Greetings! Let's talk Revamp!

[medwulf]

I know there have been a lot of complaints about the hunter class. Honestly I think the hunter is in a pretty good place right now, but does need some attention.

1. I believe the main issue is that we need to sacrifice damage for survivability. I mean like my hunter has more Vit than my my champ! We need either an inductionless press onward, or a stronger version of Cry of the Hunter, or perhaps add a debuff to Blood-Arrow(havent been using that skill much lately) which through knowledge of plants/herbs in the wild adds a +20% miss chance to the target for 20s, its not "poison" per se but interferes with the targets concentration, maybe makes them a little woozy.

2. Consolidation: Make 3 track skills into 1. Make low cut have a bleed effect and get rid of its legacy. Hunter weapons have too many good legacies. I had to drop 'Find the Path' Leg for 'Crit in Precision' Leg. It was that or Needful Haste legacy. Also can we drop the legendary melee weapon for a Legendary Quiver? It would just seem much more appropriate for the class.
There has never really been a reason for us to have 6 crafted trap items, and 2 'trap skills'. Change this, I have a bag full of just hunter devices. Keep triple trap, and merge quick, strong, and bear traps. Lure trap is fun in the Moors just to see if any creeps will actually fall for it

3. Functionality: I'm not going to pick over everything, but would suggest either scaling Heartseeker, adding an extra effect to it like a root, or giving it a higher crit rate out of stealth. In fact I and others have suggested that shooting while stealthed should have some kind of bonus, that would be a real Stealthy Shot! Cmon Do It!Possibly combine barbed arrow and quick shot, if you are looking at cleaning up clutter, but lets not get too crazy, most of our shots are very useful.
Bard's Arrow needs a change in that it should not be a Legendary. Make it a regular skill, and give us something cool in exchange.

All in All I believe the reason that Hunter's have been left out a bit is because it is a very powerful class and the Devs seem to be very careful about not altering too many things. A change that is well intentioned could put the class into OP land. Main problem is the Hunter is too Glass-Cannonish.

[Exion_Blade]

My take as a hunter who has experienced the lvl75 endgame.
I'll read the thread later since it's mostly tl;dr.

But first and foremost: LESS ANIMATIONS PLEASE
My god the number of (long) animations is insane. Hunters can win an animation-emote battle. That is very sad. Please kill a few of these animations, streamline things. Or if a total revamp is done PLEASE don't put in too many animations. They're pretty and all but extremely impractical.

Next thing: Please take a good HARD look at the Focus Mechanic.
originally it was designed to supplement the hunts induction attacks, i take it? As this stand right now both our red and blue lines, and even our legacies, seem tied to the concept of a focus using hunter, or an induction using hunter. This should be trashed all together and rebuilt from the ground up. So the focus mechanic in and of itself should be very much scrutinized. Possibly removing it all together? One problem with it, that no other class faces, is that you LOSE focus pips while moving. This makes it so that in order to be an effective damaging class, they have to plan their feet and not move or they will lose the only thing they're good at: dealing damage.

Which leads to my next thing: Make hunters viable as a melee class too.
Who ever came up with the idea that a hunter should be horrible at melee, while never being able to be dynamic at range when dealing with a melee opponent?? Hunters can be separated from blackarrows in this respect if they are able to be deadly at close range as well as long. This will give them a unique play-style that is only shared with the warden (hint hint). Ofc i don't mean that a hunter should be able to do both at once, no. There should be tradeoffs. But it doesnt make sense to have a class who seems to be skilled enough to wield two weapons at once not be able to use them to any sort of effectiveness. Again, it makes the class clunky. Not sexy at all.

Another point: Make it so that not every new players LOVES the hunter, and only the hunter.
One big problem I've noticed is the massive population of hunters. And a question comes up as to why this is and the answer I've found is simple, it's the white elephant of the hunter world: our 40m range. it's so very convenient to kill something before it gets to you, it's so safe and reassuring, you always win, and everyone likes to always win. New players are deceived into believing this is how their class will always be through out the whole game so they stick with it. And honestly, why is it that new and inexperienced hunters instantly start out being able to accurately fire and hit a target at 40m, and never progress through out the game as being able to hit farther and farther as they gain experience? This has bothered me for some time. One idea is to reduce the newbie hunters range to a far more considerable range, i would say between 20m and 30m. Before anyone cries foul this would ACCOMPANY the other changes such as improved melee capability. This can help divert every single new player from "OMG hunter is so easy i love it" to "well, this class is cool too", hopefully with some changes to other classes that actually make their easier in the beginning, such as the loremaster, burglar, and tanking classes. (hint hint) You would be able to either passively increase your range as you gain levels, or increase your range through proper training, such as an archer line (as opposed to a melee line, hint hint,), or through legacies. This is something you devs can play with, PLEASE try out these ideas.


