How do you feel about post dislikes and like based "rating" system?

[Curuer_Bauglir]

I like the idea of having your vote be visible to other forum users, if they do end up implementing a voting system. If a system like this was implemented, I do like the Reddit feature that collapses post within a thread once they reach a certain amount of downvotes. It doesn't make them disappear, so people can still read them should they choose. I don't post here a ton, but do jump into threads when I have a strong opinion about something. I mostly use the forums as a way to get info about what is happening with the game, such as the rep accels disappearing. I would've never known if I didn't visit the forums. Something like that would help people cut to the meat of a post and avoid the sometimes very long arguments than can take up pages of a thread between just two people.

Ultimately, I don't know how much a voting system would work anyway. More people might visit the forum, but if they feel the quality of posts or atmosphere hasn't improved, they won't stay long. There are some users here who are on all the time and comment and argue in every single thread. A voting system isn't going to stop those people from submitting dozens and dozens of posts per day. They want their opinions heard and probably like to debate every topic. Being downvoted isn't going to discourage those types of people. I think that gets lost in the alleged "toxicity" of the forums. It's not just that some feel the forums are filled with negative people who complain about the game. Some feel that posts often turn into a private IM session between the same group of users. I think people have found other mediums for which to discuss LOTRO and communicate their opinions if they don't like the atmosphere of the forums.

[auximenes]

I'm not a big fan of downvotes on forums like this, but giving upvote and other more neutral options I think could be useful. There are many things I read which I generally agree with but I don't have anything to add to the discussion so I don't post anything. Having an upvote option lets me show some support quickly and easily.

[DavidmeetHal]

This was just a bit of theorycrafting chat in the middle of a livestream since weighing features do exist under the hood of the new forums and we could give it a try if we wanted to, but this is not a matter of "Cordovan wants to..." But, since people want to discuss it here:

The main thing it could help address is to give the wider community an opportunity to weigh in lightly without having to commit to the stress and anxiety of defending themselves from often intense responses by a small but loud group of people with a differing opinion who consider themselves the majority. The fallout of not agreeing with the opinions of regulars can be tough sometimes. It's true that only a small percentage of players post but far more read, and this is probably the biggest reason a majority read but don't post. Many players who otherwise disagree with an idea tell us privately they don't reply due to the difficulties they would face if they tried to speak, and it can lead to people believing "players want X" when in fact it is maybe a dozen or so frequent and loud posters representing their opinion every time the topic is raised on the forums. Ideally people who enjoy the forums would be willing to listen to others without engaging in negative behavior, but we've seen too often how things actually go, both on the part of people who are more supportive of ideas and those more opposed. Instead of posting on the forums, these folks get their feedback to us elsewhere. I frequently get Twitter/Discord/Forum Private messages along the lines of, "I don't dare disagree with 'the forums' on this, but here's what I and everyone I know actually thinks:".

By adding a no-impact unlike/downvote, it gives people an additional perspective. If a post has twelve people across a six page thread insisting that "everyone" wants X but the post has 50 likes and 2000 dislikes, it could be informative, and it is not the kind of information you would get by the current way things work. As people have stated, there are of course a bunch of reasons NOT to do an up/downvote as well. I was a big opponent of the Reputation system, getting rid of it was one of my first orders of business when I took over forum management here. If anything like this was ever brought to the new forums it would have to work differently from that old system. But I don't want to simply not consider it due to the issues caused by a different and very outdated system from a decade-plus ago.

Would a different system be able to help counter the belief that six people who post a hundred times over the course of a month about an issue represent the majority? Maybe, maybe not, but it's at least worth thinking about, since nothing is actually being proposed at the moment.

I'm sorry Cord, but I'm against a system like this in the strongest possible sense.

[Gilean-EU]

I like the idea of upvote/downvote for the reasons Cordovan stated, but also if we could be sure that 1) One individual forum user could leave only one vote, not more and 2) only those who have been forum users 24/48 hours or so can vote.

