Upcoming Changes to PvMP!

[tetrasodium]

Worse? is that even possible?

Yes, non-boss NPC spiders are one of the most pathetic mobs I've come across in the entire game for on-level challenge outside of the newbie areas. They attack very slowly similar to trolls, but hit similar to a goblin that would be getting multiple little attacks off in that period. Because of the slow attack, tiny damage, and virtual nonexistant wack to the induction bar their attacks cause virtually any induction skill can be cast with an NPC spider beating on you. NPC spiders have a stat debuff (vitality or agility usually), a poison resist debuff, and very rarely a fear/snare sort of thing like hatchlings proc. Basically they fight like they belong in the shire.

[NYSEguy1970]

Jalessa/Orion

Please...I'll give you cake too....

can you post some of the Weaver class changes next? Alphabetically Weavers are last and get last billing in everything...its kinda like being the kid w/the last name starting w/"Z" in school...last...last...last... .

pretty please....

[Sezneg]

I did not, realistically, have time to do a second pass on the class when everyone needed the same amount of attention.

It is just simply not right to have defilers still chucking gourdes for 200 damage in the current DPS race environment.

[Lilliandra]

Please remember that Defilers got some love with patches after Moria launch:

Naturally I remember the bug fixes, reverting Defiler Fear to it's pre-MoM state, and the increase to our HoTs in Patch 2 (which brought them a little more in line with the pre-MoM state). I was very grateful for these changes and expressed my appreciation that they were pushed through so soon.

When some people expressed their discontent at the small boost to Defiler HoTs in this thread you responded with:

I had the ability to push some fixes and initial tweaks in, so I made use of that limited opportunity. Rest assured, I'm still working on the things I have mentioned earlier for the next book update.

If the small update to Defiler HoTs was 'inital tweaks', when are we likely to see further ones coming seeing as they are not going to be ready for the next book update?

Curse of Deadly Sorrows had it's armour debuff value increased.

Of course this bug fix was much appreciated, however this only rectified the debuff being incorrectly lowered in MoM instead of remaining at a similar level to it's pre-MoM state. I understand that the armour debuff from Reavers Sunder is now being altered - giving it an actual increase to the pre-MoM value. The Defilers debuff remains at a similar level to it's pre-MoM state. You stated:

I'll try to do a debuff pass/scrub for MP skills, should time permit.

Obviously this has been done to some extent as Reaver's Sunder is being increased. Were Defilers left out of the debuff pass/scrub? Or will the R7 armour debuff be similarly increased sometime after Book 7 is released?

Efflorescense stacks with other heal over time effects from the Defiler.

Another bug fix, which again was appreciated.

Fertile Slime, Fungal Spores, and Fungal Bloom were increased.

The small increases to Defiler HoTs were appreciated by many of us, especially as they were pushed through so quickly. However people have posted many times since that the Defiler heals are still in great need of a buff. And I have told people time and time again that the updates to our HoTs were 'initial tweaks', and to be patient and wait for 'the next book update' when the remaining tweaks will be implemented (as per your post quoted above - which was made in direct response to a thread titled "Defiler Healing" regarding the increased HoTs in patch 2). Yet it now seems that the small HoT boosts are it as far as Defiler healing updates go, with no further tweaks in Book 7 as your post initially suggested. This is naturally going to cause some at least *some* unrest, especially when people were waiting for fixes that haven't eventuated.

(And by the way, the Plague Gourd effect is listed incorrectly - the effect referred to is the debuff.)

Thank you for clarifying this, and as always, this bug fix is much appreciated.

I did not, realistically, have time to do a second pass on the class

The boost Defilers received to their HoT's in patch 2 was much appreciated, and it has helped a little with the current state of Defiler healing. However, as many have expressed, it is nowhere near enough. While these things have to be carefully weighed up and balanced, I believe that even something as small as returning Fungal Bloom's initial heal to it's pre-MoM value would have been cause for at least a little excitement. Instead the Defilers class-specific Book 7 updates are more like a list of bug fixes we would expect to see in a mid-book patch. While I really do appreciate broken skills being fixed, are bug fixes all the class-specific changes Defilers have to look forward to? Defilers were desperately awaiting their improved heals, their improved damage, their improved ANYTHING... class-specific skill updates that would help them once more perform effectively in their role as Primary Healer... something a little more helpful than just bug fixes.

