Lord of the Rings The Rings of Power

[Aranaan]

There is only one conclusion to RoP

Its a damn travesty to Tolkiens world!

One the positive side, Amazon have buildt a 1:1 scale island of Numenour somewhere.

What else could they have wasted all that money on?

[LagunaD2]

Not anything that'd include RoP's version, but then they aren't really trying to be Tolkienesque except with the occasional Easter egg when it suits them. Tolkien plainly had some idea in his head of what the basic culture of Men in that part of the world looked like and by implication it's (broadly speaking) some sort of ancient Iron Age style culture where they have the typical cultural artefacts associated with old tales. Being written as constructed myths these exist in the same sort of imaginative space that the genuine Nordic, Celtic and Finnish ones do, some ancient heroic age. One not furnished with Renaissance-era creature comforts

And yet, the only place where he reveals in any detail how common people live is in The Shire, where 'creature comforts' are better known as 'necessities of life', and which is practically Victorian...

right back atcha...

[Radhruin_EU]

And yet, the only place where he reveals in any detail how common people live is in The Shire, where 'creature comforts' are better known as 'necessities of life', and which is practically Victorian...

right back atcha...

The Shire was invented for The Hobbit, a fairy-tale for children, as a sort of comfortably familiar starting-point to welcome his young readers before he hit them with the real substance of his legendarium. It's purposefully anachronistic. Feel free to contrast the Shire with how Beorn's house was shown to look by Tolkien himself (a classic long-house with the hearth in the middle of the floor!). And when pressed he referred to Edoras as "a dwelling of Men in an 'heroic age' " (letter #210) with subsequent details about Meduseld that make it crystal clear what he's picturing. Hrothgar would feel right at home. That's why Saruman's jibe that "What is the House of Eorl but a thatched barn where brigands drink in the reek, and their brats roll on the floor among the dogs?" was so pointed. Even the movie version of Meduseld was too fancy (it had private royal chambers, something Tolkien said the place should not have).

Besides which, with RoP it's meant to be the Second Age and the Shire and all its assorted anachronisms don't exist. That entire Age is rightly straight legendarium stuff, no messing around and no funny business.

[LagunaD2]

The Shire was invented for The Hobbit, a fairy-tale for children, as a sort of comfortably familiar starting-point to welcome his young readers before he hit them with the real substance of his legendarium.

Fascinating!

So you're saying that rather than being slavishly committed to an obsessive, inviolable a priori vision of How It Must Be, Professor Tolkien - in the very first peek into his legendarium - compromised to better accommodate his expected audience's background and expectations, for the sake of greater accessibility?

A wise example for those who would adapt his work to follow, wouldn't you agree?

[Pontin_Finnberry]

So far I'm really enjoying most of it. I keep having, "Oh!" moments where I see where their story ties into the lore.

I'm enjoying the series so far as well, there a lot little hints at lore even if there's changes, one of surprising things to me was the vision/dream of Numenor sinking in the latest Episode, If i remember right Tolkien himself had nightmare dreams of a city sinking, its where he got the whole numenor idea and have a character having the same thing in the series i thought was great.

[LagunaD2]

I'm enjoying the series so far as well, there a lot little hints at lore even if there's changes, one of surprising things to me was the vision/dream of Numenor sinking in the latest Episode, If i remember right Tolkien himself had nightmare dreams of a city sinking, its where he got the whole numenor idea and have a character having the same thing in the series i thought was great.

It was Plato who came up with the original Atlantis myth, which actually tracks the story of Numenor fairly closely.

If Tolkien borrowed the Atlantis myth, it wasn't the only instance. The ents marching on Isengard, and the prophesy about the Lord of the Nazgul's death, were inspired by plot elements in Shakespeare's Macbeth, with Tolkien wanting to improve upon the Bard's rather contrived fulfillment of the prophecies.

[Radhruin_EU]

Fascinating!

So you're saying that rather than being slavishly committed to an obsessive, inviolable a priori vision of How It Must Be, Professor Tolkien - in the very first peek into his legendarium - compromised to better accommodate his expected audience's background and expectations, for the sake of greater accessibility?

A wise example for those who would adapt his work to follow, wouldn't you agree?