[Elebraen]

Ultimately, I don't know how much a voting system would work anyway. More people might visit the forum, but if they feel the quality of posts or atmosphere hasn't improved, they won't stay long. There are some users here who are on all the time and comment and argue in every single thread. A voting system isn't going to stop those people from submitting dozens and dozens of posts per day. They want their opinions heard and probably like to debate every topic. Being downvoted isn't going to discourage those types of people. I think that gets lost in the alleged "toxicity" of the forums. It's not just that some feel the forums are filled with negative people who complain about the game. Some feel that posts often turn into a private IM session between the same group of users. I think people have found other mediums for which to discuss LOTRO and communicate their opinions if they don't like the atmosphere of the forums.

You NAILED it. Thank you.

Rather than a like or dislike thumb on individual posts, I would prefer to see a simple survey. Can be anonymous, maybe throw in a couple of mithril coins for participating in a long one. Do you like female dwarves? Y/N. Would you like to see more lore history recreations like Sarn Ford? Y/N

Throw that onto the weekly coupon page and a lot more regularly visiting people will see the survey. A lot of surveys have a comment section at the end of them if you want to say more about it... anonymously, if the devs really want to have good, honest feedback that is not socially biased. And the survey question is bound to generate a lengthy forum discussion on it, lol. Enter the forum discussion at your own risk

[LabadalofDorlomin]

I thought we had evolved beyond this in the years since it was removed....

Maybe watch this episode of the Orville before you make a decision on unstructured democracy.

The Orville - Majority Rule

Fiction with insight.

[TesalionLortus]

There are some users here who are on all the time and comment and argue in every single thread. A voting system isn't going to stop those people from submitting dozens and dozens of posts per day. They want their opinions heard and probably like to debate every topic. Being downvoted isn't going to discourage those types of people. I think that gets lost in the alleged "toxicity" of the forums. It's not just that some feel the forums are filled with negative people who complain about the game. Some feel that posts often turn into a private IM session between the same group of users. I think people have found other mediums for which to discuss LOTRO and communicate their opinions if they don't like the atmosphere of the forums.

There is this sentiment that was born across the online space in recent times (with the coming of the new "safe space" generation and propagated by the rise of modern social media) that discussion and some sort of argument/intellectual engagement between the two or three parties = toxic, offensive, troll, negative, bad, ban it. Even when it's not and all parties engaged are actually 100% fine, respectful towards each other in their own ways and otherwise just passionate individuals willing to put some of their time into such discussions. Usually, they don't break any rules either, their only offense being that they've spoken or engaged. Even if you don't like what they say, or if they're seemingly too negative or bitter about something, that doesn't mean they're toxic and should be gone from public view (and you're free to put people on your ignore anyway...). My only observation is that true toxic (so actually toxic and far from nice) is when people start calling other posters SSG fanboys and throw less-than-subtle offences at SSG - I think that's something to moderate a bit more harshly but Cord shouldn't really punish anyone for just... taking part in mutual discussion, even if that's a one-on-one it's perfectly OK. It IS a forum, after all. Go and look up the genesis of this word, seriously.

I wasn't much active for years before I decided to "break the ice" but that would be due to my complete unawareness of certain sections of the forum (because of how buried they are) and the General section, which was mostly what I paid attention to at the time, gets dominated by some... typical debacles which are always at the top (lag, game dead, ssg destroyed it, nerf stat X, decrease stat Y - for the hundredth time ) While some of the other sections, like Adventuring, are very confusing what can be found there, and hard to figure out they have some cool things, and we lack some categorization for those "cool" things, so hopefully Cord takes care of that one and maybe we get specific sections/subforums for story discussion, landscape design, Bill's music etc. Even at reddit, the prevailing sentiment seems to be that Adventuring is the most interesting part of the forum some of those reddit users actually pay attention to, so would be nice to make this more of a heart of the forum, right there with General and much better categorized, not just an afterthought category "here goes whatever" (and half of the story, landscape design, adventuring matters usually goes into General anyway, as things stand, since Adventuring isn't really outright stated to serve those specific purposes right now and it's more of a "tribal secret knowledge" of the experienced posters to put something under Adventuring - but put something under General and it may get lost... dominated by you know what).

