A friendly chat with Sapience (@ Gamescom 2011)

[Sexxy]

But there is plenty of blame to put on those who associated their personal assumptions to what the expansion would include, with or without the marketing spin.

I'm sorry, there's no Marketing personnel out there that is so good to actually "Inception" us into believing things to be included that were never there in the first place.

So, its the player's fault for not managing their expectations? Got it.

Not that there was any doubt which side of the fence you sat on anyway.

[DarkCntry]

So, its the player's fault for not managing their expectations? Got it.

Not that there was any doubt which side of the fence you sat on anyway.

No, it's the player's fault for exceeding what information was given to us.

And I'm glad you know 'what side of the fence' I'm sitting on...next time, if you wish to discuss things like adults, perhaps it'd be best to leave out the petty jabs at my character.

[WinterStar]

You said in one of you posts that you were very satisfied with the chat you had with Sapience. Really? What is satisfactory, in what he said?Sapience said nothing new, literally nothing new and he didnt say nothing good/interesting about RoI as well
If you are happy with a so called ''expansion'' that launches with nothing more than a region and quests, then i dont know what to tell you..
And for all those replies that people say ''that was great''. ''cant give you more rep'', what are you talking about? did you read something that you liked in what Sapience said? Am i missing something here or what? Nothing exciting been said or any news for Isengard

[Lowj]

Lowj, thank you so much for your hard word in presenting this interview. The system won't let me give you anymore actual +rep at this time, but believe me, lots of virutal +rep is sent your way.

Thanks! It really means a lot to me to read so many positive comments and thankyous! Not just for me personally but more so because I've been very disappointed with the extremely negative attitude that has descended upon this forum. And I can't remember ever seeing anything remotely like it, even on the former Codemasters forums - keep in mind that many EU players felt like we were being treated as second rate customers, compared to the US players.

I really wish people would lighten up a little. Ah hell... who am I kidding? Flame on, whine, moan, do whatever you want. This is the internet, isn't it? YOU are ALWAYS right, right?

[Crell_1]

In fact, they haven't actually announced that RoI in the store will even be part of the IsenSTD token. Sapience said something (its in the RoI FAQ) about it possibly not being in the same form as the preorder.

I assume based on the 3 tiered pricing, the lotro store will get the 'Rise Of Isengard Expansion', and none of the pre-order perks in any form. ; It may be also available broken down but these are the parts I'm expecting to see included.

Taken from my thread where I muse about pricing:

My estimates: I'm thinking 2500-3000TP= ROI XP, Composed of ('Dunland QP', 'Isengard QP', 'Gap of Rohan QP' + Dragon Raid ;I'm sure we'll see more information at PAX. & Skirmish Soldier Rank [Max soldier lev80]); .. This is what I expect our IsenSTD ProductToken will get us. Pieces will cost more than 4000TP separately.

Things I'm not expecting to see in the package deal:

On the PVMP side of things 6 Classes @ 700TP each=3500TP; + Whatever costs they put into the rank up/skill up process
+ Whatever they charge to send our Freeps to the moors, account wide.
+ Ability to spend DP
+ Ability to buy perm Swift Travel (How-else are we getting these freeps to the moors?)
None of this I expect will be given away as part of IsenSTD, I suspect it'll remain as rental content for VIPS until they make some kind of seperate purchase, some of it might shift into 'past subscriber' trait.

Additionally, I'll clarify. I'm assuming soldiers will be able to be increased in rank given the level cap increase. They havent officially announced this either.

[Feraxks]

I really wish people would lighten up a little.

Quoted for truth!

[Celestrata]

I've been watching this thread all day, everyone, and I am quite disheartened to see that a few people are taking this as an opportunity to belittle or attack one another over opposing opinions.

I'd like to take the time to remind you all that just because you may not like the news does not give you a right to personally attack and insult others, just as liking the news does not give you that right. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, whether you agree with it or not, and we can discuss this calmly and together.

We're all players here, and we're all invested in the game's future. No need to begin insulting one another.

