Lord of the Rings The Rings of Power

[LagunaD2]

Still thinking Halbrand could be Witch King ??

I'd be surprised if he's the Witch King (it seems pretty likely to me that the WK would be Numenorean, although AFAIK the canon doesn't confirm that), but as a king of men, he might be a Nazgul someday.

Another possibility is that he's the oath-breaker king.

[TesalionLortus]

I understand those who feel this is trash, simply because you have been very vocal since the first glimpse of a trailer and your minds were firmly set that way.

But for those who take it on face value and as a TV series based loosely in and around Tolkiens worlds

Do not "simplify" "explain us away" or anything of that sort, I've seen plenty of people online who do just that and it is sad, to be honest, like everyone who doesn't like it is being "othered" into the "this stubborn brick!" category. It's not because our minds are firmly set that way and we don't have an open mind - it's because it's a TV series based VERY VERY loosely on source material (and what Tolkien intended) to the point where any real lore substance is reduced to 1 second easter eggs or background props (but plot? nope, not from lore in any shape nor form). This hurts even more than it would have under normal circumstances because Amazon greenlighted all 5 seasons from the start... which means they could have done amazing series, with no time constraints that usually force writers to change/twist things too much and make some hard calls, not to mention the ever-looming shadow of cancellation so you're not even planning for 5-season arc from the get go. They had 5 seasons on a plater from the get go but they went and twisted everything anyway, even more so than some creators who only get 1 season of something... and that's kind of like a stab in the back...

But yeah, well, you don't have to worry... it's 5 seasons guaranteed...

Still thinking Halbrand could be Witch King ??

I'm still thinking Sauron. They said in one of the interviews some time ago that Witch-king will have an arc or something in Season 3, so I guess we haven't met him yet.

[LabadalofDorlomin]

Do not "simplify" "explain us away" or anything of that sort, I've seen plenty of people online who do just that and it is sad, to be honest, like everyone who doesn't like it is being "othered" into the "this stubborn brick!" category.

Look, we all knew what the offering would be. It was always going to be an interpretation to fit the mass market. Is that a good enough reason for them not to do it?

Well not for me.

I love fan fiction. Lotro, although trying to follow lore is a great version of fan fiction but even they jump the shark on occasions.

If you don't like it that is fine... I do enjoy it for what it is. If it becomes super silly to the point that I change my mind then I will let you know.

[alwaysbroke]

I'm liking this fan fiction. Nothing says good fan fiction like taking the king of all fantasy epics through an alternate universe, and burning 1 billion in the process. I accept that it may ultimately be a disaster. It's not like anyone is throwing 1 billion at this game's dev studio (any time soon). I'm certainly not getting a 4K experience here. At least if I spend my sub money on Amazon, it improves the IP value.

[TesalionLortus]

Look, we all knew what the offering would be. It was always going to be an interpretation to fit the mass market. Is that a good enough reason for them not to do it?

Well not for me.

How so? Should would not embrace quality ? Should we not want it anymore as part of our experiences? Who said anything about not doing it at all? Why just not do it better? What was there to loose? Seeing how there is a big backlash because many people dislike it, and considering the fact that if it was actually done better, up to higher standards, people who can enjoy it in its current form would probably enjoy it in its better form too... why not better then? and why say this "was to be expected"? This kind of reasoning baffles me. Also, this "too high expectations" argument is utterly broken, because even House of the Dragon appears to be more respectful than RoP. Proof enough it can be done. Anyway, I merely said what's the actual reason, but now it sounds - despite what I've just said - as if you were trying to say "you had too great, unreasonable expectations!" so same old story again. But this is not true, my expectations were pretty reasonable and sane.