I would also love the Bug/Prevailing issues section of some kind (though do point it out players are supposed to report all bugs though the official bug report system regardless and maybe make it clear it's not a section to talk about lag :P ). Because we do end up discussing or asking about some bugs, changes, or issues with the game anyway, or providing feedback that's a bit more detailed/spontaneous than the one that is being provided through the bug queue - and there is no category for it, so it's always scattered between General/Adventuring/other sections. Furthermore, it's kinda annoying when players are talking about some issues and a dev appears with a plead that we should report through bug queue, assuming we haven't done that, which maybe they're justified to mention, just in case, since that's not clear whether we've done that or not. But annoying nevertheless. So by having a section that explicitly states how to report bugs but at the same time allowing to post regarding some bugs and issues in this section, you make it clear that when I post in this section I do this for a reason, not because I'm ignorant and haven't submitted any of those bugs. Sounds very useful.

Rather than a like or dislike thumb on individual posts, I would prefer to see a simple survey. Can be anonymous, maybe throw in a couple of mithril coins for participating in a long one. Do you like female dwarves? Y/N. Would you like to see more lore history recreations like Sarn Ford? Y/N

This really sounds like a better way of including feedback loop from people who are "afraid of" posting because "there are some people who might post something" (without doing anything wrong, actually) that they don't want to see posting because they tire of their activity - and yet they are choosing not to post, so then, how can anything change if they can't provide their two cents through their own activity, regardless of what others who are active may say? If they did, it would be different, more views the better. Even if all "unpopular" active posters who dare to say things were banned, which is apparently the undying wish of some redditors regarding this forum, who is going to be left then? The very people who don't feel like engaging with different POVs at all? I don't know, this is kinda self-contradictory, in my mind

But yeah, the survey is something everyone could participate in, actually. Only the questions would need to be better and very detailed, somewhat. It's not enough to ask whether I support female dwarves - you gotta ask for specifics of how I support them. I may support female dwarves and even female avatars but I may not support soft-skinned midget female dwarves with small beards. This is also the fault of any like system, if you wanna use it for some sort of feedback loop - it's not really detailed. Someone liked something in the heat of the moment, ok, but no idea what are the specifics of their support if they don't say anything.

("See all those random upvotes from completely clueless randos?! Now we NEED to put it in the game.")

THIS. I like to think the devs have their brains but at the same time there is something about such "hype" that's simply human and tempting. I don't know how any of it functions under the hood but the implementation of blue water (and how it was executed) due to numerous bug reports that stated "water isn't blue enough" well... it really shook my confidence. That's the sort of empty feedback that you gotta look at the bigger picture or some kind of specifics and arguments, not just at numbers and go "oh well, I guess we gotta try it" (and with a half-assed attempt at that, that self-evidently didn't look any good and had me 100% convinced it was just a bug - ideally you shouldn't need any posters to point out self-evident things like that). Sounds like the devs don't need yet another feedback loop where mere clicks and number appearances may convince them to do something because "that's what people want!" but actually butchers the game in some way. Avoid the hype temptation, so to speak...

[Pharone]

Over the course of a couple decades of playing MMOs and being an active member of their forums, I can whole heartedly agree with Cordovan is saying about a small group of forum members with loud voices sounding like the majority most of the time.

There are some people that spend more time on the forums than in the game the forum represents. They "play" the forums, and they look for any post that in any way threatens "their vision" of what the game is supposed to be and shoot it down immediately with an air of authority as if they are somehow a voice for the developers.

If anything, I think that giving the average forum user a way to weigh in on the topic of threads is a good thing. The more you allow your users to respond with out being the target of reprisal for doing so is a good thing in my opinion.

