Where do we go from here?

[Atomos]

All of these things are on a large white board, along with some other nuggets that we are not prepared to talk about just yet. We’re not committing to direct timelines as there is a lot of work and planning that still needs to be done. But this is a smattering of what is to come.

Silence, in this case, was not golden and I know that there are still going to be a lot of complaints and questions. We stumbled a bit at the end of the year. We have to pick ourselves up, dust off our monster play pants, put them back on, and get the whip cracking behind us to bring things back toward the parity that we are looking to achieve. As I have been fond of saying, this will continue to take time. Just know that we are watching, playing, listening, and reacting.

I will do my best to keep active on this thread over the weekend and into the future.

Thank you for the update!

All of this is pointless if you don't fix the damn lag! We are seeing more and more people on Ark since you've pretty much killed PVP on smaller servers. This means the game is just about unplayable when groups converge. You can expect a good 5 second delay on any skill. Forget trying to hit a moving target cause they will likely be out of range by the time the skill goes off. You don't even have to be in the same zone as the raids to be affected. And it doesn't matter if you're in a raid, fellow, or solo. The BS lag is everywhere.

Unfortunately, Ark and EN are the only real PVP servers now. It is easier to make creeps to play on a new server than it is to make and level a freep, gear it up and so on. I expect many of us are making new creep homes on Ark and EN. At least it won't be boring. Since SSG cannot make a PVP only server location, Ark and EN win just because they currently have PVP populations that support activity and raid groups. This is pretty much where SSG has pushed everyone. The devs favor Ark so the player base will naturally follow the devs. It makes sense to play where the devs play.

If this is the case, I would like to see server upgrades for at least Arkenstone and Evernight, if SSG can afford upgrading only 2 servers.

Arkenstone and Evernight could kind of become the "megaservers" if they have a much higher population than the other servers, and the other servers could be kept for those that prefer a quieter atmosphere.

[hanswurst13]

Yes, we made a bunch of positive steps as we progressed through the year and then, with the release of Before the Shadow we had a couple of missteps. Yes, there was an outcry – and continues to be murmurs – over the changes to maps and to movement for the creeps, creep mitigations, and the relative strength of some player classes to monster player classes. Moreover, designing for the Ettenmoors is not one size fits all, as some have pointed out.

Now, I know I have been quiet for a while. The holidays were very busy and sadly communication was difficulty due to other personal goings-on. But, we are back, we are working and I wanted to speak to the Oliphants stomping through the Ettenmoors ahead of our upcoming roadmap and letter to the players.

This post is not going to be full of a ton of information but it should provide some broad strokes on what it is we are looking to do across the Ettenmoors in the coming year and attempt to explain a bit about the end of 2022.

Map and movement changes are here to stay, but they are not 100% set in stone.

Maps, will likely return in some manner – with both sides having them and being able to use them under the correct circumstances. Our goal with the change to maps, was to stop the behavior the creep’s ability to overwhelm freeps as we got closer to parity. Initially, we scaled the timers back for the release previous to Before the Shadow. We were still seeing the behavior with a number of creeps “porting” into a healthy fight and turning it into a massacre in a matter of seconds. We made the decision to push them back further to curb that behavior.

It certainly set up distinct battle lines. Sadly, these battle lines were on the forums and not in the game.

The second change, to March, we wanted to move until we found the right solution. There are technical reasons why we could not just set them to the same speed as a mount and we are continuing to address some of the backend portions of these changes. Sadly, what should have been a clear enhancement was bugged at release and a further an errant tooltip made the fix look like it had not gone in. It was frustrating from our side as well.
Now, there are still some small problems with the change, but we have made progress and movement is getting much closer to where we want it to be.

Further tweaks will continue, but a full reversal of the changes that we have made to the maps and movement is unlikely.

Creep Balance Changes

The addition of Blessings and reduction of corruption values is meant to be a new way to inspire to specialize your monster player. In a perfect world, this would have been better supported and communicated and turned into a much better and cleaner onboarding to the new normal. Sadly, this went about as opposite as that as possible. I screwed up. I rushed to get the change in and now it is in this weird Frankenstein’s monster state of being that really needs some help.
Help is on the way, fortunately. I will be revising the way that NEW monsters are directed to earn their blessings in a short-term and a better way to apply those permanently will happen earlier, rather than later.