[Arbalister]

I assume based on the 3 tiered pricing, the lotro store will get the 'Rise Of Isengard Expansion', and none of the pre-order perks in any form. ; It may be also available broken down but these are the parts I'm expecting to see included.

I do too...but we all know about "assume" right? :-) I'm not making *any* sort of guess until after it's officially announced. :-) And then I might speculate...

[Crell_1]

I do too...but we all know about "assume" right? :-) I'm not making *any* sort of guess until after it's officially announced. :-) And then I might speculate...

Somewhere there's a maxim that fits this I'm sure ...


What can I say.. I'm young, impulsive, and have been actively trying to get this info since the press-release.. I'm more astonished by +Sapience's comment about it being the first time he's been asked about F2P/Premium PvMP Freeps. Somewhat concerned that he's only got a theory and that this isn't knowledge he's got locked down, even if he couldnt tell us under NDA.. I've made a point to emphasize it everytime someone brings up that F2P are going to get monster play. They've only promised access to reavers and that they'll sell other monster classes.. everything else is still 'in the air'..


[.sarcasm] Did Turbine really think People would only want to buy permanent access to one side of monster play? [./sarcasm]

[Lomeloth]

These forums have a long and storied history of taking *ANY* projection of when new content is coming, or suggestion that a feature might be added, and turning it into the word of God. Look at threads in this forum for evidence of that - "only a 24 man raid that was *PROMISED* to us in April..." Apparently it doesn't count as part of an expansion *now* because...well...we were promised it before.

The problem I have with this particular point is that it was originally promised as part of a free Anniversary celebration, and became part of a paid expansion. Slipping timelines is one thing, but slipping something in for pay that was originally supposed to be free (whether or not it was in order to shore up lacking content) is quite another. Sure, now it "counts" as expansion content (by virtue of being in it), but it is also leaving a very bad taste in my mouth (something to which I'm becoming sadly accustomed). As a side note, though, the astute observer* might have taken it as a sign of what type of content was likely to actually be forthcoming (or not) in said expansion. The dancing around being done rather than giving a solid answer on when RoI will be available to purchase with TP and whether the new 'coming' instances will have an additional price tag is just adding insult to injury. I find I've quite lost my appetite for Turbine's monetization schemes.

ETA: This is in no way meant to demean the good efforts of the OP to get questions answered. I've added rep to you, because you went above and beyond in collecting the questions, getting time with Sapience, and reporting back. That I don't like the answers in no way lessens my admiration and gratitude to you!

TL;DR: I've pre-ordered something with a fall release date - and it's not RoI.

*See: "Doom and gloomer"

[Longfeellow]

ignore this post accept for Loge..


Thank you for all information. Great to see Turbine employee's interacting with players and taking the time to explain somethings that I am sure many were wondering.

+ rep for OP
+ rep for Sapience

[Arbalister]

The problem I have with this particular point is that it was originally promised as part of a free Anniversary celebration, and became part of a paid expansion.

Yes, I'll grant you that. And it could be that it being included pushed back the 3.6.12 instances that we now know are in the pipe. I'd suppose it came down to a choice: "which would we rather have as paid for content..." and in this case, the 24 man raid won. There might also have been the consideration that they just added some smaller group content earlier in the year.

Not saying it was a good move, but in the context that it was *either* 24 man or 3.6.12 man...which was the better choice?

[Arbalister]

ignore this post.

/ignore

[Longfeellow]

/ignore

lol

While I don't always agree with you Arb, I agree with quite a bit you have had to say on this thread. And I didn't really see it untill you pointed it out. Thank you.

[Wayshuba]

Exactly.

So lets not sit here and place blame on the player base like Arbalister is doing.

This IS marketing, and some of their marketing lately falls in the "grey" areas and a portion of that is out right shady.

Sorry, I'd respectfully disagree on one point... their marketing and business practice is no longer in the grey area... it has crossed a point where it could be considered black. They keep this method of business up and mark my words, there will be some nasty blood spilled in the coming year. No offense to attorneys, but with them owned by such a big corporate entity and bordering on fraudulant business practice, some attorney is going to smell blood.

