Filling the Gaps: following in the footsteps of the Wildwood and the Angle

[Arnand_the_Fox]

There is no panic involved.
Being committed to World-Building analysis, I voice my curiosity about the future of the development providing facts that may fuel a constructive discussion.

Since you've mentioned the space limits of maps like Mordor before, I have to ask, do you know if the Eriador map have space to expand westward to cover the areas of Lindon? or does it just end like around where the Thorin's Hall map/Grey Havens would be?

[MiniExpBounder]

Since you've mentioned the space limits of maps like Mordor before, I have to ask, do you know if the Eriador map have space to expand westward to cover the areas of Lindon? or does it just end like around where the Thorin's Hall map/Grey Havens would be?

The questing landscape of R1 (Eriador) is placed roughly in the middle of the Table available for the World-Building, thus there is a lot of space to expand in every direction. You can see for yourself at the material referenced at the end of my previous post.

Eriador, up to and including all of the Western Shores, was already shaped properly at the time of the original release of the Lord of the Rings Online in 2007, and still is. You can notice the borders in this post of mine from Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/lotro/comme...eb2x&context=3

When the SSG World-Building team does a job, it does it right.

[Arnand_the_Fox]

The questing landscape of R1 (Eriador) is placed roughly in the middle of the Table available for the World-Building, thus there is a lot of space to expand in every direction. You can see for yourself at the material referenced at the end of my previous post.

Eriador, up to and including all of the Western Shores, was already shaped properly at the time of the original release of the Lord of the Rings Online in 2007, and still is. You can notice the borders in this post of mine from Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/lotro/comme...eb2x&context=3

When the SSG World-Building team does a job, it does it right.

Ahh good.

I'm actually kind of surprised how much detail there is in the southern part of the Erid Luin, and how the Brandywine actually continues all the way out to the coast. As well as how much there is on the northern Erid Luin, and the area often identified as the Lune Rushes. Seeing the early progress of Cardolan and Swanfleet also makes seeing how they would get to the rest of Minhiriath and Enedwaith into the game in a reasonable amount of space more realistic. Though that giant block of land I can't immediately identify what it is in northern Lindon is odd.

Trying to get a perspective on things when the in-game world map, the stable master map, and the actual world terrain, don't actually align with each other is a chore.

[TesalionLortus]

Small forces of guerilla fighters taking down much larger/defend forces is something that happened many times.

It's not impossible and OG Carn Dum played with this kind of premise well enough (or Minas Morgul, where it was a bit larger force with Gondorian contingent though still not that big presumably, but all they had to do was wait/be sneaky and let Lhareth and Ugrohkor take the main blow). But I mean, even if the defensive force isn't as big, but they have such perfect walls and multiple of them, leading to outright citadel, and then even multiple perfectly functional kickass high towers and keeps, then that's a bit too much of a stretch with a big S, no? There wouldn't be anything like Lhaereth and Ugrukhor already laying siege to it and getting through with their armies, either with OG Carn Dum or this new one set in more recent time.

Essentially, the main thing that I’m interested with here is that this newer Carn Dum features of the landscape and some attempt is made to help it makes sense. If they aren’t just revamping the existing one, then a secondary part would make the next most sense to me.

Which was my point this entire time that it wouldn't exactly fit and that's a shame. Making the existing version even stronger in such a strong fashion aside... the new one seems familiar with its layer (and yet looks very different) so this artificial feeling would be given away very easily if you put the two together on landscape. Like having a Ruined Carn Dum next to Pristine Carn Dum Ruled by the WK and the two connected, both in the present time. It would be different if Scenario's intention from the start was to enrich the original space with a new section suitable for a dungeon, maybe as-of-yet-undiscovered part along that path West that the remaining Angmarim renovated and extra fortified to make their last stand. Then, if it was built from matching pieces and not too overblown in how solid it was, as to not completely overshadow OG Carn Dum, which, after all, wasn't in pristine shape apart from its final keep, then it could have worked perfectly as part of landscape in addition to what's there (or at the very least visible on it but not able to tour, like it's the case with OG Carn Dum instance). But, alas, that was not the intention which is why this is such a shame, IMO.

