettable, had a reflect trait, and hit for good damage. It obviously was too much for 1 skill, anything less is just unreasonable.

Seriously, read that list again, maybe do it two times. This 1 skill is half of our effective toolkit which is why you can't just remove that stuff from our 2 main stances and think everyone will be happy.

The problem is that it had to be that way because our other skills are mediocre. Minstrel never gets taken for DPS for a reason, our DPS was only tolerable because of Orome's debuff and PC reset spam, both of which are heavily nerfed in our DPS stance. Minstrel DPS is probably 2nd to last next to Captain, except Red Captain has a guaranteed place in groups because of Oathbreakers/To Arms/Banner. Red Minstrel has zero place in groups.

It's fine to change Piercing Cry, it should clearly be changed, but you shouldn't do it without giving us something else in return on our other skills especially for Dissonance and redline. The change feels like #### because you're removing the one thing that was holding over an otherwise mediocre trait spec. Without Orome and spamming PC red Mins DPS is a joke. And yes you can still spam PC, but why would you ever do it in Dissonance now when you have more than double the light damage debuff in Melody and vastly more utility AND healing unlocked? Dissonance has ceased to make any coherent sense with these changes. It's a DPS stance that doesn't do meaningful damage compared to the utility stance that doesn't sacrifice anything while Dissonance sacrifices a lot.

[DoRonRon]

It has always been a poor choice to give skills multiple effects. Use it for one thing and loose it for another more important reason or have it unused waiting for something that doesn't occur.

This echoes the LI revamp; those who were far from pushing the the limits of the old system are blindsided by an increase in the numbers to acceptance and dragging others down with them. Bashing random skills ignoring skill queue and skill cancelling and you'll like see higher. Why else have official streamers that play minis like this? So n00bs think that's good play and years of over level gaming never instils any need to buff anthems!

[Elaelin]

As I previously asked, with all of the nerfs and all of the changes what will be the mini's role in group content? Will the mini fill a unique need in group content or will the mini be "filler" when nothing better is available for an empty spot or the content is so easy it really won't make a difference? It feels like you are trying to retire the mini or turn the class into a backup/2nd string bench class.

Lesser heals, lesser buffs and no improvements to dps.

[DoRonRon]

It was a previous dev's cop out that delivered the Piercing Cry OTT functionality and left as is for us to not relish missing it from now on. The parses will "prove" the final iteration ofc but will it leave the majority of minis with the choice to just not bother with anthems when they are no longer part and parcel of the solo game and muscle memory on entering raid environments. Reminds me of the Guard's bleed dynamics when solo, building bleed up when mobs would be long dead with shield use instead, unless pulling a wake of bleeding mobs across the map and back tracking for one hooked up on a rock.

[hillard1959]

Hopefully when they come with the next Bullroarer and make them Fast, it might feel a little better. I've always felt weird with how the current minstrel anthems work. It seemed like a minstrel should use three ballads against the enemy and then use an anthem, then repeat. But what we normally do is sit there, use our cry, cast all of our anthems, and then go in charging. We did it because it was effective. I'm not saying it was wrong, but I always wondered if there was another way to look at the traditional approach to how songs would be built in battle.

Honestly, I just want more explanation for how anthems work now. If it's meant that I'm supposed to be more choosey as to which anthem to throw up in any give situation and only run one, perhaps two anthems at a time, fine. I'll have to take a look at it again when BR is back up.

Faster ballads would be a very welcome change. To increase DPS, you're supposed to chain together three Minor Ballads to maximize DPS. But I find myself doing Minor - Major- Perfect simply to get my Coda up faster. It's not great, but I prefer that to Minor - Cry- Minor - Another Cry - Minor - Yet Another Cry. I want to nuke stuff now as opposed to a few minutes from now. And I know about spamming Cry of the Chorus, but this old dog never could get used to that new trick. It's effective on live, without a doubt, but I'm still rather stuck on using it as an emergency "I need to tier up NOW" skill than something that should be in regular rotation.

As for piercing cry, I still want my stun back. I could care less about the reflect or corruption removal. Corruptions are a joke on landscape and Tier 1 solo instances. With few exceptions, you can freely ignore them as if they weren't on the mob to begin with. You want to fix something, fix that. While I do realize we have the new AOE stun, it's like asking for a scalpel and being handed a hammer. Sometimes I just want to keep that one mob out of the way for a few seconds while I deal with his friends.

[wispsong]

Piercing Cry is/was immediate, a corruption removal, an interrupt, a stun, resettable, had a reflect trait, and hit for good damage. It obviously was too much for 1 skill, anything less is just unreasonable.

