Where do we go from here?

[Minor7b5]

Where doe we go from here? Nowhere! It's a bad joke and an insult for every player on Creepside.
The level of incompetence is unprecedented.
You change things no one has perceived as a core problem for 15 years. You are not able to solve the delving problem a thrid time in a row, you cannot correct the WL Skill purge.....the list goes on. Balance? What balance as long as you can sell ridiculously stupid looking OP classes like bears?
It's a disgrace and a spit in the face of your customers!

[jimmies]

had time to fix a beorning skill a brawler skill and two minstrel skills but not enough time to fix the warleader mobilise skill,if this were a captain slowing his group to 20% movement it would have been fixed this patch. done with this garbage

[TearMaker]

had time to fix a beorning skill a brawler skill and two minstrel skills but not enough time to fix the warleader mobilise skill,if this were a captain slowing his group to 20% movement it would have been fixed this patch. done with this garbage

I would presume that they are employing their age old tactic of now ignoring the issue and hoping we stop complaining about it. Funny how memory can cloud reasoning when this has never worked before.

I have just voted with my login finger and will not log into Etten again until the maps are restored. If that is never, then so be it. I have had much fun over the years but none of them have been in the last 10 years and so there is not really much of a loss.

It was just a shame that they once again miss the opportunity to show fairness and possibly coax those back who left over all the blatant allowed cheating for the last 10 years.

[UselessSmurf]

The funny thing is this. I have been asking for OC/EC to be returned since they made the change all those years ago BUT I refuse to play and enjoy their return whilst the MAPS cooldowns are being blatantly butchered for no good reason.

Saying that this is to increase gameplay is not correct. So, I hope those that aren't making a stand are enjoying the camps return? I guess not with all the other myriad of disappointment in this update !!

I play on a small server, and we have a bit of action at OC, its ok when the Lugs rez circle is red, it lets creeps come right back to the action. As freeps have a billion rezzes. But EC never has action around it.

And truth be told, the action has died off considerably, and its hard to get anything going. Some have even left to Evernight...those poor souls lol.

[Neinda]

I would presume that they are employing their age old tactic of now ignoring the issue and hoping we stop complaining about it. Funny how memory can cloud reasoning when this has never worked before.

But it does work LOL. It works because they use the silence and ignore it mode while we complain. Next thing you know they do something even worse so we move on to a new topic. Rinse and repeat. I suspect what we see today is the best it will ever be in LOTRO again as there will be more nerfs, more broken stuff (on purpose most times) ignored and so on.

[OnnMacMahal]

I would presume that they are employing their age old tactic of now ignoring the issue and hoping we stop complaining about it.

We've already got a pending fix in for Mobilise which you will see soon.

. . . the action has died off considerably . . .

Keep in mind new PvE content was recently released for freeps, so some moors-regular freeps will be spending more time doing that content when they might otherwise be in the Ettenmoors.

[Canarne]

Why nerfed speed to 32% back?
Why we cant interact with quest NPC?
Cant collect stuff on ground?
What the hell lol

[OnnMacMahal]

Why nerfed speed to 32% back?
Why we cant interact with quest NPC?
Cant collect stuff on ground?
What the hell lol

For visibility, I just posted this in the other thread:


The skill tooltip says 32% (this is a bug) but the actual movement speed is 65%. This is faster than 'normal' 62% freep horses, and slower than 'better' 68% freep horses.
The 65% movement speed will not stack with other movement speed bonuses.

It requires you to stand still for a .75s induction, significantly shorter than freep mount inductions.

The skill will be broken by swimming, entering keeps, or being interrupted by an enemy, but will not be broken by entering combat.

You cannot use skills while Marching. Using an immediate skill will cancel March (using the immediate skill) but you can also queue a skill and then click March to turn it off, immediately firing the queued skill.

At the moment, you can't interact with NPCs or objects while Marching. This will be fixed soon.

[MuddledMage]

Perhaps you can "fix" March soon. Rather than watch the game lurch from change to change that seem to be misguided and full of self-designed bugs I'd rather spend my time looking for a new pastime.

And in the words of a famous leader.."You break i, you pay for it."

[Baradorion]

For visibility, I just posted this in the other thread:


The skill tooltip says 32% (this is a bug) but the actual movement speed is 65%. This is faster than 'normal' 62% freep horses, and slower than 'better' 68% freep horses.
The 65% movement speed will not stack with other movement speed bonuses.

It requires you to stand still for a .75s induction, significantly shorter than freep mount inductions.

The skill will be broken by swimming, entering keeps, or being interrupted by an enemy, but will not be broken by entering combat.

