Filling the Gaps: following in the footsteps of the Wildwood and the Angle

[Maedol]

I like the new map and the area around. All the same, the update is not much, but it will include the landscape, including a new reputation faction with tasks. I hope a port will be added to this place)

One is just embarrassing. Why is Forodwaith inscribed in the west? It's strange to read the distance between Forochel and Angmar in this most distant northern path, but oh well. Perhaps our path will run through this road to the north, who knows...

[Maedol]

Also new Gondor zone is going to be a part of the Mordor version of Gondor as you can see changes to the area on Bullroarer so probably not a new continent type map.

Definitely so. Changes in the south are noticeable and it pleases that there will be no new, third version, but everything will continue the existing map

old


new

[Phantion]

Tyvm for those screenies!

I did some snooping around myself. Definitely a masonry storyline coming in Harlond; lots of marble blocks all over the place. It also looks like they are removing the Corsair fleet from Harlond After-Battle.

Now . . . I also notice what has not changed: "after-battle" South Ithilien. Bar Hurin's the same pile of ruins. It's all untouched.

Cheers!

[Turin347]

I honestly am a bit tired of pet-projects being the focus of whole Updates. Instead of official "expansions of the game", the most recent Updates had (and have) the feeling of "modding content".
Like, stuff that u see fit for some fan using modding tools and existing assets to twist and make """new""" but "not-official flavoured" stuff.

That's on me, true, but I cant feel the excitement I had when SSG was releasing content I was "expecting", like when pushing the story towards mordor.

It's a strange feeling, but I'll try to explain it the best I can: lately my very first natural impression about lots of new stuff is as it is not canon (game-wise!), cause ok it's new stuff but 100% made with assets I associate to other content, thus it struggles to have its own personality and place in my memory of lotro.
I'd say that in the past few year(s) I've seen modders rather than developers.

I honestly hope that, both in the last year and now, they are just buying more time cause they're making A LOT of HUGE and NEW things that have been taking a pletora of time.

[Arnand_the_Fox]

I like the new map and the area around. All the same, the update is not much, but it will include the landscape, including a new reputation faction with tasks. I hope a port will be added to this place)

Wow, that new map looks a lot better than the f**** mess that Carn Dum looks like now. Looks like an actual, properly made, fortress, rather than the random splattering of "WHAT WERE THEY THINKING!" current Carn Dum looks like

One is just embarrassing. Why is Forodwaith inscribed in the west? It's strange to read the distance between Forochel and Angmar in this most distant northern path, but oh well. Perhaps our path will run through this road to the north, who knows...

Even back in the Forochel map in Shadows of Angmar it's said the "Iron Span" in the eastern part of Forochel led into Forodwaith, and Angmar. There's apparently a pass north into Forodwaith proper in the area between Forochel, and Angmar. Likely the path the Forodwaith people used to reach Forochel, and become the Lossoth, after they left Forodwaith in the distant past.

How can all the culture of a human reach this stage of ugliness?

This still looks a lot better then the mess of Carn Dum we got back in regular Angmar. OG Carn Dum doesn't make a lick of sense design wise.

Also new Gondor zone is going to be a part of the Mordor version of Gondor as you can see changes to the area on Bullroarer so probably not a new continent type map.

That is.... disappointing for sure.

"Hey guys I know we just barely survived this horrible attack by the combined forces of Mordor, the Easterlings, and the Haradrim, but uhh.... wanna help us rebuild this small port city to the south?" doesn't make much sense narrative flow/design wise. That's like some early Shadow of Angmar "we're just throwing new maps all over the place" type of progression, rather than the nicer progression we've gotten since Moria onward.

[TesalionLortus]

It's a strange feeling, but I'll try to explain it the best I can: lately my very first natural impression about lots of new stuff is as it is not canon (game-wise!), cause ok it's new stuff but 100% made with assets I associate to other content, thus it struggles to have its own personality and place in my memory of lotro.
I'd say that in the past few year(s) I've seen modders rather than developers.

I would say you brought up an interesting point drawing that parallel. LOTRO isn't quite there yet and far from there (and I don't mind them reusing some assets where it makes absolute sense to do). But it's been running for some time now and some of these "consistency cracks" are beginning to show, not super seriously (...other than this Carn Dum) but it's still kinda worrying. You know - these kinds of awesome projects where the modders done amazing work but some years passed and rather than continue they suddenly decided to redo old stuff or even completely change some of their storylines? For pettiness, outright perfection or otherwise because they've come to think differently and can't accept the fact they've done something differently once before? Or even in the realms of longer running TV series, where their authors just completely forget their previous lore or stop being consistent in any way, just doing whatever. Or, in case of forever-in-early-access games or some larger mods done by small crews - where the devs are tweaking things forever and constantly going back to change some things or make them perfect but actual game never gets released.

LOTRO far from it, of course, but I can't help like we're getting some red flags of such vibes, like you mentioned. From the new Carn Dum map I'm sensing another red flag - so after all, it IS going to be part of open world somewhat, that they hint at Forodwaith connection on it? Whereas what I really wanted is that they fill that OG Angmar (with real CD) to Forochel gap and go to Forodwaith from there at some point. I'm glad they're expanding After Gondor, so no strange third map insanity on that front, after all. Though the Corsair ships being gone from Pelennor make me wonder... surely they remember Pelennor is set at the time right after battle. Surely? Because if not, that's another red flag and "modder" quality (like they forget there are players who may not be at end game yet...). I know they're generally avoiding it but if they wanna do changes like this then they have phasing for that. After Pelennor map is set right after the battle - the fleet should be parked there for effect, not suddenly immediately gone once you've done the battle. And they should fix that backyard gate to Morgul Vale too... and make it closed to new players. Things like that *matter* It's not a mod to do things on a whim because it's just a mod, it's a game offering earlier level content too and what this earlier level content was supposed to represent (design wise) or effect it was supposed to convey should be respected and taken into account, not just dismissed and replaced with effect intended for cap players or entirely new differing version that the dev fancied in the present day for whatever reason.

Going forward, that's probably my request to the devs - please be consistent and mindful of this... and believable, sensible on storyline front too, with whatever gets depicted (surely these ships aren't gone now so.. Aragorn can do war 2 months after the Fall? Surely?). It's been so many years and the world grew so big, plus you're not exactly guided by Tolkien's description of the war that made it much easier earlier, which is why I can understand some missteps, but that's exactly why I'm mentioning these things and would expect you to see some reason If everything makes sense from this point onward, then I can't wait for Gondor and Umbar

[TesalionLortus]

Wow, that new map looks a lot better than the f**** mess that Carn Dum looks like now. Looks like an actual, properly made, fortress, rather than the random splattering of "WHAT WERE THEY THINKING!" current Carn Dum looks like
This still looks a lot better then the mess of Carn Dum we got back in regular Angmar. OG Carn Dum doesn't make a lick of sense design wise.