Seriously, read that list again, maybe do it two times. This 1 skill is half of our effective toolkit which is why you can't just remove that stuff from our 2 main stances and think everyone will be happy.

The problem is that it had to be that way because our other skills are mediocre. Minstrel never gets taken for DPS for a reason, our DPS was only tolerable because of Orome's debuff and PC reset spam, both of which are heavily nerfed in our DPS stance. Minstrel DPS is probably 2nd to last next to Captain, except Red Captain has a guaranteed place in groups because of Oathbreakers/To Arms/Banner. Red Minstrel has zero place in groups.

It's fine to change Piercing Cry, it should clearly be changed, but you shouldn't do it without giving us something else in return on our other skills especially for Dissonance and redline. The change feels like #### because you're removing the one thing that was holding over an otherwise mediocre trait spec. Without Orome and spamming PC red Mins DPS is a joke. And yes you can still spam PC, but why would you ever do it in Dissonance now when you have more than double the light damage debuff in Melody and vastly more utility AND healing unlocked? Dissonance has ceased to make any coherent sense with these changes. It's a DPS stance that doesn't do meaningful damage compared to the utility stance that doesn't sacrifice anything while Dissonance sacrifices a lot.

Mediocre equipped mini (including LI, traits, virtues) better stay out of Gundabad now. Swapping stances in the middle of a fight or have longer fights is mostly not an option. There are to many grouped mobs which include signatures and to many patrols that make kiting impossible and even some AoE. We are a light class, especially vulnerable when attacked by groups. It seems clear to me that the dev has not played a red mediocre geared mini on level in Gundabad enemy camps. I also am at this point convinced that these changes to red and blue are made due to PvMP. I hope to get through Gundabad before they go live because my minis will take a long break after. It seems laughable to having got mad/sad about the hunter barrage/focus changes and the LM pet changes when this is completely destroying red mini as is.

[hillard1959]

Mediocre equipped mini (including LI, traits, virtues) better stay out of Gundabad now. Swapping stances in the middle of a fight or have longer fights is mostly not an option. There are to many grouped mobs which include signatures and to many patrols that make kiting impossible and even some AoE. We are a light class, especially vulnerable when attacked by groups. It seems clear to me that the dev has not played a red mediocre geared mini on level in Gundabad enemy camps. I also am at this point convinced that these changes to red and blue are made due to PvMP. I hope to get through Gundabad before they go live because my minis will take a long break after. It seems laughable to having got mad/sad about the hunter barrage/focus changes and the LM pet changes when this is completely destroying red mini as is.

I concur. I haven't raided in years, so my mini had no raid gear to fall back on. The gear you do get as you level up through Gundabad isn't really great. I even tried running a yellow build through there and found I had to be exceedingly careful as to which skills I applied as I could end up pulling more mobs than I could handle with little to no room for kiting. I didn't really feel in a comfortable spot again as a red minstrel until I was able to craft a full set of 140 armor. My jewelry is still a mess, so that's the next thing I'll have to get my jeweler's crafting up for.

[Belechael]

Mediocre equipped mini (including LI, traits, virtues) better stay out of Gundabad now. Swapping stances in the middle of a fight or have longer fights is mostly not an option. There are to many grouped mobs which include signatures and to many patrols that make kiting impossible and even some AoE. We are a light class, especially vulnerable when attacked by groups. It seems clear to me that the dev has not played a red mediocre geared mini on level in Gundabad enemy camps. I also am at this point convinced that these changes to red and blue are made due to PvMP. I hope to get through Gundabad before they go live because my minis will take a long break after. It seems laughable to having got mad/sad about the hunter barrage/focus changes and the LM pet changes when this is completely destroying red mini as is.

Same here, hence my previous post.

I have friends who decided to come back to the game after a long hiatus, obviously with #### gear, and they had a very hard time in Gundabad.

But lets face it, pvmp is again screwing pve, and they don't even have the decency to admit it.

[Neinda]

Same here, hence my previous post.

I have friends who decided to come back to the game after a long hiatus, obviously with #### gear, and they had a very hard time in Gundabad.

But lets face it, pvmp is again screwing pve, and they don't even have the decency to admit it.

I don't believe pvmp is the reason for nerfing the mini. I suspect there is a new premium class or class line being released that will be better than the nerfed version of the mini. The age old take it away and make us pay to get it back system that works so well in this game. Maybe we will get a middle earth version of a druid that uses flower power and plants to heal and buff? There is a reason this nerf is being fast tracked and supposedly there is a big announcement in September. Resources are being used to make these major changes to the mini. There has to be a payback for SSG somewhere in the changes. This is the longest running healer class in the game. It has never been copied or replaced with anything.

