Names in Middle-Earth, Quick Guide

[lf2536]

Here is a question for Berephon or anyone who might happen to know.

What is the difference, if any, between the Sindarin pronunciations of "ú" and "û"?

I'm going to hazard a guess and say it's a difference in stress on the U in that particular word.

[Cleitanious]

Here is a question for Berephon or anyone who might happen to know.

What is the difference, if any, between the Sindarin pronunciations of "ú" and "û"?

ú is short, like for example, say Dun.
û is long, like for example say Dune.

[Inkling]

ú is short, like for example, say Dun.
û is long, like for example say Dune.

That's a good example. Just to be clear, he is not referring to the pronunciation as "dyoon," but the more recent variant "doon." I think Tolkien specifically states in an appendix that none of his u's are pronounced "yoo."

[lastalliance]

ú is short, like for example, say Dun.
û is long, like for example say Dune.

Thank you. Though I was under the impression that a Sindarin "u" is never pronounced as our short "u". Pronouncing the dún in Dúnedain as "duhn" just doesn't sound right. And if your examples of pronunciation are correct, how is a normal non-diacritical "u" pronounced?

[Cleitanious]

That's a good example. Just to be clear, he is not referring to the pronunciation as "dyoon," but the more recent variant "doon." I think Tolkien specifically states in an appendix that none of his u's are pronounced "yoo."

Thank you. Though I was under the impression that a Sindarin "u" is never pronounced as our short "u". Pronouncing the dún in Dúnedain as "duhn" just doesn't sound right. And if your examples of pronunciation are correct, how is a normal non-diacritical "u" pronounced?

I am getting my information from RoTK Appendix E, page 438.

'In Sindarin long vowels in stressed monosyllables are marked with the circumflex, since they tended in such cases to be specifically prolonged; So in Dun comared to Dunedain.'

In "Dúnedain" you pronounce the u like you do in "lune". It's not like "duhn". That's actually the exact example given in the text. You say "duhn" when the u is accented 'û'.

I'm sorry my previous example was reversed.

Originally Posted by Cleitanious
ú is short, like for example, say Dun.
û is long, like for example say Dune.

I should have said...
û is short, like for example, say Dhun.
ú is long, like for example say Dune.

[lastalliance]

I am getting my information from RoTK Appendix E, page 438.


In "Dúnedain" you pronounce the u like you do in "lune". It's not like "duhn". That's actually the exact example given in the text. You say "duhn" when the u is accented 'û'.

I'm sorry my previous example was reversed.

I should have said...
û is short, like for example, say Dhun.
ú is long, like for example say Dune.

Ah, many thanks! That makes very much sense.

So "u" = long u, "ú" = prolonged long u and "û" = short u is my new understanding. Is that correct?

[Cleitanious]

Ah, many thanks! That makes very much sense.

So "u" = long u, "ú" = prolonged long u and "û" = short u is my new understanding. Is that correct?

Both U's are pronounced as long vowels, like there's an e on the end. Its only in English that "length" changes the entire sound. In Sindarin long 'u' sounds the same as short 'u', but has a longer duration. You say the u in Dúnedain, dûn, and rhûn all the same, just with different lengths.

In Sindarin, the typical English short pronunciation of u is represented by y, like in emyn which you say like emun.

Whether or not the acute accent 'ú' or the circumflex 'û' is used in Sindarin depends on the amount of sylabals in the word. Dúnedain is more than one syllables to the acute accent is used. Rhûn is one syllable so the circumflex is used.

I'm not a Linguist or Language Professor, so I'm sorry if what I am saying is hard to understand clearly.

[Berephon]

Ah, many thanks! That makes very much sense.

So "u" = long u, "ú" = prolonged long u and "û" = short u is my new understanding. Is that correct?

U is a short oo, ú is slightly longer oo, û is the longest oo. Hard to differentiate in English. In short, u is always an oo sound as in Dune.

