Lord of the Rings The Rings of Power

[LagunaD2]

Not the best analogy, since with Gil-galad being unmarried Galadriel was 'the' Lady of the Noldor. Bit more than a minor footnote. As Lady she'd got a powerful spiritual and quasi-religious role. Or at least she ought to have, if the show-runners weren't such twerps.

She wasn't even the senior Noldorin female in Exile.

Finwe's second wife (Indis) and first daughter (Findis) were still alive and well in Valinor, and Finwe's second daughter (Irime, older sister of G's dad) went to Middle-earth, and we don't know what her fate was. Any surviving daughters of Findis or Irime would have been above Galadriel in the pecking order too.

[TesalionLortus]

Well 'they' (the High Elves) did, but the fun part is that lore-wise Sauron doesn't call himself Sauron, but Mairon (hie 'real' name as a Maia), not that they could use that as it's one of those obscure bits of lore. But once he's made, err, 'friends' with the Numenoreans I imagine he'd want them to call them by his real name, so if they were doing it properly (lol, who am I kidding) they'd have to make something up. In case you were wondering, he gave up on that after the Downfall and simply didn't allow his name to be spelled or spoken, like Aragorn says in LOTR.

Technically, I don't even care what name they give him :P But if we could only have more of something like that one scene with Sauron from the intro from the start (maybe let him be armored baddie/sorcerer in the East with the host of his own causing trouble around Nurn/Harad, while simultaneously appearing under guises in the West)... that could have been worth it visually, even if it was lore-breaking. But nope, we'll be stuck with so much cringe and irrelevant characters instead before - if at all - it gets cinematically interesting. Haven't played Shadow of War yet, I guess all the cutscenes with Nazgul and Sauron have much more cinematic worth in it (maybe even lore on occasion) so will be interesting to compare with RoP stuff later once I play it

He does kind of look like he should be designing the Death Star, because of course the baddies are always English

My thoughts exactly. There are rumors Galadriel will suggests the forging of the rings (lol) so I can easily see Celebrimbor getting mad here before the assembly of Eregion smiths: "The Forge was my achievement, not yours!"

Yeah, Eregion's capital is like... almost as if it had a lake or something, too much water.

Funny thing, they're pretty inconsistent with the maps and names too. "Lindon, capital city of the elves" but the map shows a big "Lindon" text across this big geographical area, so which one it is, capital city or kingdom? Technically could be both, but nevertheless it is something that should be made clear. Or, in the trailers they had Southlands limited to just Mordor, but now it's running across the entire to-become-Gondor and Mordor areas. Southlands occupied by the elves isn't really South of their domains. It is not South to the people of Southlands either because they would be from somewhere West (if ancestors fought for Morgoth) or further South (if they dwelled there first). Tirharad isn't really a "watch of the South" either because it's not South of anything of relevance, it's the name of the village, not the elven outpost, and it's only a small part of this huge line that is Southlands anyway. Also, Mordor mountains are such a natural geographical barrier that there is NO way they would be a part of the same geographical area/province with the exact same name for it as the other "Gondorian" part of Southlands. These names don't make ANY sense. These people are utter morons. Well...

I guess Southlands is South of the Harfoots... except they migrate and their significance as peoples equals -100 here.

The interesting thing is that the huge forge would represent industrialisation, which was of course a no-no for Tolkien (only baddies industrialise!) and so foreshadowing that what Celebrimbor wants to do is really pushing things and won't end well.

Yeah, but in this context it's not really such a big deal if elves are such baddies already :P I wonder if we get any "wait, are we the baddies?" memes with Arondir.

He'd found a loose floorboard and there was interesting stuff hidden under it, which he wanted to show to his friend. The "he" would be the guy who owns the barn and wouldn't want kids poking around in it. Theo stays because the sword puts the whammy on him and makes him take it with him. This is presumably why the Orcs come up through the floor of their house later, they're probably looking for it or are drawn to it as it's Obviously Evil.

