The Last Straw for FreeToPlay

[cossieuk]

i will agree that they 'stated' the epic line would always be f2p. i don't believe you can find the words 'we promise' anywhere near that statement (if you can find 'we promise', you can eat your hat :P lol). people have a tendency to take simple statements like that as rock solid promises even though a promise was never implied or given. most also fail to take into consideration changing business environment, economic conditions and other factors and show a little understanding that conditions are no longer the same as when the original statement was made.

but yes, i agree that they at least need to come out and explain the rationale behind their decision to make this change. at the same time i'm pretty sure it would be difficult to word in a way as to not cause an uproar amongst the paying customer base....

Sapience posted this 2 years ago

I've actually seen someone complaining that we're living up to the promise we made that the epic story line will always be free to all players.

https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...48#post5676848

That to me is a promise that the epic story line will always be free.

So something has changed from this promise. Big battles are part of the epic story line and this is the reason it is not free. Well LI are part of the epic story line, skirmishes are part of the epic story line and mounted combat is part of the epic story line yet all players get at least some level of access to them all. Surely the big battles that are in the epic quests could be done by anyone but if you want to do them out of the quests then you need to buy the expansion.

[Gladr]

I may be wrong about this, but I think that the last 3 books of Vol. III will be like the epilogues in Mirkwood. The only way to finish some of the epilogues was to do the Mirkwood instances, which only came if you had purchased the Mirkwood X-pack. I wouldn't be surprised if the next X-pack, which will presumably start Vol. IV, is like Vol. II and Vol. III, which enable you to start them before you have finished the volumes before them.

[goldensilence]

Sapience posted this 2 years ago



https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...48#post5676848

That to me is a promise that the epic story line will always be free.

So something has changed from this promise. Big battles are part of the epic story line and this is the reason it is not free. Well LI are part of the epic story line, skirmishes are part of the epic story line and mounted combat is part of the epic story line yet all players get at least some level of access to them all. Surely the big battles that are in the epic quests could be done by anyone but if you want to do them out of the quests then you need to buy the expansion.

i would agree. that seems like a promise. so, hopefully and explanation will be forthcoming.

kudo's on the search. :P

[Radbug]

Egregious reneging on a promise - check!

Free to play to 85 - check!


Oh my, what side to choose...!

[Webgiant]

First of all: Vips dont get the epics too, you need to purchase HD.
Second: Why Turbine need to worry about f2p players? If you're Free2play you NEVER put ANY money in the game to help mantain it. IMO if you want to play every epic in the game and go till level cap (no matter how much grind you need to do) you need give some money to Turbine, you're using the awesome content Turbine do without help them keep the game going and still complain.....
Thanks SO much Turbine, the Epics should be a extra for who purchase the exp packs.

PS: Sorry if i'm being rude, but i cant understand someone complaining about a company dont giving the best type of quests the game has to offer for free since you never put a dolar to help them mantain the game. It's like complain with Ferrari for not giving you the best car they have for free....

The whole point of letting the F2P folks into the Epic Questline was that poor people often have friends who like MMOs like LOTRO and can afford subscription fees and/or TP purchases. F2P-ers play the game, get their financially slightly better off friends to play, and then those people sometimes upgrade their F2P friends to VIP to have them as skirmish partners. $30 for two months of support from one guy, who has been surviving mostly by killing stuff quickly and with a minimum of health care needs, is well spent money.

A better car analogy is that Turbine is like a car company requiring that you buy the Ferrari before they'll even let you have a test drive. Those VIP Access fees are non-refundable, of course, unlike a purchased Ferrari.

Word Of Mouth Advertising is often ridiculed but, frankly, its the best advertising around, and any company which deliberately borks Word Of Mouth Advertising is in for a world of trouble. Word Of Mouth Advertising costs just as much as putting F2P folks on a "limited access" online queue and letting them have access to one major questline, the Epic. One can only hope that eventually Turbine--perhaps this is the plan all along, to boost F2P interest--hands off HD Epic access to the F2P folks after a few months of VIP-only access to the BB of the Epic.