It makes perfect sense unless you just want a city of the Witch King from the times of his prime in the North untouched by the victorious good guys and with every resource delegated (from Sauron) to make it kickass and well-kept years into the end of Third Age. OG Angmar was supposed to be a crumbling awkwardly renovated place with its False King, not some powerhouse of a pristine well-kept fortress, just a mockery forgotten keep with a mockery steward on its throne (which was the entire big reveal behind it...). That, plus even with the OG design, it wasn't just a joke (as a potential force to be reckoned with), taking into account how most castles look and how it wasn't anything less than that. But at least you could tell it wasn't Angmar at its prime... which was clearly the intention. Also, it was placed in the mountains, with lots of passes and elevations... so it made sense it had smaller sections guarding its passes connected to each other rather than... a singular walled squared city... like it's on plains or something...

"Hey guys I know we just barely survived this horrible attack by the combined forces of Mordor, the Easterlings, and the Haradrim, but uhh.... wanna help us rebuild this small port city to the south?" doesn't make much sense narrative flow/design wise. That's like some early Shadow of Angmar "we're just throwing new maps all over the place" type of progression, rather than the nicer progression we've gotten since Moria onward.

Good. At least they can expand the landmass rather than get busy with recreation of same landmasses where it isn't exactly needed. As I said, a map placed next to another map but happening a week, 2 weeks or 2 months after that other map... is pretty much LOTRO's standard, from SoA and beyond. We don't need a new version of each map for some tiny details because it's set a little bit forward. Similarly, with Carn Dum now, seeing how it's just one of the innis (I think?) that actually happens outside, it really should have been just an expansion of existing landscape, maybe of the keep since this one was cosmetic/untraversable, with more details introduced to it. Not a recreation of the entire city in its own separate non-canon bubble map

[Arnand_the_Fox]

And they should fix that backyard gate to Morgul Vale too... and make it closed to new players. Things like that *matter* It's not a mod to do things on a whim because it's just a mod, it's a game offering earlier level content too and what this earlier level content was supposed to represent (design wise) or effect it was supposed to convey should be respected and taken into account, not just dismissed and replaced with effect intended for cap players or entirely new differing version that the dev fancied in the present day for whatever reason.

Going to have to disagree with this for a few reasons
1. Phasing tech really only applicable to NPCs. Trying to phase open a large physical barrier like that isn't something you generally want to do from a design standpoint, unless the area the barrier is in is itself a closed off instanced area thats only available to individual players.
2. You can't force players to play content in a specific order. If a new player gets the game, buys all the content, gets a level boost, and decides "I like Minas Morgul from the books/Movies, I want to go there" you can't just force them to go through the entire rest of the Black Book storyline first. They bought the content, they should be able to play it.

This not getting into the larger discussion that functional doors, that aren't just swirly load portals, are considered one of the most difficult things to do in games because of how much they screw with AI, and its generally recommended that you don't use doors unless absolutely necessary.

[TesalionLortus]

Going to have to disagree with this for a few reasons
1. Phasing tech really only applicable to NPCs. Trying to phase open a large physical barrier like that isn't something you generally want to do

Which I get, as I said, I know they want to avoid that. But no, it's not only applicable to NPCs, given the Black Gate situation... my point was: if you really want these types of situations (closed before, now opened) no way around it use phasing otherwise it looks stupid. They could have a chapter you pick up before the gate that deals with its shuttering, for example. Or, easier, leave the gate closed but be mindful of the earlier story and that you need it closed, so have the Rangers find a sneaky path through the mountains instead, for cap story of Morgul Vale. Similarly, with Halrond and Corsair fleet, if there isn't any phasing applied there, just... don't move the fleet instead. It's not too much of a stretch that it would remain parked at Halrond.

[Arnand_the_Fox]

It makes perfect sense unless you just want a city of the Witch King from the times of his prime in the North untouched by the victorious good guys and with every resource delegated (from Sauron) to make it kickass and well-kept years into the end of Third Age. OG Angmar was supposed to be a crumbling awkwardly renovated place with its False King, not some powerhouse of a pristine well-kept fortress, just a mockery forgotten keep with a mockery steward on its throne (which was the entire big reveal behind it...). That, plus even with the OG design, it wasn't just a joke (as a potential force to be reckoned with), taking into account how most castles look and how it wasn't anything less than that. But at least you could tell it wasn't Angmar at its prime... which was clearly the intention. Also, it was placed in the mountains, with lots of passes and elevations... so it made sense it had smaller sections guarding its passes connected to each other rather than... a singular walled squared city... like it's on plains or something...

Good. At least they can expand the landmass rather than get busy with recreation of same landmasses where it isn't exactly needed. As I said, a map placed next to another map but happening a week, 2 weeks or 2 months after that other map... is pretty much LOTRO's standard, from SoA and beyond. We don't need a new version of each map for some tiny details because it's set a little bit forward. Similarly, with Carn Dum now, seeing how it's just one of the innis (I think?) that actually happens outside, it really should have been just an expansion of existing landscape, maybe of the keep since this one was cosmetic/untraversable, with more details introduced to it. Not a recreation of the entire city in its own separate non-canon bubble map

This isn't what I meant.

What I meant was the original Carn Dum doesn't make sense design wise at a fundamental level. The image of the LOTRO google map I posted above doesn't look like anything coherent, or real. It doesn't look like some ancient super fortress of days long done hastily rebuilt. It looks like nothing but a random collection of walls and towers, hastily thrown about all over the place, because "big = cool right?"

Early LOTRO had this problem all over the place. The ruins in the Lone Lands, Esteldin and Fornost in the North Down, Carn Dum in Angmar, it was just random walls, pillars, towers, and w/e thrown about all over the place. None of it looks like something people would really build. It wasn't until Eregion to a lesser extent, but Enedwaith/Dunland/Rohan that they actually started building towns, ruins, and such in a way that actually felt like you could look at it and go "yeah, I can see how this is ruins of a place that might have of existed. Only place that was remotely passable pre-Moria was Annuminas.