[infinitewhimsy]

I doubt PvP has anything to do with it, you guys give them too much credit even if it's for maliciousness.

I mean look at the new Anthem of Prowess which for some reason now gives 3,000 agility? You can't tell me ANY thought went into that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wz-PtEJEaqY
Pretty sure that's the balancing process.

[CasualActual]

Is the nerf to anthem of composure tac mitigation, Old 160k new 80k intentional and if so, what the justification for it?

[infinitewhimsy]

Is the nerf to anthem of composure tac mitigation, Old 160k new 80k intentional and if so, what the justification for it?

You get 3% raw mitigation for basically every tactical type now through Composure and Compassion to compensate, although though now it's 2 skills and a lot more trait points and much more time to apply said buffs. The Resistance rating is a lot lower too.

[wispsong]

I don't believe pvmp is the reason for nerfing the mini. I suspect there is a new premium class or class line being released that will be better than the nerfed version of the mini. The age old take it away and make us pay to get it back system that works so well in this game. Maybe we will get a middle earth version of a druid that uses flower power and plants to heal and buff? There is a reason this nerf is being fast tracked and supposedly there is a big announcement in September. Resources are being used to make these major changes to the mini. There has to be a payback for SSG somewhere in the changes. This is the longest running healer class in the game. It has never been copied or replaced with anything.

A new ranged premium class would be a sale no matter what. I think this is just the start of butchering all classes for whatever reason.

[Aurayael]

I also want to try to give some words of my irritation on this massiv changes , even as I do not know to realise everything coming. (It would be really helpful to have a German/France translation of Bullroar announcements)

the two main things I do not understand:

- Why changing a class really no player complains about over a few years. The Mini forum is as silent as no other forum. There are no big complaining from RK or beos, or who else can heal or support in a raid. We see a endgame-raidcontent with all three main-healers be part of it. So why this big chance without any player-based reason? (Or do I miss something)


- The other thing I really do not understand is the arguing with red-traitline, because the last thing a mini had to do is DPS. For me, the identity of mini is healing as the first part and supporting as the second. I can play without a red-traitline much more than without a yellow one. I know, this is not the main opinion, because solo play has always to be easy and not frustrating. But in an MMO I play with friends there is always a way to get trough difficult content outside a raid or instance. If you really want to give melody and yellow a justification for existence, than close the red-line! And give classes like hunters, champions and so one the chance to be the real DDs in the very small spots they have in raids. You can give us a buff for landscape to increase the DPS with a mechanic like 'still as death', so we are not allow to use it in raids or in pvmp

[Bio-Flame]

@OnnMacMahal

Some of us here are end-game content raiders for many years now. We know our stuff. Please listen to our feedback.
It's easy to spot who are the end-game players and who are not.



1- Piercing Cry

I would agree with you that Piercing Cry does too much. So do so many other skills in the game. But Red Minis have NO place in group content. Zero. None. Nada. There's Hunters, RKs, Wardens, Brawlers, Burglars and probably LMs before ANYONE would consider taking a Red Mini.
With that in mind: why? Why are you nerfing a DPS skill on a class that never gets a slot as DPS in group content? Not even the biggest white knights and shills ever said that Red Mini is broken...so...why?
Red mini is bad as it is without any more nerfs.
Mind you: Red Mini should NEVER be viable for group content, otherwise Minis would get slots as Healers AND as DPS, so I think most Minis are fine with never getting a DPS slot on instances and raids. Perfectly fine with it.

But nerfing the best and most useful Red Mini skill ...with what intention? Make it even slower to level and more painful? None of us gets it.




2- Melody Stance

The problem we have with Melody is that you're trying to force us to use Melody by nerfing everything else. Melody isn't better, you just made Ressonance and Dissonance so much worse. That's all there is.
I would suggest trying to improve Yellow line instead. Moreover, don't delete Yellow, make yellow better


For example, improve the Anthems in while in Yellow/Melody, give them extra stuff but keep Yellow Anthems from being castable during combat (and only yellow or you nerf solo play) to Yellow-->BLue trait dancing pre-combat.
Remove the silly Block stance and give us more options to support through, well...support. Say, -inc damage, +outgoing healing, +mits to phys/tat, + max morale, + bubbles, + speed, etc etc...


But do it without nerfing Blue and Red. Make yellow better, make it desirable.
Most people here are telling you that.

