Where do we go from here?

[b4jet9597]

I’d love to get a look on your math on that.

Just being able to run through keeps and swim through water at nearly mount speed is huge. I don't see how this is so hard for you to understand. Your only argument is that you don't have to interrupt to knock out of march. Which is annoying I'll admit.

[Daec]

Just being able to run through keeps and swim through water at nearly mount speed is huge. I don't see how this is so hard for you to understand. Your only argument is that you don't have to interrupt to knock out of march. Which is annoying I'll admit.

Yeah its weird, half the creep classes can now move at a potential 65% run speed OOC and can teleport to numerous locations across the map every 10 minutes, its hard to see a downside here.

[Neinda]

Yeah its weird, half the creep classes can now move at a potential 65% run speed OOC and can teleport to numerous locations across the map every 10 minutes, its hard to see a downside here.

But all of the freeps have horses and can port out to anywhere and end up back at GV in seconds and with a hunter, no cool down to the porting out. Maps are bread and butter for the creeps.

Maybe make it impossible for freeps to port out of the Moors and come back via South Bree stable? Put a CD on returning to the Moors after leaving? Fair is fair. Treat the freeps and creeps alike when it comes to movement around the map.

[Daec]

But all of the freeps have horses and can port out to anywhere and end up back at GV in seconds and with a hunter, no cool down to the porting out. Maps are bread and butter for the creeps.

Maybe make it impossible for freeps to port out of the Moors and come back via South Bree stable? Put a CD on returning to the Moors after leaving? Fair is fair. Treat the freeps and creeps alike when it comes to movement around the map.

Creeps have a 1m grams map that seems in fact better than freeps ability to return to GV as it doesn't rely on a hunter to be in group with you, what is your primary concern here?

[Kate00]

Creeps have a 1m grams map that seems in fact better than freeps ability to return to GV as it doesn't rely on a hunter to be in group with you, what is your primary concern here?

So no math? I can get knocked out of March from what, 55m? My defiler can’t dismount horses so freeps can just ride off into the sunset and you want me to rely on a warleader for speed and a ba for an interrupt? How is this logical to you?

[Daec]

So no math? I can get knocked out of March from what, 55m? My defiler can’t dismount horses so freeps can just ride off into the sunset and you want me to rely on a warleader for speed and a ba for an interrupt? How is this logical to you?

As previously indicated i am in support of defilers getting an interrupt. Still, 55% potential speed in addition to 10m maps is pretty great for mobility on a defiler, would easily trade my mount on freep for that.

[Kate00]

As previously indicated i am in support of defilers getting an interrupt. Still, 55% potential speed in addition to 10m maps is pretty great for mobility on a defiler, would easily trade my mount on freep for that.

horse speed does not equal potential 55% unless my math is wrong.

It’s a purposeful nerf to fix a non existent problem. I frankly don’t see discussing it anymore since freeps have assured creepside every day, multiple times a day, the nerf is coming whether the majority want it or not.

[Ameranth]

Creeps grouped with a WL can now get effectively get 65% run speed, and solo creeps 55% including in water and through keeps, plus a 10m teleport to numerous locations on the map. I'm at a bit of a loss as to how people are saying mounts are more effective.

So by everyone in the raid using store buffs and being grouped with a specific support class (which requires devoting 1/6 of the entire raid to that sub-par support class), creeps can move almost as fast as every freep can without buffs of any kind. However the creeps can get the same effect as being dismounted, but it doesn't require a crit or an interrupt and will affect all of them at once. I don't think anyone would consider it in any way fair if creeps had a skill to dismount every freep in a 20m radius from 50m+ away.

The vulnerability of creeps in overland travel has been thoroughly covered. The main purpose of the maps was to provide a safe way to fixed locations. I'd much rather keep the current March values and map system.


Also I'm unclear how either of those situations you mentioned matter.

For creeps, moving through water is at a fraction of running speed just like on freepside. I've never measured it but my impression is it's about 1/2 normal speed, so let's go with that for now. I also *think* creeps keep their run bonus, but again that's just an impression and hasn't been tested. Using those assumptions freeps swim at 50%, not counting all the possible run speed buffs that apply once dismounted which would bring them to ~60% or much more. Creeps used to be ~60% and will now swim at ~75%. That's assuming both sides aren't in combat, otherwise creeps and most freeps are also at 50%, while some freeps will still move much faster. More importantly, every river crossing but one has bridges and/or fords so in general no swimming is even required. For the tiny fraction of time in the moors spent crossing the river just north of Hoarhallow, being able to do it marginally faster when nobody else is around is hardly a huge advantage.

Just as a bit of trivia; March/Mobilize can't be turned on while swimming, so creeps need to be OOC before going in the water.


I'm not sure why you mention moving through keeps. This would only apply while running up a friendly keep to the quest NPC's in Lug/TR/OR/DG, which is hardly a critical issue nor a tactical advantage for either side since it occurs out of combat. It's still irritating though, so since we lost back doors it would be nice to move the Lug/TR quest givers for both sides to the ground floor, possibly at the base of the stairs.