[Whohaz_Duhrang]

Well Anyways Eliminating All Those IQ Detracting Posts., The Show Is Terrible., I Will Say Even Visually Too., The Practical Effects / Landscapes (few) All Could Easily Be Captured By Someone With A Flip Phone., And The CGI Hooooolllly Shiiii! Have None Of You Seen A Good Movie Before? haha Like How Can You Compare Trash To Said Good Movie., Idk But Maybe Quit Smoking So Much, Or Spend Some Of Your Lives Watching Good Cinema? (though only to those that defend do I say go spend your lives

But In Reality The Show Just Pushes Allegory’s., Simply Because Of That, The Show Shouldn’t Even Be Given A Chance, But Seeing How Some Deem That Is Not Enough (though foolish they are to not believe those who say and do as they’ve said they’ll say and do) Validity To One’s Opinion I Encourage You To Recommend This Trash To Someone You Know, Whom Has Not Seen It., Though They May Not Say., Id Bet Money Your Peer’s Perception Of You Will Definitely Be Changed., And Not For The Better xD

Anyways Most Dont Give Af About Skin Color., It’s The Fact They’re Pushing It On Us., Most Dont Give Af If It’s A Woah-Man, But Quit Pushing It On Us., People Have Opinions By What’s Right And Wrong Just As We Have Opinions On Religion, Politics, Morality., But Nay Should We Put These Things On Each Other For Obviously Thatd Induce Debate / Argument.. But These Producers Know This And Have Formed A Well Beloved IP Around It: Relevancy By Whatever Means., Sad To See People Cannot Discern, Are Ignorant To Discern., Or Are Truly Unable To Discern Due To Upbringing., That These Producers Are Pushing Agenda.

But Know This., All This Thats Happening World Wide, In Media, Everywhere That Can Be Fathomed., Has Already Been Foretold To Happen As People Fall Away From Their Love With God., Lawlessness Will Be Virtuous., And Common Place It Will Be., Just As The Days Of Sodom And Gomorrah Where All Indulged In Sexual Immorality., All Within., Young, Old., All Surround The House So They May Know Yet The Angels Withinside (sexually) Genesis 19: 1-38 The Latter Days We Live In., Will You Be Saved? Most Know Deep Down Where They Are Destined For., Dont Be Amongst The Dead., You Can Live

[Radhruin_EU]

Do not "simplify" "explain us away" or anything of that sort, I've seen plenty of people online who do just that and it is sad, to be honest, like everyone who doesn't like it is being "othered" into the "this stubborn brick!" category. It's not because our minds are firmly set that way and we don't have an open mind - it's because it's a TV series based VERY VERY loosely on source material (and what Tolkien intended) to the point where any real lore substance is reduced to 1 second easter eggs or background props (but plot? nope, not from lore in any shape nor form).

The problems with the writing etc. would be bad even if it were just a completely standalone fantasy series. It's not just about it being really bad as what it's billed as.

[Hephburz-2]

Well Anyways Eliminating All Those IQ Detracting Posts., The Show Is Terrible., I Will Say Even Visually Too., The Practical Effects / Landscapes (few) All Could Easily Be Captured By Someone With A Flip Phone., And The CGI Hooooolllly Shiiii! Have None Of You Seen A Good Movie Before? haha Like How Can You Compare Trash To Said Good Movie., Idk But Maybe Quit Smoking So Much, Or Spend Some Of Your Lives Watching Good Cinema? (though only to those that defend do I say go spend your lives

But In Reality The Show Just Pushes Allegory’s., Simply Because Of That, The Show Shouldn’t Even Be Given A Chance, But Seeing How Some Deem That Is Not Enough (though foolish they are to not believe those who say and do as they’ve said they’ll say and do) Validity To One’s Opinion I Encourage You To Recommend This Trash To Someone You Know, Whom Has Not Seen It., Though They May Not Say., Id Bet Money Your Peer’s Perception Of You Will Definitely Be Changed., And Not For The Better xD

Anyways Most Dont Give Af About Skin Color., It’s The Fact They’re Pushing It On Us., Most Dont Give Af If It’s A Woah-Man, But Quit Pushing It On Us., People Have Opinions By What’s Right And Wrong Just As We Have Opinions On Religion, Politics, Morality., But Nay Should We Put These Things On Each Other For Obviously Thatd Induce Debate / Argument.. But These Producers Know This And Have Formed A Well Beloved IP Around It: Relevancy By Whatever Means., Sad To See People Cannot Discern, Are Ignorant To Discern., Or Are Truly Unable To Discern Due To Upbringing., That These Producers Are Pushing Agenda.