By comparison, the layout of Carn Dum in the map posted by Maedol at the top of the page here actually looks like a real fortress city. New Carn Dum looks inherently more real, like a place that might actually exist, compared to the old one. Especially when looking at the "balcony ramparts" picture you posted on the last page which is laughably bad looking.


And the difference between the other post SOA maps and this is that those still FELT like they could be right next to each other. I can go from Lothlorian, to the Great River, to all of Rhoan, into the Gondor maps, and not feel like they're out of place with each other timeline wise. This is like if Snowborn got leveled in Rohan, and everyone is talk about how hard its going to be to rebuild, and then across the river, within sight distance, we see scaffolding and such of the people of Rohan rebuilding the next town.

[Hierona]

I like the new map and the area around. All the same, the update is not much, but it will include the landscape, including a new reputation faction with tasks. I hope a port will be added to this place)

How does this compare to the old one? Is the old one also getting a revamp, or is this north of the old casle?

One is just embarrassing. Why is Forodwaith inscribed in the west? It's strange to read the distance between Forochel and Angmar in this most distant northern path, but oh well. Perhaps our path will run through this road to the north, who knows...

Cause Forodwaith and Forochel are different things. Between Angmar and Forochel is a part of Forodwaith.

[Arnand_the_Fox]

How does this compare to the old one? Is the old one also getting a revamp, or is this north of the old casle?

Its an instanced area completely separate from the normal world map. The old one is remaining the same.

[Phantion]

One thing that seems plain from the BR Gondor changes: We're probably going to see After-Battle Lossarnach out through Dor-en-Ernil and Ringlo Vale on the "Mordor" map.

I honestly wish they'd rename the "Mordor" map to "The South-lands" or "The Southern Realms" or something and have sub-regional maps for "Gondor (After-Battle)" and "Mordor" - with "Mordor" confined to the actual zones in "Mordor" - kind of like what they did on the Rhovanion map with Rohan. It would be more accurate. They could make similar moves with Umbar and Harad later.

Here are some updates I'd like to see . . .

Pelargir: Interiors. We entered it at "war-time" but never got to see what life was like in the city itself. So, I'd like to see a large, multi-leveled interior for an After-Battle Keep of the Ship-Kings. I'd also like to see Pelargir as a main hub. I think it's a good opportunity to see what it looks like with the rubble cleared and things looking nicer. Maybe some taverns, etc. Make it a lived-in space.

Same with that harbor between Pelargir and Harlond - and Harlond itself for that matter. Time to see life returning to these spaces (*I mean with interiors; only Pelargir really needs the town services; Arnach of course was a useful hub in pre-battle Lossarnach also).

Central Gondor at large: Expanded northern vales. Extend the Gilraen. Extend the other rivers. Have some mountain hill-towns and other sorts, more like Morlad, and maybe a mountain fortress or two. Build some passes between vales - maybe some "tastes" of Ered Nimrais.

They can do a lot more with some of these spaces than they could in the war-torn versions of the regions

I also think that Pelargir's harbor had some significant flaws. The whole harbor was completely exposed with tall, open hills on the southern side of the Anduin between the sea-gates. Any army of archers with fire arrows could've burned Gondor's fleets with ease throughout its long history if that was the case. I believe Pelargir needs a "southern half," if only of fortifications - something that would "sell" the story of Gondor having moments of prowess in its Ship-King history. I'd like to see them develop the lands south of Pelargir going all the way out to the sea.

Cheers!

[TesalionLortus]

It looks like nothing but a random collection of walls and towers, hastily thrown about all over the place, because "big = cool right?"

Fundamental how? The new one is a bit awkward at exactly the fundamental level, while the old one has some lore/geographical flavors in favor of its layout choices. You don't see the irony in this but the reason the new one exists (in a way it was done anyway) is precisely because "big, pristine, bold and perfectly walled = cool and real right?" Which is not true and sounds cheap, quite frankly, when everything is being filtered though the same lenses. You completely ignored what I mentioned already, that OG Carn Dum has these narrow pathways with separate sections that guard them and it wasn't supposed to be a perfect organized city planning with a king giving out edicts. It was a mountain fortress nested in mountains, not easy to access, and separate connected sections guarding said passes. The place would look much better and better organized under the Witch-king of course, but the old layout wasn't unbelievable.


You wanna talk what feels real and what doesn't? OK


For starters, note the reimagined version is perfectly walled and treated as if it was a perfectly buldozered plain, with functional flat space for a city layer. Or not exactly flat... because it's all on the elevation to mirror the OG layout somewhat, with a long way down, but still perfectly buldozered, rather than naturally built into mountainous terrain and elevation - and the OG version tried to fit into the elevations of the terrain, not buldozer with 21st century explosives and buldozers to make space for a perfect square layout (... or Scenario's internal terrain editing tools, because yeah, it really does feel that way, forced - delete mountains make flat space for cool fortress). Sure, we can pretend "it was always like this! there was actually such a convenient elevated mostly flat surface here with a nice chasm, and that's where WK built it!" but not really, because I'm still seeing the rest of Angmar's landscape down there and this steep pathway leading to Carn Dum from the South... and it was clearly supposed to be mountainous terrain, high up, with tricky pathways suitable for different interconnected sections, not singular walled square space like the reimagined one. In fact, if you take the placement into account - the OG one felt more real. And it wouldn't be unbelievable that the Witch-king would choose such a place, trying to be secretive at first and not exactly expecting a perfect "lived in human space" for his keep (is any of the Mordor fortresses "realistically" "lived in"?). Also, for lived in, you have all the square ruins/cities of the Southern Angmar, so it's not like this aspect of infrastructure/society wasn't covered in the OG Angmar's repertoire.

Especially when looking at the "balcony ramparts" picture you posted on the last page which is laughably bad looking.

Maybe because it was back then, so yes, a bit older methods, and - most of all - that section of the keep is mostly very cosmetic? Just to be visible but that's beyond the map so wasn't considered as crucial. (The ending section of Fornost is even worse but there should be a decent palace or entire king's tier in its place). But it doesn't mean this layout isn't real. It could have been brought up to modern standard but kept as is. In fact, it does remind me of some castles of the real world - narrower sections or balconies adjacent to main keep, as part of it. And yet you wanna tell me it's just laughable and the only "real" way would be outright portioned tiers, with bold very high towers sticking out? Making it effectively a set of randomized, separate towers put between tiers of walls and not a classic keep/castle? Sorry, nope.




