Gondor rework - some landscape suggestions

[k40rne]

I think this is worth remembering. I've seen complaining about some of the decorations in Gondor over the years, but I trust the artists and the worldbuilders. I obviously skew more towards Words than Pictures, but it all looks like Middle-earth to me.

MoL

So you really are just against fixing bad rushed designs when the assets just weren't available?

[k40rne]

Gondor always looked hurried and lazy-builded. With Gondor they made assets consolidation so obvious that they made their game look cheap (not that Senario would had done any different) . Its a shame for Gondor because they nailed it with Rohan which Rohan even beat Peter Jacksons Rohan for sure but in Gondor comparison they didn't even try. Gondor also was more organized kingdom than Rohan which should have had the same armor on the units for each Gondor sub-faction (except Dol Amroth), they didn't tried to make new look for Gondorian Soldiers rather than reskin Rohan ones.

the rest of Gondor World-building as well and its not just "My OpInIoN" its an opinion of everyone who has a sense of art and watching Devs stating "its your opinion" and blah blah and quotes like " art is unique for each of us" and any kind of excuse of their laziness only make Devs look uneducated and its a shame for themselves to be honest.

I wish SSG could thing more out of the box because till now they are acting like its still 2004.

Exactly, there is a hell of a lot of competition these days for gaming, including mods for games like Bannerlords




& reworked old games like




So this old Turbine attitude of "only we know best" is only going to drive off more players (I truly thought you guys had gotten beyond this).

We are here to see the Tolkien world recreated & putting some cheap imitation out of a land that doesn't meet the standards of the rest of the world you created, while saying beauty is subjective is patently ridiculous.
SSG need to admit they made a mess of the first regions of Gondor & rectify it, telling us we don't understand art & only expect some kind of conformity is an extremely patronizing way to deal with this issue. There are standards (created by you) so you should adhere to them, and this is not modern art.

[MadeofLions]

So you really are just against fixing bad rushed designs when the assets just weren't available?

I'm not going to keep on arguing the point, because clearly I disagree that these are "bad rushed designs." I know the people who made them, and I know how much time and effort went into making them. I get that you don't like the way it was put together - there's no need to be rude about it.

MoL

[SingularityNow]

Doesn't bother me! It had to go somewhere!

MoL

I respect the fact that you couldn't say anything else, but the fact you knew what I was alluding to says enough to me.

It had to go somewhere... maybe. But that somewhere should've been the fourth age. It didn't need to be dropped carelessly in the middle of Rohan creating this monster eyesore and impasse. It could've been a portal only to the future and if it really needed to be somehow grounded to the landscape there could've been some cheeky little portal tied to some random pile of stones in the the field written on it in Rhorroric "New development, opening in 4017", easily ignored by anyone who cared to do so.

[Pontin_Finnberry]

Art is subjective, for me I never really liked the design of Gondor's architecture in LOTRO as i always imaged something else in my mind, as i'm sure many reader have, but i always appreciated the work that went into making Gondor what it is by worldbuilding team, it is grand and huge, and nice to walk around in the cities/town, its wonderful on its own, I don't mind the giant wings.
Gondor's architecture in game is not bad design at all, its just not for me and what I imagine, but wouldn't want see it changed, cause some put a lot of work into it. The part I do like is the Tower of Ecthelion, that room is just stunning.

[TesalionLortus]

Exactly, there is a hell of a lot of competition these days for gaming, including mods for games like Bannerlords

& reworked old games like

So this old Turbine attitude of "only we know best" is only going to drive off more players (I truly thought you guys had gotten beyond this).

I love all of these but this is also something that brings a tear in my eye, always - because most mods in existence, even if they come up with some unique additions, almost always have their basis... in PJ's version. Apart from some lone lesser known mods/submods (probably incomplete), LOTRO is pretty much the only one with a truly unique approach... and that's just makes it all more saddening when certain parts of this world, the only one we have, suffer from some such bad apples. Not many but a few. Not saying such things gotta be fixed ASAP but one would hope the devs, who also love this world, could take note of and understand some of our visual plights. We don't say those things for no reason or just because we have different tastes. I really never suggested anything super revolutionary different.

For real just give me the tools and i ll make Gondor for free for you!!!!