[LabadalofDorlomin]

I think Orion should check as to why the run speeds for Creeps were reduced in the first place.

Then I go back to my original point of the fact that the moors is too large and it isn't like 2008,9,10,11 again... there are not literally Freeps on every corner waiting for action.

I personally don't think I would be bothered, as much as I love playing Creep, to spend my precious play time - running around the map looking for any action.

I have seen the differences on both sides as I have played both sides and it is fact (in my mind) that Freeps use Creep maps just as much as Creeps do. Freeps need the creeps to be able to map in to where they are in order to actually get some action.

In short - Freeps need Creeps to be able to map around the moors and all you are doing by increasing all CDs is falsely trying to extend gameplay by making it longer for any action to occur.

[ithinkiamserious]

They are the ones choosing to fight at map ins.

Where do you expect players to fight that creeps can't reach quickly with maps?

have been fine for what 15 years now

Why doesn't this logic apply to your plea for defiler interrupts?

[TearMaker]

Has this nonsense been reversed yet? I worked for my maps on all Creeps in their original times and do not wish to have to run aimlessly half arsed around the map looking for fights at a slightly extended speed and have to run with WL to increase it still further.

I did have a glimmer of hope that we might get some good changes but knew full well that DEVS cannot firstly help but meddle where it isn't needed and they also have always been led by what Freeps want. I mean I used to understand it when VIP was required for Freep and we all came to expect changes to always fall on that side but now there is no excuse.

[ithinkiamserious]

do not wish to have to run aimlessly half arsed around the map looking for fights

Freeps have been doing this since the beginning. Instanced PvMP would be a nice option for those players on both sides who go to the moors for pvp and not simply to rank.

[TearMaker]

Freeps have been doing this since the beginning. Instanced PvMP would be a nice option for those players on both sides who go to the moors for pvp and not simply to rank.

The difference is that Freeps use the Creeps maps as much to their benefit as the Creeps do. If you don't know what that means then you obviously don't use Pvmp much.

Also, Pvmp is already instanced. You cannot run to and from it to the PVE map. Do you mean having something like capture the flag in and copied area of the moors? or an Arena? This has been asked for a while and with the new talk of new skirmishes... it would be nice to think that they may do what they intended originally and create a way of making skirmishes PVP.

By the way, I have never been averse to Freeps having maps and losing their mounts.

[Setenzia]

After playing LoTRO for 15+ years decided to go into the moors for a look see.

Freepside:
Statistics for T0-T3 gear is terrible (being polite).
Since PVP gear will be wearable/usable in PVE suggest the addition of Audacity to Coffers of Adventurer's Armour/Jewelry/Weapon(?) Purple and Teal gear; +16 Purple and +18-20 for Teal full sets as a somewhat economical way to get fresh "meat" into the moors with reasonable T1/T1.75 gear without a significant hit on character class statistics. This will give a low ranking freep decent audacity without taking a massive statistic hit and have a reasonable chance to survive in moors until rank increase and better audacity gear (T4/T4U).

Creepside:
Embers as a reward for opening Adventurer Steel-Bound Lootbox is worthless to a creep. 500-1000 Commendations are the "Rare" reward item for opening Adventurer Steel-Bound Lootbox along with the standard 250-2000 embers and other useful misc items. Suggest flip-flopping ember/commendation reward in the moors for both creep and freep. Suggest increasing the regularity of commendation rewards over ember rewards for opening Lootboxes that are "obtained in" and "opened in" the moors to 250-2000(ish) commendations regularly with 500-1000 ember reward as rare item.

Infamy/Reknown:
I am on a low PvMP population server (Landroval PvMP action is ... sporadic) and it would take me approximately 6-8 years doing moors pve dailies (avg ~2000 infamy/play day) for me to level a new creep or freep in the moors from R1 to R15. 100% Infamy/Reknown accelerator from Lotro store only works PVP - not questing like PVE XP accelerators work. An Infamy/Reknown accelerator that works in PVP and PVE in the moors would be great as would a Valar equivalent for Rank increase in the moors.

I am having a blast in the moors with exception of the Infamy/Reknown and Commendation grind - which makes the PVE ember grind look like a walk in the park in comparrison.

I am looking forward to forthcoming updates (creepside missions have a lot of potential) to the moors with the exception of the creep MAP CD changes

[Treliarhs]

Any plans for for more ranks?( add 5 more) , most people by now are already high ranked . Or a new system and removing ranks? New Titles , Deeds? ettens legendary weapons? Any leaderboards for kills , missions , ratings etc etc any idea that can make this little more interesting ?

[SSG_Orion]

Any plans for for more ranks?( add 5 more) , most people by now are already high ranked . Or a new system and removing ranks? New Titles , Deeds? ettens legendary weapons? Any leaderboards for kills , missions , ratings etc etc any idea that can make this little more interesting ?