Yeah, that's what the intention was. But this scene is nothing but clear or engaging. It's just so dang off and uninteresting, not to mention that immediate transition. Also, makes Theo freaking unsympathetic. Like, if it was me in charge, I would have showed Theo getting a stroll through the market first (nice to show the life of the village too!), meet his friend there, maybe a friend is the one who brags about what he has heard a certain someone hides in his barn (so you don't really make your main a braggy brat), maybe even give us an intriguing name like the Mad Farmer Bill or Bill the Collector or something, they sneak inside to take a look, there is a whole sequence and more tension, and so on. But this? This was just so random. They might as well have Theo stumble upon it under a nearby tree (less needless confusion that way).

And I'm going to call it now: it'll be Halbrand, he's like this anti-heroic Aragorn figure with a shadowy past (he's got something in a pouch, like an heirloom or something) and the ideal sort of guy for Sauron to give one of the Nine Rings to, Plus we know those Men round there used to be on Team Morgoth.

They used to be, yeah, ages ago. It's that stupid that it's even called out in-universe but the series treats it like "oh, makes sense, they might still be evil just because, gotta keep them in check" or something. Realistically, they could just fall under the shadow/influence of Sauron (or other men) just as easily as any other men would, Numenoreans included. So it's just so... anti-intellectual and bleh what they're going for here.

Halbrand? I think he is Sauron, after all, and Nerdortic and others are right. Dude is just like "the raft is torn to pieces but I'm fine, wanna buy head&shoulders?" heck maybe he commanded that sea serpent too. Also, that very long wait before he finally dived after her assessing whether she is entertaining enough and worth a bother... oh and dang, yap, I totally forgot to mention that before - this dumb b*tch thought it was smart to bind herself to the mast, congratulations, was laughing so hard at this!

The pendant/medallion might be some Morgoth keepsake and there were early rumors about Adar looking for "some sort of medallion" so maybe it connects to that (or the sword but it's strange to speak about the hilt as if it was a medallion?).

For Witch-king... Theo, I think. Think about it... he isn't very sympathetic, acts like a psycho of sorts, would probably like to become King and found kind-of-Morgul blade. Who cares he is kid now. Maybe he will learn some sorcery with that sword, you know, a village witch first... Witch-king from birth it is, according to these hacks! The reason he becomes Witch-king is because mother issues. Noticed how there is ABSOLUTELY no warmth in there between son and mother? It's like none of this matters, it was all boring Bronwyn/Arondir romance and the single "empowered" mother apparently likes to ditch her son I guess. Single brave mothers may have sons but don't need to care/pay attention! Ditch them! Romance your black Legolas and go slay some orcs in a hole!

Oh, there was another interesting bit though... because we have an unknown father figure. Maybe it was Sauron who used to live in that barn as Halbrand or something for some time, banged his mother and then left. "Theo, I am your father" xD

It reminds me of Gericault's Raft of the Medusa (if not quite so crowded). The sea-monster is a sea-serpent, a.k.a. a fish-dragon (like the sort of thing that people used to draw on old charts) and it's a proper bit of lore. The throwaway reference to corsairs will be a callback, although there's nothing stopping there being piratical Haradrim. (Except not anywhere near Numenor, of course).

Yep but it's not really about the themes. It's just... it really has such Pirates of the Caribbean vibes all over it, the way this scene is framed, it's funny. Also, all the ugly, drunkard, bearded men + "have you heard of him, lad? have you heard of Sauron?" guy in that other city from the trailer too... it's like they're some Tortuga denizens and someone is just going to tell a Tale of Sauron as if it was a pirate talking about the cursed Black Pearl or Kraken, charming. Not to mention they (men) shouldn't be aware of Sauron at all, mostly, if he didn't really have any significant kingdoms (yet) in this weird version of Middle-earth

You should see all the notes I made on just the first episode... I was going to do an "Everything Wrong With..." but it ended up way too big to post here

LOL. Well yeah, as I said, essays may be written... and it's just two episodes! For now! 48 to go!

[LagunaD2]

Halbrand risked his life to save G's, when he could have just stayed on the raft and let her drown.

[TesalionLortus]

Halbrand risked his life to save G's, when he could have just stayed on the raft and let her drown.