[cossieuk]

It is not just the free players that appreciate the epic quests being available to all, premium players also benefit from it. The whole idea of premium is to buy what you want when you want but if you start blocking access to the epic quest lines to those that dont buy certain zones or expansions, then players may be forced to buy zones they dont want in order to continue the epic quest.

[Malindruel]

Just to clear up one thing:

F2P-, Premium- and VIP-players are all in the same situation. All have to buy Helms Deep to be able to finish the epics. No one gets it for free.

Regards
/T

That is wrong in so many ways

The Epic Quests have been FREE to ALL Accounts since the launch of Free to Play
Why are the F2P'ers (AND PREMIUM players) being forced to pay for them now?

You didn't have to Buy Moria Expac to complete Vol 2
You didn't have to buy the Rohan Expac to do 1st half of Vol 3

You only needed to buy the Expacs if you wanted the normal Quests, Deeds, Instances, fluff etc....

[Hundolf]

That is wrong in so many ways

The Epic Quests have been FREE to ALL Accounts since the launch of Free to Play
Why are the F2P'ers (AND PREMIUM players) being forced to pay for them now?

You didn't have to Buy Moria Expac to complete Vol 2
You didn't have to buy the Rohan Expac to do 1st half of Vol 3

You only needed to buy the Expacs if you wanted the normal Quests, Deeds, Instances, fluff etc....

When F2P was released only volume 1 was free to all accounts. It was when they started getting ready for RoI that they opened moria and volume 2 to F2P accounts.

[Crell_1]

That is wrong in so many ways

The Epic Quests have been FREE to ALL Accounts since the launch of Free to Play ...
You didn't have to Buy Moria Expac to complete Vol 2
..

Wrong.
Originally only the Volume 1 Epic was free. You could only level to 50 without buying the Moria Expansion.

You had to buy Moria to get your level cap raised to Level 60, and access the Moria Landscape, and quests.

You had to buy Mirkwood to get your level cap raised to Level 65 and access to the end of Volume 2 Epic. EVEN TODAY you need to buy Mirkwood to get access to complete Volume 2's Epilogue quests (SG).

At a later point, shortly after launch (I want to say Update 1 or 2 post F2P), they removed this restriction and stated that the epic and level-cap would be free from here out. The official statement was made that "The Epilogues are NOT a part of the epic" (so as to avoid having to give away access to SG)

I've actually seen someone complaining that we're living up to the promise we made that the epic story line will always be free to all players. I'm not sure what to do with that complaint at all.

https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...48#post5676848

Obviously things have changed quite a lot in the past 2 years.

[Malindruel]

It was already confirmed by Sapience that the reason the Epic Quests are tied to the HD purchase is because the Big/Epic Battles are integrated into those quests. This is their number one sell for HD and they cannot give it away for free.

There are ways around that tie-in that have probably not even been looked at

Character reaches Battle part of the Book
Completes the Battle Chapter

Cannot partake in the "Repeatable" part of said chapter unless they buy the Expac

Basically you can do each part of the Epic Battles for the Books ONCE per character

[Kaynith]

What is wrong with people wanting to do what they have been able to do for the last few years, and something that Turbine promised they would always be able to do and play the epic quest line free of charge.

the attitude. not realizing that they've enjoyed hundreds of hours of free play. not being thankful for that. instead whining about having to now consider paying to help support the development of new content. not realizing that the people developing this game, marketing this game, all have families to support and don't work for free.

When Rise of Isengard came out, I didn't buy it right away. I didn't have the 'gaming dollars' at the time. I went through the epics, liked most of the expansion zones (Minus the Stunland and Lagtrev aspects...), and thus, a bit later I purchased the Legendary edition of RoI. When Rohan came out, same thing. I did the epics, and some weeks later, I purchased the Legendary edition of RoR.

In each of these cases I was able to 'test drive' part of the expansion and see if I liked it or not. Able to experience the epics, and get drawn into the story.

Now, ALL of the quests, are gated behind having to purchase HD. My epic story ends at the Entwash. And there it'll stay, likely for a very long time.

With no epics to play to draw you into the story, and no trials of 'Big Battles', folks are left to purchase something 100% sight unseen. And a lot of folks have a problem with that.