But Know This., All This Thats Happening World Wide, In Media, Everywhere That Can Be Fathomed., Has Already Been Foretold To Happen As People Fall Away From Their Love With God., Lawlessness Will Be Virtuous., And Common Place It Will Be., Just As The Days Of Sodom And Gomorrah Where All Indulged In Sexual Immorality., All Within., Young, Old., All Surround The House So They May Know Yet The Angels Withinside (sexually) Genesis 19: 1-38 The Latter Days We Live In., Will You Be Saved? Most Know Deep Down Where They Are Destined For., Dont Be Amongst The Dead., You Can Live

Ok. Firstly can you please stop capitasing every single word? How tediously time consuming. Secondly, can you take your religion out of these forums, this is Lotro, not a sermon.

Lastly, as it stands, yeah, the show has an agenda, who cares? Why does it actually matter? Does it matter if they set out to create a strong female character and made sure to include so many POC? The fact that you guys are so up in arms about it really shows something else about all of your personalities. Why do you genuinely care if they have random POC cast for roles that aren't normally meant for POC? How many straight people have played LGBT characters over the years? They are actors, acting, you are entirely welcome to your preconceptions about how you think the cast "should" look, and the author of the material is entirely welcome to his opinions of how his characters "should" look, or how they are written as looking. It's an adaptation, meaning, no, it's not going to be 100% accurate or true to the source material, show me ONE film or tv show that is based on a book or other written medium that is?? You won't find one.

For my own opinion, despite having read the Silmarillion, the fall of Numenor, LOTR, the hobbit and as much as everything else written about Middle-Earth and it's Lore, I find the show highly enjoyable and am happy to be immersed in that world again on screen, no it's not accurate, no it's not true to the lore, but I don't really care, the show itself is entertaining on it's own merit, sure I have my own complaints, and things I'd like to have seen done differently, or look differently (the dwarves especially), but I can still enjoy it for what it is.

If it honestly makes you guys this crazed or upset, maybe, really, just don't watch it and don't have anything to do with it? Or do you just need something new to moan about?

[TesalionLortus]

The problems with the writing etc. would be bad even if it were just a completely standalone fantasy series. It's not just about it being really bad as what it's billed as.

That's true as well. I try to imagine what Bezos might think about this project currently but it's unconceivable. Is this possible... it's everything he dreamed of? Not as Tolkien tale but as a TV product.

[TesalionLortus]

LOL. HolySolution78's comment was pretty wild and yeah, hard to read, not something you see very often. Nobody should bring religion into this (or conspiracy theories?).

It's an adaptation, meaning, no, it's not going to be 100% accurate or true to the source material, show me ONE film or tv show that is based on a book or other written medium that is?? You won't find one.

Why are you people so hang up on "100%" accurate when no one ever said that??? You're right but I could show you some which are done far better and more accurate... and they were not the most expensive TV shows in history with 5-season arc greenlighted from the start, something that provides even greater maneuverability to decently adapt a story.

no it's not accurate, no it's not true to the lore, but I don't really care, the show itself is entertaining on it's own merit, sure I have my own complaints, and things I'd like to have seen done differently, or look differently (the dwarves especially), but I can still enjoy it for what it is.

If it honestly makes you guys this crazed or upset, maybe, really, just don't watch it and don't have anything to do with it? Or do you just need something new to moan about?

Not crazed. We just voice an opinion, nothing else. If that's "bad" (how so?) then you should go and combat every single person on this forum who voices their disappointment with SSG and lag.

[Radhruin_EU]

Lastly, as it stands, yeah, the show has an agenda, who cares? Why does it actually matter?

Who cares? How about everyone who's tired of legacy IPs being hijacked like that. The people behind such stuff are typically too uncreative, too risk-averse or both to come up with something original which would readily reflect whatever sort of story they want to tell and whatever they want to include in that, so they latch onto something else they can derive brand recognition from and then try to hammer that into whatever shape will suit their purpose. And typically, because they have no respect for the original, can't be subtle (got to sledgehammer that point home!) and can't write for toffee it gets mauled horribly in the process. It matters because the 'product' that comes out of the end of that is bad.

Like here with RoP: we don't simply have a strong female character (since you mentioned that), nor was that lacking in the original. Instead they've taken an existing strong female character people liked and turned her into an utterly obnoxious Mary Sue meets Karen who scowls most of the time, seems literally incapable of being reasonable when talking to anybody unless they do exactly what she wants, cares nothing for the lives of those in her charge or apparently anyone else's needs, wants or feelings, has plot armour so thick it's ridiculous, and things generally just drop into her path because the plot needs them to (some might call that fate, I call it bad writing). And there's plenty more where that came from.