When the permanent solution is in place, it gives us more room to design better diversity and specialization for the monster players and should open a round of new potential for all players to experiment and find the builds that suit them best. Additionally, this will enable us to provide monster players with a little more to do in those periods where players are focused on moving from one level cap to the next and move away from the flat grind for rank.

Sorry to tell you Orion, but the changes you´ve made are all bad.
1st: Movment Speed- you have no possibility to match the spped of creeps with Horses, you did it anyway
Marching across the map with a raid at 50% speed is more drian to the server than some creeps that port.
2nd) you made the map change coz some freeps got wiped ?! wow
3) balance you have made the blessungs while nerving the base stats, you knew what you do, and since you play Arrow its the only one who has a skill to break marsh, lazy
4) you killed pvp on all small servers EN and Ark are the only servers left, and they drain too,


you have only one thing to do
one pvp server where freeps get a lvl 140 stating char with like 1000x drop rate same for creeps with free transfer, remove rohan and all mounted combat on that server give freeps only lvl 140 content- no lag -more fun - problem solved- pvp server- done

since there is no way you can repopulate smaller servers back again

[LabadalofDorlomin]

one pvp server

I have been pushing for this for years. Freeps can have an Eyes n Guard if they like to customize their Freeps on pvp server instead of having any PVE at all. They can buy things from the tavern with COMMS.

This way Creeps aren't competing with all the changes that PVE character developers are doing and can be much more balanced for Ettenmoor only play. Creeps could also have a version of this tavern. Both should have no store purchases though because this is the slippery slope to hell that we are on already.

I know the initial basis for the moors and incentive in playing was that you could play your hero against the forces of evil and then shuffle back forth between PVE and PVP but is it really going to take twenty years to realise that this is a flawed design?

Let's separate PVP entirely. You want to play a creep, you create a character and work in the PVP environment until it can compete. IT should be the same for Freeps. Leave your PVE character in PVE land and hone a pure blood pvp character like the creep.

But, that isn't the developers thought process. They prefer to meddle and then usually a few months after we are deserted and in a worse state than before.


ALSO - make it VIP only !! We can then cheerily wave goodbye to the cheats

WIN WIN

[Nouri]

@SSG_Orion - As some would say, we expect progress not perfection. You have my gratitude and respect for your efforts in that area, Sir...../bow

[Neinda]

Here's an idea. Since the map change was a case of punishing the many because of a few bad apples, why not just remove freep mounts and give everyone the same walking speed around the map? It won't increase those random encounters or the ability of people to actually find a PVP opportunity in the Moors, but it would make the freeps and creeps equal in wandering around aimlessly looking for a PVP opportunity. Creeps might even feel a little less picked on if the freeps lost their ability to move faster than creeps.

[Neinda]

since there is no way you can repopulate smaller servers back again

The bigger problem I see here is that most of those who were PVP cheerleaders on the smaller servers are mostly gone from both PVP and the game now. Those who used to organize Landroval for years I believe have left the game. They have not been seen in the Moors for a very long time. I don't see those smaller servers ever rebuilding again. This last round of changes was one too many for the small servers. It would be very nice and helpful if you looked into the one PVP server location or maybe just a very small PVP map in the Moors.

For now, why not just close everything except for GV, Grams, TA and maybe make whoever owns RoP or Isen OP, owns the rez circles? At least with a truncated map, there would be opportunities for those random encounters. Also, you may want to change the health of TA mobs a bit so the freeps can actually takeover the keep. It is extremely difficult for freeps to take TA these days.

My personal opinion is that the Moors are on life support and end stage care with the player base. Some type of improvement needs to be made creep side sooner rather than later if you truly want the Moors to be something down the road. Changes of some sort are needed now since the last round of changes are here to stay.

Getting some feedback from the smaller servers' player base would be a good starting point toward achieving some sort of balance.

P.S. Please, please test the changes next time rather than dropping them on the live servers. Please listen to the feedback from the players about the proposed changes before setting them in stone.

[subadar]

Creepsides never been in a better position tbh, and i appreciate the effort you guys have put into pvmp, i really do. its a big part of my end game routine after all.

just when you have these huge game changing ideas, ease us into them. make sure they work as intended, and i'm sure the feedback will be better!