I've been there, done that, and I would actually be willing to bet this is going to happen before summer of next year if not this fall. Mark my words and remember.

[Crell_1]

The problem I have with this particular point is that it was originally promised as part of a free Anniversary celebration, and became part of a paid expansion.

I could make reference to DDOs celebrations where buying access (instead of doing really grindy initial item acquisition) is an option, which you can then sustain once you get in, isnt all that uncommon. [Crystal Cove anyone?]

I'll point to the 'Treasure hunt' being nothing more than a thinly veiled tp grab lotto for ingame cosmetics (In its brief time in bullroarer),
also
I'll say...the raid is probably a bigger draw for players than 3/6/12 mans would have been if it had to be an either or; they chose well. I wish they'd been more forthcoming though.

[Longfeellow]

Sorry, I'd respectfully disagree on one point... their marketing and business practice is no longer in the grey area... it has crossed a point where it could be considered black. They keep this method of business up and mark my words, there will be some nasty blood spilled in the coming year. No offense to attorneys, but with them owned by such a big corporate entity and bordering on fraudulant business practice, some attorney is going to smell blood.

I've been there, done that, and I would actually be willing to bet this is going to happen before summer of next year if not this fall. Mark my words and remember.

Just for my own curiosity, where is the false advertising and marketing? Press releases that came out over 6 months ago? Well before the official RoI anouncement from E3 where they said exactly what we are getting? Where on the official Isengard page did they say we were getting an instance cluster? Or new PvMP area? Or anything else that people are decrying?

Don't show a press release from December of last year. Show something fairly new. Show something from the point where they announced the official release date of RoI and said we were getting any of the listed above. There hasn't been any. As with any press release, items and and terms are subject to change. That is just the way it is.

[Armaius]

Sorry, I'd respectfully disagree on one point... their marketing and business practice is no longer in the grey area... it has crossed a point where it could be considered black. They keep this method of business up and mark my words, there will be some nasty blood spilled in the coming year. No offense to attorneys, but with them owned by such a big corporate entity and bordering on fraudulant business practice, some attorney is going to smell blood.

I've been there, done that, and I would actually be willing to bet this is going to happen before summer of next year if not this fall. Mark my words and remember.

I wouldn't. A few people on the forums blowing hot air on the forums does not equate with a lawsuit. And if it really does come to that...well, I think its safe to say that person who would go to that extreme has absolutely no life outside of LotRO and has taken this game FAR too seriously for his (or her) own good.

[Kyrra_T]

There is an extremely vocal minority that seems to have the mistaken impression that raiders represent a large number in the LOTRO playerbase. It's been made clear a number of times over the years that solo, duo and small group play is the majority.

You might not like this, instances might make your bells whistle in 3/4 time, and I'm happy for you if you like that, but don't mistakenly believe that raiders are the majority, or that they ever have been in LOTRO.

The games we play ought to be the ones we enjoy. If this game isn't the one you enjoy there are a lot out there to choose from, you don't have to flame up these forums just because this game isn't the right game for you.

[Fin.]

There is an extremely vocal minority that seems to have the mistaken impression that raiders represent a large number in the LOTRO playerbase. It's been made clear a number of times over the years that solo, duo and small group play is the majority.

You might not like this, instances might make your bells whistle in 3/4 time, and I'm happy for you if you like that, but don't mistakenly believe that raiders are the majority, or that they ever have been in LOTRO.

The games we play ought to be the ones we enjoy. If this game isn't the one you enjoy there are a lot out there to choose from, you don't have to flame up these forums just because this game isn't the right game for you.

Exactly, that's why majority of people prefer 3/6/12 mans over one 24 man raid.

Not saying it was a good move, but in the context that it was *either* 24 man or 3.6.12 man...which was the better choice?

From Turbine financial perspective, it makes more sense to ship lair raid with RoI and sell instance cluster later for extra earnings.