You cannot use skills while Marching. Using an immediate skill will cancel March (using the immediate skill) but you can also queue a skill and then click March to turn it off, immediately firing the queued skill.

At the moment, you can't interact with NPCs or objects while Marching. This will be fixed soon.

Although the extra run speed for creeps is appreciated this has gone from bad to worse,

I can't use any skills in march so what's the point? I main a reaver and quite often i'm chasing down a freep but now I have to disable march to activate charge to hopefully catch up to rely on a 50% chance of a stun with blade toss?

Instead of focusing on run buffs you should really be altering the maps back to how they was, or even give them a lower cooldown

All the people who mainly focus on creepside are just waiting for the next update to see what goes wrong next.

[Daec]

Although the extra run speed for creeps is appreciated this has gone from bad to worse,

I can't use any skills in march so what's the point? I main a reaver and quite often i'm chasing down a freep but now I have to disable march to activate charge to hopefully catch up to rely on a 50% chance of a stun with blade toss?

Instead of focusing on run buffs you should really be altering the maps back to how they was, or even give them a lower cooldown

All the people who mainly focus on creepside are just waiting for the next update to see what goes wrong next.

You should be able to queue up blade toss directly from march and be able to fire it immediately upon turning march off same with charge (although you only get one shot at this) or you can use gut punch directly from march if you're close enough.

[Baradorion]

You should be able to queue up blade toss directly from march and be able to fire it immediately upon turning march off same with charge (although you only get one shot at this) or you can use gut punch directly from march if you're close enough.

There's the argument, "If" you're close enough, if not you have to rely on everything else, being able to use a skill directly from March should still be a thing.

[KurysFlame]

You should be able to queue up blade toss directly from march and be able to fire it immediately upon turning march off same with charge (although you only get one shot at this) or you can use gut punch directly from march if you're close enough.

I would have thought:

queue charge > deactivate march > upper hand > blade toss.

Although, yeah. The main point, that this isn't a bad change, stands. It's basically on par with freeps and it's not that big a difference in ability to catch horses.

There's the argument, "If" you're close enough, if not you have to rely on everything else, being able to use a skill directly from March should still be a thing.

It's almost the same. You just have to queue it after march. And you always have to be close enough. If you aren't, then the other player should be able to run away. ("Close enough" changing based off what tools your class has.)

[Ameranth]

This is faster than 'normal' 62% freep horses, and slower than 'better' 68% freep horses.
The 65% movement speed will not stack with other movement speed bonuses.

There's nobody at 140 who doesn't have a 68% horse, so if you're trying to make everything equal then you should just give creeps 68% March. I'd still rather have maps, because symmetric movement leads to stalemates.

The skill will be broken by swimming, entering keeps, or being interrupted by an enemy, but will not be broken by entering combat.

Since nobody can move quickly inside a keep and we lost back doors, how about making life easier for both sides and moving the quest NPCs in TR/Lug to the ground floor?

You cannot use skills while Marching. Using an immediate skill will cancel March (using the immediate skill) but you can also queue a skill and then click March to turn it off, immediately firing the queued skill.

Some freep skills can still be used while mounted, like Hunter tracks. Will Wargs be able to track while Marching?

For that matter, since the goal seems to be to make the sides identical will Wargs get a track with the same range as Hunters? Currently their track area is only 40% of a Hunter's, so if a Burglar HIPS then just at normal run speed they'll be out of range before the Warg can get OOC to track them. Even with another Warg sitting out of the fight to track as soon as the 10s HIPS immunity is up the target will be over 70m away which is almost out of track range.

[CarenC]

I personally see an issue when aligning creeps speed to match the freeps. Why not also looks at the following:

1. Cappys and LMs can summon pets in combat, let the spiders do the same with the same induction time of freeps;
2. Disable the freep flop skills in the Moors for Hobbits and minstrels (creeps have no skill compared to that);
3. Reduce the hunter trap damage in moors since the BA's snare damage has been nerfed several times;
4. Disable the range extension tracery on freeps or increase the range extension on creeps to match freeps.

I can go on and on abt the inequities of the moors when in comes to comparing freeps and creeps but as creeps we have always overcome and adjusted to the differences, but what SSG has done this time is just, again I will use the same word, ABSURD. By increasing the map CDs you have reduced the ability to return to a fight especially if the creep gets ported all the way back to Grams. Oh but we increased the March skill you saw, by the time a creep would run all the way back to the fight it would be over. There is no reason for the MAPs to have all the same CD. If you want to give the Creeps a movement skill that is aligned to the freeps horses, then why not just give us a horse.