The Reavers list is full of things that are considerably useful to them, as evidenced by several replies by people who play reavers that indicate that they are EXCITED about their changes. Where are the replies by Defilers showing THEIR excitement? There is very little feedback regarding the Defiler updates because there is very little to be excited about. I imagine it is also because there are few Defilers left in the game that even care anymore. Of course it is good to know that some of our bugged skills will actually be working as intended come Book 7, I just think people were generally hoping for something more than bug fixes. Especially when so many people have pointed out that Defilers (and Weavers) are in the most need of attention at the moment.

While on the subject of bugs, are we likely to see fixes for the following any time soon:
- Fell Restoration not being affected by Enhanced Slime?
- Other classes slows removing the fire debuff when Sticky Feet is traited?
- BA's Fire DoT's removing Defilers and vice-versa?

when everyone needed the same amount of attention.

Actually I think many would agree that Defilers (and Weavers) in their current state need MORE attention than other creep classes (and certainly more than just bug fixes for skills that got broken when MoM was released).

However this aside, I realise that you have a lot to do and limited time to do it in, so this leads me to ask WHEN Defilers are going to get a 'second pass' to address their healing/damage issues? Some of us are a tad masochistic and will wait it out, as long as we know that there is light at the end of the tunnel.

[Griffy]

Yes, non-boss NPC spiders are one of the most pathetic mobs I've come across in the entire game for on-level challenge outside of the newbie areas. They attack very slowly similar to trolls, but hit similar to a goblin that would be getting multiple little attacks off in that period. Because of the slow attack, tiny damage, and virtual nonexistant wack to the induction bar their attacks cause virtually any induction skill can be cast with an NPC spider beating on you. NPC spiders have a stat debuff (vitality or agility usually), a poison resist debuff, and very rarely a fear/snare sort of thing like hatchlings proc. Basically they fight like they belong in the shire.

Til you get 2 or 3 on ya. Say goodbye inductions. My hunter was finishing her Ered Luin spider/zeal virtue in that den of spiders (even found a sharder hiding in there.) Pop one and come to find they don't come single! Fortunately at 33, she was able to pop them quick enough and had focus for non-induction stuff. Yay for hunter melee as well.

Even Boss spiders seem to be push-overs (heehee, Oh to tip a giant spider over. when my burg gets Trip.) Where's the pic of that warden soloing Bogbereth? My warg witnessed the Ettenmoor's (nemesis?) spider often smooshed by Freeps for some fast tokens.

[tetrasodium]

Til you get 2 or 3 on ya. Say goodbye inductions. My hunter was finishing her Ered Luin spider/zeal virtue in that den of spiders (even found a sharder hiding in there.) Pop one and come to find they don't come single! Fortunately at 33, she was able to pop them quick enough and had focus for non-induction stuff. Yay for hunter melee as well.

Even Boss spiders seem to be push-overs (heehee, Oh to tip a giant spider over. when my burg gets Trip.) Where's the pic of that warden soloing Bogbereth? My warg witnessed the Ettenmoor's (nemesis?) spider often smooshed by Freeps for some fast tokens.

Yea 2-3 can interrupt inductions if they are long ones, but my RK is still able to get off short inductions with 2-3 spiders that would be impossible with almost anything else (too many induction knockback's or death). Boss spiders are generally rather pathetic compared to other boss class mobs yea, the one in Skumfil can be fairly nasty though. Spiders aren't swarm class mobs and shouldn't require 2-3 of them to put up enough of a fight to make people resort to non-long induction group/non-tanking skills they wouldn't be able to use on almost any other mob.

[TheCrusher]

DEFILER
-Anointing of the Slick Flesh now has a 1 minute cooldown.
-Blessing of Darkness will now be affected by the Enhanced Slime trait.
-The damage over time effect of Headbreaker and Fire Gourd will now stack with other players using the skill on the same target.
-The following effects from Defiler skills are no longer curable: Fire Gourd (damage over time) and Plague Gourd (damage over time).
-Curse of the Melancholic Heart has been changed to Fear resistance type.
-Curse of Deadly Sorrows has been changed to Disease resistance type.
-Fixed a bug where Fast Lob was not reducing inductions of gourd skills correctly.
-Enhanced Slime will now properly reduce threat from healing.
[/FONT]

Defilers still need more!