Well, I can also sign up, if we are offering our souls I can make very slight (and even more slight, as to not disappoint Phantion) tweaks from this thread, I can add more detail to Fornost and Angmar's Carn Dum and I wonder whether people would still be saying they "don't feel real at all", I can even realign some walls so they blend together better, and so on, the little things the devs -understandably - usually don't have the time for

I know the people who made them, and I know how much time and effort went into making them.

Would you also be against a small retexture like suggested under the third picture of the top post? Makes me wonder, don't you feel like it might be a bad apple piece of a texture in otherwise crisp nice and "real" image? And that's no Gondor's design work - since this particular spot was simply "passed on" from the Annuminas texture, a black smear that just... didn't age well, just looks off-putting

[TesalionLortus]

but wouldn't want see it changed, cause some put a lot of work into it.

Which is not what was ever suggested. Nobody wants to see it changed, just slightly slightly tweak. Maybe some of you guys wouldn't even notice the change but some of us are visual eagles - who may play on bigger screens and all that, on top of that - so we notice some off-ness

I know some (or just someone : ) derailed this thread with their wishes to completely redesign Gondor but THAT was never the original suggestion.

[Pharone]

I'm not going to keep on arguing the point, because clearly I disagree that these are "bad rushed designs." I know the people who made them, and I know how much time and effort went into making them. I get that you don't like the way it was put together - there's no need to be rude about it.

MoL

You are one hundred percent correct here. A couple of the individuals in this thread are way out of line with their comments and personal attacks on the SSG developers/designers. Good on you for not just out right banning or suspending their forum accounts already.

I think SSG is more rude for giving us such low standard aspect in this part of the ingame environment after they get PAID for it than the criticism you guys get from this forum.


Btw i don't even recall to update their graphic engine or anything else. I understand that is hard to make new aspects and graphics . What i call though is a respect for your own game you create.

For real just give me the tools and i ll make Gondor for free for you!!!!

If you are wanting to influence the direction of design in the game, this is whole heartedly NOT the way to go about doing it. Insulting the developers, calling them boneheads, and basically telling them that you are the only one that has enough artistic sense to say what is and is not acceptable, is a sure fire way to NEVER have anything you say on the forums truly read by the company. You have essentially put a big red stamp across your account that reads "ignore me". Seriously. What were you thinking?

A couple of you in this thread really should apologize to the devs. I mean, do I find things in the game that upset me? Yes from time to time I do. I don't come to the forums to call out the devs and let them know how much I think they suck because of it. That's just not a smart thing to ever do. Just saying... sheesh.

[TesalionLortus]

A couple of you in this thread really should apologize to the devs. I mean, do I find things in the game that upset me? Yes from time to time I do. I don't come to the forums to call out the devs and let them know how much I think they suck because of it. That's just not a smart thing to ever do. Just saying... sheesh.

I think everyone here - except Aleziana - were very civil.

Well, if you find the things that upset you, I think you *should* come to the forum and share them (as long as it's constructive criticism, which we had plenty of for 1 page straight in this thread, for example, so not just empty "devs suck!" screams).

[grallonsphere]

You can count me in the camp of those who despise those wingsy things. What an eyesore they are! Not to mention how hazardous they are from a structural standpoint. Any gale worth its while would topple most of those towers due to Coriolis forces.

If the wing symbol has to be kept, sparse it out and tone it down. It could be used as bas-relief, or in friezes; crenellations could be shaped like small joined wings; the stonework could be filigreed with wing motifs. Oh, but that would require higher resolution graphics...

In any case, my larger hope for this Gondor Update is that they reworks the housing in Belfalas. It's atrocious. And while we're at it, why not create townhouses in Minas Tirith (which IS gorgeous - partly because the wings are almost absent)?; Pocket spaces hidden behind a loading screen? It wouldn't have any outside grounds but we could have a cozy interior similar to the dwarven housing?

I suppose it's too much to hope for.

[zipfile]

Minas Tirith, Dol Amroth and Minas Morgul looked like someone made a really good replica out of LEGOs of those respective locations in the books.

Then a toddler ran over the model.

Case & point: Most of Gondor's cities look like a mess, there are numerous areas where buildings are hovering off the ground, you can see two-three "houses" (or whatever it is) clipped into one another, the "rubble" that has missing (or worse, flickering) textures etc.
It doesn't look like it was made to a standard. It looks rushed and cluttered.