[DSBoomer]

Creepsides never been in a better position tbh

Well that is certainly an opinion. We were actually way better off right before this change, IMO. I've given it a few months and it just isn't going to happen for us. I'll spend my money elsewhere. Hopefully they make improvements soon cause I'd like to play this game but it's just become too damn frustrating with the overall gameplay and the unforgiving lag. It's pointless. Good hunting all.

[SSG_Orion]

Sorry to tell you Orion, but the changes you´ve made are all bad.
1st: Movment Speed- you have no possibility to match the spped of creeps with Horses, you did it anyway
Marching across the map with a raid at 50% speed is more drian to the server than some creeps that port.
2nd) you made the map change coz some freeps got wiped ?!

The speed granted by March! is only a few percentage points less than a mounted player. We're getting closer to that parity and likely will have it sometime early in this new year. On your second point, you are misconstruing what the reasoning behind the intent was. The ability to move from point to point in a very short amount of time made a push/pull counter offensive nigh impossible. Further, as we start to push for a wider spread throughout the Ettenmoors, the ability to map as quickly as you previously could constrained our intent too much. The maps were more problematic than they were good.

3) balance you have made the blessungs while nerving the base stats, you knew what you do, and since you play Arrow its the only one who has a skill to break marsh, lazy

Black arrow is not my main creep. I've emphatically stated, time and again, that I am a spider main. The addition of blessings took nothing away from the baseline stats on the monster players. Blessing values were taken directly from corruptions and the corruptions were modified downward.

4) you killed pvp on all small servers EN and Ark are the only servers left, and they drain too,

Part of our goal this year is to help revitalize and assist in restoring the reason to venture into the Ettenmoors.

[SSG_Orion]

Here's an idea. Since the map change was a case of punishing the many because of a few bad apples, why not just remove freep mounts and give everyone the same walking speed around the map? It won't increase those random encounters or the ability of people to actually find a PVP opportunity in the Moors, but it would make the freeps and creeps equal in wandering around aimlessly looking for a PVP opportunity. Creeps might even feel a little less picked on if the freeps lost their ability to move faster than creeps.

If you thought the outcry was bad with the changes that we made to maps was bad... this would be so much worse.

[Neinda]

If you thought the outcry was bad with the changes that we made to maps was bad... this would be so much worse.

True, but you need balance in the Moors. If the freeps can move even a tiny bit faster than creeps, nothing will change. Please spend some time on the small servers and get a feel for what these changes have done to the Moors. The small servers have dealt with the bad apples coming to the server for farming sessions. Most of the small server populations left during those times and each time fewer returned. I tried three times in the past month on different days that used to have activity. During that time I saw one creep parked at Grams. There was a freep outside of Grams but he/she just ignored me as the person was waiting for someone to log on for a prearranged one v one session. All three times I logged on used to be very busy nights on Landy.

[JonXu]

march atm is half cooked skill. There is no warning when pressing skills that skills won't execute. Should be bold red text mid-screen that u are just pressing buttons like a moron. At least it should grey out those skills that u cant use while the channel is active.

And maybe grant some moderator rights to select a few from the active player base. Maybe flagging people who exploit, cheat, etc, etc. Or maybe if they are just and righteous enough to grant then to temporarily ban people or send them to Bree jail to think.

[b4jet9597]

march atm is half cooked skill. There is no warning when pressing skills that skills won't execute. Should be bold red text mid-screen that u are just pressing buttons like a moron. At least it should grey out those skills that u cant use while the channel is active..

This..is what frustrates me the most about the changes. Hitting charge on reaver or SB on WL and just standing there like an idiot, so used to the lag that I don't realize that I forget to disable March lol. It's infuriating.

[TearMaker]

The speed granted by March! is only a few percentage points less than a mounted player. We're getting closer to that parity and likely will have it sometime early in this new year. On your second point, you are misconstruing what the reasoning behind the intent was. The ability to move from point to point in a very short amount of time made a push/pull counter offensive nigh impossible. Further, as we start to push for a wider spread throughout the Ettenmoors, the ability to map as quickly as you previously could constrained our intent too much. The maps were more problematic than they were good.

Why is it so important to base both sides enjoyment based on what Freep PVE developers do to the Freep classes (with zero thought to pvp effect) and then try and make whatever the Freep classes have in their arsenal fit within and around the Creep.