So it's not just the whole 'free to play' aspect of it, nor people expecting a free lunch. I've purchased every single darn one of these expansions to date. I think you'll find true 'freeloaders' very few and far between. Most people end up purchasing TP somewhere along the line, or outright purchasing the expansions.

And there's nothing wrong with expecting a company to keep it's promises and stay true to their word... and everything wrong with letting them totally off the hook when they don't. It's a matter of principle and ethics.

[Khafar]

Are people really going to complain because "only" 85 levels of epic story are free? I suppose they are. Turbine doesn't actually want for very many free players to stick around that long without paying a dime - it costs them very real money, and by the time someone is level 85 I think it's perfectly reasonable for them to fish or cut bait (or TP grind for many weeks to buy an expansion). Losing a long-time free player because of this will actually save? them money, not cost it.

The situation is only a little different for "Premium" players (like me)... Turbine needs to make a profit on us too, and no, it doesn't really matter if you or I spent $200 5 years ago (or whatever). That money is long spent on developing and running the game. The costs to run the game are incurred monthly, just like they used to be. The payment methods may have changed, but you can absolutely bet that they'll keep trying to get people to spend money this month. Or at least this year.

The only people who are paying their way these days are A) subscribers, and B) Premium members who are paying as much as subscribers. In fact, those players are paying well more than their fair share - they're subsidizing all of the long-term free players, plus the Premium players who don't spend much. I was a freeloader last year, paying for the expansion out of my lifetimer's stipend. However, this year I'm ponying up $100... if I want this game to keep running, I need to support it financially.

Khafar

[Hundolf]

One other thing to remember about RoR. Mounted combat was the new system, similar to big battles. Mounted combat was vital for the epic story line too. So turbine gave f2p accounts 1 version of the warsteed without purchasing the expansion. That allowed people to do the epic and try out mounted combat at the same time. The people suggesting that the epic should be free and the helms deep battles are only run 1 time per account are on the right track. I will not be surprised if Turbine changes their tune and implements it that way. I'd rep people...but you know... so virtual high fives all around.

[Kaynith]

However, this year I'm ponying up $100... if I want this game to keep running, I need to support it financially.

Khafar

I usually agree with ye on most things. This isn't one of them. I think ye've got it a bit reversed. If they want to keep this game running, they need to do BETTER. Then, the financial support will naturally follow. That, and stop ticking off customers en masse and start treating us as people instead of numbers. I spend $ on TP several times a year and I buy the expansions with cash. But as I've said, they're getting nothing more from me until both treatment of people, and quality of product improve. So, you do as you see fit, and others will do the same.

Here's a question for ye though... during RoI and RoR and the pre-orders and such when the various fiascoes were happening, do you think that if we all just shut up and threw our money at Turbine that it would have changed anything? Or were the changes made because people said, no, this isn't acceptable, and no soup for you until you've made it right? Think on that.

[PJ.]

Are people really going to complain because "only" 85 levels of epic story are free? I suppose they are. Turbine doesn't actually want for very many free players to stick around that long without paying a dime - it costs them very real money, and by the time someone is level 85 I think it's perfectly reasonable for them to fish or cut bait (or TP grind for many weeks to buy an expansion). Losing a long-time free player because of this will actually save? them money, not cost it.

The situation is only a little different for "Premium" players (like me)... Turbine needs to make a profit on us too, and no, it doesn't really matter if you or I spent $200 5 years ago (or whatever). That money is long spent on developing and running the game. The costs to run the game are incurred monthly, just like they used to be. The payment methods may have changed, but you can absolutely bet that they'll keep trying to get people to spend money this month. Or at least this year.

The only people who are paying their way these days are A) subscribers, and B) Premium members who are paying as much as subscribers. In fact, those players are paying well more than their fair share - they're subsidizing all of the long-term free players, plus the Premium players who don't spend much. I was a freeloader last year, paying for the expansion out of my lifetimer's stipend. However, this year I'm ponying up $100... if I want this game to keep running, I need to support it financially.