Best comparison I can give in Annuminas.
Yes, there are parts where some buildings appear to sprout out of nothing, but for the most part, you can see things clearly, attention was given a lot more to placement and not to make the city look cluttered.

[TesalionLortus]

Best comparison I can give in Annuminas.
Yes, there are parts where some buildings appear to sprout out of nothing, but for the most part, you can see things clearly, attention was given a lot more to placement and not to make the city look cluttered.

I think.. partly some of that is because some of that clutter is intentional due to "pompous" Gondorian style, and partly because originally MT was supposed to be larger but they couldn't make it so due to... performance concerns. But I like what we have. Still impressive from the distance or when running through its streets. But something like Fornost, for example, is far more spacey and feels more like your standard cityscape (but still with some tier situation going on) and I like it for it too. Though it suffers from old-school lack of detail with its empty walls, plus the walls immediately adjacent to the mountain should be turned into a large structure, like a hall or temple-like building, since they don't make sense as "walls" if they're not needed from that side.

[Aleziana]

Ok I ll end my discussion here.

1) I agree with OP for Gondor Rework suggestions.

2) My previous post is just objective feedback. Rohan is like 9/10 and Gondor is 2/10.

The reason I m angry is because of the human side perspective. Developers accept all cheers when they do something right and all happy but when the don't do something right instead of saying something like " we had limited time frame/resources/motivation/imagination for a specific project they keep supporting their bad work talking bad to their clients like they are idiots ( at least this is what I get from them).

P.s just because devs don't straitly say "bad" words doesn't mean they don't talk bad to their clients.

Minas Tirith, Dol Amroth and Minas Morgul looked like someone made a really good replica out of LEGOs of those respective locations in the books.

Then a toddler ran over the model.

Case & point: Most of Gondor's cities look like a mess, there are numerous areas where buildings are hovering off the ground, you can see two-three "houses" (or whatever it is) clipped into one another, the "rubble" that has missing (or worse, flickering) textures etc.
It doesn't look like it was made to a standard. It looks rushed and cluttered.

Best comparison I can give in Annuminas.
Yes, there are parts where some buildings appear to sprout out of nothing, but for the most part, you can see things clearly, attention was given a lot more to placement and not to make the city look cluttered.

+1 about everything you Said.

[Phantion]

Of course aesthetics is subjective, it's basically tautological.

I like those Byzantine designs you speak of too, and I also like the new Carn Dum as well as the old one. I appreciate many different styles, but the problem with those wings is they look oversized and cartoonish & the reliefs of Elendil in Dol Amroth need better texturing at the very least.

I can guarantee you if they redesigned it today, they'd use many more assets, because they have more available now.

Yeah . . . I kind of like the gigantic swan wings (*and others have the right to not like them at all, etc. ). Yeah, some of those Elendil heads could use more of a worn look to them - and DA could use some more of those "Swan Knight" style statues they added in MT.

I think I generally agree with TesalionLortus and you on the need for some touches, perhaps. But still, I like the bigger, gaudier look - and I never really thought of them as "cartoony."

I also very much agree with MoL that that ship set sail quite a while ago. I think improving by - adding - things is generally a better approach than removing things.

It's all in good fun anyway

Cheers!

[Scenario]

I appreciate that everyone in this thread is passionate about LOTRO and holds many things dearly (and not so dearly) regarding the decisions made by the team over the years when it comes to constructing Middle-earth. That said, there is absolutely zero reason or cause for that passion to turn into attacks, insults and general rudeness towards any other member of this community (dev or player). There are many ways in which an opinion can be expressed constructively without attacking those who do the work or those who enjoy it. Also, there is no reason to use such language towards people whom you disagree with.

[TesalionLortus]

Yeah . . . I kind of like the gigantic swan wings (*and others have the right to not like them at all, etc. ). Yeah, some of those Elendil heads could use more of a worn look to them - and DA could use some more of those "Swan Knight" style statues they added in MT.

I think I generally agree with TesalionLortus and you on the need for some touches, perhaps. But still, I like the bigger, gaudier look - and I never really thought of them as "cartoony."

I also very much agree with MoL that that ship set sail quite a while ago. I think improving by - adding - things is generally a better approach than removing things.