Yes he did, when he was writing for children. The early chapters of what became FOTR were written in the same vein as The Hobbit, before he got writer's block until he had the bright idea that turned a would-be direct fairy-tale sequel to The Hobbit into the LOTR we have today. He admitted that he'd scarcely revised the early chapters after having that epiphany and that the style and tone of FOTR changes markedly with the scene at Weathertop. The bulk of LOTR (including the Appendices) doesn't compromise like that and the Sil doesn't do that at all, and some of it is very dark indeed. (And that was why Tolkien didn't want to enlarge on the Second Age himself, because it was such a dark age he didn't want to dwell on it).

So no, not such a wise example because you're not comparing like with like. Besides, RoP is so noddy that even the mainstream critics are starting to cotton on so that doesn't exactly come recommended.

[Radhruin_EU]

I'm enjoying the series so far as well, there a lot little hints at lore even if there's changes, one of surprising things to me was the vision/dream of Numenor sinking in the latest Episode, If i remember right Tolkien himself had nightmare dreams of a city sinking, its where he got the whole numenor idea and have a character having the same thing in the series i thought was great.

Only surprising that they'd tip their hand so soon and spoil the story for the average viewer.

The trouble with their whole approach to lore more generally is that they drop things in as Easter eggs and it's entirely superficial. Like there's literally nothing behind it, it's just name-dropping. Those little hints will be all you ever get, even when it's something that *is* in the Appendices because they just don't want to deal with it in any real way. Because they have no love for it whatsoever.

[Echoweaver]

It had been a thousand years or so (so about forty generations of Men!). That'd be a long time even to Elves. I can maybe imagine them maybe taking a look at those Men every now and again for a century or two after Morgoth's downfall, but after that it'd be "meh, they're just getting on with their lives, leave them to it".

Yeah, I'm not sure how much I buy the idea of elves patrolling the land of Morgoth's allies well into the Second Age. OTOH, I think they're compressing the Second Age a bit overall. Arondir said he'd been stationed there 75 years. We don't know how many duty cycles there have been, but I got the general impression that the time scale involved wasn't quite as extreme.

The forging of the Rings has to come first. I imagine the War of the Elves and Sauron will end up being just the destruction of Eregion (I just want to see the Orcs using Celebrimbor's corpse as a banner, lol) and they'll somehow combine the Numenorean intervention then with the much later one where Ar-Pharazon turns up and takes Sauron captive. That'd be in a later season: Pharazon also has to take power first, and he can use Miriel siding with the Elves as the perfect excuse. His reason for helping fight Sauron would be self-serving (it'd look good politically to have the Elves desperately needing Numenorean help, and thus appearing inferior) and he might have been led to believe that Sauron could give a very different perspective on the Valar and thus let him find out what's 'really' going on (conspiracy theory style). Of course that'll turn out to be a Really Bad Idea.

This timeline seems very plausible to me.

They've already made a mess of Numenor because the whole reason for their loss of faith was death and the wish for deathlessness (and the feeling that the Valar and the Elves had been lying to them all along), not being grumpy about "dang Elves takin' ahr jerbs".

FWIW, I didn't take that mob moment to be the story of human-elf estrangement. You're not likely to have a mob standing around chanting about their worries about growing old. Also, the anxiety seemed to be specifically about the trade guilds, and I find that plausible. It's hard to feel you can compete with beings who have thousands of years to practice and get better at their craft than you are.

I don't think they'll do the Annatar thing directly. It seems likely that Sauron is already in play in disguise (they're not being terribly subtle about it) and that'll play into that in a somewhat similar way (putting the idea in Celebrimbor's head is all they need, the rest can play out much the same once they get that far).

It occurs to me that Celebrimbor is probably consulting with Annatar before the start of the show. He arrives on the screen with an idea of what he wants to do, presumably the rings, and the inspiration for that entire path comes from Sauron.

The trouble with their whole approach to lore more generally is that they drop things in as Easter eggs and it's entirely superficial. Like there's literally nothing behind it, it's just name-dropping. Those little hints will be all you ever get, even when it's something that *is* in the Appendices because they just don't want to deal with it in any real way. Because they have no love for it whatsoever.

I think your analysis is awesome, and the whole, "It sucks!" "No it doesn't!" argument isn't a ton of fun. I think I appreciate where your criticism comes from, and I can respect it while having a different opinion.

But I do think it's worth pointing out that front-loading Tolkien's lore is REALLY daunting. What you see as superficial name-dropping, I see as doling out lore in small bits as it comes up in the story. It'll take quite a while of the story unfolding to get an idea of what the lore drops contribute.