[Neinda]

There is absolutely no harm in testing these changes before more broken things are fixed that break something else that needs to be fixed and leaves people generally annoyed. Please test this stuff and get feedback before throwing it out there on live servers. The creep changes and fixes to the fixes and the new bugs that need yet more fixes are starting to feel like the old Abbott and Costello routine, "Who's on first?". Testing really can save time in most cases. Releasing a fully functional change would make the player base a bit less annoyed.

The map and creep movement systems are set in stone. Please make sure it works before you make yet more adjustments. Unpopular changes become that much more unpopular when they break other stuff in the process of being implemented.

[hanswurst13]

made a new char on arkenstone
first encouter with freeps
near gtr map spawn full freep raid nearly 24 players dismounted to kill lv 0 freep <<<<<<

tryed to go from tr gy to tr to finish the starter quest
coundt get there 3-6 burgs ganked me 24x
i currently have 37 deaths and 2 kills
still didnt enter TR

lvl 0 creep

well done "game dev" if this is your profession

your current game is
freeps do gv zerg with 99x Hunters that siply abuse their range also all the red minstrels who dont heal ( lol ) great desingn
or freeps hide near spawns or quest areas and farm lv0 creeps and feel good about it ... bad game design and bad incentive.
creeps can only form mass zergs since small grps get anihilated, espacially low ranked, its not even funny
most creep quest are useless since maps are useless, no point in doing any.
its better to join a zerg and farm the once who get stunned in the back, while running back to grams
tr-coockie rock- gv
you have designed this

you have designed this game that way

give all creeps mounts or remove freeps mounts and give them the same bad marsh

remove all npcs, all , its a pvp area ?!
give all players and classes ( clone them , rename skills) same stats, the better one has to win

and since oyu like sooo much pve and cant live without it , even in the pvp part of the game make a raid where the entrys are across the map and give good drops so freeps are forced to cross the map to enter that raid and pimp their euqipmet

give good raid for creeps maybe make them boss in a freep raid or let us enter the max lvl areas of the game to fight the daily quest and remove etten at all....

[Atomos]

Something minor, but would it be possible to please change the location the game displays for your character on other player's friends list while in the Ettenmoors (and The Sundering of Osgilliath) to show only the word Ettenmoors (or The Sundering of Osgilliath), and not those map's sub-locations?

Currently, if you are not in anonymous mode, I think it displays the sub-location of the Ettenmoors you are in like Coldfells, Hoardale, Steps of Gram, The Delving of Frór etc.

Using this information, players with spy characters on the same team but who are actually playing on the other side, can get a rough idea of where you (and your group) currently are on the map, if you are not in anonymous mode.

To avoid this, I have to turn anonymous on while playing PvMP, which means friends outside of kin/tribe can't see if I'm online.

So it would be more convenient and better if you could please change the location displayed to not show sub-locations of Ettenmoors (and The Sundering of Osgilliath).

[subadar]

you guys keep beating this long dead horse, LOTRO is simply not a PVP game.

i enjoy it, i'd hate to see it die. but these half hearted attempts at "balance" are well intentioned if a bit misguided.

you simply cant have a valid pvp game when theres an obvious built in bias to freeps, its been there since day 1.

the changes they have implemented are the best things to happen to creeps for a Loooooooong time. so i say Good Job.

The problem is that SSG/Orion keep dangling that "balance" carrot for creeps but the game is designed around, and the whole point of it is to glorify freepside.

They will always have the upper hand in ways that are not seen by the oblivious button mashing ez mode freeps but glaringly obvious to creeps.

but a well played group of creeps is a pretty tough nut to crack atm, so y'all should be having fun with it

creeps are the try hard side, we have to be better at it and can still lose, if you have never seen that welcome to LOTRO, get used to it.

[Breguilas]

Not only is that the title of the great ending to the musical episode of Buffy: The Vampire Slayer's Once More with Feeling, it's also a question that has been asked here, on Bullroarer and other locations that I frequent during my work and play hours.

First, a General Thank You

Let me start by saying that I am overwhelmed with the response that we have seen with the latest rounds of Bullroarer. Incredibly detailed feedback from players new and long-toothed providing clear, concise, and often unwelcome and sometimes welcome criticism, concern, and advise on how to modify their favorite classes. While not every post was positive, neither were there a large number of negative responses. This means that there is healthy discussion, room for more improvement and engagement. While we have not been able to address everything, we have addressed some of the more egregious issues pointed out and will continue to push in directions that we hope will inspire the more positive discussions and changes that most of you want to see.