I like the bigger sizes too, there are many examples where they work, and I don't exactly think they're just cartoony and silly (though I sometimes use "words" to describe some of the less ideal examples of them! sorry!). Western Gondor was like one of my favorite places of the game, I really enjoyed that journey and vibe. There was always something "wrong" underneath but it's not like it detracted from the journey, plus we still haven't seen MT or the likes, these other places they can come up with today, so that's a lower bar back then in my mind too. And at the time I used a laptop, smaller screen, worse color/contrast, so you kinda... miss things, they aren't as much in your face - so there is that. I might be wrong but I guess the "cartoony" moniker in question refers to how some of them may be just too much weight to be convincing. I pretty much never had this problem with the old Enedwaith/Rohan "wings"

I think the ship didn't sail anywhere though, as much as Elrond's didn't say no to a group of decorators and corridor builders Like, I would really understand the "better don't touch" approach if it required edits to whole models, but my guess is, from what may be observed, that the wings are like a standalone piece of a puzzle - resize just slightly if common sense says so, or adjust slightly 1 or 2 cm left/right/up/down, and maybe would feel much better? and not cover up some windows in some cases? Just.. gentle touches. Stylistically, I think, some of the sizes when all cluttered together actually detract from one another, rather than give exposition to the center piece. But still, first and foremost my main issue is believability, so when new players run into these spaces nothing sticks out on their screenshots... in this 2020+ era. So it doesn't end up conveying a "Potato" of a game, to use the infamous word that players tend to use to refer to avatars (which, frankly, I think aren't as bad as people say... if with color improvements through something like reshade and more sharpness)

I appreciate that everyone in this thread is passionate about LOTRO and holds many things dearly (and not so dearly) regarding the decisions made by the team over the years when it comes to constructing Middle-earth. That said, there is absolutely zero reason or cause for that passion to turn into attacks, insults and general rudeness towards any other member of this community (dev or player). There are many ways in which an opinion can be expressed constructively without attacking those who do the work or those who enjoy it. Also, there is no reason to use such language towards people whom you disagree with.

Thanks Scenario! I appreciate you reading our whining. Well, I tried to be civil but it turned out as always when people jump in to announce their years long disappointments or disappointments with the other people's disappointments. But no need to focus on a few frustrated impolite remarks, let's be constructive and open-minded!

[k40rne]

Art is subjective, for me I never really liked the design of Gondor's architecture in LOTRO as i always imaged something else in my mind, as i'm sure many reader have, but i always appreciated the work that went into making Gondor what it is by worldbuilding team, it is grand and huge, and nice to walk around in the cities/town, its wonderful on its own, I don't mind the giant wings.
Gondor's architecture in game is not bad design at all, its just not for me and what I imagine, but wouldn't want see it changed, cause some put a lot of work into it. The part I do like is the Tower of Ecthelion, that room is just stunning.

I have no issue with Minas Tirith (especially the Tower of Ecthelion) & I love Taur Druadan (one of my favourite zones among many) Osgiliath looks stunning, and even enjoy the Beacon Hills. I'm not calling all of Gondor poorly designed, I'm saying the details need cleaning up only, especially in the West & Central regions & the Western East Gondor. No one is detracting from those designers, it's about resources & time at the time clearly weren't available.

I'm not going to keep on arguing the point, because clearly I disagree that these are "bad rushed designs." I know the people who made them, and I know how much time and effort went into making them. I get that you don't like the way it was put together - there's no need to be rude about it.

I don't think I'm being Rude MOL, I've been both complimentary & critical. I'm just giving an honest assessment. The problem is too many people get attached to things & then it becomes difficult to correct. It's not about anyone's feelings, its just about representing Gondor as it should be realised (Tolkien's vision), and the opportunity is now here to rectify it & it would be a shame to waste it.

[k40rne]

I love all of these but this is also something that brings a tear in my eye, always - because most mods in existence, even if they come up with some unique additions, almost always have their basis... in PJ's version. Apart from some lone lesser known mods/submods (probably incomplete), LOTRO is pretty much the only one with a truly unique approach... and that's just makes it all more saddening when certain parts of this world, the only one we have, suffer from some such bad apples. Not many but a few. Not saying such things gotta be fixed ASAP but one would hope the devs, who also love this world, could take note of and understand some of our visual plights. We don't say those things for no reason or just because we have different tastes. I really never suggested anything super revolutionary different.