[Trobon]

Well I’m enjoying it personally and am excited to see where they go. I feel like people try to guard the Lore too much in general. I know Tolkien guarded it and Christopher Tolkien guarded it, but I’m not either of them and don’t see any reason why I should pretend to be a steward of the world just because I enjoy the books Tolkien wrote. To me Tolkien set out to write a mythology and I never would expect a mythology to be adapted perfectly and never changed. I understand why others take issue with it, but it understanding It as a modern day myth makes it easier to enjoy things like RoP or Shadows of Mordor. They are no different than a movie like Troy or a game like Assassins Creed Odyssey using Greek myths.

I like the show because it allows me a window into the Second Age even if it is a specific interpretation of it. I am enjoying many of the characters and the storylines so far. I’m not a huge fan of Galadriel so far just because I find her boring, but I am hopeful in coming seasons that will change as she grows within the show (again, I know people say she should already be grown as a character and that’s true from a lore perspective, but I’m fine with adaptation).

The writing is hit and miss at times, but I lean towards liking it more than disliking it. Again, Galadriel bores me a little and some of the writing choices have been a big poor (Quartz Canyon for example) but then there are things that feel so heartfelt and genuine that I forget about those problems. Seeing Elrond talk about Earendil was amazing to me.

The show is far from perfect. But it feels enough like Middle Earth to me to really find a lot of enjoyment in it. At the end of the day I have liked the show more than the Hobbit films and I find those enjoyable enough that I’ve rewatched them even if they could have been so much better. So I will continue watching RoP and am looking forward to the next four Fridays.

[Radhruin_EU]

Yeah, I'm not sure how much I buy the idea of elves patrolling the land of Morgoth's allies well into the Second Age. OTOH, I think they're compressing the Second Age a bit overall. Arondir said he'd been stationed there 75 years. We don't know how many duty cycles there have been, but I got the general impression that the time scale involved wasn't quite as extreme.

They're being coy about it but Galadriel had supposedly been hunting Sauron for centuries (that was mentioned in Ep.1) and it needs to be long enough that it seemed like a long time even to Elves. The canonical timescale is roughly a thousand years from the War of Wrath to when Sauron re-emerged, so it's in a similar range. But that leaves the entirety of the rest of the Second Age (2300 years or so at minimum) being compressed into one mortal lifespan or less.

FWIW, I didn't take that mob moment to be the story of human-elf estrangement. You're not likely to have a mob standing around chanting about their worries about growing old. Also, the anxiety seemed to be specifically about the trade guilds, and I find that plausible. It's hard to feel you can compete with beings who have thousands of years to practice and get better at their craft than you are.

The Numenoreans were supposed to have become obsessed with death and trying to gain more life. (Having them freak out over immigrants instead seems like a clunky political allegory which doesn't work when there's only one Elf and she can't wait to leave). They didn't want Elves around because they'd be a constant reminder of their status (in their own eyes) as second-class citizens in the world. Giving the Numenoreans an inferiority complex based on that so they want to somehow prove a point to the Elves would work because later on, they can save the Elves from Sauron and be all "Not so high and mighty now, are we?" and start casually exploiting the riches of Middle-earth like they own the place.

It occurs to me that Celebrimbor is probably consulting with Annatar before the start of the show. He arrives on the screen with an idea of what he wants to do, presumably the rings, and the inspiration for that entire path comes from Sauron.

Possible, but in that case what's the urgency to build the forge by the coming Spring? And we haven't seen a character who could be in that role. (They like mysteries and hinting at things as a substitute for plot).

Plot twist: the real Celebrimbor is already dead and that *is* Sauron, that's why his hair's so carefully coiffured

But I do think it's worth pointing out that front-loading Tolkien's lore is REALLY daunting.

True enough, but it seems to me that they're actively shying away from it, being non-committal, changing things that didn't need to be changed, clashing with 'real' lore when they didn't need to - seemingly just because they can, like they want to make their mark on it no matter what.

Edit: it occurs to me that they're running scared of the mythological elements (death and the pursuit of deathlessness is a 'heavy' mythic theme) and so they may be looking for something straightforward and 'modern' to hang their version on. Oh dear.

[TesalionLortus]

What you see as superficial name-dropping, I see as doling out lore in small bits as it comes up in the story. It'll take quite a while of the story unfolding to get an idea of what the lore drops contribute.