Khafar

No, I think people are complaining because they were told they will always be free, well words to that very effect. I would totally agree that if they said most of them will be then the fact you can get them to level 85 would have indeed been great IMHO

[DelgonTheWise]

i would agree. that seems like a promise. so, hopefully and explanation will be forthcoming.

kudo's on the search. :P

Just put it there with "convenience, not advantage" and other classics of the genre.
Or, to put it differently, "I am altering the deal. Pray I don't alter it any further."

Anyway, I'm not all that outraged by the change myself. If you are into the game enough to get to level 85, you've gotten quite a bit of "F2P value" out of it. I have a lifetime subscription, but that doesn't get me anything extra here. Feels a bit like a change that should be better explained, but the root explanation is obviously "revenue", so what is the point I guess?

[OldMadeOfLions]

I'm glad you guys enjoy the Epic Story! We spend a lot of time and effort making it, and for me, getting to play in the Professor's sandbox with so many of his creations is an absolute joy. We had a few options available to us when the time came to figure out the contents of the Helm's Deep expansion, and we chose the one that honestly seems like it provides the best value for you guys. I was always a little saddened when players would make lists of 'What am I getting when I buy this expansion?' because they always end with something along the lines of 'And not the Epic... you get that anyway!' It does seem to diminish the value proposition of the expansion when you can experience its featured event or location without picking it up.

We're a Free-to-Play game now, so obviously that requires a change in approach. We gradually modified the way the Epic worked. People forget now, but when the transition to F2P happened the existing expansion packs didn't have free Epic Books - you had to pick up Mines of Moria in order to do its six Epic Books, and if you didn't have Mirkwood then Volume II Book 9 was also blocked away. As the level cap increased and we got further and further into the game (and further along in our story's timeline), we loosened restrictions on what you needed in order to experience those Epic Books. You could play them for free, and you could solo them (if you wanted - except for the Volume II Epilogue. That one's on me, guys. Sorry!)

But those were expansions that were already out at the time the F2P transition happened. In fact, when we were developing Rise of Isengard, I was still designing the Epic under the assumption that it would only be available for players who purchased the expansion. I mean, I was sending you into the ring of Isengard, and into the past to experience it when it was still pristine, and onto the roof of Orthanc, and into the dungeons underneath... basically, no expense was spared. But if you could see all these iconic aspects of Isengard without buying the expansion, well, what were you paying for?

I had a choice to make. We could make the Epic in such a way that it avoided all those iconic locations that are part of the 'expansion content,' and that way the Epic could remain separate from the expansion and stay free. Or we could keep it the way it is and charge for the Epic as part of the expansion, so you only get to play the Epic in Isengard if you bought the Isengard expansion. But there was a third choice, and it's the one we went with: I could refuse to change the Epic, keeping it in Isengard with all of the iconic things and happenings there, and we keep it free. It's certainly the biggest public relations win - I mean, who doesn't love free stuff? We were adored as heroes of the people, and life was good.

But there would come a time in the future when the decision wasn't so easy. What if there were a system looming on the horizon that would be the centerpiece of an expansion, such that everything was tied into it, and the Epic Story needed to interweave with it in such a way that we couldn't separate the two, but we also couldn't give you the entire system for free? Ah, I'm sure our Future Selves will handle it.

Well, here we are in the future, confronted with a system that allows you to experience the Battle of the Hornburg in all its rainy glory, and an Epic Story that would be doing you a disservice if it didn't tell the story of that battle. There are players who play the Epic even without buying the expansions, and I am sorry that this is a change for you guys. But it's a change that serves to reward the players that do pick up the expansion, and makes the expansion a better deal, more worth your time and your money. This is just an expansion change for now - I'm hoping we can keep the Epic Story free in other updates. But for big expansions I'd expect that it'll be featured as one of the Things You Get on the 'virtual box.'

This would all probably have shown up in a Dev Diary at some point, but as the Epic Story Guy I wanted you to know some of the process of what led to this decision. It's okay - I play a Guardian on the Live servers, I can handle any vitriol. But play nice for Sapience's sake.

