Can wardens do viable dps?

[horus418]

I know how hard DbtD hits, and how to maintain my power in a fight. I actually hadn't meant sustained in the power sense, but just sustained as in long enough that crits don't sway it so much.

Crits always sway parses though, which is why hundreds are needed. I've had more than 100 dps difference in the past when parsing the first boss in SG. This was all during during 5-6 runs one evening farming symbols for the exact same group. 1 warden, 1 burg, 1 rk, 3 champs. Sometimes the stars line up, sometimes they don't. Crits always matter.

I'd love to do so, but I don't have a healer on your server. You're right, you could break 600 dps theoretically on any mob. Would you like to the the simple arithmetic to find out the chance of that happening?

You're right, but you're practically wrong.

Which is it man, right or wrong? If I parsed 570 on a gwibber pre-update, you're trying to tell my I can't now? Give me the simple arithmetic please.

Stop pulling out 600dps parses on 8k mobs then. I can't argue those numbers, because those are the same as mine. But (repeatedly) pulling out your 600dps parse(with 2 WT devs, and several other crits/devs) isn't at all productive.

But I just told you 570 on a 20k mob, is that good enough for you or no?

Wardens out dpsing burgs? when was this? because I ripped aggro off every warden i grouped with, BAR none, at will. This is not hubris, just fact. And that's pre-patch.

Now burgs have a +8% stance and you think they MAY do more than wardens? Pah. Fact is, i don't think you know what you think you know. In fact i know you don't, because i know better.

Lol, another one... Yes, I clearly stated pre-patch that warden dps > burg dps. I clearly stated that burgs currently out dps wardens post patch. I guess you didn't bother to read the whole thread?

Facts are pre-patch the data showed wardens out dpsing burgs. Number = facts not you guessing how much damage it took for you too pull a mob off some tank.

Here is the pepsi challenge for you man... being that you are so cocky, lmao... we are on the same server... come group with me and pull a mob off me "at will", and I'll give you 100gp and delete my warden. If I keep aggro, you have to delete your burg. You up for it?

Now if you had had a shred of humility, you'd have said "most burgs" just like posters here are always quick to reply "most wardens" when defending poor tanking. Fact is, you didn't. And yeah, there are some awful players out there of all colors. However, they are not representative of the whole, as the warden community is so quick to point out. Nor should you try to paint it as such to bolster your already weak position.

My stance always had to do with equal gear and equal skill. I don't use words like "most", because I haven't played with "most", of the people in this game. If the old burg parses out there are from garbage burgs you how about you point them out so I know, but, as it stands, they were the top burg parses out there.

If i were so inclined i'd show you how silly you really are being, as you are on my server and all, but i really don't feel the need to "prove" anything to you or anyone else. But this staggering level of misinformation and patting ones self on the back is irritating to those that know better.

Oh but you do need to prove... you opened up the can of worms... come pull a few things off me "at will",. For the record, I don't pat myself on the back at all... It just seems that way because I'm defending something. My stance is that anybody can pump out the same numbers for any class, period. If player X can log in to toon Y and reach some number, player Z can do the exact same thing also logging in to toon Y. I ain't nothing special, though you sure claim to be...

[horus418]

I offer the data requested on a standardized mob. The things that 'didn't' add up' were fully addressed in the previous thread in the Burglar forums. Until someone offers a similar test, I will stand by the data presented.

So, you are sidestepping data? What standardized mob? Was it your champ? Some champs came in and cried fowl in the burglar forum and told you that your champ wasn't hitting as hard as theirs. The numbers you show in this very thread on a "standardized", mob don't equal the same numbers other champs are coming up with, including mine. How can we offer a similar test when you wont even tell is what was involved in yours? Those numbers say nothing without the missing info needed to digest.

I'm being legitimate here. I'd like a mob that everybody can agree on as a fair test as to who can do what. I want the conditions to also be fair so that each class can fully represent.