Also, I have no idea what Scenario's idea of "real" was with these Dol Guldur bold towers anyway. In Dol Guldur itself they're not exactly towers - they're more like bold high sections of the main fortress and part of a whole, not separate bold towers sticking out.


I guess Scenario intended to do something like this:







But seems like... he forgot to place them correctly and they're far too big anyway. The purpose of such sections is to harass attackers from the sides, throw javelins and other things at them - not to look "cool and big." How are the Angmarim supposed to do that from these colossal towers? 2x bigger or more than actual height of the wall? Unreaslitic. And why are these pieces backwards? Should have more room to manouver on the outside, against the attackers, not inside. Unrealistic. So there is literally no justification for including these assets in the first place, none of this feels real.


In fact, as I already mentioned, the OG Carn Dum feels more real from a military standpoint - and that's the most important one that would matter anyway, even if the builders of Angmar Reborn weren't great city planners, which is completely believable that they weren't. In OG Carn Dum, it's in the mountains, filled with chocke points, and they have walls built along the pathways, so they could harass the enemy. Even a normal-sized wall can be effective. Fortresses and keeps may differer in stature and design, depending on practical factors first and foremost, and what terrain we're working with, not on a fancy to have perfect city planning with kickass big walls in a square at all cost.

Early LOTRO had this problem all over the place. The ruins in the Lone Lands, Esteldin and Fornost in the North Down, Carn Dum in Angmar, it was just random walls, pillars, towers, and w/e thrown about all over the place. None of it looks like something people would really build.

And places like Tyrn Gorthad and the like don't either, as far as real world goes. They seem far too cluttered and an easy target if you focus your fire on specific points. They're just far too fancy sometimes, where practical matters less but fancy living in impressive space matters more. But then again, Arnor never had advanced enemies before Witch-king and it was an advanced kingdom that wanted to show off its fanciness - so makes sense. Everything has context that needs to be considered. There is no one-size-fits-all and there is no "one believable way" to build things like cities and fortresses. Layout - and history of how they were built, organized or less organized and disconnected - may vastly differ. Speaking of which, many walled cities that grew up to be these cities were actually smaller towns/cities that eventually converged - that wasn't a "plan" that resulted in some perfect square. How is that for regularity? With good administration you can get some individual districts right - or specific locales, palaces and fortresses. But not entire cities. The layout of the new Carn Dum is just too regular. So the irregularity of the old one is far more realistic, too, as far as the layout goes. Maybe Numenoreans and their descendants can be good city planners sometimes and undergo amazing projects that grew in some well-planned city marvels (such as MT), and maybe Sauron has good logistics for some of these Mordor fortresses but... the Angmarim and not in their prime no less??? Let's be serious...


You're right of course that many of these older places were done more on a whim, to accommodate the dungeon design, but it doesn't mean it's all so bad. First, many of these are so ruined that basically we have no idea how they could have look like in their prime, and frankly, some are far more spacey than any of the new stuff that the devs come up with, which make me feel like I can imagine entire wooden cities inside these walls (versus just tight stone spaces, which is mostly the case with Cardolan). So that's not a problem at all, in the end. Fornost? Needs some doors, windows and a place for a king, but otherwise one of the strongest PRACTICAL fortress layouts in the game up to date. (feels very real on that front)


I often hear Scenario say that, that some of these spaces don't feel real, but seriously, I always wanna scream that with some of them it doesn't even matter at all because we can hardly tell what was the full extent of them and with others they *do* look *real* - just in a different way, like more practical from military standpoint. Or as a more believable "regular" city space, that was maybe filled with wood too, *not just stone.* So he should really stop beating himself up about it :P And I would also love to see more kinds of spaces and layouts, even Helm's Deep itself (and that's from the lore!) is more unique, nested in a mountain, one wall, one keep, not perfect square, not kickass towers everywhere. Cities or keeps nested in or near different types of elevations, with natural borders set on rivers or waters, maybe defenses focused on one particular chocke point for one reason or another. Maybe there was never an enemy they would have to fight so they don't need kickass defences, or maybe they have a moat etc, or a mashup of wood and stone, with a stone keep at center. Think of the terrain first and whether they would even need defenses in the first place, whether they would - historically - expect frequent attacks or not and from whom, whether they had resources to have as many walls and sustain them, whether it was supposed to be a crumbled place in the mountains, with different sections, or maybe a more regular lived in space on a plain, whether it was supposed to be a functional city or a monument. The latter would fit nicely to describe all fortresses of Mordor - they also don't feel "real" as "lived in" spaces, and I'm okay with that, the context considered, since they're kickass goth monuments to boost their rulers' egos - but that's why I would love to see more cities in Nurn, some walled with a long (not necessarily squared) wall, others with no defences at all perhaps. Maybe an evil castle near water or on island. But yeah, take all factors into consideration and have some variety, especially now that we're moving forward to new cultures. Don't just say some things aren't real (in terms of layouts/ideas) just because they were older and because they don't immedietelly seem like impressive powerhouses with 7 sets of walls and tiers and a bunch of towers. I guess it's much easier when creating these Gondor/Arnor places... Why? Because they'll always get a free pass. Even if they're all cluttered and powerful, all from stone, and tower upon tower in curious places, it's kinda believable show-off with this particular civilization, they're amazing architects and city planners overall and not much enemies from other fronts than East. (OK, maybe Dol Amroth could use some gentle tweaks where wings and heads were overdone...). But otherwise, with different cultures, let's be real and take into account all factors, like terrain, its purpose, practical layout for military defense (big is not always practical nor believable), resources of the owner and whether it is in its prime or not... and asset consistency too, so doesn't end up as a mashup of different sets created with different things in mind. Now, that would be nice and real

This is like if Snowborn got leveled in Rohan, and everyone is talk about how hard its going to be to rebuild, and then across the river, within sight distance, we see scaffolding and such of the people of Rohan rebuilding the next town.

That's a fake impression, due to how the game was always set during the War of the Ring, so white hand orcs here and white hand orcs there burning Rohan fields - no difference. But the difference in time was actually there and you can run into (or just see) places such as Rohan's army gathering at Dunharrow prematurely. That's nothing new, happens sometimes. As for Gondor, of course any scafoldings and things directly related to current ongoings, should be hidden a bit further beyond the border. Or, like with these ships, they should really stay at Harlond. There is literally no reason to move them and whatever quests they want to have related to them - could happen at Harlond but they should be there to convey that fresh image of After battle fields.