It will take a while and it will turn out they contribute nothing (unless people attribute that meaning themselves, like they're already doing, but that's not something, that's just illusion). So far they're insignificant easter eggs and other call backs, like repurposing of PJ's lines. The Tolkien "core" in it is barebones mostly names and places, then they put their original additions/deviations (after careful inspection and trying to figure out their mental gymnastics and reasoning it usually turns out they were motivated by some modern messages), then they construct the rest around repurposed PJ's "call backs" or ripped off lines/sequences (for example: turning a Palantir into a prophetic stone with visions of the future was only done so Galadriel could say that line from PJ that she used in the mirror scene, that's it, that's the reason... funny she didn't use the stone to search for Sauron eh?), then they have a couple of scenes constructed specifically around modern allegories and waste screen time on that (they're taking our jobs! or Elendil being a bad patriarchal father to her daughter or anger match between two powerful females because The Message), oh and they also insert and give all exposition to these "mystery boxes" - what is the mark of Sauron? what was in the box? why mining mithril is dangerous? what is Celebrimbor planning? who is Sauron? who is the Stranger? where are the hobbits going? who is Adar? what was he talking about? what's the sword hilt? why Adar wants it? is Halbrand Sauron? what was Adar's message? oh, and then it turned out it was the basic "surrender or die" but he let Arondir go for something as insignificant as this and gave them time to prepare the defense so next episode they could resist him and be prepared... and that's because what's in those mystery boxes they don't care, most of the time. And we have too much of these anyway, in like 4 episodes LOL. Most of this doesn't contribute to good storytelling not to mention Tolkien tale they're supposedly adapting. Story, character development and decent narrative take a backseat here. Eh, they couldn't even decide whether Beleriand exists or not, but suddenly they mentioned it last episode (as easter egg). It's all a giant carrot dangling in front of you but if you look at it (or into the mystery box) you quickly notice it's rotten from the inside out. That's the writing of this show so far, 90% of it - the rest would be action scenes and orcs. Orcs are cool, at least, even though they're a bit too much like vampires or something.

[LagunaD2]

Yes he did, when he was writing for children. [...]

The nature of acommodation for accessibility might be determined by the fact that children were the expected audience in that specific case, but the principle is completely general.

It shows that Tolkien was not an absolutist, but that he attached value to bringing the audience along with him, even if it required flexibility in presentation.

[DavidmeetHal]

Well I’m enjoying it personally and am excited to see where they go. I feel like people try to guard the Lore too much in general. I know Tolkien guarded it and Christopher Tolkien guarded it, but I’m not either of them and don’t see any reason why I should pretend to be a steward of the world just because I enjoy the books Tolkien wrote. To me Tolkien set out to write a mythology and I never would expect a mythology to be adapted perfectly and never changed. I understand why others take issue with it, but it understanding It as a modern day myth makes it easier to enjoy things like RoP or Shadows of Mordor. They are no different than a movie like Troy or a game like Assassins Creed Odyssey using Greek myths.

I like the show because it allows me a window into the Second Age even if it is a specific interpretation of it. I am enjoying many of the characters and the storylines so far. I’m not a huge fan of Galadriel so far just because I find her boring, but I am hopeful in coming seasons that will change as she grows within the show (again, I know people say she should already be grown as a character and that’s true from a lore perspective, but I’m fine with adaptation).

The writing is hit and miss at times, but I lean towards liking it more than disliking it. Again, Galadriel bores me a little and some of the writing choices have been a big poor (Quartz Canyon for example) but then there are things that feel so heartfelt and genuine that I forget about those problems. Seeing Elrond talk about Earendil was amazing to me.

The show is far from perfect. But it feels enough like Middle Earth to me to really find a lot of enjoyment in it. At the end of the day I have liked the show more than the Hobbit films and I find those enjoyable enough that I’ve rewatched them even if they could have been so much better. So I will continue watching RoP and am looking forward to the next four Fridays.

It's possible that I would have liked it if the fan base was not beaten over the head with how proud the producers and actors were with skin color representation. Lenny Henry and Sophia Nomvete did not do the show any favors with their chest thumping. With the actors and producers bragging about skin color equality, it seemed like the show took a second seat to some sort of political agenda. It totally ruined it for me.

And no, I'm not going to go back to look up the threads to the websites and videos that I saw. You guys and gals can either believe me or not.