[LolarGagger]

I am excited to watch it.

[LagunaD2]

Like here with RoP: we don't simply have a strong female character (since you mentioned that), nor was that lacking in the original. Instead they've taken an existing strong female character people liked and turned her into an utterly obnoxious Mary Sue meets Karen who scowls most of the time, seems literally incapable of being reasonable when talking to anybody unless they do exactly what she wants, cares nothing for the lives of those in her charge or apparently anyone else's needs, wants or feelings, has plot armour so thick it's ridiculous, and things generally just drop into her path because the plot needs them to (some might call that fate, I call it bad writing). And there's plenty more where that came from.

If one were determined to trash the original books, I think you could make a lot of the same criticisms. Gandalf, Aragorn and Boromir, among others, are arrogant and don't suffer being challenged or gainsaid. Serendipity and plot armor are also present in abundance. The difference, IMO, is that Tolkien is a master story-teller, working in a different (written) medium, and sells it better.

[Radhruin_EU]

If one were determined to trash the original books, I think you could make a lot of the same criticisms. Gandalf, Aragorn and Boromir, among others, are arrogant and don't suffer being challenged or gainsaid. Serendipity and plot armor are also present in abundance. The difference, IMO, is that Tolkien is a master story-teller, working in a different (written) medium, and sells it better.

You're equivocating there, because you're not providing examples or showing that they'd be open to those same criticisms to anything close to the same degree. Like when Aragorn chafes against handing over the Sword of Kings to Theoden's door-wardens then yes, he does lay it on a bit thick but that's the sort of thing you'd see traditionally in stories like this. It's because it's no ordinary sword, it's a named legendary blade and an heirloom of an ancient house that dates back to the First Age.

Being arrogant is "exaggerating or disposed to exaggerate one's own worth or importance often by an overbearing manner" so you'd need to catch them actually doing that. As for being challenged or gainsaid it depends on who's doing the challenging. RoP's Galadriel really is arrogant and doesn't care who's doing the challenging, be it the High King of the Noldor or the ruler of Numenor. (And that's what makes her a Karen, wanting to see the manager and doing the "don't you know who I am" thing). Contrast that with how when Aragorn first enters Minas Tirith, he does so without fuss and furls his banner, saying he's just a captain of the Rangers (even though Eomer and Imrahil have accepted him as who he is) so as not to be seen as forcing his claim on Gondor - it was better for them to acclaim him king themselves, as they did later.

The medium doesn't signify if we're talking abut dialogue. It's someone saying something in a given situation, you have to be able to imagine that person saying that out loud, in context, even if you're just reading it.

[DavidmeetHal]

Lastly, as it stands, yeah, the show has an agenda, who cares? Why does it actually matter? Does it matter if they set out to create a strong female character and made sure to include so many POC? The fact that you guys are so up in arms about it really shows something else about all of your personalities. Why do you genuinely care if they have random POC cast for roles that aren't normally meant for POC? How many straight people have played LGBT characters over the years? They are actors, acting, you are entirely welcome to your preconceptions about how you think the cast "should" look, and the author of the material is entirely welcome to his opinions of how his characters "should" look, or how they are written as looking. It's an adaptation, meaning, no, it's not going to be 100% accurate or true to the source material, show me ONE film or tv show that is based on a book or other written medium that is?? You won't find one.

Because it's totally in your face every where you go. And don't bring up the strong female character. Strong female characters have been around since films started over a century ago. And strong non Caucasians have been around for longer than most of us have been alive, so don't try that either.

It's the constant skin color and gender agenda that's forced everywhere that makes people get tired, and I have a pretty strong feeling that it's not just straight male Caucasians that are tired of it too.

It's a simple case of "here we go again!". Game of Thrones never went that route, and they had plenty of characters that weren't Caucasian, and that show never shoved it in your face like this show does. So yeah, I do care if a show has an agenda.

This is why I don't like the show.

[LagunaD2]

Apart from the decision to include a diverse cast, there is no "agenda" being pushed in the plot of Rings of Power that isn't also present in the source material.