Yeah, the Arda Bannerlord one is trying to use Tolkien's own representation (he'll probably have to borrow from Lotro too though in some areas). I've also seen the umm Minecraft giant Arda something as well & that is not PJ's vision either. And agreed on the bad apple principle. I just don't get it, there are constant changes to zones, why is changing this so emotionally charged? I used to paint models and some of my earlier works were quite poor, a natural progression in skill is normal, it ishouldn't be detracting or demeaning to the artist.

Well, I can also sign up, if we are offering our souls I can make very slight (and even more slight, as to not disappoint Phantion) tweaks from this thread, I can add more detail to Fornost and Angmar's Carn Dum and I wonder whether people would still be saying they "don't feel real at all", I can even realign some walls so they blend together better, and so on, the little things the devs -understandably - usually don't have the time for

There are some good demos from that guy Macbeth & others on design, using world builder tools, importing heightmaps etc

[k40rne]

You are one hundred percent correct here. A couple of the individuals in this thread are way out of line with their comments and personal attacks on the SSG developers/designers. Good on you for not just out right banning or suspending their forum accounts already.


If you are wanting to influence the direction of design in the game, this is whole heartedly NOT the way to go about doing it. Insulting the developers, calling them boneheads, and basically telling them that you are the only one that has enough artistic sense to say what is and is not acceptable, is a sure fire way to NEVER have anything you say on the forums truly read by the company. You have essentially put a big red stamp across your account that reads "ignore me". Seriously. What were you thinking?

A couple of you in this thread really should apologize to the devs. I mean, do I find things in the game that upset me? Yes from time to time I do. I don't come to the forums to call out the devs and let them know how much I think they suck because of it. That's just not a smart thing to ever do. Just saying... sheesh.

I have always been fair in my criticism and never said anyone "sucked". I've certainly never attacked them personally.

I think they do a great job for the most part, but I did not like the old attitude management used to have (where they ignored the users, a collaborative environment is wise & it appeared that's what they had moved towards). That's not even about the devs, but saying people should be banned for voicing their opinion when it was a bit harsh, but not overly nasty is absolutely absurd. And furthermore this game has had hundreds of artistic changes, Bree, Thorin's Hall North side, even Rivendell & Moria, to say Gondor shouldn't be tweaked makes little sense.

[TesalionLortus]

There are some good demos from that guy Macbeth & others on design, using world builder tools, importing heightmaps etc

But you mean that guy from Bannerlord right? Not LOTRO by any chance... xD. Because I was always curious how LOTRO "world-builder" tool looks like. I mean, like, sure, it'll have some convoluted functions and import functions from other formats and software, but I mean once you actually have all the current assets and skins loaded, and landmasses set - makes me wonder how the workflow and placement looks like. Is this anything like Battle for Middle Earth editor by any chance, or less convoluted, or worse? I don't think the devs ever showcased any part of that, unless I missed it somewhere! I only know that there must be some buttons or image titles like "Monster Generation" and such because I've seen their textures in game files lol. Which is interesting, does that mean there is lotro worldbuilder bundled in each of our game copy?

Speaking of Bannerlord... I would still need to fully enjoy vanilla first... did they add those *banners* yet? LOL.

And furthermore this game has had hundreds of artistic changes, Bree, Thorin's Hall North side, even Rivendell & Moria, to say Gondor shouldn't be tweaked makes little sense.

Maybe he didn't mean anything specific by it because was very vague after all, but it certainly did push some of our buttons. But yeah, there are a lot of things that get revaluated in the game as time goes by, and as long as these are gentle things and improvements there is really no reason to say ultimate no. (And new CD is far more than... gentle... It's more drastic and I would have said dividing if it wasn't just my vocal voice - but that clearly doesn't mean there can't be more of "silent" players enjoying this world who may find it equally inconsistent and/or hella confusing, especially that it's not limited to instances like Erebor ones but there is main story going into there and horse connection - well, I do know of at least one such "silent" player IRL, who may think that way)

So, in context of the wings. Say, ok, if it's really such a crucial element for some reason, don't even change any sizes, but at least make it look more real and attach some of them even more solidly now that the game has moved even further in its development and put its bar even higher (though I have no idea how you could make these thinner spires with 4x wings look more real without resizing anything, but well, maybe, somewhat... maybe - but without moving them around myself I can't really tell, can just say a dubious maybe :P)

[k40rne]

Yeah . . . I kind of like the gigantic swan wings (*and others have the right to not like them at all, etc. ). Yeah, some of those Elendil heads could use more of a worn look to them - and DA could use some more of those "Swan Knight" style statues they added in MT.