Think of our DPS! I want to hit harder than my level 39 ministrel, PLEASE!

[Moop29]

It never seemed like it was a problem to me.

Whether it is a fix or not, it isn't needed.

The problem has nothing to do with anything outside the moors. The problem is that from GV to TR, every inch of ground is covered by bears that stun, slow, armour rend and do better dps than spiders. Then there's a nice gank group of them between TR rez and TA. I know a guy who killed 6 creeps fairly quickly pre-Moria by just kiting them all around in the bears

[Ionie]

with this, on bk7, a coordinated 2~3 reavers can easily blow up any freep of any classes if they're not on focused healing.

You're right, the Book 7 changes do mean exactly that -- which is how it should always have been in the first place. As the premiere single-target creep DPSers in the Moors, two or three reavers coordinating on the same target should be able to "easily blow up any freep of any classes if they're not on focused healing." Why is this concept so revolutionary to you?

[elderlygamer]

Much like 2-3 of *any* freep class can blow up any creep class, often even through healing?

Actually a hunter can easily blow up most creep classes, with or without healing.

To any freeps complaining about 2-3 creeps being able to kill a single freep: how big does the easy button have to be? Do you need someone to press it for you too?

[Jalessa]

- Fell Restoration not being affected by Enhanced Slime?
- BA's Fire DoT's removing Defilers and vice-versa?

Both missing notes.

I fixed Fell Restoration a long time ago (after Patch 2), it should be fixed for Book 7...it was missing from the Enhanced Slime trait fix note.

The Fire Gourd's damage over time will not be overwritten by the Blackarrow's Flaming Arrow.

[Redbeaver]

are you really comparing reaver damage to hunter? seriously? hehe... come on now, dont pretend.


not to mention, any one person SHOULD get owned by 3 enemies... if not the 3 enemies are horrible players or the single person needs a nerf/fix bad : )

not my intention to compare, but the point is the biggest damage dealer freepside is hunter and creepside is reaver. i'll gladlly observe any argumentation to refute this.

im not saying i want a person to survive 3 enemies jumping on him, but to rip one apart faster than u can say "what was that all about?", can be a little frustrating.

3 of any of those classes could easily destroy a WL is less than 30 seconds.

could destroy, yes. easily destroy? depends on the WL rank and skill. in 30 seconds, without clobber, 3 of myself mustve cutting it close.

maybe im a bad champ, but trust me, some creeps are tough as nail.

are you joking? 3 capts or champs will turn a creep to dust in a few seconds. You might not have noticed but warleaders can no longer get off heals with more then 1 person hitting them, you don't need interupts anymore.

that i didnt kno that, so i dont need clobber?

odd, when i spar killdozer if i dont clobber at all, i need over 5 minutes to deplete his morale. all the heals seems to be ok while im hitting him with everything i got.

and 3 champ can turn a creep to dust in a few seconds, i agree, but is it always the case? a 5k+ morale creep with high evade buff or break-free-from-cc skill can run (albeit being snared) towards his raid while having 3+ melee classes hitting him and he does not go down in "a few seconds".

I also missed our "huge" DPS buff. They are upping DS which didnt move with moria for some reason. Please name a champ skill that didng scale at all from 50 to 60. The only thing you could possibly mean would be our stackign bleeds...like salt the wound for guards...or...actaully almost every single bleed in the game.

yes, i meant DoT included. including the ones that will be incurable come bk7. and the improved laceration that will stack with other players.

Reavers actually can be out DPS'd by hutners, RK's champs, minstrels, loremasters AND captains at this point. It's insane when you think about it. Hunters say everything is fine, non-hutners say jusdt hutners are the problems, it's simply not true.

I'm not gonna say champs are the problem, that is also simply not true, but it goes faaar beyond hunters, the rampant CC, the massive ranged and tactical damage. This cannot be pinned on one class. Now are these the fixes I would have chosen? no. Do champs sort of get the short end of the stick? A little bit. Sorry Dav but there is also nothing new there but if we have to throw an entire side into the fire or one class....

so other than hunters, rampant CC, and massive ranged and tact damage (all comes from ranged classes btw), what else is wrong again? u dont see me complaining about creeps getting their extra morale back, do u? its the extra reaver buff that kinda scare me.

putting 2 and 2 together, it's:
a. ranged classes are freakin powerful.
b. one way to fix that is to buff creeps' best DPS class.
=
wth?