Just to be clear - this last sentence comes across as rather patronising and rude, whether you’d intended it to be or not.

Over the last year this thread has been a positive place where people can suggest their ideas for how they’d like to see the LOTRO world expanded, and you are one of those who have made positive contributions here.

I do not want to see this thread descend into bickering about things not about the topic - but will be reporting this type of thing it if I see it again.

It was not my intension to offend, just some frustration but not without a good point made - if you're comparing two completely different things that were handled in completely different ways, then it's almost like a smoke screen of sorts, rather than address the original argument made, so it's a bit of "I'm starting to bang my head against the wall" feeling - because, at the very least, it feels a bit like someone tries to engage me about something just for the sake of it but they haven't even took a few seconds to investigate the example they were making and realize it's not exactly a matching one (whereas with all other matters people actually do put more effort in this thread). So, frankly, it may even feel a bit offensive to me.

We're all human here, after all, but such things are far from any serious offense though. See, that's exactly something I never do. It would take a HUGE HUGE, as in actual harassment and clear-cut mean language, for me to report someone. The matter actually concerned expanding the world (or how it could have been expanded) and it's not like we haven't discussed assets and something like Arnorian architecture before, so sounds you're not being entirely fair now with your threat of reporting me, all things considered. Like, you yourself admitted I made positive contributions here, so then be fair and just ignore me right now if you really need to rather than feel the need to police just because it's not exactly as "positive and butterflies" that one time coming from me. And if, as an avid player of many games of different kinds, I can't really think of any example of a game world where in the course of one narrative it was suddenly sporting a whole different "alternate" look for place X without any sort of reasonable explanation... well, that's surely a strange situation to have and introduce in the world that you intend to grow and curate well. Even if some are trying to tell me I shouldn't whine about "consistency" at all.

Eriador, up to and including all of the Western Shores, was already shaped properly at the time of the original release of the Lord of the Rings Online in 2007, and still is. You can notice the borders in this post of mine from Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/lotro/comme...eb2x&context=3

This makes me wonder whether they would want to extend some parts of what was drawn. Now it's not just the fact that Grey Havens would probably need a nice chunk of space - so you're running out of space around it, and then they also need to add Tower Hills and transition from the Shire. But now it's also the fact they're going to have these boats, after all, and there is so much you can do with these in mind to make things more interesting in and near waters. The bay that's drawn looks basically the size of Lake Evendim, sure, there are still things you can do with it because that's not super small, but still... extending it a bit for more space, or maybe pushing everything just a bit further West, might be a viable idea. Assuming there is space and not a sudden edge of the map just beyond the ocean. And it's not like LOTRO was ever perfectly accurate with any of its land proportions, so if they can do it, then why shouldn't they and take more advantage of the space

Well, yeah, they should really make all maps, including stable-master one, be a perfect representation of in-game terrain. So orientation within this huge world is far more functional. Rhovanion/Eriador/Gondor maps are getting a bit clunky and unclear, with things being miles apart even if they're not, but that's something they probably need 4k/high res map files support to address

[Hierona]

Was thinking of how they went to Umbar, and this is my conclusion if they were to enable us to walk to there right from the start. Sticking to the sea and don't go into the land to far. Giving us a way to walk from Minas Tirith to Pelargir would be really good I think since normally the south gate is closed. Than first some thick forest like in Ered Mithrin but more bushes and slowly the trees fade and bushes remain where after the desert start around the river between Haronder and near-Harad. If they did all of Haronder it would be far to large to get the quality of newer zones.



Personally think it will be more like this with just a dockmaster in Pelargir who can send us to Umbar. It is less interesting for the journey by a lot, but think it is more realistic to assume this.

[Arnand_the_Fox]

Was thinking of how they went to Umbar, and this is my conclusion if they were to enable us to walk to there right from the start. Sticking to the sea and don't go into the land to far. Giving us a way to walk from Minas Tirith to Pelargir would be really good I think since normally the south gate is closed. Than first some thick forest like in Ered Mithrin but more bushes and slowly the trees fade and bushes remain where after the desert start around the river between Haronder and near-Harad. If they did all of Haronder it would be far to large to get the quality of newer zones.