Legacies: redo em, redundant focus and induction legacies are SEVERELY outdated.

Legendary traits: not legendary at all, Complete overhaul, start from scratch.

Another gripe: What's with all the hunter consumables??? It's a long standing joke that a hunters best friend is a good scholar. Why is this? Why is hunter the only class that MUST remain constantly buffed with consumables to remain viable? Please remove offensive consumable buffs for hunters. This should have never existed. If hunter needs a consumable to not be gimped, it's a sign there's something wrong with the class.

One thing i would love to see with aforementioned changes/ideas: Moving stealth.
If hunters arent simply a derp-spam 40m range nunkers, then honestly moving stealth would make sense class-wise. This can be played with and tweaked, but the idea shouldn't be taken off the table so easily. Afterall since when does stalking prey mean you have to stand still all the time?


As a last thought, Can we please remember the class is Hunter, When you think of a hunter you shouldn't think of some dude with a bow who just shoots at stuff and falls over when hit by a strong wind. Hunter should seem more like a stealthy and deadly warrior who is as adept at melee as range, but obviously not both at the same time. And he should have as many tricks up his sleeve as a burglar when it comes to combat.

Hunters want a Ranger, not an Archer.

[ChromiteSwiftpaw]

Hunters want a Ranger, not an Archer.

I think this simple sentence sums it up nicely for me.

I want a Ranger. Let me be able to tank/aoe aggro a little bit. Let me be able to do top tier ranged damage. Let me be able to do decent amount of melee damage.

Right now champs can do insane dps and tank quite well. (Can sometimes do both at once!)
Right now wardens can do insane dps and tank quite well. (Although the might/agi double bonus helps a bit here right now...)
Right now hunters can do insane dps and tank horribly.

I know there's a lot of hunters on these forums who prefer to sit back and be glass cannon, coffee sipping hipsters in tight pants. That's fine, but there are still some of us manly men who want to get in the thick of things to help protect the healers and squishies.

[Olfaran]

Right now champs can do insane dps and tank quite well. (Can sometimes do both at once!)
Right now wardens can do insane dps and tank quite well. (Although the might/agi double bonus helps a bit here right now...)
Right now hunters can do insane dps and tank horribly.

Don`t forget burgs - right now they can do ZOMGWTF DPS (esp. when stacked) and provide a ton of utility.

[Taldeen]

Hunters want a Ranger, not an Archer.

No, i have to disagree.
I want an Archer(usually for Raids, good tanks are still capeable to hold aggro most of the time), the reason for a Re traitline!
I want a Ranger(also for Raids, best in small groups or Solo, being able to move), the reason for the blue traitline.
I want a Woodsman(something similar to a Lore-master, with some really good debuff/buff options), the reason for the yellow traitline.

I think the hunter needs to be better balanced in every traitline. He does NOT need a complete revmap! I use currently all the traitlines on regular basis. Hunters who don’t use them probably just soloed their hunter to max-level.

And please, please limit the sign stacking of burglars; three will be more than enough!

[Xerosohn]

As postet by many Hunters here, HS needs desperately a Revamp! Let's make it revolutionary to bring it back to Life! Let the Hunter choose how long he aims ! The longer he aims, the more damage the Shot produces/ the more Mitigation is ignored! So it has to be a toggled or channeled Skill, where the Hunter can choose when to release his arrow ! Especially in the Moors, this would very much improve the Skill behause in every Situation the Hunter can react to the circumstances. Be cold-blooded and aim until the Reaver is almost upon you, or do less DMG and get away..