Just to clarify, we’re not out to ‘delete all yellow lines’ or cut all classes down to two specializations. We wanted to convert the yellow minstrel trait tree into a non-specialization tree because there was so much to love about the yellow line, but so little incentive to fully commit to it, due to the ways it penalized your base Healing or Damage output

Ok, you're not out to delete all yellow lines or cut classes specializations...but that's what you are doing to minstrels. That's exactly what you're doing.
It doesn't make sense.
There's so much to love about yellow line...... so you destroy yellow and worse, you destroy the playstyle for Blue that players here happy with for many years.


Don't you think you're trying too hard? You're trying to give us something we don't want, while at the same time removing lots of stuff from BLue that we DID want to keep.

Induction Times
I understand that the changes to Induction modifiers are frustrating, but this is not a nerf directed at Minstrels. The fact is, for characters at various level ranges, it’s trivially easy to achieve -100% induction speed under certain conditions. With these changes, -Induction bonuses you gain from traits and traceries will still help you shorten your inductions, but will now be multiplied with your ‘-All Skill Inductions’ buffs from skills or gear.
I’m also taking a look at possibly reducing baseline Minstrel inductions slightly. The goal is not to make Healing feel slow or clunky; it’s simply to make it such that you can’t build your Minstrel in a way that allows you to ignore all inductions completely!

Yes, it's frustrating because on top of all the nerfs and needless changes, you're nerfing our induction speed.
And it IS directed at Minstrels because we're the only ones getting nerfed.Nobody else is getting this nerf-bat treatment you are giving us. YOu're not helping minis, you're making them worse. Sorry for being honest but it's the truth.
How are we supposed to believe your words when your actions are doing the opposite?




Last but not the least:

I repeat: Minstrels did not want Yellow to be deleted. Improved yes. Or to be left alone. But this huge overhaul while at the same time destroying the Blue playstyle is a mistake.
We've been playing this game for many, many years now. We were happy with the state of Minis.
You are changing minis for the worse, not for the better.



I hope you can see this and at least, try to convince your bosses that this is not the way. There is a better way to do improve Yellow without this change for the worse.
We as players, most of us here high-end raiders, can help you do your job for the better. We can offer some suggestions (no doubt some too OP) and you can shave off the numbers and ideas.




I hope you can take your help and realize that this change is for the worse. A lot worse.
If you aim to improve ONE specialization but you end up making all three specs worse and players unhappy....shouldn't the change be placed on hold and reavaluated?

[Neinda]

I mean look at the new Anthem of Prowess which for some reason now gives 3,000 agility? You can't tell me ANY thought went into that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wz-PtEJEaqY
Pretty sure that's the balancing process.

For some reason I just don't see my dance card filling up with raid and fellowship invitations when I tell them I have the agility buff tracery and I can get the group 3,000 more agility every couple of minutes. LOL, half the group will be dead because I was busy getting that agility buff going and my heals are 25% less but they will have a good agility level when they die.

[jevvy]

I’ll do my best to respond to the feedback on anthems soon, but for now, I’m out of time from writing this already-lengthy post!


And lastly, I do want to say again that I truly appreciate all of your feedback, and look forward to the next round of Bullroarer!

I don't actually understand why you ask for feedback at all when you quite clearly aren't going to do anything about the objections voiced by experienced raid healers. Why not just say here it is, get used to it coz that's basically what's going to happen isn't it

[Neinda]

I don't actually understand why you ask for feedback at all when you quite clearly aren't going to do anything about the objections voiced by experienced raid healers. Why not just say here it is, get used to it coz that's basically what's going to happen isn't it

Plus 1. Well said. As usual, we are asked for feedback. We provide feedback. The feedback gets filed in the round file cabinet and I think we were told tough luck yesterday with the response. That is what it sounded like to me anyway. I think this was more of a preview of things to come rather than a request for suggestions and concerns.

[Vilan]

"We want your feedback" is more of a code word for "we want your bug reports". If you just don't like a particular change, or want to see additional changes, you can go pound sand. A small chance of some minor reversion to have people wave their pitchforks a little less vigorously, but that's about it. Thus has it ever been in Bullroarer.

[DoRonRon]

Mediocre equipped mini (including LI, traits, virtues) better stay out of Gundabad now. Swapping stances in the middle of a fight or have longer fights is mostly not an option. There are to many grouped mobs which include signatures and to many patrols that make kiting impossible and even some AoE. We are a light class, especially vulnerable when attacked by groups. It seems clear to me that the dev has not played a red mediocre geared mini on level in Gundabad enemy camps. I also am at this point convinced that these changes to red and blue are made due to PvMP. I hope to get through Gundabad before they go live because my minis will take a long break after. It seems laughable to having got mad/sad about the hunter barrage/focus changes and the LM pet changes when this is completely destroying red mini as is.