Personally think it will be more like this with just a dockmaster in Pelargir who can send us to Umbar. It is less interesting for the journey by a lot, but think it is more realistic to assume this.

If they're making a new version of Gondor for this storyline one would think they would include South Ithilien so that the path from Umbar into Gondor, the Harad Road, is in it. Personally I don't think they'll use Pelargir for the dock, Harlond is already next to Minas Tirith, and is were Aragorn got off the corsair ships he stole. They should still be there.

[TesalionLortus]

Whatever they do, I think it's going to be on the Mordor map first, because they gotta make Bâr Thorenion part of landscape, just like they did that with Erebor.

(Also, based on the loading screen screenshot, it's in the mountains, so it would hint at the entire region getting covered, not just parts near the coast)

[Arnand_the_Fox]

Wasn't Bâr Thorenion in North Ithilien? Don't think they would really need to include it in the new Gondor map.

[TesalionLortus]

Wasn't Bâr Thorenion in North Ithilien? Don't think they would really need to include it in the new Gondor map.

Since North Ithilien was covered, my impression was it was maybe in South Ithilien - and there is a huge chunk of it missing in the "After"

[Arnand_the_Fox]

Since North Ithilien was covered, my impression was it was maybe in South Ithilien - and there is a huge chunk of it missing in the "After"

Na I just went and looked, the quest text says North Ithilien

https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Que...ce_for_Hobbits
"Gandalf has led you to Bâr Thorenion in North Ithilien, cut into a high place above Cormallen."

My guess is that its supposed to be in that lone mountain north of Henneth Annûn

[TesalionLortus]

"Gandalf has led you to Bâr Thorenion in North Ithilien, cut into a high place above Cormallen."

My guess is that its supposed to be in that lone mountain north of Henneth Annûn

Ahhh, well okay, totally forgot about that. Yeah, makes sense and that lone mountain is such an eyesore, kind of. So... did they just run out of time to make it part of landscape back then and let us climb that mountain to reach it? Or...? It's especially weird, since they actually built that place somewhere including the entire exterior - made a cool screenshot of it! - but then I guess they didn't actually built it on top of that lone mountain? Strange, I wonder what's the story here - like, if there was no problem with connecting the Court or Erebor, why there was here?

[Arnand_the_Fox]

Ahhh, well okay, totally forgot about that. Yeah, makes sense and that lone mountain is such an eyesore, kind of. So... did they just run out of time to make it part of landscape back then and let us climb that mountain to reach it? Or...? It's especially weird, since they actually built that place somewhere including the entire exterior - made a cool screenshot of it! - but then I guess they didn't actually built it on top of that lone mountain? Strange, I wonder what's the story here - like, if there was no problem with connecting the Court or Erebor, why there was here?

Maybe its because the other 3 faction bases are in friendly cities, that you can kinda work with them being in whatever time frame you're in currently, whereas this one is just out in the world by itself in a map that takes place pre-fall of Sauron, so they didn't want you to leave it only to come out into a map thats set before you should be there?

[TesalionLortus]

whereas this one is just out in the world by itself in a map that takes place pre-fall of Sauron, so they didn't want you to leave it only to come out into a map thats set before you should be there?

They did EXACTLY this with Carmalen fields though, after the Battle of the Black Gate, but you're coming out into "the landscape Carmalen" that's set pre-Fall (if memory serves). So there surely was another reason, unless I'm misremembering things again

[TesalionLortus]

Boats and water possibilities aside, one thing that probably makes me excited for new Southern landscapes and biomes is that... at last we may have something that's NOT in proximity to any mountains? So... far flatter and open?