From players perspective, it makes sense to start in 3/6/12 mans which will later on eventually lead to epic 24man lair raid. You will not convince me that majority of Lotro players prefer 24man raid over smaller group instances.

[MorliX]

What that tells me is they are considering charging extra for this instance cluster. If they were 100% positive that the ROI purchase would include it, they would state that to help push sales for people disappointed in the lack of instances on release.
.

It could be even more insidious...they could KNOW they are going to charge, but are staying silent about that as they did until now (after the cat was out of the bag already) about no instances ...allowing some people to buy RoI with higher expectations that were warranted.

More could still purchase in the next 5 weeks, assuming (once again), that instances will arrive later free of charge, since they paid for RoI.

Hey...when you have live fish on the hook...you keep on reeling them in, no?

[jayspeed]

Ok I will admit I have no knowledge of how a game development company runs. But what is this budget he speaks of? The only money they need to spend is on employee salaries. Not counting electricty, building lease, bandwidth, and other business operation costs. The only budget I can think of is a time budget. They'd need to budget their time. Spend X hours making Y then move on to Z because it will require alot of hours to make. I guess if they aren't making enough of a profit, they can't pay salaries so that's less people working on game development and less new content being made. Am I completely off base cause that budget comment made me wonder.

[Armaius]

Ok I will admit I have no knowledge of how a game development company runs. But what is this budget he speaks of? The only money they need to spend is on employee salaries. Not counting electricty, building lease, bandwidth, and other business operation costs. The only budget I can think of is a time budget. They'd need to budget their time. Spend X hours making Y then move on to Z because it will require alot of hours to make. I guess if they aren't making enough of a profit, they can't pay salaries so that's less people working on game development and less new content being made. Am I completely off base cause that budget comment made me wonder.

Er...no. Admittedly, I'm also quite ignorant when it comes to the inside workings of game developing companies, but as I understand it, there's substantially more money that has to be spent than just employee salaries.

[Lomeloth]

There is an extremely vocal minority that seems to have the mistaken impression that raiders represent a large number in the LOTRO playerbase. It's been made clear a number of times over the years that solo, duo and small group play is the majority.

Right. So, who's getting new content? Raiders (though it's suboptimal content from their point of view), and presumably soloers (based on the soloification of the epic line). The paucity of new landscape group quests in the recent past make duo, small group, or full group content unlikely. That has predominantly been delivered in instances and skirmishes, which are notably absent from this expansion. What exactly was your point?

You might not like this, instances might make your bells whistle in 3/4 time, and I'm happy for you if you like that, but don't mistakenly believe that raiders are the majority, or that they ever have been in LOTRO.

This update delivers a raid though. It may only be a lair boss, but it is a raid. 3/6 man instances are by definition not raids. Don't mistakenly believe any one playstyle, majority or not, is the only one worthy of satisfaction in a game that has, heretofor, satisfied multiple styles at least in some measure.

The games we play ought to be the ones we enjoy. If this game isn't the one you enjoy there are a lot out there to choose from, you don't have to flame up these forums just because this game isn't the right game for you.

It is not flaming to express opinions and feedback on the forums of a game I have enjoyed and wish more than anything to continue enjoying. This is (or at least, has been for the past four years) the right game for me. You may disagree with my opinion, but it's hardly constructive to tell me to just go elsewhere.

[oldbadgerbrock]

Thanks for the report, Lowj!

We spoke about the difference between DDO and LOTRO and how DDO is often about puzzles and such, so I mentioned how much I enjoyed the Inn of the Forsaken instance and similar quests. By then, Sapience had returned and he explained that that the people who design an instance get quite a bit of room to play around, and that this particular instance was obviously created by someone who has fond memories of the Goonies

Goonies, eh? I thought it might have been the Pirates of the Caribbean ride at Disneyland.

There is a connection between Goonies and LOTR. Anyone wanna guess what it is? That's right, actor Sean Astin played the role of Mikey Walsh in 'Goonies' and Samwise Gamgee in 'The Lord of the Rings' movies!