Animosity and suspicion toward people of different cultures shows up frequently in the books - even the ostensibly naive The Hobbit.

A small number of female characters who aren't submissive to their male peers also play key roles in Middle-earth's history: Melian, Luthien, Elwing, Galadriel and Eowyn.

The writing has plenty of room for improvement, but the central plot elements aren't innovations and were all explored by Tolkien himself.

[Radhruin_EU]

Apart from the decision to include a diverse cast, there is no "agenda" being pushed in the plot of Rings of Power that isn't also present in the source material.

Animosity and suspicion toward people of different cultures shows up frequently in the books - even the ostensibly naive The Hobbit.

In the books it's presented more as tribalism than racism as RoP does it. Lindsey Weber said "It felt only natural to us that an adaptation of Tolkien's work would reflect what the world actually looks like" which apparently includes not just peoples mistrusting each other for historical reasons (past conflicts) as happens in the books but verbal harassment including phrases like 'you people', racial epithets (like that 'knife-ears' thing they lifted from Dragon Age) and it being aggressively confrontational and potentially violent at the drop of a hat, at the level of ordinary people. So it's presented differently, it's far more direct and persistent in RoP. It's also overdone: Halbrand in Numenor, for example, is just one guy, he's only just got there, and straight away they treat him like a one-man immigrant army there to take their jobs. Ridiculous.

A small number of female characters who aren't submissive to their male peers also play key roles in Middle-earth's history: Melian, Luthien, Elwing, Galadriel and Eowyn.

And are they presented as being as horrible, insufferable people like RoP's Galadriel? No, they are not. Or as Mary Sues? No, they are not. It's not about there simply being strong female characters, it's how they're presented, what they're like and how other characters relate to them. (Like in RoP when Galadriel's men are shown being weak and ineffective just to make her look better).

The writing has plenty of room for improvement, but the central plot elements aren't innovations and were all explored by Tolkien himself.

In no way are you comparing like with like. The way they're using them is very different and the show-runners are beating the audience about the head with them. They're making a big deal out of them in a clumsily obtrusive way Tolkien doesn't, because he didn't have that agenda.

[LagunaD2]

In the books it's presented more as tribalism than racism as RoP does it. Lindsey Weber said "It felt only natural to us that an adaptation of Tolkien's work would reflect what the world actually looks like" which apparently includes not just peoples mistrusting each other for historical reasons (past conflicts) as happens in the books but verbal harassment including phrases like 'you people', racial epithets (like that 'knife-ears' thing they lifted from Dragon Age) and it being aggressively confrontational and potentially violent at the drop of a hat, at the level of ordinary people. So it's presented differently, it's far more direct and persistent in RoP. It's also overdone: Halbrand in Numenor, for example, is just one guy, he's only just got there, and straight away they treat him like a one-man immigrant army there to take their jobs. Ridiculous.

He's different, and he comes from a group that Numenoreans have come to look down on. Their reaction to Galadriel showed their hostility to the Eldar, but *that* hostility is founded on insecurity, jealousy and their feelings of inferiority. The scenes with Halbrand are important to show a different angle - they also look down on their fellow men, but for (outwardly) different reasons. Arguably, it is really two sides of the same coin, and a perfectly reasonable way to demonstrate the attitudes of the King's Men. And everybody involved was white, so there is no "agenda" trying evoke real-life racism against people of color. Treating people badly because you feel superior to them is wrong, regardless of what characteristics it's based on.

Also, it's entirely possible that Numenor has imported "low men" as cheap or even enslaved labor.

And are they presented as being as horrible, insufferable people like RoP's Galadriel? No, they are not. Or as Mary Sues? No, they are not. It's not about there simply being strong female characters, it's how they're presented, what they're like and how other characters relate to them. (Like in RoP when Galadriel's men are shown being weak and ineffective just to make her look better).

Tolkien's male characters are certainly sometimes insufferable: Boromir; Denethor; Feanor and his sons; Turin.

Luthien and Eowyn arguably have some characteristics of Mary-Sues (although Eowyn also showed vulnerability).

It's true that Tolkien tended to idealize the smaller number of his important female characters.

I do wish they'd used a softer, less abrasive touch with Galadriel. There were some signs off that in Episode 3, so we'll see.