Be aware though that these forum warriors don't play fair. They will have multiple accounts created solely for the purpose of adding more weight to their opinions.

[Halphast]

If you plan to use forum likes/dislikes to gauge "what players like" and "what players want" you have to ask some important questions:

What percent of LotRO players have a forum account? Are some types of players over-represented?

What percent of forum users actually log in? Are some types of players over-represented?

What percent of active users read suggestions and use the like/dislike feature? etc.

[Arnenna]

I certainly hope they do not switch to such a system. Having moderated forums quite intensely (though a long time ago), it was very easy to see a pattern where the functions are used to swing toward bias.

False readings from false data. People in favour of an opinion use the function to shoot down anyone of the opposite view, and vice versa.


Besides that, we don't need it here. If someone posts feedback on the forums here, opposition is very fast to come forward within the thread.

[istvana]

I agree entirely with what Cordovan said.

[Ryvick]

Over the course of a couple decades of playing MMOs and being an active member of their forums, I can whole heartedly agree with Cordovan is saying about a small group of forum members with loud voices sounding like the majority most of the time.

There are some people that spend more time on the forums than in the game the forum represents. They "play" the forums, and they look for any post that in any way threatens "their vision" of what the game is supposed to be and shoot it down immediately with an air of authority as if they are somehow a voice for the developers.

If anything, I think that giving the average forum user a way to weigh in on the topic of threads is a good thing. The more you allow your users to respond with out being the target of reprisal for doing so is a good thing in my opinion.

Be aware though that these forum warriors don't play fair. They will have multiple accounts created solely for the purpose of adding more weight to their opinions.

There is a big difference between an idea that is suggested for the sake of change and an idea that would add to the game. I, and I would say the majority of others, "jump" on ideas that we know hold no tangible betterment of the game and indeed would detract from our OWN enjoyment of the game were they to be implemented (And some that are just dumbass ideas). Current Male/Female dwarf depiction is not just a game trope and is led by the quite clear definition in the books. To alter that would reduce numerous players enjoyment and immersion in the game world. That would be an example that offers no tangible benefit and would only serve to diminish the game. Others would be "Flying Mounts", FFA or World PvP, Friendly Orcs and more.

Also I hardly think anyone is using multiple accounts to support their dislike of an idea. If anything I have seen people using multiple accounts to try to support bad ideas. And don't get me started on the people who blow in from nowhere then flood the suggestion forum with a dozen ideas ranging from "Completely re-write your game engine from scratch" to "Lets do away with leveling altogether" and then mysteriously disappear a week later only to show up again in a year to re-post the same nonsense or 'bump' their completely unresponded to posts.

[DavidmeetHal]

. And don't get me started on the people who blow in from nowhere then flood the suggestion forum with a dozen ideas ranging from "Completely re-write your game engine from scratch" to "Lets do away with leveling altogether" and then mysteriously disappear a week later only to show up again in a year to re-post the same nonsense or 'bump' their completely unresponded to posts.

Oh those people are something else!

[Thurinuor]

PRO for this feature! Upvotes and downvotes help to find useful postings and makes it harder for spammers to annoy people.

[Fadil]

You NAILED it. Thank you.

Rather than a like or dislike thumb on individual posts, I would prefer to see a simple survey. Can be anonymous, maybe throw in a couple of mithril coins for participating in a long one. Do you like female dwarves? Y/N. Would you like to see more lore history recreations like Sarn Ford? Y/N

Throw that onto the weekly coupon page and a lot more regularly visiting people will see the survey. A lot of surveys have a comment section at the end of them if you want to say more about it... anonymously, if the devs really want to have good, honest feedback that is not socially biased. And the survey question is bound to generate a lengthy forum discussion on it, lol. Enter the forum discussion at your own risk

This is a very good idea. It would be a poll seen by much more players than the small number who use these forums.