[ofMiceandHobbits]

Full disclosure is there, and questions are open to ask. This thread does not seem to be constructive data, at the moment, unlike the burglar thread was. Here is the disclosure information you requested from the original thread:

Emphasis is on stacking Cunning Attack critical and always having a crtical chain skill off cooldown and available to use. Also, the goal is to interrupt each 'normal melee' skill like CA and SubtleS with a 'Fast melee' skill like BA or DES. Same thing for Counter Defense - it is a 'Fast' skill and will greatly shorten the attack duration of a normal melee' skill. For a DPS rotation 'Provoke' really slows everything down, its a very slow skill, even though it does decent up front damage



Comparing numbers outside of this test are hard to evaluate. The test was focused on highest sustainable DPS, but after all the comments on the 'Wow your hunter/champ must suck' comments, I did the 'Burst' testing with Cool Burn and Continuous Blood Rage + Fervor. Its nowhere near maintainable for 5 minutes in either case and carries heavy penalties, and doesn't seem to eclipse the burglar in long term damage at the moment. For burst damage, as I've said before and will say again - Hunter/Champ/RK will always be the highest due to their higher critical magnitudes on singular skills (Remorseless/Brutal SwiftBow/HS, EpicConcls) and, if not that, Hunter's +50% damage burn hot skill on a 2 min cooldown.



buffs in the room were:

Focus: +60 ICPR (all classes get this)
Power Banner: +368 ICPR and +437 max power (all classes had this)
Minstrel Tale: Improved Warding +1755 armor, +1 hope (no help, I used a token anyway for +5 hope each parse)
Ancient Wisdom: +80 will (has very little if any effect in a 5 minute parse)
Motivated: +5% morale (helped champ stay in CBR a few seconds longer)

Unsure as to how you got to 2100 ICPR on your burglar, if that's even possible, unless you had outside help. Regardless its pretty much not needed, even one MD proc in a 5 minute parse is a whooping ~1250 power over time. Its really quite huge. Yes of course that is with an MD + Pulse legacy bag. All things considered the burglar was not nearly as bad on power as the, sigh, Hunters.

The training dummy is heavily susceptible to fire damage with all the Lore Master debuffs put on him, so to even things out, I used the same damage type on all classes: Beleriand. No fire oil / light oil for the hunter. The RK actually gets a small bonus because of these debuffs and the basic fire skills I keep up all the time.

DPS buffs for every test:

Counter Defense 6%
Reveal Weakness 10%
Telling Mark 5%
Ancient Craft every 30 seconds
Token (+5 hope)
Supreme Battle Lore scroll
Destiny Point 5% damage buff

Yes, the champ was mine and the rotation was outlined in the OP thread - Mainly Brutal + Clobber with 2H, Remorseless + Clobber with 1H.

[Malephor]

Which is it man, right or wrong? If I parsed 570 on a gwibber pre-update, you're trying to tell my I can't now? Give me the simple arithmetic please.

I meant practically wrong in the sense that while in theory you can get lucky enough to have that many crits/devs work out for you, it just doesn't happen at all often. And I won't give you the simple arithmetic, because it never was simple, nor arithmetic, but rather statistics.

[horus418]

I meant practically wrong in the sense that while in theory you can get lucky enough to have that many crits/devs work out for you, it just doesn't happen at all often. And I won't give you the simple arithmetic, because it never was simple, nor arithmetic, but rather statistics.

We are in perfect agreement. I think we must be confusing each other's points a little. I'm saying/said that wardens, built for melee dps, can do between 450-500 dps sustained (solo/unbuffed),. Is that something you can see or does that just seem to high to you?

ofMiceandHobbits, I am confused now. Are you saying that the data you posted here today is from a test dummy?

[Malephor]

We are in perfect agreement. I think we much be confusing each other's points a little. I'm saying/said that wardens, well built for it wardens can do around between 450-500 dps sustained. Is that something you can see or does that just seem to high to you?

I can see(and have seen) that number before.

[ofMiceandHobbits]

We are in perfect agreement. I think we much be confusing each other's points a little. I'm saying/said that wardens, built for melee dps, can do between 450-500 dps sustained (solo/unbuffed),. Is that something you can see or does that just seem to high to you?

ofMiceandHobbits, I am confused now. Are you saying that the data you posted here today is from a test dummy?

Yessir, this data is the exact same as the Burglar forum. The initial question was proposed "my burglar is useless in the new update 2" so I went to investigate and posted my tests and results.