There are no pans to add more ranks. The initial fifteen were slated to last about 10 years of pretty intensive play - yes, over time players found ways to obviate or push through that structure much faster - this does not change our desire to leave the rank system at 15 for the foreseeable future.

When we add something new it will not remove or replace the existing rank system. Rather, it will be a new additional system standing alongside what already exists. This new system is already functionally sketched out with and does include titles, deeds, corruptions, and more.

The matter of legendary items in the Eteenmoors is difficult to navigate and thread correctly. As it stands, some traceries are simply overpowered and some are clearly underwhelming. Our goal is to carefully construct gear, moving forward, that is better suited for play in the Ettenmoors. This may or may not include a way to level, enhance, or improve your LI in the Ettenmoors.

Leaderbiards existed at the outset of the Ettenmoors and Monster Play along with a start ranking system attached to the portrait UI. These two systems ended up being some of the most detrimental and toxic aspects of the Ettenmoors at its inception. I do not believe that these will return.

I am hoping, soon after the New Year, to provide a roadmap of the nest 1-2 years of MP development.

[Strider5548]

The matter of legendary items in the Eteenmoors is difficult to navigate and thread correctly. As it stands, some traceries are simply overpowered and some are clearly underwhelming. Our goal is to carefully construct gear, moving forward, that is better suited for play in the Ettenmoors. This may or may not include a way to level, enhance, or improve your LI in the Ettenmoors.

I know it's too early to say definitively, but is your head leaning more towards a revamp of the existing LI system, or a new PvMP LI system altogether? It sounds like at least one of these things is in the cards.

Leaderbiards existed at the outset of the Ettenmoors and Monster Play along with a start ranking system attached to the portrait UI. These two systems ended up being some of the most detrimental and toxic aspects of the Ettenmoors at its inception. I do not believe that these will return.

Ah yes I remember star huggers, nothing was more satisfying than getting a KB on a 5 star burg

[SSG_Orion]

I know it's too early to say definitively, but is your head leaning more towards a revamp of the existing LI system, or a new PvMP LI system altogether? It sounds like at least one of these things is in the cards.

I want to be clear. I did not say revamp or new PvMP LI system. We're discussing ways that we can integrate better, that is all.

[Strider5548]

I want to be clear. I did not say revamp or new PvMP LI system. We're discussing ways that we can integrate better, that is all.

Maybe revamp was too strong a word, it just seemed from your post that there might be changes to LI's to support better balance in the moors, and I was curious to know how that will manifest through the 1-2 year plan. Apologies for the confusion.

[istvana]

"there might be changes to LI's to support better balance in the moors"

May this never happen. Whatever is or is not needed in the Moors should not affect the basic pve game. Unless a change affected nothing at all other than pvmp of course.

[SSG_Orion]

"there might be changes to LI's to support better balance in the moors"

May this never happen. Whatever is or is not needed in the Moors should not affect the basic pve game. Unless a change affected nothing at all other than pvmp of course.

This would not be a change to LIs for PvE, rather the inclusion of traceries that are more suited or directed at play in the Ettenmoors.

[istvana]

Thanks - PvMP geared traceries would be good if needed by freeps - that would be a balance issue, of course.

[Kate00]

@ Orion

Is there any plans to stop freeps from using summon horns to escape death in the moors or is this working as intended?

[Dranak123]

@ Orion

Is there any plans to stop freeps from using summon horns to escape death in the moors or is this working as intended?

What an interesting paradox this raises. Whilst any side can call for any fortunate 'local map' support in OOC to help vaporise your chosen foe that doesnt have the decency to die on the altar of your PvMP advancement , it is only the Creeps who may summon each other from literally anywhere on the map in mere seconds to your general vacinity. How galling it must be therefore that only Freeps have the ability to call out to OOC ' Im a Gonna Get Me Out of Here' and be swiftly invited to group and teleported to safety .
There are abuses of fairness , and just pure bad luck (wrong place wrong time ) , on both sides . But the answer to this conundrum is that whichever side you are on you cannot both 'have your cake and eat it' as the saying goes. If the summons go , so do the maps ! Are the maps working as intended too ?

[Kate00]

What an interesting paradox this raises. Whilst any side can call for any fortunate 'local map' support in OOC to help vaporise your chosen foe that doesnt have the decency to die on the altar of your PvMP advancement , it is only the Creeps who may summon each other from literally anywhere on the map in mere seconds to your general vacinity. How galling it must be therefore that only Freeps have the ability to call out to OOC ' Im a Gonna Get Me Out of Here' and be swiftly invited to group and teleported to safety .
There are abuses of fairness , and just pure bad luck (wrong place wrong time ) , on both sides . But the answer to this conundrum is that whichever side you are on you cannot both 'have your cake and eat it' as the saying goes. If the summons go , so do the maps ! Are the maps working as intended too ?

you can’t be serious. Comparing maps to summon horns? You are trolling right? Have to be.