He literally just looks at her as if she was crazy or something (which is true), his first sentence is something like, idk, a foreshadowing that perhaps he is the one she's been looking for this entire time and he only dives after her after such a long long moment of contemplation, as if it was very amusing to him she just went under (he is not wrong, it was amusing to me too). So my bet is Sauron, his behavior isn't really subtle either. I don't get any real "I'm in danger here" vibe from him and the dude is so smug

[LagunaD2]

I think a simpler explanation is that the guy is traumatized by his village being overrun, and traumatized by being shipwrecked, and he lashes out in bitterness at someone different who has a cooler head (in terms of looking past their apparently hopeless situation) and isn't losing it like he is.

[LagunaD2]

I know 50 episodes are planned, but have they said where in the timeline the series will end?

I assume it will either be the fall of Numenor or the end of the second age.

[TesalionLortus]

Probably end of second age and their version of the Fall of Sauron with Isildur getting the ring. The time compression will make everything accelerate at ridiculous pace and Middle-earth feel like it's a house of cards and a few smallish spots on the map with colossal cities rising out of nothing within a couple of years (Minas Tirith perhaps). I guess Season 4 is the Fall of Numenor but everything else is a wild guess, they can just change whatever and merge completely unrelated events/wars thousands of years apart.

[LagunaD2]

The mention of time compression reminded me of one other bizarre moment in first episodes.

Celebrimbor tells Elrond that the new super-forge has to be ready in a year. Why?

Elves live forever, and all but one of them are apparently convinced that they have just begun an era of eternal peace.

Celebrimbor and the rest of them have (literally) all the time in the world.

Further, the hallmark of elven craftsmanship is painstaking, no compromises, pursuit of utter perfection. Rush-jobs are the antithesis of their philosophy.

This immediately jumped out at me as making no sense, lore-wise, although of course it's a handy, if completely contrived, plot hook to bring in the Dorfs.

Almost equally bizarre is that when ordered, for no apparent reason, to do something he clearly understands to be impossible, Elrond doesn't even ask "What's the hurry?"

[Radhruin_EU]

Also, Mordor mountains are such a natural geographical barrier that there is NO way they would be a part of the same geographical area/province with the exact same name for it as the other "Gondorian" part of Southlands. These names don't make ANY sense. These people are utter morons. Well...

Unless the mountains aren't quite so, well, mountainous yet and Sauron's going to evil them up some.

The village being called Tirharad makes no sense because that's an Elvish name, they hate the Elves, there was obviously some stuff there before (there are old bits of ruins with ominous carvings) and the next village over, Hordern (the one that now looks like it's from Diablo, lol) has an English placename. I can;t believe how badly the names suck. 'Bronwyn' is Welsh, 'Theo' most likely short for some Gothic name like Theobald if I had to guess (that's if they can manage to be Tolkienesque at all), the two don't go together. Of course there's the mystery of who Theo's dad is.

Yeah, but in this context it's not really such a big deal if elves are such baddies already :P I wonder if we get any "wait, are we the baddies?" memes with Arondir.

His little adventure down the hole reminded me of The Descent (the cave-dwellers were kind of Orc-like). But I just want to know how he keeps his fade so fresh. (Elves apparently have hair-clippers...)

I think the scene with Theo and the barn may have been edited down. Also, Theo is annoying enough that he makes a completely convincing teenager so I honestly can't fault them if that's what they're going for, Now I just want to know what the sword does.

They used to be, yeah, ages ago. It's that stupid that it's even called out in-universe but the series treats it like "oh, makes sense, they might still be evil just because, gotta keep them in check" or something. Realistically, they could just fall under the shadow/influence of Sauron (or other men) just as easily as any other men would, Numenoreans included. So it's just so... anti-intellectual and bleh what they're going for here.

Ah, but if they're Easterlings they'd be Wild Men. hence more apt to evil than some. Funny thing is though their houses are typical faux-Renaissance, vaguely Mitteleuropean fantasy fare as they've got quite large windows and chimneys and things, which doesn't go with that. Also, did you notice how they're all typical scruffy peasants yet Bronwyn is dressed better?

Halbrand? I think he is Sauron, after all, and Nerdortic and others are right.

Halbrand seems more like he's hiding something about who he is on a mundane level, like maybe he's trying to get away from someone or something. That thing he has may be magical somehow, like that sword is (and the Orcs may have been looking for that like they seemed to be looking for the sword). But the sword appears to have Sauron's symbol on it and the medallion or whatever it is has something else.