MoL

[Hundolf]

I forgot the best thing about RoR that was free to all players. The soundtrack composed by Chance Thomas. I'm sad that he isn't back to compose more music for Helm's Deep.

[Aineas.]

i will agree that they 'stated' the epic line would always be f2p. i don't believe you can find the words 'we promise' anywhere near that statement (if you can find 'we promise', you can eat your hat :P lol). people have a tendency to take simple statements like that as rock solid promises even though a promise was never implied or given. most also fail to take into consideration changing business environment, economic conditions and other factors and show a little understanding that conditions are no longer the same as when the original statement was made.

but yes, i agree that they at least need to come out and explain the rationale behind their decision to make this change. at the same time i'm pretty sure it would be difficult to word in a way as to not cause an uproar amongst the paying customer base....

they don't need to use the words "promise" since in the common world the phrase "Always" relates to the same thing... Always is invalid since Always cannot be stated anytime anywhere. But I understand the OP since they did promise the epic line will Always be f2p. They didn't use the word promise, but Always pretty much implies it. Despite I agree with that nothing is solid as a rock, the way turbine stated it suggests it, therefore now you get the question to turbine to actually live up to that promise So no promise as you requested, but still a promise....

And I find it awesome to see MadeofLions actually explains it openly on the forums. Great job and very much appreciated! Something I've been missing from most of turbine so awesome to see it happen.

[Mirnir]

Thanks for the explanation MoL. Although some will never like it, it seems the only sensible thing to do.

[Belnavar]

I'm glad you guys enjoy the Epic Story! We spend a lot of time and effort making it, and for me, getting to play in the Professor's sandbox with so many of his creations is an absolute joy. We had a few options available to us when the time came to figure out the contents of the Helm's Deep expansion, and we chose the one that honestly seems like it provides the best value for you guys. I was always a little saddened when players would make lists of 'What am I getting when I buy this expansion?' because they always end with something along the lines of 'And not the Epic... you get that anyway!' It does seem to diminish the value proposition of the expansion when you can experience its featured event or location without picking it up.

You're not the only one who thought that. Ever since key elements of the expansions became free to everyone, it made people question exactly what they were spending their money on, to the extent that some people would dismiss purchasing of an expansion, since X, Y, and Z that came with it didn't require a purchase at all.

The development time, energy and money spent on the Epic for an expansion is presumably significantly more than that required for the Epic in a free update throughout the year, especially given that there are three books involved. This investment is made, again presumably, on the premise that money earned from expansion sales will pay for it. It is thus, I imagine, something factored into the expansion price, even if it ends up being discounted afterwards as one of the features.

Personally I think the same about the level cap and crafting tiers. On one hand, these are obviously expansion related elements, and usually typically require an expansion purchase. On the other hand, as a player, I would prefer to see as many people as possible at the level cap in order to better improve that experience. Juggling F2P with earning money is obviously a delicate balancing act.

As it stands, LOTRO already offers tons of content for free, way more than any other game I've encountered. In fact, you can even grind TP to buy the content that isn't free, and I know some players who have done so, never spending a cent on the game. It disappoints me, however, that players who could afford to pay, and who perhaps pay for all kinds of other things they spend less time on in life (cinema tickets, anyone?), do not make any contribution to financing the game. I would encourage those who support the game to spare the cash for an expansion like this, if they can reasonably afford to do so, in order to ensure its long-term viability and success.

-Bel

[Hundolf]

I'm glad you guys enjoy the Epic Story! We spend a lot of time and effort making it, and for me, getting to play in the Professor's sandbox with so many of his creations is an absolute joy. We had a few options available to us when the time came to figure out the contents of the Helm's Deep expansion, and we chose the one that honestly seems like it provides the best value for you guys. I was always a little saddened when players would make lists of 'What am I getting when I buy this expansion?' because they always end with something along the lines of 'And not the Epic... you get that anyway!' It does seem to diminish the value proposition of the expansion when you can experience its featured event or location without picking it up.