[TesalionLortus]

Central Gondor at large: Expanded northern vales. Extend the Gilraen. Extend the other rivers. Have some mountain hill-towns and other sorts, more like Morlad, and maybe a mountain fortress or two. Build some passes between vales - maybe some "tastes" of Ered Nimrais.

Well, yes, but make sure it's somewhat reminiscent on the older in war landscape. Say, if they reshape too much and it looks outright different (or they removed entire mountains here and there) - do reflect that on the old map somehow *please* (just like they did with Azanulbizar/Lorien update of landscape). So either entirely mirroring it on the old landscape like with Azanulbizar or... at least cosmetically and geographically but not traversable. (Though, in that case, I would welcome portals in suitable spots that can teleport me from War map to these new places/extended valleys on the After war map)

I also think that Pelargir's harbor had some significant flaws. The whole harbor was completely exposed with tall, open hills on the southern side of the Anduin between the sea-gates. Any army of archers with fire arrows could've burned Gondor's fleets with ease throughout its long history if that was the case. I believe Pelargir needs a "southern half," if only of fortifications - something that would "sell" the story of Gondor having moments of prowess in its Ship-King history. I'd like to see them develop the lands south of Pelargir going all the way out to the sea.

Cheers!

I think, realistically speaking, the space and the port itself would be far more larger, so technically, with the mouth of Anduin being massively wide (that what it seems like in the game) maybe arrows from other shore wouldn't be such a threat. But yeah, they can have some fortress/towers guarding that other shore. Yep, I wanna see continuous sea, definitely! Unless they actually MOVED everything to make space for the Southern lands on this Mordor map - something like I posted before, the borders/teleport sketch with the bay and region border somewhere at Harondor's borders seems likely.

[k40rne]

honestly wish they'd rename the "Mordor" map to "The South-lands" or "The Southern Realms" or something and have sub-regional maps for "Gondor (After-Battle)" and "Mordor" - with "Mordor" confined to the actual zones in "Mordor" - kind of like what they did on the Rhovanion map with Rohan. It would be more accurate. They could make similar moves with Umbar and Harad later.

I don't see how their internal map names affects you at all.

Here are some updates I'd like to see . . .

Pelargir: Interiors. We entered it at "war-time" but never got to see what life was like in the city itself. So, I'd like to see a large, multi-leveled interior for an After-Battle Keep of the Ship-Kings. I'd also like to see Pelargir as a main hub. I think it's a good opportunity to see what it looks like with the rubble cleared and things looking nicer. Maybe some taverns, etc. Make it a lived-in space.

Same with that harbor between Pelargir and Harlond - and Harlond itself for that matter. Time to see life returning to these spaces (*I mean with interiors; only Pelargir really needs the town services; Arnach of course was a useful hub in pre-battle Lossarnach also).

Central Gondor at large: Expanded northern vales. Extend the Gilraen. Extend the other rivers. Have some mountain hill-towns and other sorts, more like Morlad, and maybe a mountain fortress or two. Build some passes between vales - maybe some "tastes" of Ered Nimrais.

They can do a lot more with some of these spaces than they could in the war-torn versions of the regions

Yes, Pelargir hopefully will have their high bridge leading to the island of Tol Ciryarani repaired but unlikely to see inside the palace interior. I really hope they would make it more believable with the town surrounding a large fortified city too.

This is an interesting interpretation of Pelargir.
https://ibb.co/M92bvSD

[Arnand_the_Fox]

That's a fake impression, due to how the game was always set during the War of the Ring, so white hand orcs here and white hand orcs there burning Rohan fields - no difference. But the difference in time was actually there and you can run into (or just see) places such as Rohan's army gathering at Dunharrow prematurely.

There's nothing fake about that. Everything being set during a specific time, and looking like it should all flow because of it, is exactly the opposite of unfake. Its the definition of real. And theres a very large difference between "some guys gathering at a holdout spot WAY in the back of Rohan" and "literally next do to the capital of Gondor"

I often hear Scenario say that, that some of these spaces don't feel real, but seriously, I always wanna scream that with some of them it doesn't even matter at all because we can hardly tell what was the full extent of them

Disagree entirely. Even in heavily weathered down ruins you can easily look at something and do "this feels real" and be able to imagine what it might have been even if you can't see the whole picture.

Don't just say some things aren't real (in terms of layouts/ideas) just because they were older and because they don't immedietelly seem like impressive powerhouses with 7 sets of walls and tiers and a bunch of towers

This was never what was being said and constitutes nothing more than a straw man.

They seem far too cluttered and an easy target if you focus your fire on specific points.

There is a very big difference between not feeling real because of layout, and being too small because its an MMO and everything is massively scaled down. they're really not the same.

But seems like... he forgot to place them correctly and they're far too big anyway. The purpose of such sections is to harass attackers from the sides, throw javelins and other things at them - not to look "cool and big." How are the Angmarim supposed to do that from these colossal towers? 2x bigger or more than actual height of the wall? Unreaslitic. And why are these pieces backwards? Should have more room to manouver on the outside, against the attackers, not inside. Unrealistic. So there is literally no justification for including these assets in the first place, none of this feels real.

The towers give the Anmgariam a pretty clean view of the town below, and to shoot arrows into it in case the outer wall gets breached. Makes sense to me.

In fact, as I already mentioned, the OG Carn Dum feels more real from a military standpoint

Not really. No military planner would build the complex of Carn Dum like it was back in Angmar. Its too random, too hodgepodge, its not laid out in a way that makes sense or is easily defensible. It looks ornate for the sake of being ornate. The new one looks more militarily designed because its compact nature makes it more easily defensible.

Fundamental how? The new one is a bit awkward at exactly the fundamental level, while the old one has some lore/geographical flavors in favor of its layout choices. You don't see the irony in this but the reason the new one exists (in a way it was done anyway) is precisely because "big, pristine, bold and perfectly walled = cool and real right?" Which is not true and sounds cheap, quite frankly, when everything is being filtered though the same lenses. You completely ignored what I mentioned already, that OG Carn Dum has these narrow pathways with separate sections that guard them and it wasn't supposed to be a perfect organized city planning with a king giving out edicts. It was a mountain fortress nested in mountains, not easy to access, and separate connected sections guarding said passes. The place would look much better and better organized under the Witch-king of course, but the old layout wasn't unbelievable.