[Exion_Blade]

No, i have to disagree.
I want an Archer(usually for Raids, good tanks are still capeable to hold aggro most of the time), the reason for a Re traitline!
I want a Ranger(also for Raids, best in small groups or Solo, being able to move), the reason for the blue traitline.
I want a Woodsman(something similar to a Lore-master, with some really good debuff/buff options), the reason for the yellow traitline.

I think the hunter needs to be better balanced in every traitline. He does NOT need a complete revmap! I use currently all the traitlines on regular basis. Hunters who don’t use them probably just soloed their hunter to max-level.

And please, please limit the sign stacking of burglars; three will be more than enough!

That's exactly what i mean. hunters right now only have the option of being an archer. We dont want that to be our only option while at the same time we DO want to a AN option. But we want other options like being less squishy and stronger in melee, as an option, i think that the yellow line, our CC line, should be strengthened and have a debuffing element incorporated into it. Again, give us options! Allow us to be good at alot of things, but not all at once, rather than just good at one thing, and only one thing!

When i think ranger i think a med-arm champ who can shoot almost as good as an Elf Sentinel. Cant tank but can put out the dps, CC and debuffs. only thing we cant do is heal others. But if this level of utility and usefulness IS achieved then PLEASE make new hunters a difficult toon to play till later levels. We need less hunters, not more. Scale the LM moral costs, make burgs simpler at low lvl, make guards stronger at lower lvls damage wise. Level it out and stop making the hunter so damned easy at lower levels. And make other classes just as easy and fun.

[Malinuil]

1. Legendary Traits: The two that are put in as spares after Improved Fleetness (or whatever your big legendary trait that you run) need to not be thought of as spares anymore. Everyone, including myself, thinks that hunters need more survivability, and this is 100% true. To kill two birds with one stone, I think that Bow of the Righteous should become something similar to a reaver's wrath skill in that it is an actual SKILL that, when activated, will enable morale and power to be gained upon each successful hit. Prevention from being OP may include a decent cooldown (4-5 mins) and no spammable skill to reduce said cooldown, and a duration of about 30 seconds or so.

2. Skill fixes: Press Onward needs to give more of a heal. Heartseeker needs to be returned to at least some of its former glory (maybe not 10k dev's at level 50 glory, but enough to make the long induction, and giant glowing crosshairs on a creep in the moors, worthwhile) and lastly, Cry of the Hunter needs to save first and animate later, rather than the other way around like it is now.

3. I don't really have too many other concerns, but a nice third point would be (as many others have said before me) fixing the yellow trait line so it can at least be tossed around as an option as a build, whether it be moors, or trying to solo a certain instance a few levels under scale or what have you.

[Kelsan]

Great stuff, keep it coming.

I'm sure some of you have taken note of my post in the Burglar thread and want to know if my analysis of the hunter is done. The answer is yes. The analysis was complete before this post was made. The information gathered here is going to validate/invalidate the analysis and shape the design.

I'll share more information once I'm able, but for now... we don't want to influence the feedback.

Thanks

[ColorSpecs]

I'll share more information once I'm able, but for now... we don't want to influence the feedback.

Makes sense.

But lets see if your analysis is going down the right path.

Please complete this sentence: "The role of the hunter, in relation to other dps classes is..."

[Kelsan]

Makes sense.

But lets see if your analysis is going down the right path.

Please complete this sentence: "The role of the hunter, in relation to other dps classes is..."

HA. That's a bit of a loaded sentence. The role of the hunter in regards to other DPS needs to be established based on what other role the class provides.

In general, a class that fulfills a singular role should exceed the capabilities of more hybrid/utility classes in the shared role.

[Sezneg]

HA. That's a bit of a loaded sentence. The role of the hunter in regards to other DPS needs to be established based on what other role the class provides.

In general, a class the fulfills a singular role should exceed the capabilities of more hybrid/utility classes in the shared role.

I was tempted to report this post to the forum mods for making too much sense.

If you can actually impart this philosophy into all the class overhauls you'll be a hero.

[auximenes]

For those calling for a 'Ranger' over an 'Archer', wouldn't tweaking the already available melee skills by simpler and easier to pull off in a balanced way than a full re-write? LotRO's primary archer class type is unique and I'd like to see it stay that way.

[Macroscian]

As stated earlier:

it's not a tough game, not overly complicated
once there was a class where I could click few times instead of many and my hands wouldn't hurt so much
now the same class has many clicks and they're at random intervals and I can't play
(and the class is much the same otherwise it simply caught many many more clicks).