[LagunaD2]

It's possible that I would have liked it if the fan base was not beaten over the head with how proud the producers and actors were with skin color representation.

I didn't go looking for any of that, and therefore didn't encounter it.

My impression is that it was amplified many-fold by the very people who are up in arms about it. They are the only ones I've ever heard talking about it.

In effect, they beat themselves over the head with it.

Having just looked it up with a web search, Henry's interview was almost a year ago, on BBC Radio. And the people who are up in arms about it are *still* bringing it up out of the blue to complain about being "beaten over the head", 11 months later...

[DavidmeetHal]

*deleted my thread*

[Radhruin_EU]

The nature of acommodation for accessibility might be determined by the fact that children were the expected audience in that specific case, but the principle is completely general.

It shows that Tolkien was not an absolutist, but that he attached value to bringing the audience along with him, even if it required flexibility in presentation.

The serious stuff (most of LOTR, all of the Silmarillion) does *not* accommodate like that so you can't even demonstrate him doing that for the source material that's relevant to RoP, and you seem to have forgotten that we've all seen Tolkien adapted much better. It doesn't need to be given the generic fantasy treatment in order to be accessible to a mass audience. Your whole argument here is specious, not only because the mass audience is well used to seeing a 'Dark Ages' theme thanks to the place the Vikings hold in the popular imagination but because the LOTR movies themselves showed the common people of Rohan having that more basic lifestyle. Remember the houses of the commoners in Edoras, when Gandalf & Co. were on their way up the hill? Remember that scene with a village in the Westfold being attacked, and how the place looked? I notice things like that even if they pass you by.

The main concession that the movie of The Two Towers made to audience expectations of how the Rohirrim might live was to give the royals some private chambers and that was probably chiefly so that they could do that scene where Grima's really creepy to Eowyn in a private space. No complaints from me there, because that scene with its repurposed dialogue was great - that made it worthwhile. And otherwise - where's the hearth in Theoden's hall? In the middle of the floor. How does the smoke get out? Through a louvre in the roof (you can see it in the outside shots). Now that's what I call attention to detail. And the mass audience took all that in its stride.

Tolkien actually felt that he'd been condescending to his audience in The Hobbit and wished he could have rewritten the whole thing. But the Shire as it was (Victorian anachronisms and all) was legacy by then: people knew and loved it, he could hardly change it. So some of the quirks you also see early on in LOTR are just artefacts of the writing process, the volte-face from fairy-tale to epic fantasy and how The Hobbit could have done with being more serious in style itself, Tolkien having underestimated his audience as he later realised. So none of that is any reason to dumb down the story of the Rings of Power, the endless excuses you make for them notwithstanding.

[LagunaD2]

And otherwise - where's the hearth in Theoden's hall? In the middle of the floor. How does the smoke get out? Through a louvre in the roof (you can see it in the outside shots). Now that's what I call attention to detail. And the mass audience took all that in its stride.

But the interior of Meduseld - including the fire and the louver in the roof - is described in minute detail in the book. So, yes, I agree, it was well done, but in that case there was an explicit description and all they had to do was reproduce it, which film industry professionals with deep pockets are good at. In the first instance, the attention to detail was Tolkien's, not Jackson's.

But there is no analogous explicit description of the interior of an early Second Age hovel in soon-to-be-Mordor. We do see clearly that there is a huge gap in prosperity between the poor wretches of Middle-earth and the high-living, fat-and-sassy Numenoreans. That seems like the most important take-away.

Tolkien actually felt that he'd been condescending to his audience in The Hobbit and wished he could have rewritten the whole thing. But the Shire as it was (Victorian anachronisms and all) was legacy by then: people knew and loved it, he could hardly change it. So some of the quirks you also see early on in LOTR are just artefacts of the writing process, the volte-face from fairy-tale to epic fantasy and how The Hobbit could have done with being more serious in style itself, Tolkien having underestimated his audience as he later realised. So none of that is any reason to dumb down the story of the Rings of Power, the endless excuses you make for them notwithstanding.

But you see, there is more than one valid style possible. Tolkien (and his son) proved it. Yes, The Hobbit was (relatively) light and fanciful, Lord of the Rings quickly became dark and ominous, and much of Silmarillion reads like the Old Testament. Fairy-tales and epic fantasy can have differences in tone and emphasis, just like books and TV series can have differences in tone and emphasis.

As always, I'm not trying to suggest there's no room for improvement in RoP. The fireplaces just wouldn't be near the top of my list of places to start...