I know that having visible objects and landmarks to navigate is part of Scenario's world design philosophy but clearly we're not getting them as widespread and huge with this one, no? Cardolan was amazingly huge/open but it wasn't as "calm" if you catch my meaning - despite the size, there was that huge cliffside over there and that kickass tower on the horizon over there, and there yet another huge hill, and another tower, and on and on, always something big on the horizon from any place, never calm. It did fit that ruined kingdom of Arnor through and the geographical approach, which wasn't that of flatlands by any means. But I hope South can be a little bit different and more open than anything we've ever seen before. Make any "navigation" landmarks subtle, merely a distant yet highly specific shape on the horizon, but not outright high elevation or splendorous high ruins or towers. Though there can be some coastal cliffs maybe, here and there, obscuring the view from the sea and you gotta sail around them.

I think literally every LOTRO's landscape right now has a kickass elevation or substantial structure somewhere in immediate vicinity on its horizon. From hills around Bree to Misty Mountains to Blue Mountains (and Rohan between them, with Wildermore sporting a very elevation rich look too) to the Mountains of Shadow and kickass fortresses and keeps all around. But not enough of a calmer views into the subtle flatter distance. This is the result of size compression and how most of action happens around these mountain chains, so they're never too far away, always surround us, plus you do need to be impressive with some of these towers and keeps of course, so it matches and enriches lore. But going South and East, when away from Mordor mountain-walls and near landmarks like seas or deserts, this is the first time to be free of this feeling... if the devs don't insist on adding too many smaller mountain chains, medium hills and cliffs everywhere, that is But yeah, I would love that, if it felt different and far more flat into distances in many of these places (That's the kind of thing that we outright lost in Gondor due to compression, and the distance between coast and mountain/beacon hills was very very small, so it wasn't as "elevation-calm" either)

[Hierona]

If they're making a new version of Gondor for this storyline one would think they would include South Ithilien so that the path from Umbar into Gondor, the Harad Road, is in it. Personally I don't think they'll use Pelargir for the dock, Harlond is already next to Minas Tirith, and is were Aragorn got off the corsair ships he stole. They should still be there.

Yeah, I was actually just imagining they placed a dockmaster at Pelargir and started the 140 zone south of it without including Minas Tirith, or South Ithilien, but they said we will see the existing part a couple years after the war. My guess is they will just extend Minas Tirith (Midsummer) and than go south. South Ithilien is a good one to do as 140 tho cause of the road, but just wanted to see Pelargir again and maybe have a port to it for hunter. XD

[Elmagor]

Yeah, I was actually just imagining they placed a dockmaster at Pelargir and started the 140 zone south of it without including Minas Tirith, or South Ithilien, but they said we will see the existing part a couple years after the war. My guess is they will just extend Minas Tirith (Midsummer) and than go south. South Ithilien is a good one to do as 140 tho cause of the road, but just wanted to see Pelargir again and maybe have a port to it for hunter. XD

Umbar have fleet and harbor, so Aragorn must prepare his own fleet to block Umbar from see, and army to block it from land. So pelargir looks like ideal starting point - we can see how Gondor rebuild it, and in same time we can see how Gondor gather force to finish with Umbar once and for all.

[provamail10]

Umbar have fleet and harbor, so Aragorn must prepare his own fleet to block Umbar from see, and army to block it from land. So pelargir looks like ideal starting point - we can see how Gondor rebuild it, and in same time we can see how Gondor gather force to finish with Umbar once and for all.

At least, they should build Central and Eastern Gondor after the Dawnless day.

[TesalionLortus]

but they said we will see the existing part a couple years after the war

I don't remember them saying that? Pretty sure that's not true, since we're still in July of 3019 TA, about two months after the Battle of the Black Gate.

Umbar have fleet and harbor, so Aragorn must prepare his own fleet to block Umbar from see, and army to block it from land. So pelargir looks like ideal starting point - we can see how Gondor rebuild it, and in same time we can see how Gondor gather force to finish with Umbar once and for all.

It's two months after the Black Gate... before Theodhen's funeral, so not even all formalities and courtesies after Pelennor are truly resolved. While it was somehow plausible that ravaged, squabbling Gorgoroth could be quickly assailed by Gondorian advance force within that time, plus the fact they sent another force to encircle Minas Morgul and take some of it back - but again, most of the work was done for them by the squabbling Masters of Mordor. But it's another thing entirely to... gather an entire fleet and happily sail away for Umbar, not to mention block them by land both at the same time. How many men (who aren't injured after an excessive siege and battles, and still willing to fight) does Gondor have to spare to engage on 3 or 4 fronts now?