But the end is not here, Most champs in the moors seem to have a Li for a 26s+ sprint, combine that with SI and you a very dangerous weapon. And of course they will still be doing this under the cover of massive ranged DPS and enormous heals if anyone actually choses to heal in the moors.

i dont have an LI with sprint+ duration. id rather have extra DoT tick and ferv damage or anything else. 15sec is enough to do our job.

the 3-min cooldown trait is a blessing tho.

./end rant But im tired of everyone blaming hunters, early on I may have made the same mistake but at this point it should be obvious there is much moer wrong. Just go into the moors and rip apart a few dozens creeps adn get this out of your system

-Morrdan/Weaver/Pre

i never blame ONLY hunters.

i blame the whole array of freep ranged classes. namely, hunters, LM, and minst.

take those 3 out of the moors and creeps will have a FIELD TRIP over freeps dead bodies.




gah... ok ill leave the forum and start the genocide again.

but please dont focus fire on me. i need to hit 3 stars to compare to slither....... xD

[Redbeaver]

You're right, the Book 7 changes do mean exactly that -- which is how it should always have been in the first place. As the premiere single-target creep DPSers in the Moors, two or three reavers coordinating on the same target should be able to "easily blow up any freep of any classes if they're not on focused healing." Why is this concept so revolutionary to you?

ok, so lets drop the word "blow up".

see... the concept of succesfully killing a person when there's 3 of u and 1 of them... EASILY... is a concept that should be applied to both sides.

please.

that i agree.


but, for either hunter or reaver, to kill somebody WITH EASE, in LESS than 5 seconds... that's a little too much dont u think?

Actually a hunter can easily blow up most creep classes, with or without healing.

To any freeps complaining about 2-3 creeps being able to kill a single freep: how big does the easy button have to be? Do you need someone to press it for you too?

please dont interpret my intention as "OK for hunter to do it, but creeps can't do it.", coz that would be stupid.

i have an issue that hunters can do it.

but if reavers can do it too, then for me, it's like adding more issues more than fixing the current issue.

is that clear enough for you people?


if u get past that, here's further points:
the buff to reaver is GOOD. good for them. but as a CHAMP, i'm getting worried. and thus im hoping comes bk7, champ would have SOME kind of extra to thwart reaver's charge. call it as another melee class envy

i'm not saying the reaver buff is WRONG. i'm saying it's INSANE, because if that comes around with the rest of the updates AND hunters are still as nuclear as ever..... then the rest of us could be cannon fodder.



damnit, stop grouping me with those people that wants an easy button. learn to read AND comprehend.

[BIZL]

The problem has nothing to do with anything outside the moors. The problem is that from GV to TR, every inch of ground is covered by bears that stun, slow, armour rend and do better dps than spiders. Then there's a nice gank group of them between TR rez and TA. I know a guy who killed 6 creeps fairly quickly pre-Moria by just kiting them all around in the bears

they also do better DPS then wargs warleaders and defilers.


-Morrdan/Weaver/Pre

[Niblik]

This hasn't been noted yet, but the bear's debuff has been drop-kicked....Chuck Norris style.

Take that, you rotten bears!!!!

Maybe my spider actually has a chance against the bears now.

[Gorbag_Rotmakr]

The Fire Gourd's damage over time will not be overwritten by the Blackarrow's Flaming Arrow.

Good news, though hopefully the reverse is also true. One big reason I rarely was able to utilize Fire Gourd much in the past was that it overwrote the better DoT BAs had.

Defilers will be a damage class yet! <flexes ropey little arms>

[Gareth420]

One thing i just do not understand is why does Turbine go one way or the other but never try the middle? I mean they buffed freeps made them overpowered accoridng to some and now they are turning around and severly overpowering creeps.

Cant we just one time get it where everything is balanced? I mean all anyone is going to do now is roll a creep. I mean why not creeps will be dominating after this everything uncurable while everything we dop is curable. Our npcs nerfed etc etc.