[Fadil]

Ultimately, I don't know how much a voting system would work anyway. More people might visit the forum, but if they feel the quality of posts or atmosphere hasn't improved, they won't stay long. There are some users here who are on all the time and comment and argue in every single thread. A voting system isn't going to stop those people from submitting dozens and dozens of posts per day. They want their opinions heard and probably like to debate every topic. Being downvoted isn't going to discourage those types of people. I think that gets lost in the alleged "toxicity" of the forums. It's not just that some feel the forums are filled with negative people who complain about the game. Some feel that posts often turn into a private IM session between the same group of users.

/agreed 100%.
I dont think an upvote/ downvote system will change that.

[Pharone]

... I, and I would say the majority of others, ...

This is the kind of statement that likes/dislikes/upvote/downvotes works against. Let the users say if they agree with you or not. You simply saying they agree with you, is just you assuming you are the majority. You may be the majority, but how about letting the actual user base confirm that for you instead of just assuming it.

Also I hardly think anyone is using multiple accounts to support their dislike of an idea.

You must not have ever been part of the EverQuest community. This is a regular practice over there. You see "new" forum accounts all the time, and they generally parrot the same points of view of very vocal individuals that argue on every single thread. It's way more common than you probably realize, and it is very destructive and toxic behavior.

And don't get me started on the people who blow in from nowhere then flood the suggestion forum with a dozen ideas ranging from "Completely re-write your game engine from scratch" to "Lets do away with leveling altogether" and then mysteriously disappear a week later only to show up again in a year to re-post the same nonsense or 'bump' their completely unresponded to posts.

I hate that too. This goes right along with what I was saying about disgruntled ex-customers that troll forums for games they no longer play just because they are hateful individuals.

/agreed 100%.
I dont think an upvote/ downvote system will change that.

I feel like an upvote/downvote system will allow the customer base to over talk the vocal minority that plague the forums. If you have six people that post on every thread arguing with anything anybody ever says, that's going to be six votes (up or down). When you add in the one hundred or so other customers (for whom never or rarely post/reply) that come along and upvote/downvote a thread/response, then it helps drown out those six bad apples.

[paintpixie]

...Be aware though that these forum warriors don't play fair. They will have multiple accounts created solely for the purpose of adding more weight to their opinions.

Yes, this has always been a problem here.
And I'm sure it's not special for this forum. But it's always been very obvious here, maybe because of the smaller community.

To be honest, I'm not sure what the need is for a game company to even host their own forums, these days. They could just as easily link to an "official reddit" or something similar.
These forums have been neglected for a long time. Even the site itself seems very out-of-date, with lots of features that have been removed over the years, etc.
I admire them for thinking of revamping things. It could be really nice. But the more that I think about it, the more I wonder about it. I guess, with them hosting it, they do have more control over the content. But is that necessarily better?
Personally, I'd rather have a forum tied to the game than use reddit. But if the forum is just going to BE reddit, why not just link to the reddit, close the forums, and call it a day?
(I'm not saying that it would be like reddit, I guess I'm just speculating about things a bit.)

[Arnenna]

Also I hardly think anyone is using multiple accounts to support their dislike of an idea.

Oh, but they do, and something like this will make them do it all the more.

That said, I tend to not bother much with the forums at all nowadays, only stepping in occasionally to add a point here and there. Nobody can give good old fashioned, honest feedback here anymore without being labelled with some sort of name. So may as well run with this and weed out anyone honest that's left. Keep it all unicorns and rainbows so to speak.

[TesalionLortus]

This is the kind of statement that likes/dislikes/upvote/downvotes works against. Let the users say if they agree with you or not. You simply saying they agree with you, is just you assuming you are the majority. You may be the majority, but how about letting the actual user base confirm that for you instead of just assuming it.