So, basically the Creep is only ever changing to meet the needs of the Freeps development and never any changes that are purely for the Creep classes.

Surely it must be obvious that this area now has to be separate and pandering to the age old flawed adage that Freeps must at all costs be allowed to play in the moors with their PVE character. (this only changes when lazy programming or lack of resource in the area leads a Dev to just prevent use of a skill etc - but that is rare)

Here is a novel idea. How about you work from the Creep side up for once and then adapt the Freeps to meet the Creeps? I mean it couldn't be any worse - could it?

[piefiend]

Part of our goal this year is to help revitalize and assist in restoring the reason to venture into the Ettenmoors.[/QUOTE]

This is part of the reason I wish you had just taken a dagger to PVP and just turned Ettenmoors into a proper PvE map. I didn't like it when Turbine wasted resources on PvP many years back, and I dislike just as much then because it seems like the changes that were made didn't fix the issue. I wish you were working on something else especially making the UI of the legendary weapons better or more sensible. Wholly PvP appears to have bombed badly and there's no way to bring it back as you might wish.

Do I think you should just give up? Yes, in regards to trying to perfect PVP but no in regards to the Ettenmoors itself.

I don't know what technical limitations you work under, but I wonder if it's possible to turn the Ettenmoors into a hybrid PVP/PVE experience. This would be accomplished by designing a full PVE experience but with the idea that the players can help support invasions of NPC characters. Let me write a flow chart:

The player logs into Ettenmoors.
They see that the Freeps control half the control points.
They decide to go to one of the control points.
There there are quests they can do to help supply the forces there perhaps like food, weapons, and quests they can do with random mobs around the area.
Once a certain threshold is met, then an attack can commence full of freeps and freep NPCs.
This creates a defense flashpoint for the creeps that they can participate in. Generally, the attack will always succeed unless there is an opposite intervention. Griefing the players will likely just end in the failure of that control point.
Ideally, these NPCs have motivations that the players want to support, and they have backstories.
The control point changes, and the players now have an opportunity with quests to prepare for defense through quests or perhaps quests to attack more through the threshold for the attack.

What I describe doesn't inherently need more than one player to run the content.

The part I don't know is whether you have the technology to dynamically change the requirement based on player population in Ettenmoors or a particular control point. If there are 10 freeps and 2 creeps, then you'll have fewer NPCs in your attack as a freep. If done properly, then you could have one person running content, or you could have 30 running content, and the requirements for an attack starting will change. What I think is important is that most attacks will fail without the help of the NPC with a backstory. This game is based heavily on helping interesting NPCs. Ettenmoors is one of the areas where that simply isn't a thing in general.

I believe either way you ought to squash the idea of full PVP at this point. It's a waste of resources. I don't feel like the game was designed with it in mind. You can construct a hybrid PVE area that's structured almost like a mission and it might succeed. There will be those would like to retain the PVP but it isn't supported by the players enough at this point. I feel like your trying to fill a round hole with a square tool. I felt that way 15 years ago and I feel that way still.

[Daec]

True, but you need balance in the Moors. If the freeps can move even a tiny bit faster than creeps, nothing will change

What do you consider balance when it comes to mounts vs. march?

Are you're saying that for a 3% movement speed increase on march, you'd be willing to increase the induction, from 0.75s to 2s, at the end of this induction you're rooted in place for ~1s to perform the march animation. Also you cannot queue skills while march is active and immediates such as gut punch and no you don't do not go off do not automatically execute and cancel march but you must cancel march then use the skill.

There, you have mounts now.

[Neinda]

What do you consider balance when it comes to mounts vs. march?

Are you're saying that for a 3% movement speed increase on march, you'd be willing to increase the induction, from 0.75s to 2s, at the end of this induction you're rooted in place for ~1s to perform the march animation. Also you cannot queue skills while march is active and immediates such as gut punch and no you don't do not go off do not automatically execute and cancel march but you must cancel march then use the skill.

There, you have mounts now.