Is it inherently biased? Of course it is, I conducted it. But should my couple weeks of work be thrown out as a casual player e-peening on the forums? I sure hope we are above that. I presented the data collected and responded and adapted the tests to criticisms thrown out. I'd hope that at the least would be respected, if only in a small way.

Good day.

[horus418]

Yessir, this data is the exact same as the Burglar forum. The initial question was proposed "my burglar is useless in the new update 2" so I went to investigate and posted my tests and results.

Where is this test dummy now? What is your champs melee offense and crit rating?

[horus418]

I can see(and have seen) that number before.

Then we've been going back and forth for nothing. You do realize I'm talking average dps right? There will be numbers well below 450 and well above 500 from time to time.

[ofMiceandHobbits]

Where is this test dummy now? What is your champs melee offense and crit rating?

Test dummy is in the Eyes and Guard Tavern on the Bullroarer server only. It is lvl 65, mob type Man.

Champs stats I will update here in a second, have to look them up in my spreadsheet:

Melee offense rating: 10,250 - about 52.5% I believe that is in Fervor with 5% damage buff (the % isnt exact I didnt record that, thats what I recall however)
Melee critical rating: 4650 - 15% crit with 5.1% devastate
65 second ages with Beleraind + Ancient Evil Tier3 scrolls (crit damage, brutal, remorseless, feral damage legacies maxed, AoE not tested)
-5% attack duration relics slotted
BG set
5 red, 2 yellow traits (yellows being Battle Frenzy and Rend armor reduction, reds being all crit ratings and magnitudes, fervor on crits, the bleed on crits, and flurry)

[horus418]

Didn't catch your edit...

Is it inherently biased? Of course it is, I conducted it. But should my couple weeks of work be thrown out as a casual player e-peening on the forums? I sure hope we are above that. I presented the data collected and responded and adapted the tests to criticisms thrown out. I'd hope that at the least would be respected, if only in a small way.

Good day.

In no way should your work be thrown out. I never took anything you've said as epeen at all, it sure didn't come across that way to me. You seem like a top notch burg to me and I don't find your burg numbers unbelievable at all actually. All I'm speculating is that perhaps your champ isn't as good as your burg. That isn't meant to be mean at all, only how it looks from my end.

And please people don't take what I say as epeen either. I'm far too mellow of a person for that and the solo dps output I'm talking about on my warden isn't anything to brag about, lol.

[usernamealreadyinuse]

I've seen some of roov's parses, and most of them were from AOE fights. None that i saw were 800 ST, but then again it's been a couple of months since i last searched. As to champs, I was talking about other people, not you, no offense. I already know what you think, I was just seeing if that's a majority or you. And there is no way that the best guard will out dps the best burg ST. Especially post-update. That just doesn't add up. I know that guards can hit hard, very hard for a tanking class (though it's hard to hit hard while tanking as you need a shield for harder stuff) but for a class like the brg, which is not a tanking, but a Support/dps class, that doesn't add up. I have a feeling this debate is over, as you think you're right, i think i'm right, and the truth is we're probably both wrong lol. But anyways, nice discussion, you've brought some entertainment to an otherwise boring day

Respectfully,

~Rae

I and many other champs i've seen can break 1000 on the Lt. in phase 1. I haven't really parsed anything in OD but i think there is potential to lay down some really high dps numbers. A full OD set will make it easier to get crazy dps numbers on single target fights too.

I think a lot of people don't realise how hard a burtal clobber combo hits with a 2 hander. Every 4.8 ish second I'm laying down 4 strikes that can crit well over 1000, even up to 2k+

[Sapience]

Keep personal issues out of the thread. Rather than lock the thread, we'll remove those who can't seem to discuss the topic without violating the Communty Guidelines.

[Medvega]

Have a lvl 50 warden - spear traited, aoe traited e.t.c
Was in a GB group helping to people with a 65 champion. During all GB's, all mobs/bosses were on me. The point is that i was not trying to keep agro, i was trying to do maximum dps.

[Mysterion]

Have a lvl 50 warden - spear traited, aoe traited e.t.c
Was in a GB group helping to people with a 65 champion. During all GB's, all mobs/bosses were on me. The point is that i was not trying to keep agro, i was trying to do maximum dps.

Was the champion only auto attacking? Or may be just standing there. Even if he is dumping all his aggro on you with ebbing ire this seems pretty unrealistic. Champs shing shing way more than your lvl 50 warden.