Muda/waste = )

[slflew]

HA. That's a bit of a loaded sentence. The role of the hunter in regards to other DPS needs to be established based on what other role the class provides.

In general, a class that fulfills a singular role should exceed the capabilities of more hybrid/utility classes in the shared role.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Kelsan again.

Good to hear, Kelsan! I'd bake you a hobbit pie if I could.

[Legonist]

HA. That's a bit of a loaded sentence. The role of the hunter in regards to other DPS needs to be established based on what other role the class provides.

In general, a class that fulfills a singular role should exceed the capabilities of more hybrid/utility classes in the shared role.

This post should be coated in gold and added to the hall of fame due to the fact that singular role classes have been neglected for a period of time.

[ColorSpecs]

Huh, my response was deleted. Man you mods are wayyyyy too adversarial.

In general, a class that fulfills a singular role should exceed the capabilities of more hybrid/utility classes in the shared role.

This was an awesome comment Kelsen; one hunters have been looking for from a dev for a long time. It was badass. And speaking for myself, its a relief to see a dev post this cause it means you get it.

[Belaeren]

In general, a class that fulfills a singular role should exceed the capabilities of more hybrid/utility classes in the shared role.

I hope you are not thinking that a Hunter has a singular role of DPS, and thus should have higher DPS output than an RK with dual roles of DPS and Healer. Because we RKs didn't sign up to be jack of all trades, master of none - that matters in selecting raid team composition. We don't want raid leaders to only bring Hunters and Minstrels because both are better in the new system (as an example) in DPS and Heal roles, respectively, than RK is in either.

IMO Hunter is dual role of DPS and CC, while RK is dual role of DPS and Healing.

[Vanweee]

unfortunately change a class a bit and either pve or pvp complain

personally pvp is as attractive to me as some of the meetings i attend at work. i want to enjoy the game, feel that im protecting the good vs Sauron's minions, assisting the same in defeating the enemy to the best of my ability, met people who want to save the world from darkness. not play vs a "bunch of nano blitzers with l33t stick skillz"

separate pvp and pve. do what ever you want to pvp i couldnt care but dont hamstring pve because of creeps complaints in the moors.

that being said as a non raiding casual player who is a lifer, i want to enjoy playing the game when im killing orcs. not watch as the million second animation finishes just before i retreat ...

my main in everquest is a ranger, it took 14 years before they had a place in the game that meant they were valued. please dont make the same mistake with hunters in lotro. class balance is borked, dont focus on end game and dont assume everyone wants instances. the latter is there because you shouldnt assume an 85 hunter has raid gear to be equal. i want to enjoy my time in game but not feel that i have to do something repeatedly to get the only gear that makes my class valid. people have options, its called life and you wont grow the business by alienating potential revenue sources.

[Lendas]

This post should be coated in gold and added to the hall of fame

this!



A quick question to Kelsan: Is there something in the works for mobile shooting?

thanks

[bfub467]

He's going to have to work a bit since champs can get up to 7-8k dps and tank while doing it but thank you for paying attention to the forum replies and responding, hunters haven't seen that in years

[Gagmuk]

As there are many good suggestions already. The only thing I can request which can be applied and should be applied to every class and not just limited to hunters.

When adjusting, revamping, or adding new skills to any class. Please do so in accordance to the PVE content as intended, As Lotro is not a PVP oriented based game. So if something is underpowered or overpowered do so in accordance to other classes.

IF the monster play side of things is under par or over par. they should be balanced and adjusted to the classes and pve content side of things. Adjusting classes to monster play content throws the balance out of whack between the classes and pve content in my opinion.

(Hypothetical situation of what I do not wish to see happening to any class)
Example: New content comes out. Players all head to the moors. Hunters start killing the monster players 1 shot 1 kill. So the monster players start complaining that hunters are overpowered. So turbine devs adjust hunter dps down so they are no longer 1 shot 1 kill on monster players. Then we suddenly get hunters complaining that their dps is way to low for PVE instanced content and no one wants them on their raids because they suddenly became worthless.

Thanks for reading my opinion.