I mentioned when i returned that I wanted to begin a more open dialogue and communicate as best I could with the changes that are being discussed and slated for release in the future development of the game. To that end, I want to start using a structured post to explain upcoming changes. Additionally, I have talked with Cordovan and Severlin about being more "present" on the forums and in the community. Both have agreed and with the last stream, we've decided that I'll be sprucing up my stream a little bit and formalizing it into at least a monthly Q&A. Additionally, I want to run a stream - where I play the game alongside all of you. Details of that stream will be forthcoming as there are some details that need to be worked out. Now for the reason that most of you are reading this post.

The road goes ever on...

With Bullroarer testing winding down it's time to start looking toward the future and discussing what happens next.

As you all likely know, Before the Shadow is incoming and while the final release date has not been announced it will be upon us before we know it. While the majority of the release focuses on the PvE movements, motiviations, and advancement of story and your role in Middle-earth, there are some free changes coming on the Monster Play side that are rather - large. As I stated in my most recent stream, we are taking a phased approach to the changes in the Ettenmoors. This was the choice I made when I started as I knew I need to meet certain criteria along the way in order to keep the system out of the proverbial moth ball closet. So far, so good. Engagement seems to be up and we are certainly seeing a lot more banter with regards to monster play. This is great, it means that we get to move forward with more changes.

We all know that there are class tweaks, alterations, and outright changes that are coming with the imminent update that were recently tested on Bullroarer. While there might be minor tweaks to some of the skills and effects, the majority of those changes are now fixed in limestone. Yeah, I said limestone. None of these changes are definitely permanent and so we will assess and review the performance of the changes in the Ettenmoors and make further tweaks accordingly. Those are the knowns. You are not here for the knowns. You want to get a better understanding of the unknowns. And so...

In Development

This section discusses changes that are already committed to be changes in an upcoming release and will, at the very least, see testing on Bullroarer.

Changes to Control Locations in the Ettenmoors

All locations (Tirith Rhaw, Lugazag, Tol Ascarnen, The Isendeep Mine, and the Grimwood Lumber Camp) will see a reduced number of defending NPCs. This change is an effort to reduce performance issues in the Ettenmoors due to a large number of AI being present in the space. The standard reduction of present forces reduces the number of active defenders from ~60 to 16.

All locations while controlled by monster players or free players now have defenders with higher statistics to make the capture of the location closer to the original intent of the control points. These statistics include primarily an enhancment to morale, and mitigations, more than damage.

Outpost locations also see a decrease in the number of defenders and an increase in the statistics of those defenders for all three controlling factions. Additionally, the control of the outposts is no longer tied to access to the Delving of Frór.

The Delving of Frór is closed for renovation, players and monster players will not be able to access the Ettendeep until revisions are complete.

Battlefield Changes

Forward camps, housing the entrances to the Delving of Frór are abandoned. The gateways into the Ettendeep are dormant.

The Elf Camp on the eastern side of the bridges of Tol Ascarnen is rebuilt. The flag capture for the bridges is returned.

The Orc Camp on the western side of the bridges of Tol Ascarnen is rebuilt. The flag capture for the bridges is returned.

Monster Player Changes

Emissaries from Angmar, more specifically Carn Dûm, and Isengard have arrived in Gramsfoot. The emissaries offer an opportunity to modify your monster player by providing you a taste of what it means to ally with their clan. There will be seven clans to choose from, but you can benefit from only one of the clan blessings at a time. Clan alliance is a permanent choice until changed. To change your alliance you will need to speak with an emissary of another clan. The clans and benefits that they, generally, offer are as follows:

• Tarkríp Clan: A blessing of blades, enhancing your monster player character and making them a melee based scrapper with better tactical mitigations.
• Ongbúrz Clan: A blessing of great defense making your monster player a more tnak like character with better overall defense and morale.
• Blogmal Clan: A blessing of healers focusing on mastery and some defense.
• Krahjarn Clan: A blessing focused on functional back-line fighting and leadership with enhanced mastery and critical chance,
• Scara-pack Clan: A blessing of strikers meant to enhance your monster player's critical attacks and mastery.
• Shelob's Brood Clan: A blessing of corrupters meant to enhance mastery and damage over time effects.
• The White Hand Clan: A blessing of a balanced approach to warfare.

Only one of these blessings is applied to your character at a time.

Corruption changes. We are reducing the overall efficacy of the corruptions and moving the amount of benefit from each to the blessings offered by the clan emissaries. With the reduction of the efficacy of the corruption benefits we will also be reducing the number of corruptions needed to gain the set bonuses inherent to corruptions so that two will give the first set bonus and four will give the top level set bonus. The expectation is that the change to corruption traits will leave them with about 1/6th of the efficacy that they previously had.