In no way are you comparing like with like. The way they're using them is very different and the show-runners are beating the audience about the head with them.

i disagree. I think you're being hyper-sensitive and twisting what's actually on the screen into knots, in your determination to take offense.

They're making a big deal out of them in a clumsily obtrusive way Tolkien doesn't, because he didn't have that agenda.

I disagree.

[TesalionLortus]

He's different, and he comes from a group that Numenoreans have come to look down on. Their reaction to Galadriel showed their hostility to the Eldar, but *that* hostility is founded on insecurity, jealousy and their feelings of inferiority. The scenes with Halbrand are important to show a different angle - they also look down on their fellow men, but for (outwardly) different reasons. Arguably, it is really two sides of the same coin, and a perfectly reasonable way to demonstrate the attitudes of the King's Men. And everybody involved was white, so there is no "agenda" trying evoke real-life racism against people of color. Treating people badly because you feel superior to them is wrong, regardless of what characteristics it's based on.

Also, it's entirely possible that Numenor has imported "low men" as cheap or even enslaved labor.

The scene itself wasn't bad, albeit you completely ignore what they say about him "taking away their jobs" (the point immediately brought up like it's a big deal, which is nonsense, because he can't even get a job in the first place without that guild badge) which IS a modern signpost, can't be more obvious than that. But Radh already mentioned the fact and you're are silent about it. Why not comment on that, I wonder? And we know they're having agenda from lots of other scenes as well as ALL the interviews with the actors and producers, so it's pretty obvious. Things that are there, artificially and needlessly, despite them not belonging in canon, just to shoehorn said agenda. Which is a terrible, uncreative, completely-missing-the-point writing. The talk of "no forgiveness because the sins of their ancestors stick to them, they're the same people and can't be trusted" or "when will you people finally let the past go" said by an angry white man to a black actor (who bragged a lot about how he is supposedly changing the world and erasing racism with this role). Plenty of evidences.

Otherwise, I actually liked the scene at the bar, if I forget all the nonsensical context. At least it was "trying" to show Numenorean sense of superiority over the men of Middle-earth, however....... oh, yes, I'm quickly reminded that in this version Numenor never colonized anything (apparently) so they hardly ever interacted with "low men" of Middle-earth and their ways to begin with, other than through trade - so hardly any reason to grow such feelings and view these people as inferior so strongly - plus, something that should have been a part of Numenor, actual racism and purity of blood, at least among the elites, was erased here. Just like their colonialist ways and decent military fleets. For *reasons* Maybe because they didn't want to show actual, cool Places of Color of Middle-earth where ALL peoples are POCs? Who can even tell. So RoP can try to focus on their sense of superiority over "low men" all they want but it hardly makes any logical sense, comes across as something shallow and forced. It's like being obsessive over this one ingredient but you don't have/show other ones, not to mention they're erasing the entire cauldron that made these ingredients into what they were in Tolkien's canon. Slaves? Imported labor? Doubtful, remember, no military fleet and never been to war. Also, in Numenor "you don't kneel" and everyone is cool with Miriel in charge without much of a hassle (the kind you would see throughout history or in something like GoT) so they're this Equality Island of Diversity but at the same time super racist against one low man that just happened to be brought there from a wreckage. Nothing here adds up well, which is sad. Numenor would have been a great tale about racism and evils of colonialism if adapted well - but see, then it wouldn't be a forced agenda with buzzwords, it would be just natural and organic, basically just a good story. But they don't know how to do that, evidently. A good story.

I do wish they'd used a softer, less abrasive touch with Galadriel. There were some signs off that in Episode 3, so we'll see.

Like when she is being very unreasonable (and that's a soft word) before the elites of Numenor, when she pulls a dagger on Elendil who saved her life and when she ignores him completely (when he is being a sympathetic character that I liked and talking elf stuff) only to order him around and immediately tell him where he must take her? Very soft indeed... but apparently a smile on a horsey is enough of a sign for you. Well, we shall see, but to me it looked like she was even more abrasive than usual in 3.

i disagree. I think you're being hyper-sensitive and twisting what's actually on the screen into knots, in your determination to take offense.