We're a Free-to-Play game now, so obviously that requires a change in approach. We gradually modified the way the Epic worked. People forget now, but when the transition to F2P happened the existing expansion packs didn't have free Epic Books - you had to pick up Mines of Moria in order to do its six Epic Books, and if you didn't have Mirkwood then Volume II Book 9 was also blocked away. As the level cap increased and we got further and further into the game (and further along in our story's timeline), we loosened restrictions on what you needed in order to experience those Epic Books. You could play them for free, and you could solo them (if you wanted - except for the Volume II Epilogue. That one's on me, guys. Sorry!)

But those were expansions that were already out at the time the F2P transition happened. In fact, when we were developing Rise of Isengard, I was still designing the Epic under the assumption that it would only be available for players who purchased the expansion. I mean, I was sending you into the ring of Isengard, and into the past to experience it when it was still pristine, and onto the roof of Orthanc, and into the dungeons underneath... basically, no expense was spared. But if you could see all these iconic aspects of Isengard without buying the expansion, well, what were you paying for?

I had a choice to make. We could make the Epic in such a way that it avoided all those iconic locations that are part of the 'expansion content,' and that way the Epic could remain separate from the expansion and stay free. Or we could keep it the way it is and charge for the Epic as part of the expansion, so you only get to play the Epic in Isengard if you bought the Isengard expansion. But there was a third choice, and it's the one we went with: I could refuse to change the Epic, keeping it in Isengard with all of the iconic things and happenings there, and we keep it free. It's certainly the biggest public relations win - I mean, who doesn't love free stuff? We were adored as heroes of the people, and life was good.

But there would come a time in the future when the decision wasn't so easy. What if there were a system looming on the horizon that would be the centerpiece of an expansion, such that everything was tied into it, and the Epic Story needed to interweave with it in such a way that we couldn't separate the two, but we also couldn't give you the entire system for free? Ah, I'm sure our Future Selves will handle it.

Well, here we are in the future, confronted with a system that allows you to experience the Battle of the Hornburg in all its rainy glory, and an Epic Story that would be doing you a disservice if it didn't tell the story of that battle. There are players who play the Epic even without buying the expansions, and I am sorry that this is a change for you guys. But it's a change that serves to reward the players that do pick up the expansion, and makes the expansion a better deal, more worth your time and your money. This is just an expansion change for now - I'm hoping we can keep the Epic Story free in other updates. But for big expansions I'd expect that it'll be featured as one of the Things You Get on the 'virtual box.'

This would all probably have shown up in a Dev Diary at some point, but as the Epic Story Guy I wanted you to know some of the process of what led to this decision. It's okay - I play a Guardian on the Live servers, I can handle any vitriol. But play nice for Sapience's sake.

MoL

Thanks for the response. My only issue was that it was promised to be a free part of this game. I have bought every expansion and will pick this one up too, eventually. I just don't like being lied to. Take a look at SWTOR, they give basically the entire original game away for free. Now they are giving the expansion away for free to subs (several months after release). The one thing people fall back on in LOTRO is that you can grind TP and buy everything. Keep in mind each land mass has less TP / deed than the previous. That is how I would explain LOTROs F2P, free to level 30 and then grind-fest to get any other content. LOTRO may have been one of the innovators of the F2P MMO, but it feels like you're being left in the dust by your competitors. I'd like to see this game thrive. Going back on promises isn't a way to make that happen.

[Crell_1]

I'm glad you guys enjoy the Epic Story! We spend a lot of time and effort making it, and for me, getting to play in the Professor's sandbox with so many of his creations is an absolute joy. We had a few options available to us when the time came to figure out the contents of the Helm's Deep expansion, and we chose the one that honestly seems like it provides the best value for you guys. I was always a little saddened when players would make lists of 'What am I getting when I buy this expansion?' because they always end with something along the lines of 'And not the Epic... you get that anyway!' It does seem to diminish the value proposition of the expansion when you can experience its featured event or location without picking it up.

...

But there was a third choice, and it's the one we went with: I could refuse to change the Epic, keeping it in Isengard with all of the iconic things and happenings there, and we keep it free. It's certainly the biggest public relations win - I mean, who doesn't love free stuff? We were adored as heroes of the people, and life was good.