In Discussion...

These are changes that we are discussing actively and if we move forward on them will move into the In Development section when they are ready for implementation. These are not guaranteed to see addition to an upcoming Bullroarer.

Monster Player Missions Version 1
The goal with this is to provide monster players with a different experience to earn commendations and rank without immediately entering the battle in the Ettenmoors. Unlike player missions, the idea is that these missions take place in iconic areas of the game world where players have caused some distress to the monster population and you've been tasked by leadership to help fix the mess with up to 11 other monster players. The first target for these missions is likely Urugarth, part of the Carn Dûm cluster of instances.

Monster Player Missions Version 2
The goal with this is to provide monster players with a similar experience to the free player side of missions where the spaces are instanced and solo and duo based experiences.

Player Missions
Alongside the creation of monster play missions, is the inclusion of player missions in the Ettenmoors as a way for players to earn commendations and rank.

Player Gear
Adjustments to initial gear granted upon entry to Ettenmoors and how it acquired.

Audacity Overhaul
Currently, it is still possible for a player in normal raid gear to survive and thrive in the Ettenmoors. We are considering harsher restrictions on that gear to enforce a swap to audacity gear. We are aware that the cumbersome nature of that swap is an existing issue and are working to solve that before any implementation along these lines.

Monster Player Allegiances
After the addition of the clans and parsing data for the updates to blessings, we are considering the introduction of allegiances to the monster players. Allegiances would, you guessed it, be tied to different clans available and have a 20 level reward system built around the allegiance to that clan. Your first clan allegiance is free but sets back your ability to join another clan by 2500 points. But fear not, points are earned through the monster player mission system @ ~100-150 points per mission. Additionally, you can find the badges that are used to increased your standing with a specific allegiance from standard monster play drops albeit at a very, very reduced rate. The goal is that achieving the max rank of an allegiance takes ~28 days for your first and ~30 for subsequent days without using mission resets. Rewards will be discussed more when we move out of the discussion phase of this potential development. The blessing would ALWAYS be the boon gifted for reaching Rank 1 of any allegiance.

Troll and Ranger Play

A new version of each of these with a rebalanced version of each of the sessions characters that is ~Nemesis level in survivability and damage. These new sessions would not be tied to the population limits, instead being accessible for Mithril Coins. These new session plays would reward commendations and potentially rank for completing objective in the session. The old sessions bound to population imbalance would get the upgraded treatment and also remain available as they are now.

More to Come...

I'm not done yet... so this is the tease of things to come. I think there is enough to chew on with this post. At least for a little while.

This is all very exciting. I am looking forward to see where this leads - especially as a monster.

[mald123]

No where to go from here. You dumb #### devs have ####ed this game beyond repair. Good job on ruining a genius idea of PvP. Please remain slaves to money and freeps....look how far its got you!

[Daec]

Forum name checks out.

[Baradorion]

Instead of listening to their creep players, they continue to "improve" march and run buffs for creeps to be on par with freeps.

I speak for every creep when I say it was fine as it was, put the maps back, put march and mobilise back, also fix Purge.

You try and try and try but yet you take us further away from what we actually need, I'm a long time creep player, (15 year to be exact) i've seen all the things they've broken (putting it politely) and i've seen the good sides of it.

Actually listen to the community and their ideas and stop throwing random #### into the game without testing it first, this is becoming a joke to creep side.

If creeps get a buff it lasts what, a week? 2 at the most? Once a freep complains then it's nerfed.

[J-Moneyforever]

Instead of listening to their creep players, they continue to "improve" march and run buffs for creeps to be on par with freeps.

I speak for every creep when I say it was fine as it was, put the maps back, put march and mobilise back, also fix Purge.

You try and try and try but yet you take us further away from what we actually need, I'm a long time creep player, (15 year to be exact) i've seen all the things they've broken (putting it politely) and i've seen the good sides of it.

Actually listen to the community and their ideas and stop throwing random #### into the game without testing it first, this is becoming a joke to creep side.

If creeps get a buff it lasts what, a week? 2 at the most? Once a freep complains then it's nerfed.

Wow who knew that all creeps elected this guy to speak for them! I must have missed the vote. Well as a primary creep player I disagree.

[LabadalofDorlomin]

It just occurred to me that the more they push the creeps away from the game, the more they have a fully realised landscape to create PVE content for in an instanced capacity.

And you know how they said that they would love all the content to eventually be open and contiguous - well Creeps have escaped over the borders in the past and so this might not be the craziest idea either.


At the rate they are going it will come sooner than anybody thinks !