For me, balance is both freeps and creeps going out to the Moors and feeling like there is a possibility for a win. While PVE and the "freeps" are the bread and butter for LOTRO, the creeps don't exist solely to make the freeps feel good. Currently, going out creep side means either nothing to do but walk around the map or to feed the freeps and help them rank up and get bragging rights. Maybe the system is sustainable somehow somewhere but the creeps have pretty much stated their view on the subject. Smaller server PVP is on end stage care if not already dead. I don't see or hear people jumping for joy and rushing to the Moors on any server for the chance to feed a freep. Movement speed is part of the problem and my opinion is that "march" is not a good solution. The SSG dev was correct. If you take horses away from the freeps and they lose the movement advantage they will be rather loud. SSG is banking on the creeps giving in and saying it is OK, we want to PVP so go ahead and give the freeps the advantage and we will figure out a workaround. I personally think the movement changes were just one too many anti creep and pro freep changes this time around. Creeps want to have fun too.

The sad part of all of this, movement change is due to a few bad apples. If I had to guess, most of the people on this forum could name the tribe(s) and people who behaved poorly and caused this change. Those people will work around the movement changes and re-emerge with a new way to cause issues. I feel that SSG is wasting their time and resources trying to outsmart those folks. Same thing happens all the time on the PVE side. A few bad apples use a "loophole" in the system and everyone else get punished while they move on to the next exploit. Problem here is this time the punishment has killed PVP. I guess that is one guaranteed way to stop the poor sportsmanship. Kill the Moors and the bad behavior goes away from the Moors. I believe the phrase is cutting off your noise to spite your face.

[Daec]

For me, balance is both freeps and creeps going out to the Moors and feeling like there is a possibility for a win. While PVE and the "freeps" are the bread and butter for LOTRO, the creeps don't exist solely to make the freeps feel good. Currently, going out creep side means either nothing to do but walk around the map or to feed the freeps and help them rank up and get bragging rights. Maybe the system is sustainable somehow somewhere but the creeps have pretty much stated their view on the subject. Smaller server PVP is on end stage care if not already dead. I don't see or hear people jumping for joy and rushing to the Moors on any server for the chance to feed a freep. Movement speed is part of the problem and my opinion is that "march" is not a good solution. The SSG dev was correct. If you take horses away from the freeps and they lose the movement advantage they will be rather loud. SSG is banking on the creeps giving in and saying it is OK, we want to PVP so go ahead and give the freeps the advantage and we will figure out a workaround. I personally think the movement changes were just one too many anti creep and pro freep changes this time around. Creeps want to have fun too.

The sad part of all of this, movement change is due to a few bad apples. If I had to guess, most of the people on this forum could name the tribe(s) and people who behaved poorly and caused this change. Those people will work around the movement changes and re-emerge with a new way to cause issues. I feel that SSG is wasting their time and resources trying to outsmart those folks. Same thing happens all the time on the PVE side. A few bad apples use a "loophole" in the system and everyone else get punished while they move on to the next exploit. Problem here is this time the punishment has killed PVP. I guess that is one guaranteed way to stop the poor sportsmanship. Kill the Moors and the bad behavior goes away from the Moors. I believe the phrase is cutting off your noise to spite your face.

You completely avoided my question, i see people constantly complaining about march vs. mounts most notably the slight difference in run speed. I am asking again what would you consider balance in regards to march and mounts and if that is simply bridging the movement speed gap (and arguably mounts only real advantage over march) moving from 65% speed to 68% speed, would you give up the other advantages that march has against mounts to attain this equality in movement speed?

[Kate00]

What do you consider balance when it comes to mounts vs. march?

Are you're saying that for a 3% movement speed increase on march, you'd be willing to increase the induction, from 0.75s to 2s, at the end of this induction you're rooted in place for ~1s to perform the march animation. Also you cannot queue skills while march is active and immediates such as gut punch and no you don't do not go off do not automatically execute and cancel march but you must cancel march then use the skill.

There, you have mounts now.

getting rid of maps killed the action across the map.

it literally isn't going to matter if creeps STILL can't dismount freeps if we can move at the same speed or not. I'm sure you like getting away from most creep classes so neither the speed nor the lack of a ranged interrupt bothers you. I personally and tired of freeps getting away all the time. It's not right when creeps can't do the same thing.

[Daec]

getting rid of maps killed the action across the map.

it literally isn't going to matter if creeps STILL can't dismount freeps if we can move at the same speed or not. I'm sure you like getting away from most creep classes so neither the speed nor the lack of a ranged interrupt bothers you. I personally and tired of freeps getting away all the time. It's not right when creeps can't do the same thing.