To me, the Epic was the biggest advocate for falling in love with the area and buying it when they wouldnt otherwise. One of the reasons I chose to support Turbine by buying the Legendary expansion for Isengard was that I recognize the sheer volume of work you and your team puts into the Epic and still gives it away to encourage people to get involved with Middle-Earth. No longer do we have this story to keep pushing us on through dark times (some of us finaincially) to help keep us engaged with the world and our friends so we'll return and support it when we have cash.

But there would come a time in the future when the decision wasn't so easy. What if there were a system looming on the horizon that would be the centerpiece of an expansion, such that everything was tied into it, and the Epic Story needed to interweave with it in such a way that we couldn't separate the two, but we also couldn't give you the entire system for free? Ah, I'm sure our Future Selves will handle it.

Mounted Combat is an example of a system that everything was tied into. You managed to not give us this entire system for free.

Well, here we are in the future, confronted with a system that allows you to experience the Battle of the Hornburg in all its rainy glory, and an Epic Story that would be doing you a disservice if it didn't tell the story of that battle. There are players who play the Epic even without buying the expansions, and I am sorry that this is a change for you guys. But it's a change that serves to reward the players that do pick up the expansion, and makes the expansion a better deal, more worth your time and your money. This is just an expansion change for now - I'm hoping we can keep the Epic Story free in other updates. But for big expansions I'd expect that it'll be featured as one of the Things You Get on the 'virtual box.'

If Big-Battles weren't a system you could take part in from level 10, I suspect it would have been much easier to say 'The Level-Cap raise isn't free'. People who want to PvP have to buy the expansion. People who want to reach the level where Big-Battles start have to buy the expansion.

Another thing that really gets me as a player here, it means I have no way to introduce big-battles to someone to try, and see if they'll like it enough to pick up the expansion and return to Lotro. I feel this decision has cost me the rest of my kin.

This would all probably have shown up in a Dev Diary at some point, but as the Epic Story Guy I wanted you to know some of the process of what led to this decision. It's okay - I play a Guardian on the Live servers, I can handle any vitriol. But play nice for Sapience's sake.

MoL

I really wish +Sapience could have held back his announcement until such time as you could have made this post. I hope that the players will see your love of the Epic, and the life you've brought to such iconic places in the past.

If the intent is to try and keep the non-expansion Epics going forward free, they will need appropriate on-ramps. I hope that you can find a way to make these stories self-contained enough to be remain enjoyable!

[cossieuk]

If you do manage to make the epic free in future updates, doesn't this mean that these books will not follow on directly from the ones that are not free since you cant assume everyone will know what is happening.

I understand that Big Battles are central to the epic quests and as such they are not free, but wasn't mounted combat central to the epic books that came with the last expansion.

[mr_toad]

*passes out tea, lemonade, milk, cookies, cake, and other beverages in a spirit of friendliness*

OK, lifetime subscriber here weighing in. First off, I have nothing against pure F2P players, nor anything against premium players who keep things very cheap (I'll call them "low-rent premiums," the kinda player that will only spend $5-$10 ever on this game out of pocket). I think that F2P/"low rent premium" players who log in and keep the servers populated are a boost to this game. I think that a lot of premium players end up spending as much if not more than life time players and regular subscribers. So I think that the F2P model and the pure F2P and "low rent premium" players that it brings are awesome.

OK, having said all that, the complaints in this thread are just about almost beyond bearable. I've faithfully read nearly every single developer post and Turbine news release since the summer of 2007. Never, ever, ever has Turbine made a promise to keep any part of their game free. You people quoting dev posts from years ago are really stretching things beyond all believably. If Turbine were to say, "OK, F2P no longer has access to any regions outside the original SoA release zones" they would be entirely within their rights to do so.

A game like LOTRO requires the efforts of hundreds of highly skilled people to create and maintain it. LOTRO requires vast investments in hardware infrastructure to deliver its services. If you want to play, pay. If not, don't whine that you aren't getting something for free. Like Khafar said, if you want this game to keep going, support it financially. $40 would buy me a cheap dinner and movie night out that might last 4 hours. $40 will buy you the base Helms Deep expac and will give you far, far more than 4 hours worth of entertainment.