I think I generally agree with TesalionLortus and you on the need for some touches, perhaps. But still, I like the bigger, gaudier look - and I never really thought of them as "cartoony."

I also very much agree with MoL that that ship set sail quite a while ago. I think improving by - adding - things is generally a better approach than removing things.

It's all in good fun anyway

Cheers!

I'm glad we finally found some consensus.

Also, there have been significant changes artistically throughout the history of this game, both omissions and additions, (multiple towns have had many incarnations) but ok, I understand people do get attached to things, but we should at least be able to have an intelligent conversation about it without people claiming the artist will be upset. I have been an artist myself & I know full well with time and perspective my art only gets better as I hone my skills & have access to greater tools.

We should respect an honest critique that points out both positives and negatives.

I like the assets for the most part, what I think is they are overly saturated and misued in many cases as TesalionLortus has keenly demonstrated. Had there been more assets available at the time, I have no doubt they would have not been used in the same manner & it'd surely have been more aesthetically pleasing. The one exception to this is the Elendil relief's need better texturing.

I love the Gondorian look of old Numenor, in Ost Dunhoth, Ost Celebrant & that Isildur session play instance (Garth Lotheg). I love the look of Annuminas too, it is well done. S Ithilien looks great, Beacon Hills, N Ithilien, Osgiliath & the summer version of Minas Tirith looks especially good. I don't agree with what Alezania said about Minas Tirith or Minas Morgul, I enjoyed them greatly. Dol Amroth has many beautiful aspects to it & is a lovely city, only the detailing ruins its glorious image.

Also attacking devs is stupid, the only thing I criticised was old managment style which i'm sure anyone playing for a long time would recognise was not great. I enjoy Scenario's work & am happy he does these casual strolls now, their communication style is vastly improved. And I do respect MOL too, I am eager to navigate his epic stories once again.

But you mean that guy from Bannerlord right? Not LOTRO by any chance... xD. Because I was always curious how LOTRO "world-builder" tool looks like. I mean, like, sure, it'll have some convoluted functions and import functions from other formats and software, but I mean once you actually have all the current assets and skins loaded, and landmasses set - makes me wonder how the workflow and placement looks like. Is this anything like Battle for Middle Earth editor by any chance, or less convoluted, or worse? I don't think the devs ever showcased any part of that, unless I missed it somewhere! I only know that there must be some buttons or image titles like "Monster Generation" and such because I've seen their textures in game files lol. Which is interesting, does that mean there is lotro worldbuilder bundled in each of our game copy?

Speaking of Bannerlord... I would still need to fully enjoy vanilla first... did they add those *banners* yet? LOL.

Yes, Mount & Blade II: Bannerlords, but their tools do seem to overlap: World Machine, World Creator & Gaia , as far as heightmaps. I think Lotro World Builder may be proprietary, although it can be a bit confusing, with so many similarly named tools. I found the Bannerlords mod tool is extremely advanced & quite fun to play with.

Maybe he didn't mean anything specific by it because was very vague after all, but it certainly did push some of our buttons. But yeah, there are a lot of things that get revaluated in the game as time goes by, and as long as these are gentle things and improvements there is really no reason to say ultimate no. (And new CD is far more than... gentle... It's more drastic and I would have said dividing if it wasn't just my vocal voice - but that clearly doesn't mean there can't be more of "silent" players enjoying this world who may find it equally inconsistent and/or hella confusing, especially that it's not limited to instances like Erebor ones but there is main story going into there and horse connection - well, I do know of at least one such "silent" player IRL, who may think that way)

Yeah, it just came off as very tin-eared though, but of course any changes to the game world that is by all accounts a 'work of art' - both visually & auditorily, should be applied with reason & perspective.