The very idea that users hitting likes or dislikes can "confirm" whether someone belongs to the "majority" or not is flawed IMO and the exact reason why it just feels like just adding more confusion on the devs side of things, rather than be equally open to all feedback and ideas. Because I think it is safe to assume there is no "majority" to be found here. This forum, reddit, or discord, we're all probably minority and a fracture - more vocally active but a fracture - of a player base. It really depends on how "strong willed" and practical the devs are.

In general likes seem ok to me (not dislikes though) but I'm not sure how strong willed the devs are in such situations, so still have doubts. They sure are strong willed whenever something is unquestionably desired and can't be even argued against but, well, they are simply limited by time/resources, so then it's a no brainer to be strong willed and ignore that. But when you get this seemingly energetic response from 500+ players through likes, now that's a bit different and may seem tempting to give it more value, like "that's what people need" and not even stop to ask the question does that make sense, does that make the game better or worse, does that inconvenience other players, and is this really worth it for the entire player populace as a whole. It's one thing to add a cosmetic item of Dwayne based on community phenomenon (completely optional feature) and it's another to redesign something, refrain from ever considering something, or change something based on community "majority" / likes/ dislikes/ whatever, when said community may not exactly be reflective of the real player base as a whole (not to mention things like a potential new player/customer you may get if you play your cards right, as a business).

[Pontin_Finnberry]

The idea of an Upvote/downvote system is something i'd like, not everyone will agree as some don't already, but in my opinion i think it would help, and agree with what Cordovan said about such a thing.

[DoRonRon]

Clearly, given my contributions, it would be silly of me to think I was speaking for anyone else. I thrive on digging into the game's systems. The motivations of it's players and devs. All the way up to board level - mostly for my own amusement. Not sure if that screenplay should be a thriller or a farce. It does have Luxury Yachts and a sanctioned Oligarch so maybe the former but also... nvm.

I did step in on another thread suggesting an addition source for enhancements in all innocence. But if taken up it would make my easy game even easier, no one want's that!
I try to be good but there are all too many innocent requests made that players make without the wider knowledge of how others are in place to abuse it.

That request to tweak a skill in some way when others are happy and rely on it working the way it does.

The coming changes to power and mastery a host of muscle memory lessons for many of us and key spammers as ever unconcerned. What's all the fuss about?

Context of another viewpoint.

[DoRonRon]

Give us a Bug forum with SC/Dev only OP and have a bump. Perhaps. But if so few are going to see the more nuanced of bugs they just won't get a look in like the current system, we would still get to point out the workarounds or implications and cut out some unnecessary work. Dwayne would never have been removed.

Frankly, what is so wrong with views to denote interest, too many cliques with the keys to the city for my liking. Some times I would like an "unview" and have some of my life returned.

Handing the Royal Sceptre to a certain Discord Server. Or the moderator of the Official one or are there two still? Same with the report post deal, direct a few friends to add weight.

I just realised, I don't even see a report button, where is it?

[Fadil]

I feel like an upvote/downvote system will allow the customer base to over talk the vocal minority that plague the forums. If you have six people that post on every thread arguing with anything anybody ever says, that's going to be six votes (up or down). When you add in the one hundred or so other customers (for whom never or rarely post/reply) that come along and upvote/downvote a thread/response, then it helps drown out those six bad apples.

Yeah, you certainly have a point there!

It's just that from a personal pov I really dislike downvotes.
Allow upvoting/ support, sure.
I have some experience with Reddit communities and with their moderation. The downvote function can really be abused.
I was one of the moderators of a political sub and people from other subs just flooded our sub with downvotes, without ever engaging other than that.
And the truth is: it upsets certain people when they post something and 200 people downvote it.:P

We disabled the downvote option, and only allowed people to upvote.
That worked very well. People were able to show support for certain posts, and trolls stopped bothering.

[DoRonRon]

Ah that ikle triangle. ^

I did say I don't comment on the visuals, not my sphere...

I was never under any assumption we had free speech on the forums but the suggestion to actively deny it by players seems such a poor direction to go if that's the opportunity people are seeking to exploit.