[Radhruin_EU]

I didn't go looking for any of that, and therefore didn't encounter it.

It stood out because they wanted it to stand out. Now, with characters like Miriel and Disa they haven't drawn overt attention to it (beyond the fact they're both royalty!) but with Arondir they have, with unsubtle allusions to real-world racism in that scene in the tavern, with his 'forbidden' relationship with Bronwyn, and how he's in the Southlands and the Orcs (who are now very pale indeed, I wonder why) put him on a literal chain-gang. Watch our hero as he leaps over the chains, while still chained himself, and symbolically turns the tables on his oppressors by exposing them to the light (you do realise that light symbolises truth, right?). This is not subtle. Now it may be that you simply don't 'do' symbolism or allusions to real-world issues and so don't see them, but please just stop trying to gaslight us by telling us that it's only there because we go looking for it, or that we're imagining it. In my case it leapt straight out at me because it really was and is that obvious and I am not, repeat *not*, in the habit of fishing for stuff like that.

Having just looked it up with a web search, Henry's interview was almost a year ago, on BBC Radio. And the people who are up in arms about it are *still* bringing it up out of the blue to complain about being "beaten over the head", 11 months later...

Lenny Henry is still banging on about representation and how 'these stories should look like the real world', much more recently than you've allowed for. Did you even look?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHnvGCW2C5Y

(See 0:42 onwards)

I'm glad to say that when Sophie Nomvete isn't rattling off talking points Amazon gave her, she's genuine and likeable.

[TesalionLortus]

It stood out because they wanted it to stand out. Now, with characters like Miriel and Disa they haven't drawn overt attention to it (beyond the fact they're both royalty!) but with Arondir they have, with unsubtle allusions to real-world racism in that scene in the tavern, with his 'forbidden' relationship with Bronwyn, and how he's in the Southlands and the Orcs (who are now very pale indeed, I wonder why) put him on a literal chain-gang. Watch our hero as he leaps over the chains, while still chained himself, and symbolically turns the tables on his oppressors by exposing them to the light (you do realise that light symbolises truth, right?). This is not subtle.

It's like they took a page from Disney which had a black actor break their "oppression" at the very start of the movie and then rebel against the village burning over-the-top Nazis by joining a reboot of the rebellion, though it made no sense whatsoever and why would anyone of these stormtroopers go along with it anyway and how was any of that logistically possible if they were all slaves lol. Allegory within allegory and symbolism all over it, but shallow plot and logic. I can't help but notice how similar it all is to Star Wars 7-9 in RoP. It's the exact same tropes, exact same agendas and perversions, exact same "loose reboot" philosophy that's thinly disguised as part of established continuity (here they wanted to score PJ continuity points, even though they don't have the rights to his trilogy), exact same shallow easter eggs, call backs, exact same plot devices (mark of sauron / death star dagger lol?) etc. Except RoP is even more disjointed which is an achievement, considered how 7-9 were all led by different people at the helm trying to fix what came before and failing... Oh, and you would think RoP and Amazon would know better... since even the SW franchise has distanced itself from everything narratively to do with 7-9!

[LagunaD2]

[LagunaD2]

Lenny Henry is still banging on about representation and how 'these stories should look like the real world', much more recently than you've allowed for. Did you even look?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHnvGCW2C5Y

(See 0:42 onwards)

So, he spent 20 seconds (20 whole seconds!) answering one question by saying how much it meant personally to him to be part of the project.

Angels and ministers of grace, defend us!

And the interview was with a niche YouTube channel with less than a thousand subscribers that (by its own description) covers black British creative talent.

The only reason any of us are seeing this obscure interview is that a bunch of zealots who couldn't tolerate that innocuous 20-second answer made it go viral among themselves...

[Radhruin_EU]

But the interior of Meduseld - including the fire and the louver in the roof - is described in minute detail in the book. So, yes, I agree, it was well done, but in that case there was an explicit description and all they had to do was reproduce it, which film industry professionals with deep pockets are good at. In the first instance, the attention to detail was Tolkien's, not Jackson's.

The point being that it's highly evocative that way (I wish Turbine had got that message before they came up with their version of Meduseld, which is all over the damn place) and so makes the world feel real and lived-in. It feels like a place that might once have existed. And that's why that worked, and why audiences responded to it.