[Cleitanious]

U is a short oo, ú is slightly longer oo, û is the longest oo. Hard to differentiate in English. In short, u is always an oo sound as in Dune.

Yes. It's only the "length" of the sound. It's not a different sound altogether. Hard to explain!

[lastalliance]

Thank you, Berephon and Cleitanious. After looking at Tolkien's writings in the appendices, it seems that the circumflex "û" also demands stress, forming the only possible exception to the stress-falls-on-first-syllable-of-bisyllabic-words-rule. The examples given were Annûn and Amrûm. Is my interpretation of the writings correct? The examples should be stressed as an-NUN and am-RUN?

And is the Sindarin "y" really pronounced as an English short "u"? I had thought it was much closer to a German "ö".

Thanks again. My confusions are gradually fading.

[Berephon]

Thank you, Berephon and Cleitanious. After looking at Tolkien's writings in the appendices, it seems that the circumflex "û" also demands stress, forming the only possible exception to the stress-falls-on-first-syllable-of-bisyllabic-words-rule. The examples given were Annûn and Amrûm. Is my interpretation of the writings correct? The examples should be stressed as an-NUN and am-RUN?

And is the Sindarin "y" really pronounced as an English short "u"? I had thought it was much closer to a German "ö".

Thanks again. My confusions are gradually fading.

If you see a diacritic, it usually demands stress as it indicates a long vowel (Númenórean, for instance, is NOO-meh-NOHR-ee-ahn.) However, ordinarily the stress falls on the first vowel (in two syllable words) or the next to last vowel in multi-syllable words. In some cases, it falls on the syllable third from the end, as in Gah-LAH-dree-ehl or AH-rah-gohrn.

Y in Sindarin is technically pronounced as the u in the French word lune (which has that weird truncated eu -- almost a short yu -- that no one but a Frenchman can pronounce.) However, as it hardly appears anywhere except at the end of multi-syllable plural words, it usually gets truncated to a short i (as in him), a sound that does not otherwise appear in Sindarin.

[Berephon]

how woudl that be pronounced? currently my dwarf champ has been givign the nickname "nucklehead" by a kinmate because its too hard to pronouce

A simplified pronunciation: NOOK-bool KOO-zer (very short e)

[Berephon]

Berephon, can we have a name for a new Rogmul?

Erebún. (ereb + ûn)

[skorpion352]

A simplified pronunciation: NOOK-bool KOO-zer (very short e)

thanks for that

[AKASlaphappy]

I am posting with a hope someone with more knowledge about the dwarf language can help. I know from the books that Durin's people were not big fans of horses, so I was wondering if anyone had any ideas of what they did name them if they had to ride them (that would be lore appropriate). I am trying to get a more dwarf name for my horse, instead of the default April. Thanks!

[Berephon]

I am posting with a hope someone with more knowledge about the dwarf language can help. I know from the books that Durin's people were not big fans of horses, so I was wondering if anyone had any ideas of what they did name them if they had to ride them (that would be lore appropriate). I am trying to get a more dwarf name for my horse, instead of the default April. Thanks!

Of course, dwarves did ride ponies quite willingly, as seen in The Hobbit (and of course, dwarves in LotRO are stuck with ponies.) They would likely have used Westron (translated as English) or the speech of the North-men (Norse) for naming mounts.

[Aesch]

The Expert Metalsmith in Imlad Gelair is named Ruineth. I'm wondering if this is intended as a joke, or if it would be a real name in Sindarin.
__________________
Team O Meneldor: Osyth, Olave, Ornwen, Oho, Orla
.

[Tuco]

The Expert Metalsmith in Imlad Gelair is named Ruineth. I'm wondering if this is intended as a joke, or if it would be a real name in Sindarin.

Rui is "hunter" or "hunting", -neth is girl or maiden. I think.

Is Ruineth female?

[Berephon]

Rui is "hunter" or "hunting", -neth is girl or maiden. I think.