Everything about the landscape makes no sense. Its this massively sprawling complex, supposedly built into the mountains, but its way too open/large for it to be a believable mountain complex. The giant pit, which isn't even a moat, or the remnants of a moat, are just randomly thrown into the middle of it because uhhh.... "scary pit is cool"? Not even getting into Urugarth which is just a giant collection of "what am I looking at"

The new one has the keep itself very obviously built into the mountains, with a VERY small open space between the mountains being used as a small fort-city complex..... like if it was actually built into the mountains and not just massively bulldozed/explosives into it like the old one HAD to have been to accommodate the sprawling, nonsense, layout it had.

[MiniExpBounder]

There's nothing fake about that. Everything being set during a specific time, and looking like it should all flow because of it, is exactly the opposite of unfake. Its the definition of real. And theres a very large difference between "some guys gathering at a holdout spot WAY in the back of Rohan" and "literally next do to the capital of Gondor"


Disagree entirely. Even in heavily weathered down ruins you can easily look at something and do "this feels real" and be able to imagine what it might have been even if you can't see the whole picture.


This was never what was being said and constitutes nothing more than a straw man.


There is a very big difference between not feeling real because of layout, and being too small because its an MMO and everything is massively scaled down. they're really not the same.


The towers give the Anmgariam a pretty clean view of the town below, and to shoot arrows into it in case the outer wall gets breached. Makes sense to me.


Not really. No military planner would build the complex of Carn Dum like it was back in Angmar. Its too random, too hodgepodge, its not laid out in a way that makes sense or is easily defensible. It looks ornate for the sake of being ornate. The new one looks more militarily designed because its compact nature makes it more easily defensible.


Everything about the landscape makes no sense. Its this massively sprawling complex, supposedly built into the mountains, but its way too open/large for it to be a believable mountain complex. The giant pit, which isn't even a moat, or the remnants of a moat, are just randomly thrown into the middle of it because uhhh.... "scary pit is cool"? Not even getting into Urugarth which is just a giant collection of "what am I looking at"

The new one has the keep itself very obviously built into the mountains, with a VERY small open space between the mountains being used as a small fort-city complex..... like if it was actually built into the mountains and not just massively bulldozed/explosives into it like the old one HAD to have been to accommodate the sprawling, nonsense, layout it had.

I do not really understand if you are just switching the Legacy Carn Dûm and the New Carn Dûm in your reasoning.


From the vantage point of seeing the totality of both the complexes, I would say that the Legacy Carn Dûm is far more realistic on many levels, among which:

It is much more easily defendable (since it has few narrow check-points and an onion structure, while the New Carn Dûm could be normally sieged since it has classic, circular walls and almost no natural defences);
It has "sanity-sized" models and structures, which are on average half the size of the models in New Carn Dûm;
It is respecting the contiguity of landscape (which is not a problem in New Carn Dûm, being isolated). This refers both to hills and water-sources, other than game-design;
It is believable lore-wise, since Carn Dûm was not built to be a defensive fortress, but a Seat of Power where to gather armies. The defence is not in the walls, but in the Witch-King Corruption.


The only inconsistency I could find is the lack of mountains at the back of the Castle, but I guess it was not a true choice of world-building, being the landscape sitting under the Castle just green, flat or weird-brushed land.

[TesalionLortus]

Everything being set during a specific time, and looking like it should all flow because of it, is exactly the opposite of unfake. Its the definition of real. And theres a very large difference between "some guys gathering at a holdout spot WAY in the back of Rohan" and "literally next do to the capital of Gondor"

I was referring to the fact that it's a fake impression of a difference - there is none. If they do it right, so any rebuilding effort isn't right there at the border visible from the walls of MT and Pelennor. The exact same thing then.

Disagree entirely. Even in heavily weathered down ruins you can easily look at something and do "this feels real" and be able to imagine what it might have been even if you can't see the whole picture.

Yes, but you can't see the whole picture (perhaps with wooden buildings?) which was my point. Take Harloeg ruins as example - I can perfectly imagine them being remains of a palace or main keep, but the "lived in" surroundings from wood and occasional stone spaces didn't leave a trace. Perfectly real.

There is a very big difference between not feeling real because of layout, and being too small because its an MMO and everything is massively scaled down. they're really not the same.

Size matters too and just as they can have giant Lake Evendim (even through should be 10 times smaller according to "base" scale) they can have more expansive spaces, fortresses and city complexes to convey the size, in some cases, rather than everything miniature, constrained and overblown in size/height at all times. What's next? Reimagined Fornost with everything tighter that would barely fit a catapult or buildings, but even bigger towers everywhere and perfectly squared walls? Because that's so "real"? Also, differing layouts are very real. Historically, some medieval castles are actually tight and big, not a lot of space for buildings (can make a loose comparison to how Cardolan feels like) but some well-fortified cities are much bigger in scope more spacey and come in various shapes and layouts, even though they also have more fortified keeps/sections (and how these are placed may vastly differ). Variety comes a long way, you can't use "but everything is scaled down !" excuse! and want everything to be scaled down and reduced to a walled square because otherwise it's not real

The towers give the Anmgarim a pretty clean view of the town below, and to shoot arrows into it in case the outer wall gets breached. Makes sense to me.

I said they wouldn't be great architects but to design towers specifically with the idea that they'll make full use of them after gates are breached... seems idiotic and excess stone work... from military and resource standpoint... Also, so they can aim so accurately with all sorts of weapons to support these defenders, on individual basis, from so higher up? Come on. They're not snipers.

Not really. No military planner would build the complex of Carn Dum like it was back in Angmar. Its too random, too hodgepodge, its not laid out in a way that makes sense or is easily defensible. It looks ornate for the sake of being ornate. The new one looks more militarily designed because its compact nature makes it more easily defensible.

I said they're not great architects most likely, but it's a no-brainer that a tight defensible spot may be an easy chocke point... Put some spartan trolls to work and harass them as they approach from these higher side walls. Even if they storm these walls, just retread into the higher sections and repeat. All in all, my point was exactly that it wasn't a work of some amazing military and city planner. But the base basics for defence weren't so bad and that works. Also, you miss the part where that was exactly my point, the new one is too perfectly well-planned and laid out - and extra bold, with more solid tiers - which makes it far more powerful than it should be in Third Age... in terms of scope, height of these towers and resources/planning needed to be put to work here. But in terms of defences - the old one could even rival it, because it was more strategically secured with natural defenses (but said simplicity and less protected gates made it easier to outsmart too, sneak in and such, but big army would still have a serious problem though)

Everything about the landscape makes no sense. Its this massively sprawling complex, supposedly built into the mountains, but its way too open/large for it to be a believable mountain complex. The giant pit, which isn't even a moat, or the remnants of a moat, are just randomly thrown into the middle of it because uhhh.... "scary pit is cool"?