So, in context of the wings. Say, ok, if it's really such a crucial element for some reason, don't even change any sizes, but at least make it look more real and attach some of them even more solidly now that the game has moved even further in its development and put its bar even higher (though I have no idea how you could make these thinner spires with 4x wings look more real without resizing anything, but well, maybe, somewhat... maybe - but without moving them around myself I can't really tell, can just say a dubious maybe :P)

The issue is more proportionality, because it looks great on a very high tower, maybe it would be ok to saturate them (Byzantine style) if you had the size of ones on lower towers in proportion to their height. I like the new Carn Dum ( I do see it more as how it would have been in it's 2nd age glory though) & have no issue with this Rohan settlement people complain about. Those issues come down to attachment for the most part.

[TesalionLortus]

The issue is more proportionality, because it looks great on a very high tower, maybe it would be ok to saturate them (Byzantine style) if you had the size of ones on lower towers in proportion to their height.

No idea how would that feel but maybe a valid solution could be to upscale towers to make them wider, not downscale wings, especially the spire thin ones. But then certain landmarks like the main tower of Pelargil would need to become higher, as to not become even more overshadowed. Though that could be a nice effect, if it was even higher. We can just wonder which is interesting but yeah, this is something best to figure out in practice

I like the new Carn Dum ( I do see it more as how it would have been in it's 2nd age glory though)

Well, yes and no for me, so a bit similar. Precisely because it feels that way, it its full glory (not second though - it was third age), so I can appreciate that - such glory - visually, purely as a designer's work separate from the context - though if that was the actual case... then I would gladly see more of matching square towers to match the rest of Guldur pieces used, to highlight the point that these complete stone square towers could later become these toppled, incomplete ones from OG CD. Plus, if we assume "feels like CD in its glory", then those round towers feel a bit mismatching/oversaturated here too, kinda like the situation with the wings. But then again - it's not supposed to be that at all, which is why it has round towers corresponding to present day Angmar - yet narratively does not feel like it belongs in present day with these massive Guldur pieces, and it's overall in such a good state that might easily overshadow Dol Guldur as a "lived in" strong functional space (even trough Dol Guldur is amazing and very powerful! it couldn't have been better as a castle space). So that's why it won't feel organically good to me when participating in that story. Seems like the first time in LOTRO where I would rather just... read the quest text alone + voices/amazing Bill's music, lol. And then just visit "Galadhon" as a separate tour supposed to be older days under WK

[k40rne]

No idea how would that feel but maybe a valid solution could be to upscale towers to make them wider, not downscale wings, especially the spire thin ones. But then certain landmarks like the main tower of Pelargil would need to become higher, as to not become even more overshadowed. Though that could be a nice effect, if it was even higher. We can just wonder which is interesting but yeah, this is something best to figure out in practice

Yeah, rising towers could definitely work too.

Well, yes and no for me, so a bit similar. Precisely because it feels that way, it its full glory (not second though - it was third age), so I can appreciate that - such glory - visually, purely as a designer's work separate from the context - though if that was the actual case... then I would gladly see more of matching square towers to match the rest of Guldur pieces used, to highlight the point that these complete stone square towers could later become these toppled, incomplete ones from OG CD. Plus, if we assume "feels like CD in its glory", then those round towers feel a bit mismatching/oversaturated here too, kinda like the situation with the wings. But then again - it's not supposed to be that at all, which is why it has round towers corresponding to present day Angmar - yet narratively does not feel like it belongs in present day with these massive Guldur pieces, and it's overall in such a good state that might easily overshadow Dol Guldur as a "lived in" strong functional space (even trough Dol Guldur is amazing and very powerful! it couldn't have been better as a castle space). So that's why it won't feel organically good to me when participating in that story. Seems like the first time in LOTRO where I would rather just... read the quest text alone + voices/amazing Bill's music, lol. And then just visit "Galadhon" as a separate tour supposed to be older days under WK

Ahh yeah, Early to mid 3rd Age 1300 or so.

[Celebrawn]

I respect the fact that you couldn't say anything else, but the fact you knew what I was alluding to says enough to me.

What else could you have possibly been referring to? Lol.

[Pontin_Finnberry]

Which is not what was ever suggested. Nobody wants to see it changed, just slightly slightly tweak. Maybe some of you guys wouldn't even notice the change but some of us are visual eagles - who may play on bigger screens and all that, on top of that - so we notice some off-ness

I know some (or just someone : ) derailed this thread with their wishes to completely redesign Gondor but THAT was never the original suggestion.

Right but its what I got from other posters, and giving my opinion on Gondor.