[Antrius]

Now you've done it......
Gone and brought a blue into the warden forums, great going guys.......
LOL!

[Darlgon]

Actually, he is THE BLUE.

[Medvega]

Was the champion only auto attacking? Or may be just standing there. Even if he is dumping all his aggro on you with ebbing ire this seems pretty unrealistic. Champs shing shing way more than your lvl 50 warden.

Realy, idk. We have done alot of damage together, which i saw in a log chat. Im playing in a agility build, so i have alot of crits per minute, from 200-1k, depends on a type of gambit or a spear skills.

[Mysterion]

Realy, idk. We have done alot of damage together, which i saw in a log chat. Im playing in a agility build, so i have alot of crits per minute, from 200-1k, depends on a type of gambit or a spear skills.

I run a threat build and heavy hitting champs can still pull aggro from me. Its pretty much a game with the group I run with. Can our warden keep aggro from champ and hunter? I am pretty much doing only AOE leech skills and threat transfers (or pb / dps / transfers on ST). Things get killed fast and makes farm mode runs more interesting.

There is no way warden dps only would keep up with that. I don't know the parses and don't have a champ but 200-1k is a drop in the bucket to what they can dish out. Your champ must have been being nice to you.

[Medvega]

I run a threat build and heavy hitting champs can still pull aggro from me. Its pretty much a game with the group I run with. Can our warden keep aggro from champ and hunter? I am pretty much doing only AOE leech skills and threat transfers (or pb / dps / transfers on ST). Things get killed fast and makes farm mode runs more interesting.

There is no way warden dps only would keep up with that. I don't know the parses and don't have a champ but 200-1k is a drop in the bucket to what they can dish out. Your champ must have been being nice to you.

Well, some fist aoe skills do alot of damage, so i v used them too. But probably you are right, i don't know game mechanics good enough yet, so just sharing my own exp there to other people: agility + spear traited warden could do alot of damage. Idk how much damage others do at 50 lvl, but for me its good enough - i have a save abilities + i can pull mobs with 500-1000 critical hits from a start (al spear throw skills together could do over 2k damage), not so bad.

[Mysterion]

Cool, i'm glad you are having success with DPS.

I'm going to try spear capstone tanking at some point in the near future. I just don't think I would have been able to hold aggro from a 65 anything at level 50, let alone a champ.

[Rissien]

Now that combat analysis is back and working people can actually parse their dps again.

I went out near Thrors Coomb and killed about 50 gwiber and gwiberlings

Gwiberlings: I consistently had about 470-480 dps with an average of 510. The max dps was 695 (with no WT crit)


Gwiber: My average was around 460 dps with a max of 560

I tried many different rotations on the gwiber but never got enough nice crits in any single fight.

Combat analysis said my dps for the entire time was 410, but that includes all the time in combat not doing dps. Which includes my time running off agro a few times when I got stunned or a wandering mob interfered.


I used a modified version of my 1v1 gear where I had might and agility at 650, melee crit at 14.4% melee offence little over 9k at 41%. I did forget to bring my dev mag helm though.

[striverg]

A little bump here because I finally got a chance to parse with my burg buddy on gwibers in response to the claim that overpower guards and spear wardens did more dps than burgs.

Parameters:
1) We used CombatAnalysis3.0
2) I would go in and get initial threat.
3) Burglar would do at least 15k of the 20k damage(I judged this by my own combat analysis running)
4) No outside buffs of any kind

We parsed about 15 gwibers, 5 of which were above 590 DPS(he took screenshots of these in case we needed them later) and they were as follows:
599.2
649.9
656.6
660.6
820.8(used double-aim with RnA and some other weird burgy goodness)

As for the other parses there were 6 between 540-590 and a few outliers as low as 500

One major issue we ran into was the fire aura around the gwibers would dispel his stealth, so he started with HIPS a few times.

[Malephor]

I consistently had about 470-480 dps with an average of 510.

This statement confuses me.

[Naesriel]

This statement confuses me.

averages are very susceptible to outliers. if you do 9 tests with DPS 475 and one test (due to crazy crits or whatever) of 825 DPS, you'll get 'consistently about 470-480 DPS with an average of 510 DPS'.