As I said, too big a size (as in ground covered) is NOT a problem, perhaps only an imagined problem. The mountains of Angmar don't have snow so isn't THAT high yet. I see no issue with some spaces and sorta canyons suitable for keeps and walled spaces. I'm pretty sure that pit is justified by lore, since necromancers doing necromancy stuff with it, and there was also a direct mention in Cardolan during the Grey Fear dialogue about Angmar's "pit" from which some dead souls can be channeled to strengthen him or something like that, so it could be that giant pit below Carn Dum, some foul creation of the Witch-king. (which is no different than lava things below Barad Dur or stuff from Agarnaith, btw...). Frankly, the reimagined version, seems more like a regular city sewer, so the thing the official Epic storyline refers too.. can't be even seen there...

The new one has the keep itself very obviously built into the mountains, with a VERY small open space between the mountains being used as a small fort-city complex..... like if it was actually built into the mountains and not just massively bulldozed/explosives into it like the old one HAD to have been to accommodate the sprawling, nonsense, layout it had.

It didn't feel as unnatural as you try to paint it as. You ride up up up to even reach the first gate, then you're constantly riding up (or down), which may be somehow clunky/rough looking at times because it was back then but it conveys the feeling of going higher and higher into an accessible portion of the mountains. The layout/idea wasn't a "nonsense." The new one isn't either, but some of the choices in it are and overall it's not what you're saying it is - it is a big perfect city built near a mountain. (And quite big open flatter space between mountains, so yeah, like dynamited, if we consider that beyond the new map borders there is still that section of mountainous terrain that takes you down to the hills of Southern Angmar). Overall, there is nothing less real about that old layout of Angmar that couldn't have been made to work with modern, more detailed and more natural looking methods (for passes and assets). To say that this new one is better and more real than the old one (even though it didn't try to do the exact same thing that old one did but better and did a different thing instead) is like saying Mt is superior to Pelargil, so let's replace Pelargil with something that looks like MT (by having some of the water drained to make space for tombs of kings) because it'll look more real, as a more lived-in city, of more impressive Numenorean origin - nevermind that Pelargil is supposed to be a port city and its OG layout is more spread out and without tiers.

From the vantage point of seeing the totality of both the complexes, I would say that the Legacy Carn Dûm is far more realistic on many levels, among which:


It is much more easily defendable (since it has few narrow check-points and an onion structure, while the New Carn Dûm could be normally sieged since it has classic, circular walls and almost no natural defences);
It has "sanity-sized" models and structures, which are on average half the size of the models in New Carn Dûm;
It is respecting the contiguity of landscape (which is not a problem in New Carn Dûm, being isolated). This refers both to hills and water-sources, other than game-design;
It is believable lore-wise, since Carn Dûm was not built to be a defensive fortress, but a Seat of Power where to gather armies. The defence is not in the walls, but in the Witch-King Corruption.

Exactly. Sometimes I like to digress a lot when I have the time with some historical references and whatnot but that's a very good solid clear-cut summary!


Oh interesting, it's funny that the old keep actually has green textures and no mountains in the back, truly they didn't even put much effort to flesh out some geographical details back then and it was just this "imposter" keep sitting at the back

[Arnand_the_Fox]

I do not really understand if you are just switching the Legacy Carn Dûm and the New Carn Dûm in your reasoning.

From the vantage point of seeing the totality of both the complexes, I would say that the Legacy Carn Dûm is far more realistic on many levels, among which:

It is much more easily defendable (since it has few narrow check-points and an onion structure, while the New Carn Dûm could be normally sieged since it has classic, circular walls and almost no natural defences);
It has "sanity-sized" models and structures, which are on average half the size of the models in New Carn Dûm;
It is respecting the contiguity of landscape (which is not a problem in New Carn Dûm, being isolated). This refers both to hills and water-sources, other than game-design;
It is believable lore-wise, since Carn Dûm was not built to be a defensive fortress, but a Seat of Power where to gather armies. The defence is not in the walls, but in the Witch-King Corruption.

The only inconsistency I could find is the lack of mountains at the back of the Castle, but I guess it was not a true choice of world-building, being the landscape sitting under the Castle just green, flat or weird-brushed land.

Nope, not confusing them at all.

The old Carn Dum complex


The new one


The old one is

• A sprawling mess across multiple mountains
• Couldn't actually be built like it is without modern digging/explosives
• Has a "city" for the Angmarim thats built awkwardly into an L shape in one corner of the facility
• Urugarth is built into this weird pit, with breeding/training grounds at the bottom that can only be reached by one bridge, making movement of troops to/from it unnatural and clumsy
• There's no real spot to actually muster the army, or any sort of siege weapons, since its all just cramped into
• Theres also no path wide enough to actually march an army through, making its use... dubious at best.
• The sheer scope of the facility would make trying to defend it a massive chore since forces would have to be spread out over such a large area

The new one on the other hand

• The main citadel is built into the mountain, and the city section is built directly in front of it in one of the few somewhat clear areas
• Looks like something that could be built without the need for modern construction methods
• The Anmarim city is actually structured something like a city
• There's enough space otuside the city for any army gathered at Carn Dum to muster itself properly
• The path is actually wide enough for Carn Dum's army to get in and out in a reasonable fashion, while still being defensible
• The reduced size of the complex makes defending it much eaiser since you don't have to spread your forces out over such a large area.

Its just much better designed by any real metric. the old one looks like its a space made for a video game by video game devs who don't really understand how things work. Like how fortresses in RPGs are often just endless rooms of traps while things like mess halls, barracks, and etc are left out. The new one actually looks like someone looked at real fort cities and went "lets make that in-game"

You can even see the basic shape of the old complex in the new one, they just compressed it down into something realistic, and removed all of that weird, nonsensical, overgrowth in front that didn't serve any logical purpose.

[Arnand_the_Fox]

snip

Unrelated but, is the spacing on those images you put on that Reddit thread about height maps the same as used on the in-game territories? I would assume so, everything seems too randomly placed for it not to be dev made sprawl, but if so, why have you said theres not enough room for Nurn on the Mordor territory? Nurn is only about as big as Gorgorth, and there seems to be more than enough space south of Gorgoroth for Nurn.

Also, what are those giant square boxes all over the Gondor and Mordor images? There's like 4 of them on the Gondor hight map image, and they look absolutely massive, yet I can't figure out what they are based on the images.