Is Ruineth female?

ruin = fire. Ruineth = Woman of Fire

[skorpion352]

im trying to think of a good name for my next character, who will be a man of rohan, is it possible to get a translation of a couple of names in the language of rohan? if so, ill post my current ideas for you to translate, otherwise ill keep them to myself

[Berephon]

im trying to think of a good name for my next character, who will be a man of rohan, is it possible to get a translation of a couple of names in the language of rohan? if so, ill post my current ideas for you to translate, otherwise ill keep them to myself

I can certainly give it a shot.

[Porlock]

I can certainly give it a shot.

And, *ahem*, I can offer some help with that. I'll put my degree to good use and break out the OE dictionary!

[skorpion352]

I can certainly give it a shot.

okies. here goes:

Horse-theif
Spiderpig (yes, again )
Orc-hunter (or some variation of)

and i lost the rest of my list, but if you can think of a good name for a burgular, please let me know, and translate it

[shoreless]

And, *ahem*, I can offer some help with that. I'll put my degree to good use and break out the OE dictionary!

And have a look-see here: http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=167818

[Porlock]

okies. here goes:

Horse-theif
Spiderpig (yes, again )
Orc-hunter (or some variation of)

and i lost the rest of my list, but if you can think of a good name for a burgular, please let me know, and translate it

I don't know if Berephon has sources for Mercian, and mine are primarily Northumbrian, so he may correct these, but...

Horse-thief is going to be rather boring.

Horse = hors or hengest (yes, Hengstacer ) or stod or any variety of things for more specific meanings
Thief = theof (nima also works, as it's used in a few places to mean "one who takes")

So, horse-thief is Stodtheof. We can get more specific if you'd like to specific what gender, color, or whatnot you want to steal.

Orc-hunter is a bit tricky, because we have to actually use the word "orc" if we want to be accurate, since Tolkien got the term from Beowulf (l. 112, "orcneas"). The other obvious choices are, uh... unsavory in Tolkien's world ("ylfe," "aelf," etc. -- "elf," more or less). I'm not seeing any potential names aside from "Orcnehunta" (which is just plain ugly) or "Aelfhunta" (which may get you murdered). I'd recommend just not doing anything with "orc" anywhere in the name. I mean, we can pick vaguely related terms, but given that Tolkien's orc wasn't directly based on anything Old English knew, it's not a good idea if you aim for any level of authenticity.

And Spiderpig? Lots of options.

For spider: Grytte, spithra, lobbe, renge
For pig: Swin, pecg, for, hogg, fearh (young pig), su (sow), bar (boar)

I'm a fan of the first ones together: Grytteswin. (Pronounced something like groo-tuh-sween, with a trilled R. Look up how to pronounce the letter Y in Old English for guidance on the first part.)

HOW'D I DO?

[Edit: As for a name for a burglar, I think Porlock is awesome. It's actually a reference to Kubla Khan, which featured a "Person from Porlock" as an unexpected and unwelcome visitor. What sort of visitor could be more of either of those than a burglar?

But, for your name, it depends on what sort of burglar you want to be. Do you want to be the violent sort? Or maybe a highwayman? "Wegreaf" is the term for "highway robbery," and while I can't find an OE term correlating to "highwayman," you could use "Wegreafer." On the other hand, if you want to be the sort who robs houses, Husbrycer (or Husbrecher, to mix up the spelling a bit) would work, as would Hlothere. Regntheof is a good one, too -- "downright thief," or "arch-theif." But, then, I have a penchant for choosing character names which are wholly unpronounceable, which doesn't work so well in groups. In that case, Gripend or Saetner(e) would work. (It's actually Saet(n)ere, but the n adds character and the final e just confuses people in-game.)]

[Edit #2: I've omitted macrons for two reasons. First, because it's just easier. Second, because you can't use them in-game anyway. Be aware that a number of these words have long vowels.]