But there is no analogous explicit description of the interior of an early Second Age hovel in soon-to-be-Mordor. We do see clearly that there is a huge gap in prosperity between the poor wretches of Middle-earth and the high-living, fat-and-sassy Numenoreans. That seems like the most important take-away.

And also a huge gap in implied period between the 'ancient' style they've given the Numenoreans (where they're heavily referencing classical antiquity, a bit too much if anything) and these pseudo-Renaissance generic fantasy peasants. The peasants could have come from any generic European-styled fantasy ever and that clashes. It wouldn't if they and their dwellings looked like they were from a deeper past too, so the point I'm making there is that it might have looked better if they'd consistently evoked an older world than we're used to because that's exactly what the Second Age is meant to be. Audiences respond to things which are evocative of something they're less used to, it makes them sit up and pay attention. Generic fantasy doesn't, it just washes over people because they've seen it so often.

The only thing that's really evocative about Tirharad is the ominous carvings that appear on some of the old stonework, hinting at a dark past. If they'd been more 'Dark Ages' themselves it would have played into the Elves' treatment of them, as if they were still being held way back because the Elves simply didn't trust them. Then there'd be a consistent contrast between the fancy Numenor (which had been built using knowledge learned from the Elves) and a very basic Southlands, where they'd lack the benefits of civilisation (still living in wooden long-houses, cooking their food in cauldrons over an open fire in the middle of the floor, etc.) rather than blunting that with creature comforts like chimneys, windows and candles everywhere.

But you see, there is more than one valid style possible. Tolkien (and his son) proved it. Yes, The Hobbit was (relatively) light and fanciful, Lord of the Rings quickly became dark and ominous, and much of Silmarillion reads like the Old Testament. Fairy-tales and epic fantasy can have differences in tone and emphasis, just like books and TV series can have differences in tone and emphasis.

The story of the Rings of Power is heavily mythological and very dark and ominous so it should seem much like the darker parts of LOTR. I can see why they felt the need for the Harfoots for some levity (although they spoiled that by turning them into a 'death cult') or having the Dwarves be the light relief again, but there they're basically copying what PJ did with the LOTR movies, and making callbacks to LOTR generally. The trouble is twofold, the world lacks a consistent, coherent feel (it hops about) - like one minute everyone's peering at scrolls, the next Lenny Henry's character has books - and the writing seldom gets the tone right - the writers just aren't good at sounding archaic (it comes across as stilted) and you hear words like 'okay' being used that should have been taken out in the first read-through. In the LOTR movies PJ had a very clear and consistent sense of direction and that came shining through, here it's muddled. And most particularly, LOTR had some anachronisms for reasons external to its own story (the Shire being legacy from The Hobbit, warts and all), but the story of the Rings of Power doesn't and they shouldn't stick anachronisms in just to make it feel more like LOTR.

[Radhruin_EU]

So, he spent 20 seconds (20 whole seconds!) answering one question by saying how much it meant personally to him to be part of the project.

Angels and ministers of grace, defend us!

And the interview was with a niche YouTube channel with less than a thousand subscribers that (by its own description) covers black British creative talent.

The only reason any of us are seeing this obscure interview is that a bunch of zealots who couldn't tolerate that innocuous 20-second answer made it go viral among themselves...

Nice bluster. Regardless, you plainly hadn't bothered to look and he reiterates that same problematic point - supposedly not being able to 'be' in a world if he can't see himself represented in it - which he'd previously put as "you can't be what you can't see" and which he's been using in one form or another since at least 2017, and it doesn't benefit from repetition. I've said it before and I'll say it again, if anyone says they can't associate with characters who don't look like them then that says more about them than anything else, because it implies that the inside of their head is a far from inclusive space.

[wispsong]

I didn't go looking for any of that, and therefore didn't encounter it.

My impression is that it was amplified many-fold by the very people who are up in arms about it. They are the only ones I've ever heard talking about it.

In effect, they beat themselves over the head with it.

Having just looked it up with a web search, Henry's interview was almost a year ago, on BBC Radio. And the people who are up in arms about it are *still* bringing it up out of the blue to complain about being "beaten over the head", 11 months later...

They did, my daughter who watched every interview concerning the show, told me about it and was very upset. Doesn't matter how long ago it was, it's not like they changed their opinion.
But these interviews have nothing to do with the mess the show is imo. It's all over the place. There is not one character I feel connected to. Scenes look very staged. And then there is Galadriel ...