Considering i mostly play my creeps, i would say i in fact do not concern myself with getting away from most creep classes.

[Neinda]

You completely avoided my question, i see people constantly complaining about march vs. mounts most notably the slight difference in run speed. I am asking again what would you consider balance in regards to march and mounts and if that is simply bridging the movement speed gap (and arguably mounts only real advantage over march) moving from 65% speed to 68% speed, would you give up the other advantages that march has against mounts to attain this equality?

Not avoiding. My preference is no march and no mounts and both sides have the ability to map or walk at the same movement rate. I would give up the current form of march if the movement speed and abilities were the same as mounted. March in its current state is annoying to me. You have to remove march to pick stuff up. You have to restart march after picking something up. March doesn't move fast enough to avoid getting booted out of march. Mounts are smoother and more user friendly to me. When I get attacked on a mount, I know I am on a horse and my skills are grayed out. When I get attacked in march there is nothing to show that I need to turn it off. I am sure others disagree. This is just my opinion and why my preference is to remove all movement outside of walking around the map if maps are no longer a thing. Why would I want to play creep side when the freeps have better range and better movement? I feed enough freeps without them needing an advantage. Why add to it with movement speed?

The last few times I went to the Moors, I started out in march and just gave up. It served no useful purpose and was a tad bit annoying while I walked the map.

[Daec]

I would give up the current form of march if the movement speed and abilities were the same as mounted. March in its current state is annoying to me. You have to remove march to pick stuff up. You have to restart march after picking something up..

You would run into the same issue with mounts, you must dismount to pick things up in the moors.

[Kate00]

You would run into the same issue with mounts, you must dismount to pick things up in the moors.

lets talk about fair shall we .... where is my sprint? where is my ranged interrupt? where is my hips? where is my flop/df?

[Neinda]

You would run into the same issue with mounts, you must dismount to pick things up in the moors.

Just my preference. I find march in its current iteration to be useless and cumbersome. I suspect others agree as the small server Moors/PVP are dead atm and showing no signs of reviving. Festival is over. New expansion has been here a couple of months. Moors are still dead. Creep side has tolerated a lot of changes that were in favor of freeps over the years. I think the movement change was one too many and it has not fixed the problem it was trying to solve unless you consider dead PVP zones as problem solved.

We all have our own ideas on how to make things better. The devs thought the current round of changes to movement would work well. They were not received with the same enthusiasm as I suspect the devs expected.

It is all good. We all have our own ideas but the only ones that count are the ones that the devs develop.

[hanswurst13]

The speed granted by March! is only a few percentage points less than a mounted player.

yes it is, and in combination with the map cd´s any freep on mount can decide if they fight or not.

We're getting closer to that parity and likely will have it sometime early in this new year.

please hold nerfs on the creeps back, do not realese such things and tell us "fix later" or "soon"
since it makes me wonder: do i have to play a brocken thing or do i leave and maybe come back when it´s fixed ?

On your second point, you are misconstruing what the reasoning behind the intent was. The ability to move from point to point in a very short amount of time made a push/pull counter offensive nigh impossible.

there have been much more TA flips bevore the changes ?
and from my expirience a good freep raid leader knows the spawn points and where to fight or not? helping the ez modders again?
and i remeber bevore the change you could actually see freeps camping GTA Map Spawn

Further, as we start to push for a wider spread throughout the Ettenmoors, the ability to map as quickly as you previously could constrained our intent too much. The maps were more problematic than they were good.

make the mayor and the goblin raid bosses . done ?
add some nice Unices , Gandalf , Saruman , you got em all , just choose

Black arrow is not my main creep. I've emphatically stated, time and again, that I am a spider main.

Sorry didnt know better.

The addition of blessings took nothing away from the baseline stats on the monster players. Blessing values were taken directly from corruptions and the corruptions were modified downward.

ok i see, new creep chosses blessing got some extra buff.
but old creep has to choose the right blessing to regain same or close to the same stats, what happend to the Warg ? , BA is dd glasscannon how to rebuild a tanky one?

Part of our goal this year is to help revitalize and assist in restoring the reason to venture into the Ettenmoors.

thank you for your effort, but sometimes you will get pushback, not ment to be personal attacks, but some decision make ppl mad, we play to relax also.