Well, yes, the road to Gundabad felt really off in a military sense here, because the advances made there were very quick, but let's just attribute that to the sturdiness of the dwarves and they were not really engaged elsewhere... Men don't have that excuse though. Which makes me pretty sure, since we're going to Umbar now, there will be no Gondorian fleet nor armies parading South. (Unless of course the devs prepared very unbelievable premise, which I hope not, they always did such an amazing job regarding such matters most of the time)

[k40rne]

This gotta be right there as LOTRO's greatest world design sin, next to the overuse of the Gondorian winged heads everywhere, especially in Dol Amroth. *Or perhaps even worse, since at least these wings match one another?

I hope they take advantage of working on a new Gondor and fix that winged head mess & giant busts saturated all over Dol Amroth & also give these cities & fortifications much more character. Barad Gularan would have been a better basis for Carn Dum, but I agree, it has character, it's unique. It doesn't need any uniformity added.

[TesalionLortus]

Barad Gularan would have been a better basis for Carn Dum, but I agree, it has character, it's unique. It doesn't need any uniformity added.

Well, this made me wish. Actually, Barad Gularan IS a bit similar to the final keep of Carn Dum's instance, at least in style (that we never get to explore outside or on its ramparts, we just immediately port into interior of it). So could have been a great idea to make a more detailed version of just that final keep, which lore-wise was the only place that was relatively well-kept rather than just iron stuff built over older, ruined, trashed pieces of walls and towers in earlier sections of Carn Dum.

So this part:



They could have made it more detailed/impressive/bigger in scope so there is space for us to run around (but still stick to the original idea and how it is constructed on this shot) and have some instances of the cluster happening outside - so we actually get to be on these towers, on its ramparts, maybe on some bridges connecting the towers and some other added sections/tunnels/buildings/roads/smaller towers in the back and behind this archway that were never really created/fleshed out because back in SoA that front is all that we ever had to see of it. Well, yeah, plus maybe some possibility that the Angmarim added some new crazy stuff onto it, maybe even built some houses around it, since it turned into their main dwelling now, having been confined just to this core section of the place. This would grow the world (if they could somehow attach it to the public space replacing the old one), revisit an old place that wasn't really well explored, respect the OG vision but make it more detailed and nicer looking, make things interesting with lots of possible modern design choices for the cluster, and make me feel both nostalgic (as in going back to a familiar space but in a new light) and like the world is actually consistent/believable. All check marks crossed.

Now, I know Scenario clearly worked hard on this "reimagination" visible on the screenshot we've gotten and apart from the black mismatching towers, this is a real impressive picture that evokes a feeling of this well-constructed city-fortress. I just disagree with that choice, of it being framed as old Carn Dum of the game. I would rather see something like this in A Tale of Yore about Angmar of old or maybe as an impressive, functional city-fortress somewhere in Nurn (so it's lived-in city space, as opposed to just kickass castles/big towers of Gorgoroth, where they all live inside of them and never in houses outside)

[Arnand_the_Fox]

It's two months after the Black Gate... before Theodhen's funeral, so not even all formalities and courtesies after Pelennor are truly resolved. While it was somehow plausible that ravaged, squabbling Gorgoroth could be quickly assailed by Gondorian advance force within that time, plus the fact they sent another force to encircle Minas Morgul and take some of it back - but again, most of the work was done for them by the squabbling Masters of Mordor. But it's another thing entirely to... gather an entire fleet and happily sail away for Umbar, not to mention block them by land both at the same time. How many men (who aren't injured after an excessive siege and battles, and still willing to fight) does Gondor have to spare to engage on 3 or 4 fronts now?