[wireloose]

I agree the hunter class needs some tweaks. And some of those listed make sense, although making all of Taldeen's changes would be too much, imo. There are some I strongly agree with, and some with which I strongly disagree:

Heartseeker(Not enough dmg) - total agreement. HSis only really useful at devastate magnitude. The long induction time makes the crit and non-crit magnitudes lower dps than my average in normal rotation, even when the HS legacy is bumped way up. Using that extreme induction time for the minute chance of a devastate is a waste in my rotations and I no longer use HS.

Merciful Shot is the ONLY ranged corruption removal option we have. It's already annoying that a hunter can't help remove corruptions in the first half of a boss fight unless he runs into melee space. Reducing the Merciful Shot window to half (last 25% of health) means you might as well just take away the corruption removal. It's an odd design, anyway, having a corruption removal as part of a finishing shot, but....

Bloodarrow - get rid of it. It uses morale instead of power, but still costs focus points, and doesn't hit any harder than Improved Penetrating Shot. I removed it from my rotations rather than place any extra burden on raid healers.

Hail of Arrows - (trait) leave it alone. It's very useful to have a hunter in a raid traited for AOE.

Arrow Storm - (trait) leave it alone, unless of course you're going to make it more powerful. Same note as Hail of Arrows.

[Gabli]

I agree the hunter class needs some tweaks.

I think this must the one thing every single player who regularly takes part in group content as a Hunter will agree on

Heartseeker(Not enough dmg) - total agreement. HSis only really useful at devastate magnitude. The long induction time makes the crit and non-crit magnitudes lower dps than my average in normal rotation, even when the HS legacy is bumped way up. Using that extreme induction time for the minute chance of a devastate is a waste in my rotations and I no longer use HS.

I obviously agree with this. I believe that HeartSeeker's problem is that it is :
- Not incredibely damaging in comparison with other skill sequences you can fire in the same amount of time : it is on par with Swift Bow + Penetrating Shot (if all are non-critical/critical/devastating), and definitely not as good as Swift Bow + Blood Arrow when critical or devastating shots are considered.
- Our longest (damaging skill) induction, yet does not feed us focus. To be balanced with the rest of our skills, it should either stay a long induction but gives focus, or stay "focus-neutral" but be really more damaging than others induction shots (in terms of average damage per induction time)

It is a bit sad that right now the only way to make this skill usefull, is to alter it through a set bonus (Greater Erebor Bowmaster 4 pieces). Even more sad that we can't unlock it right now, but that is another problem

Merciful Shot is the ONLY ranged corruption removal option we have. It's already annoying that a hunter can't help remove corruptions in the first half of a boss fight unless he runs into melee space. Reducing the Merciful Shot window to half (last 25% of health) means you might as well just take away the corruption removal. It's an odd design, anyway, having a corruption removal as part of a finishing shot, but....

This is spot on. As far as I can remember, no other class has this kind of gating on their corruption removal skills. Hell, burglars can even do this from range if they craft themselves some daggers and yet we have to go melee ?
It is also a shame that regarding dps, Merciful Shot requires one class traits (Swift Mercy) to make it usefull.

Bloodarrow - get rid of it. It uses morale instead of power, but still costs focus points, and doesn't hit any harder than Improved Penetrating Shot. I removed it from my rotations rather than place any extra burden on raid healers.

Now you are trying to make me angry .
Blood Arrow is actually our best damaging skill ! If you have a good build (meaning, you are at critical chance cap in a raid environment), its special critical damage multiplier makes it extremely more powerful than Penetrating Shot.
I play with 4 red traits so I have +10% PS critical chance, and yet a simple Combat Analysis parse tells me that for any fight longer than 30sec, Blood Arrow is more efficient than Penetrating Shot (damage/shot).

Moreover, this is never an extra burden on raid healers : in a raid environment, most of the time you should be hiting a mob with a captain's Revealing Mark. This alone should be enough heal to compensate for the morale cost. So Blood Arrow is a more efficient dps skill, but it also helps power managment (who cares since U10, but still...)

[Kethean]

Hi Kalsan,

Notwithstanding all the wonderful suggestions already made.

Please return the two skills, Mounted tracking and Desperate Flight (in combat) while in the Moors.

These were removed from Hunters in the Ettenmoors and PvP some years ago as they were apparently OP? However many subsequent updates and changes have made their continued absence completely unnecessary.