[MiniExpBounder]

Unrelated but, is the spacing on those images you put on that Reddit thread about height maps the same as used on the in-game territories? I would assume so, everything seems too randomly placed for it not to be dev made sprawl, but if so, why have you said theres not enough room for Nurn on the Mordor territory? Nurn is only about as big as Gorgorth, and there seems to be more than enough space south of Gorgoroth for Nurn.

Also, what are those giant square boxes all over the Gondor and Mordor images? There's like 4 of them on the Gondor hight map image, and they look absolutely massive, yet I can't figure out what they are based on the images.

This is not really the appropriate board where to discuss and examine that kind of pictures.
I would suggest you to look at your inbox from this very forum, you might have missed one message from the recent past.

[TesalionLortus]

The old one is

• A sprawling mess across multiple mountains

More like on the mountain (but between some larger ones/peaks), though some of the classic terrain design leaves much to be desired for - would be cool if they gave them a paint over and some gentle softening of some elevations, without effecting anything built in the spaces below. As in, could have been more believable as mountain cliffs, not just rough peaks smeared with elevation tool, but that's thanks to classic landscape design, not because the layout of the city doesn't make sense. (Also, in this world, mountains aren't exactly natural... if you've noticed. Some of them were shaped by mythological warfare of gods so they're not exactly geologically accurate and what you would expect from the real world, typically evil places like Mordor enclosure, Angband etc, OG Angmar literally played into that lore premise but apparently thinking about the lore too sometimes is bad now because "realistic!" - why can't it be both?)

• Has a "city" for the Angmarim thats built awkwardly into an L shape in one corner of the facility

It has some houses and lived in keeps everywhere, not just there, but that's the most occupied district. Nothing bad or nothing fake with a district that creates L or C or U. As I said, you need perfect city planning if some of the things being too random seem jarring to you - but they're natural.

• Urugarth is built into this weird pit, with breeding/training grounds at the bottom that can only be reached by one bridge, making movement of troops to/from it unnatural and clumsy
• There's no real spot to actually muster the army, or any sort of siege weapons, since its all just cramped into
• Theres also no path wide enough to actually march an army through, making its use... dubious at best.

You said it yourself, that the game world is more of a representation - and the gates through which these armies would come through are the exact same size as Cardolan gates or larger anyway... - so how is that a problem exactly? The armies would master (as in formations and such) in the hills below, not in the complex itself. It's not LOTR movies where a perfect column marches from the gates to the battlefield, like a perfect snake and that's it, all apparently housed at the fortress and creating that long snake at random or maybe they already stand prepared from the higher tier of Minas Morgul to the lowest like a large convoluted snake at the endgame of a snake game. You form your army in the field and they're all gathering from some different directions, not all from behind walls of your main fortress all at the same time, like it's RTS trip to destroy enemy base.

• The sheer scope of the facility would make trying to defend it a massive chore since forces would have to be spread out over such a large area

The combined size would be no bigger than some of the ancient massive cities - these were a "chore" to defend too, by this definition. Their walls were long, not constrained. From one end to another it was a long trip, same for attackers. Not all spots were besieged all at once. Wouldn't be much different with the complex and as already said, amongst mountains.. has its advantages.

Alexander the Great comes upon the city of Termessos:

When all these concessions had been made to him, he marched away to Perga, and thence set out for Phrygia, his route leading him past the city of Termessus. The people of this city are foreigners, of the Pisidian race, inhabiting a very lofty place, precipitous on every side; so that the road to the city is a difficult one. For a mountain stretches from the city as far as the road, where it suddenly stops short; and over against it rises another mountain, no less precipitous. These mountains form gates, as it were, upon the road; and it is possible for those who occupy these eminences even with a small guard to render the passage impracticable.

The new one actually looks like someone looked at real fort cities and went "lets make that in-game"

At the wrong fort cities, maybe, that would have been suitable somewhere else in the game, like maybe a city on clear elevation near the sea of Nurn - and I would love to see it then.

OG Angmar was a bit more like city of Thermessos, higher and higher (with sections, and main city at the end), and it wasn't unrealistic concept at all.







Though as I pointed out... the actual Carn Dum terrain may look a bit dated, like it's outright raw painted with the elevation tool and that's it - but the mountains surrounding Mordor are not different and they're also very sudden black elevations, or in other places of the game too, so let's not act like this is only the case in Angmar, it's in the nature of the game design, to some degree, sometimes it turns out better sometimes worse. But the concept of a sectioned city with such choke points, nested within elevations on high elevation, is perfectly valid. And yes, it is well-defensible.

[Hierona]

Its an instanced area completely separate from the normal world map. The old one is remaining the same.

I know that, but is the fortress north of the old one? Or west of the old one. It is very different and I can't believe they rebuild it in a couple of months from the ground up. Can we see it in the old area or is it out of sight?

[TesalionLortus]

I know that, but is the fortress north of the old one? Or west of the old one. It is very different and I can't believe they rebuild it in a couple of months from the ground up. Can we see it in the old area or is it out of sight?

Out of sight, hopefully. Yes, it is very different and something else entirely, you shouldn't be trying to understand it because as it stands it's not canon.

This is what happens when you come up with vastly alternate takes on different map. Some people are just confused and looking at things in disbelief, even after reading the "reimagined" word, because it's just that unprecedented. If I didn't know that from this forum and haven't seen Scenario's confirmation/explanation and first time experienced in game... I would probably stare at the screen trying to figure out what's up, not to mention the confusion of Dol Guldur towers in it. Can't remember anything like it from any game/sequal I played. Well, maybe between version 1.0 and 3.0 of a complex mod a change like that would be noticeable But yeah, not good if LOTRO devs turn into outright modders in their approach to the game, it is its own different thing where the rules are : can change entirely any time or modder may just abandon it, not that you pay for it anyway

PS: Not that it's going to happen but... I would gladly launch it into the skies, gave it a cool point over so it's not overly Angmar and fix some of the tower situation, and then dropped somewhere in Nurn for later use Or for Angmar Besieged map and the tale of the Witch King's defeat, though some narrow mountain passes would still need to be added to reflect OG terrain. But if that's pristine version and shares some of the layout, then I could see how some of these city district collapsed/were destroyed by water leakage after whatever destruction the good guys brought to it which would result in a more watery legacy version. (wink wink or maybe MiniExpBounder can do that someday... reflect the OG terrain more accurately, remove some unneeded walls, add the missing parts of the map from the OG version like mountain passes, Urugarth and showcase a Pristine Carn Dum during the Witch'king's reign )