Well, yes, the road to Gundabad felt really off in a military sense here, because the advances made there were very quick, but let's just attribute that to the sturdiness of the dwarves and they were not really engaged elsewhere... Men don't have that excuse though. Which makes me pretty sure, since we're going to Umbar now, there will be no Gondorian fleet nor armies parading South. (Unless of course the devs prepared very unbelievable premise, which I hope not, they always did such an amazing job regarding such matters most of the time)

gonna have to agree with this. I don't get the feeling this is Aragon's big attack/subduing of Umbar. More like we personally have to go to Umbar for some reason.

[Elmagor]

gonna have to agree with this. I don't get the feeling this is Aragon's big attack/subduing of Umbar. More like we personally have to go to Umbar for some reason.

In term of numbers, it's less when Aragorn army attack Mordor. And he already beat Umbar once with small force

[TesalionLortus]

gonna have to agree with this. I don't get the feeling this is Aragon's big attack/subduing of Umbar. More like we personally have to go to Umbar for some reason.

I was previously convinced that the missing Gurzyul should probably be tied to Mordor as some sort of governors (which was true for all others than Karazgar) but then again, they could have one of those Gurzyul of Nurn make a run for it, show up in Umbar and take the Karazgar approach, albeit in more Mordor'y way - try to dominate Umbar first and then piece by piece influence and dominate the South as his domain. Might be actually more effective than chasing a mcguffin which was done to the death with Karazgar and maybe having a new Gurzyul present, with his own specific condition that he suffers (vampire sun burn, like for orcs in RoP? :P) might at least give us some new insight into that "Bugdatish" plot thread, so not entirely un-relevant and un-connected, like the most of Gundabad (beside Hrimil) was

If they're not really redoing Central-Western Gondor, then their mention "of the Corsair threat to Gondor" might just mean some remnant garrisons of Harondor, that were there way before and maybe assisted the Haradrim in some way (supply route by sea?), so the guys not even connected to the whole invasion force that went with the Scourge from another direction, so pests without too many ships that can be dealt with quickly. And then, maybe we meet up with Jajax on his way towards Umbar (or he sends us that letter), which is how the Gurzyul information comes into play and that's quite relevant motivation for the PC to investigate and for Aragorn to give his blessing and maybe some escort (I guess Gandalf still at Thuringwath?) but defo no need for Gondor to intervene or anything, more of a solo mission, yeah

And with one such as politically ambitious Gurzyul at play, it would be a real melting pot, since the Heirs weren't as keen to be just thralls of Mordor and some of them may be themselves in conflict, plus then the matter of whoever was under the boot of Umbarians and whether they want to become independent, a faction of Jajax who wanna be more like the Pirates of the Caribbean sort of club with a booze and some plunder of whoever but no more conquests, and then maybe the Haradrim who might want a piece of land near Umbar or something. So quite a melting pot that would be and not exactly your typical "romantic good guy rebels arise!"

[TesalionLortus]

In term of numbers, it's less when Aragorn army attack Mordor. And he already beat Umbar once with small force

Like, even if he had every confidence that he could pull that again without any surprises in the way, this is still kinda not a great king image when Umbar is not exactly an outright threat ATM, some are still healing and others available came back from their shift in Gorgoroth and still have nighmares, not to mention the wedding that just happened (give them some peace and... time! LOL) or the fact he is like on the schedule gotta attend that funeral and still has important guests in his house, can't just disappear into the South for who knows how long to lead troops

Also, surprise attach and burning their fleet crippling them for years to come is waaaaay different than a campaign with the intention of taking and securing a city-port, which means you gotta besiege it and be prepared for lengthy outcome

[Elmagor]

Like, even if he had every confidence that he could pull that again without any surprises in the way, this is still kinda not a great king image when Umbar is not exactly an outright threat ATM, some are still healing and others available came back from their shift in Gorgoroth and still have nighmares, not to mention the wedding that just happened (give them some peace and... time! LOL) or the fact he is like on the schedule gotta attend that funeral and still has important guests in his house, can't just disappear into the South for who knows how long to lead troops

Also, surprise attach and burning their fleet crippling them for years to come is waaaaay different than a campaign with the intention of taking and securing a city-port, which means you gotta besiege it and be prepared for lengthy outcome

Now we can find that reasons