For Witch-king... Theo, I think. Think about it...

He's just a brat, hardly seems like evil sorcerer-king material on the face of it. Unless his dad was unusual in some way. (It would explain why the sword reacts to him, I guess).

(And the lack of warmth between him and his mother could have something to do with the missing father, like maybe he blames her or something. Maybe she just won't talk about him. The other kids in the village have probably mocked him a lot for having no dad).

[Radhruin_EU]

This immediately jumped out at me as making no sense, lore-wise, although of course it's a handy, if completely contrived, plot hook to bring in the Dorfs.

Sadly that sounds very much like the sort of thing the show-runners might do. Unless there's some very specific timing Celebrimbor needs to hit for some special project he already has in mind, some astronomical alignment or conjunction or whatever.

Almost equally bizarre is that when ordered, for no apparent reason, to do something he clearly understands to be impossible, Elrond doesn't even ask "What's the hurry?"

Probably thinking that if he can sort this it'll earn him a lot of favour with his boss, and he's all about going up in the world (he wants to be an Elf-lord).

[TesalionLortus]

Also, did you notice how they're all typical scruffy peasants yet Bronwyn is dressed better?

Of course she would be dressed better to reflect her "modernity" and being learnt. She is the only person there who is smart and non-racist, vs all the misogynistic men and other usual subjects.

Halbrand seems more like he's hiding something about who he is on a mundane level, like maybe he's trying to get away from someone or something. That thing he has may be magical somehow, like that sword is (and the Orcs may have been looking for that like they seemed to be looking for the sword). But the sword appears to have Sauron's symbol on it and the medallion or whatever it is has something else.

Could be, can't be certain of anything but he might as well just play the part, his "backstory" wasn't very convincing to begin with. It wouldn't be too far off (in this show I mean) if he turned out to be Sauron temporary resigned from the job of the bad guy, in some sort of mental crisis & on the run from other aspiring bad guys like Adar. Typing this made it even more plausible in my mind just now because I just remembered one of the earliest articles where they mentioned something about there being some kind of rivalry/tension, or something like that, between Sauron/Adar. So hmm, time will tell, though him as Sauron would have been more fun, I guess. Let him toy with Psyladriel, could be a great popcorn material. But if he is just regular man with some actual, possibly boring issues oh boy, probably even more insufferable going forward.

I didn't bother to pause or zoom in but what's on his medallion kind of reminded me of what's on the Tirharad ruins. Kind of demonic, ominous shape or creatures or something like that? So perhaps there is a connection, maybe Morgoth religion or something

[TesalionLortus]

Celebrimbor tells Elrond that the new super-forge has to be ready in a year. Why?

Maybe... in a year the High-king plans to dissolve the Middle-earth senate permanently. The ring-bearers will have complete control over their territories!

[Radhruin_EU]

She wasn't even the senior Noldorin female in Exile.

Finwe's second wife (Indis) and first daughter (Findis) were still alive and well in Valinor, and Finwe's second daughter (Irime, older sister of G's dad) went to Middle-earth, and we don't know what her fate was. Any surviving daughters of Findis or Irime would have been above Galadriel in the pecking order too.

Second Age, dude. Who's who in Valinor is neither here nor there. Irime is nowhere to be seen and like a lot of other people might be dead or gone into the West after the War of Wrath.

Also, I don't think Tolkien got your memo

[LagunaD2]

Other than deceiving Melian about the rebellion of the Noldor and the kinslaying, Galadriel apparently did nothing much worthy of note during the momentous events of the First Age.

Whatever status she has at the start of the Second Age is thanks to the deeds of her father and brother (neither of whom are in Middle-earth).

[DavidmeetHal]

I do not know if this is true or not, but I've been hearing that both Amazon and IMDb are clamping down on negative reviews. I haven't tried it out so I don't know how accurate this is.

[Radhruin_EU]

I do not know if this is true or not, but I've been hearing that both Amazon and IMDb are clamping down on negative reviews. I haven't tried it out so I don't know how accurate this is.

I can vouch for that for Amazon, there's a 72-hour embargo on reviews and they say they're going to vet negative reviews to check that people actually watched it. That applies to all their in-house content now. It'll be interesting to see what happens when the 72 hours are up.