Or you're being blindfolded, willingly or not, hard to tell. It doesn't take "determination" to dislike something. People dislike something because they have clear reasons to. Which is evidently happening in this case but - indeed - I see people all around trying to look the other way and frame everyone else who voiced any criticism as "overemotional" "of extremely high standards" and "hyper-sensitive." It's crazy.

[Radhruin_EU]

He's different, and he comes from a group that Numenoreans have come to look down on.

The guys on the street don't know who he is or quite where he's from, they don't know if his people were related to the Edain (they'd probably cut him more slack, if so) or if he's an Easterling (which he is, by implication) because there's nothing in particular that makes him look different to anybody else there. Obviously if this was Tolkien's Numenor it'd be real obvious he was Not From Around Here but here, it isn't. But the first reaction people should have to him would be curiosity, not animosity because one guy by himself's just that, a curiosity.

Their reaction to Galadriel showed their hostility to the Eldar, but *that* hostility is founded on insecurity, jealousy and their feelings of inferiority. The scenes with Halbrand are important to show a different angle - they also look down on their fellow men, but for (outwardly) different reasons. Arguably, it is really two sides of the same coin, and a perfectly reasonable way to demonstrate the attitudes of the King's Men. And everybody involved was white, so there is no "agenda" trying evoke real-life racism against people of color. Treating people badly because you feel superior to them is wrong, regardless of what characteristics it's based on.

Not quite, it's that they feel the Valar and the Elves have been lying to them all along. That's why they no longer trust the Elves. The agenda shows in presenting this recognisable (if caricatured) take on urban racism which (as history should tell you) was never confined to skin colour. Like the way the Irish used to be looked down on and 'othered'. So he's a symbolic immigrant and the locals don't like his face, and as such that's applicable to lots of people. (See how you can do that without forced diversity? Funny how they can do that when it suits them).

Also, it's entirely possible that Numenor has imported "low men" as cheap or even enslaved labor.

Not really. They kept the outside world at arm's length on account of the whole High Men thing and there's no sign that's any different here (if there was an underclass like that it'd be obvious). The real nastiness with slave labour happened in their colonies in Middle-earth after Sauron got to them and they wanted to extract massive resources (timber, in particular) from the mainland for the 'Great Armament', the fleet that Ar-Pharazon built to invade Valinor.

Besides, if they used cheap immigrant labour for menial jobs on the island then the conversation would have gone differently - he'd have been told to go find work in the docks, or whatever. That would still have worked, it's just not apparently the idea here.

Tolkien's male characters are certainly sometimes insufferable

The operative word there would be 'sometimes', not all the damn time like RoP's Galadriel. And it's a matter of degree, she's got it turned up to 11. Feanor's an odd one out there as he'd got tortured genius written all over him, he was plainly unstable. (And Galadriel is certainly not meant to be like that). The Sons of Feanor weren't all alike so you need to say which one you're talking about and in any case, the Oath was driving them to their doom so a certain edginess went with that.

Luthien and Eowyn arguably have some characteristics of Mary-Sues (although Eowyn also showed vulnerability).

I don't think so. Eowyn is clearly emotionally vulnerable and the Witch-king would have killed her if Merry hadn't been there to help, and she ends up really badly hurt and near death (taking a sword to the Witch-king was no laughing matter), and it takes both Aragorn's help and Faramir being there to heal her mentally and physically. And Luthien wouldn't have been able to rescue Beren without Huan's help, and wouldn't have gotten out of Angband alive if Beren hadn't been there. Morgoth got owned because he underestimated her - thought he'd keep her as a trophy, like a pretty little songbird - but letting her sing (and not bothering to take a close look at what she was wearing) was a classic mythological gotcha. (Pro tip: when the Elf-lady is wearing a shadowy cloak woven from her own hair, watch out). Tolkien's careful to put some balance into things, like when Sauron turned himself into a great wolf he was so fell that Luthien swooned.

It's true that Tolkien tended to idealize the smaller number of his important female characters.

Idealised femininity is not at all the same as being a Mary Sue. And it's a mythological trope, it's not as if Tolkien invented it.

I do wish they'd used a softer, less abrasive touch with Galadriel. There were some signs off that in Episode 3, so we'll see.

Err, yeah? But the big mistake was to try to turn her into Galadriel: Warrior Princess in the first place. They're going to have to pull off something stunning to redeem that character now and I don't think they're up to it.

i disagree. I think you're being hyper-sensitive and twisting what's actually on the screen into knots, in your determination to take offense.