Ive seen some creeps in here that provded a very simple way of doing things. I mean I know creep side a lot will be happy of course you would be you now can stack dots we cannot cure anything anymore. Id just like once they try and really balance things instead of overpowering one side then overpowering the other all the time.

[elderlygamer]

and now they are turning around and severly overpowering creeps.

What forum are YOU reading?

[Gareth420]

What forum are YOU reading?

I was reading the changes please do not tell me after all those buffs and more to come you guys still arent happy? I mean what the heck do they have to do? Now pots are useless for freeps nothing can be cured meanwhile everything now we throw at creeps wil be negated with a pot. On top of that the passive and traited versions of the crit reduction thing will make devistating crits a thing of the past also.

Just seems like they could once (just once) not swing wildy from one side to other but balance things in the middle. Not to mention you guys get immunity to CC with a click also I mean what exactly does the creep side want? A button that instanly kills every freep even those not in the moors?

[TheCrusher]

I was reading the changes please do not tell me after all those buffs and more to come you guys still arent happy? I mean what the heck do they have to do? Now pots are useless for freeps nothing can be cured meanwhile everything now we throw at creeps wil be negated with a pot. On top of that the passive and traited versions of the crit reduction thing will make devistating crits a thing of the past also.

Just seems like they could once (just once) not swing wildy from one side to other but balance things in the middle. Not to mention you guys get immunity to CC with a click also I mean what exactly does the creep side want? A button that instanly kills every freep even those not in the moors?

I see 2 classes getting bug fixes and a few nice things. How the hell can you call this overpowering creeps?

LOL! Immunity to CC with a click?! Where have I seen that before?!

[Gareth420]

I see 2 classes getting bug fixes and a few nice things. How the hell can you call this overpowering creeps?

LOL! Immunity to CC with a click?! Where have I seen that before?!

They have yet to put up the other classes buffs but they will be there. If you read you can get a clicky that gives you 60s of immunity to root/stun etc. They will be adding a ton more this is just the tip of the iceberg.

Not that I really care too much I mean being a hunter this wont affect me as much as noone else will be out there. They are making so unless you have hunter dps you will be useless out there.

Lucky I am a hunter but I feel for the other people.

Also just a side note can you please stop with the sarcastic smart aleck comments? Try to discuss things like an adult without the LOL!!!OMGEVENTY!!! stuff ok? If you were having a discussion face to face with someone you wouldnt be sniping at them and laughing etc. This is a forum yes but still respect me I'll respect you.

[TheCrusher]

They have yet to put up the other classes buffs but they will be there. If you read you can get a clicky that gives you 60s of immunity to root/stun etc. They will be adding a ton more this is just the tip of the iceberg.

Not that I really care too much I mean being a hunter this wont affect me as much as noone else will be out there. They are making so unless you have hunter dps you will be useless out there.

Lucky I am a hunter but I feel for the other people.

I sure hope they have more in store for the defiler than just bug fixes.

[Sezneg]

Both missing notes.

I fixed Fell Restoration a long time ago (after Patch 2), it should be fixed for Book 7...it was missing from the Enhanced Slime trait fix note.

The Fire Gourd's damage over time will not be overwritten by the Blackarrow's Flaming Arrow.

And they still do what... 250 max non-crit damage?

[gildhur]

Also just a side note can you please stop with the sarcastic smart aleck comments? Try to discuss things like an adult without the LOL!!!OMGEVENTY!!! stuff ok? If you were having a discussion face to face with someone you wouldnt be sniping at them and laughing etc. This is a forum yes but still respect me I'll respect you.

YOU're trying to make people be RATIONAL?! Comedy. Once you stop complaining about Creeps being OMGWTFOP, maybe then we can have a rational dialogue.

I remember you saying months ago before MoM that Creeps were going to be 10k elites that could solo a keep. Still waiting to see that one...

[Brongdha]

The Fire Gourd's damage over time will not be overwritten by the Blackarrow's Flaming Arrow.

Any chance you could make it so that stronger blackarrow fire DoTs don't get overwritten by weaker ones...? Maybe make it kinda like how hope tokens work so when there's a +5 hope on and someone uses a +4 hope, after the +5 hope expires the +4 hope shows and continues on its timer.

It gets annoying when I have a DoT doing 170 damage per click on a freep then another blackarrow come along and throws a DoT for 103 damage per click on.