IMDb have zapped all the negative reviews. I'm not kidding, if you check their website and filter the reviews by rating there are no reviews which are 5/10 stars or less.

[Schattenhand]

Surprise, IMDb is a subsidiary of Amazon

[LagunaD2]

Surprise, IMDb is a subsidiary of Amazon

Surprise, not a shred of evidence, just tin-foil hat conspiracy theories.

There are hundreds, if not thousands, of places reviews appear in print and electronically. It's ludicrous to suggest that Amazon's black helicopters can stifle bad reviews in any significant way.

[LagunaD2]

I'm not kidding, if you check their website and filter the reviews by rating there are no reviews which are 5/10 stars or less.

Completely false:

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7631058...?ref_=tt_ov_rt

[littlesquinky]

Completely false:

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7631058...?ref_=tt_ov_rt

Completely true. The reviews, not the ratings. Check: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7631058...ratingFilter=5 . Check HOD for a comparison https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1119833...ratingFilter=1.

[LagunaD2]

The IMDb ratings breakdown by demographic is interesting.

Women rated the show a little higher than men, but there were almost 10x as many male reviewers.

So if they are aiming the show at feminist women, they have failed, epically.

And also predictably. With no offense intended to the ladies who enjoy Tolkien, no one could have had the slightest doubt that the viewership of this series would skew *heavily* male.

House of the Dragon's IMDb ratings are *vastly* superior, so if Amazon is trying to cheat, they're not doing a very good job:

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1119833...?ref_=tt_ov_rt

[Radhruin_EU]

Surprise, not a shred of evidence, just tin-foil hat conspiracy theories.

Amazon owns IMDb, it's trivial to confirm that and the reviews there have plainly been censored in a way that doesn't happen for other people's productions. Where there are strings that they can pull, they're pulling them.

Look at Rotten Tomatoes, the difference between critic ratings and user ratings there: it's currently at 84% to 39%.

When it comes to critic reviews, access media is a thing: they say positive things about products so that they'll keep their privileged access because their business depends on that. It's the exact same reason game reviews became so undependable.

[LagunaD2]

Panning a show for having a diverse cast, or for what people associated with it said in interviews off the screen, is political axe-grinding.

Amazon should allow good-faith negative artistic criticism, but I can understand why they'd filter out an orchestrated campaign of political manifestos masquerading as reviews.

And I still maintain that there are so many outlets for word-of-mouth these days that nobody can hope to control it.

[Secantur]

They have so limited rights, the Show Runners will have to lean on their own creativity. Or hired creativity for this one.


The names are distributed without care.


-Dis is a norse/nordic name meaning -sister. You can't say Disa. I know. My Grandmother was named Frøydis. You *can not* say Frøydisa. It's a tacked on letter, made to make it sound more feminine.

Nori? Male Dwarf name, used on female Hobbit.

Elanor? Flower that grow in Lorien. Anachronistic usage. These Hobbits can't have known the name at this time. If they had existed themselves.


Of all the thing they should care about, this would be it. Names. Because this was the foundation of the works of Tolkien. Names and language.

And boy, do they fail with the language. The metaphors operate in a strange vacuum. One without pathos, or even ethos, I dare say.


Also, you can't have two Dwarves with the name of Durin at the same time. It is the same individual, reborn. It ruins their core beliefs.

It's easy to spot elements of contemporary digital culture outside of the plastic armors, by references to the "Dragon Age" computer game series. Like calling the Elves Knife-Ears, in addition to the look and feel of Khazad-Dum. The inspiration is real.

They even use fast travel to get there. No horses or traveling arrangements. That's for pansies. In a world where travel is the major focus, no less.



These people do not even use what they have the rights for properly. How can they build a house, when they neglect the foundation.

Maybe it is because they are not in the business of building. But in the business of tearing down what others have built.


---

[LabadalofDorlomin]

Well I really enjoyed the first 3 episodes and i think it will continue to get better.

I understand those who feel this is trash, simply because you have been very vocal since the first glimpse of a trailer and your minds were firmly set that way.

But for those who take it on face value and as a TV series based loosely in and around Tolkiens worlds then I hope it becomes a big hit and goes on for many years.

Still thinking Halbrand could be Witch King ??