You are supposed to drop the cash on keys, valars and a load on MC button clicks, or are you so selfish you want to keep your self respect instead? I'm with you

But if you are not nuking in red with all the best gear you risk facing a rather pathetic heal/incoming slide show to the rezz circle or MC rezzing to avoid the tiresome trip back.

I'd consider an out of combat swappy LI for
https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Song_of_Distraction

Except it only a reduces the default CD from 3 minutes by 99, 90, 81 or 72 seconds dependent on tracery colour. Old ILI it's 144 seconds and a 36 second CD but without a non LI class item in game you have to drag LIs from their slots to make use of them.

Are there any addons that unequip class item LIs though?

[infinitewhimsy]

@OnnMacMahal
Mind you: Red Mini should NEVER be viable for group content, otherwise Minis would get slots as Healers AND as DPS, so I think most Minis are fine with never getting a DPS slot on instances and raids. Perfectly fine with it.

Why not? RKs get spots as both heals and DPS.

With the way trait trees looked on BR you won't be able to get all of your Anthems with just 1 Minstrel so it's not that bad to bring 2 Minstrels. And even though Call to Greatness is still full of useless resets like Javelin of Deadly Force the CD on the skill is actually much higher than the duration of the debuff that prevents you from using it again, suggesting again that they want multiple Minstrels in the group... I'm not saying that's going to happen mind you, because I doubt anyone cares enough to waste a DPS slot for things like that, but the concept is there.

I'm not fine with our red spec being the only one unwelcome in raids. That's why I liked the way yellow spec used to work, because you kind of sort of got to DPS as Minstrel as long as you kept your Anthems up, but of course that potential is completely gone now since Blue can get up all of the yellow Anthems now, and has better ones than the red line too (compare Anthem of the Third Age Resonance to Dissonance, the latter is significantly worse).

And of course now red feels worse solo too with either low numbers in Melody or lower Orome debuff and lost utility and slower anthems and...hah...

You are supposed to drop the cash on keys, valars and a load on MC button clicks, or are you so selfish you want to keep your self respect instead? I'm with you

But if you are not nuking in red with all the best gear you risk facing a rather pathetic heal/incoming slide show to the rezz circle or MC rezzing to avoid the tiresome trip back.

I'd consider an out of combat swappy LI for
https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Song_of_Distraction

Except it only a reduces the default CD from 3 minutes by 99, 90, 81 or 72 seconds dependent on tracery colour. Old ILI it's 144 seconds and a 36 second CD but without a non LI class item in game you have to drag LIs from their slots to make use of them.

Are there any addons that unequip class item LIs though?

Thanks for reminding me. I completely forgot they nerfed Still as Death cooldown too, as though the skill wasn't disabled 99.9% of the time you wanted to use it anyway. I remember how these things used to work and how incredibly iconic and thematic they were for group play, and it makes me sad to think about it now. No-one has asked or cared about Still as Death for years now when we used it all the time for stuff throughout SoA, Moria, Mirkwood, to skip mobs, to deaggro, to save on repairs, to rez the group without retreating, etc...

But of course https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Stand_Tall_(Effect) is now everywhere. So I guess they better nerf the CD so you can't use it on landscape either.

Definitely going to get a swap LI for distract, if I'm even still playing my Minstrel...or this game.

[Neinda]

"We want your feedback" is more of a code word for "we want your bug reports". If you just don't like a particular change, or want to see additional changes, you can go pound sand. A small chance of some minor reversion to have people wave their pitchforks a little less vigorously, but that's about it. Thus has it ever been in Bullroarer.

But why ask for bug reports? They rarely fix the bugs until after it goes live and everything goes crash. I really believe the test server is all about reminding us who is in power these days. Many years ago, they used to actually listen to player input. The good old days.

[Neinda]

A new ranged premium class would be a sale no matter what. I think this is just the start of butchering all classes for whatever reason.

Something is coming to the lotro store. SSG would not use the manpower and resources required to completely nerf a class unless there is a store sale happening soon to offset the change. Maybe a new class? Maybe special buffs? Maybe special trait lines or extra slots for our LIs? Something is coming where we will be given the opportunity to buy back what has been taken away. It has been a couple of weeks since they nerfed the festival and sent it to the mithril coin system. We are overdue.

[CasualActual]

With all of the things broken in this game I'm not sure why anyone is even looking at the minstrel. Its been one of the better more fun classes to play the last few level caps. Are these all nerfs for the benefit of creeps in PVP play?