And there you're simply wrong. I don't habitually go looking for stuff like this but here it's not only unmistakable but so many other people have commented on it (and no, not just the 'usual suspects') that I'm plainly not imagining things. I've found other people closely echoing thoughts I've had, completely independently. So if anything this is about your determination to either not see it or not admit it.

I disagree.

You've given no grounds for that. What they've said shows they have an agenda. Amazon more generally have an agenda and make no secret of it. You being all "Nuh-uh" about it is neither here nor there.

[Echoweaver]

So far I'm really enjoying most of it. I keep having, "Oh!" moments where I see where their story ties into the lore. I'm fascinated by Numenor, both the visuals and the politics in this envisioning.

As far as time compression, they really do seem to be trying to minimize that as much as possible. We know that the immediate lead-up to the Fall of Numenor all the way through the end of the Second Age fits into the lives of Elendil and Isildur. Now that we see Numenor, it's farther down the corrupted road than I expected at the beginning of the show. The forging of the rings is the part that's being compressed.

If the forging of the rings is going to happen in parallel with the fall of Numenor, I'm curious to see how Sauron will be woven into these threads. IIRC, Sauron was captured and brought to Numenor, where he corrupted the kings there. OTOH, Sauron interacted with Celebrimbor as the elf Annatar.

On the critical side, even my 11yo said, "Wow, Galadriel must have found her wisdom some time before the Lord of the Rings because she sure doesn't have it now." Galadriel is at a different stage of her journey than she is in LotR, but she's still something like 8k years old with a huge amount of life experience. It stretches belief that she would be THIS headstrong. I hope she tones down at least a little bit.

I also wasn't wild about the treatment of the Harfoots in ep 3 indicating that they leave their infirm behind to die. I think that was much too heavy handed a way to get to the plot point they were going for with Meteor Man.

I also wouldn't have named our Harfoot protagonist Elanor. They don't have contact with the elves and wouldn't know that name for the flower. I assume the writers did that to foster some sort of connection between these proto-hobbits and our beloved Shire hobbits. I think they'd've done better to just give her a name after a known English wildflower. I'm not sure how many casual fans know that Sam's first daughter was named Elanor.

[TesalionLortus]

I keep having, "Oh!" moments where I see where their story ties into the lore.

This is how I imagined watching this series years ago, never expected complete accuracy. So you made me curious - which moments are you referring to?

I guess they named her Elanor because they couldn't come up with any original name and thought this will be such a "great" lore nod (more like a shallow easter egg) that fans familiar with the source will appreciate. That's basically most of their thinking, apparently. Same thing with Isildur hearing a voice in the distance, and then someone screams "Isildur" in the tone reminiscent of Elrond during the "toss it into the fire" scene from PJ. Each episode is filled with such moments, carefully planted (that nobody ever asked for, I would say, and it's not something anyone should center their plots and scenography around).

[Radhruin_EU]

As far as time compression, they really do seem to be trying to minimize that as much as possible. We know that the immediate lead-up to the Fall of Numenor all the way through the end of the Second Age fits into the lives of Elendil and Isildur. Now that we see Numenor, it's farther down the corrupted road than I expected at the beginning of the show. The forging of the rings is the part that's being compressed.

More of it than you might think: they've implied it's about a thousand years into the Second Age (about the time Mordor is founded, and you can see that's where things are going). What's being compressed is the next twenty-three hundred years or so. Not so minimal, really...

[Echoweaver]

This is how I imagined watching this series years ago, never expected complete accuracy. So you made me curious - which moments are you referring to?

The big OH was when I realized that the, "Southlands" were in the location that would become Mordor and Gondor, and that the corrupt land and the orc invasion was the beginning of the construction of Mordor.

Then they knocked us over the head with that revelation when Galadriel made the connection between her sigil and the landscape. But it was still pretty cool.

[LagunaD2]

Replacing all the race of men characters every season for (probably) the first four seasons would have been pretty awkward. In addition to losing cast continuity, it would have taxed the audience with several times more names.

They might have been able to pull it off by starting near the end (at a time when Elendil and sons are already alive) and flashing back to events before their time, but that would have created other complications.