Hobbits to Isengard - Q/A with Sapience notes on what was said

[Danchir]

I disagree with this assessment of things. I can't get behind the idea that we should pay more for fluff than we do for actual substance.

I myself am also facing certain difficulties when trying to get behind this idea. Yet it exists in full power all over the gaming world since not really yesterday, LOTRO included. Single cosmetic outfits in some places are sold at the price of an update/expansion.
While getting behind it may be not easy, I have no problems accepting it. And I was actually quite fond of it, as far as the mounts are concerned. It was my own way to additionally support the game and I enjoyed it. Then things in the neighborhood shifted and one day I came to the conclusion that even content here isn't worth my buck, let alone fluff. Things change, that's life, but anyway the super expensive fluff is part of that show.

As for 'golden middle spots' that is a very subjective concept. One person's 'golden middle spot' is another person's outrageous joke. A more accurate statement would be "you can please some of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time."

I again agree here. Your words show us why statistics is a good thing to have under your pillow. It can show you how to please efficiently, i.e. the max people with min effort, what 'some of the people' or 'some of the time' actually means, and other such magical tricks. While there will always be unhappy folks, the point is to maximize the happy ones. 'Golden middle' doesn't have to mean 'everyone is happy'. But it kinda should mean 'most are happy'. But what I see these days is that the long expected 'revival' of LOTRO is not taking place. And I'm expecting (albeit with indifferent, vague curiosity) what will be the pricing of the new class, because something as simple as that can speak tons.

[frickinmuck]

And I'm expecting (albeit with indifferent, vague curiosity) what will be the pricing of the new class, because something as simple as that can speak tons.

All that something like that can say is that it's the price Turbine decided on. There's really not much more to it than that, from our perspective. Trying to extrapolate anything more would be utterly pointless and speculative.

Any discussion of price at this point is 100% speculative anyway. At this point I'm just talking about what I would expect to pay based on 1] what I pay for other things in LotRO and 2] what the real value is to me. Like I said, $20 is less than a movie & popcorn in a theatre, it's about the price of a decent bottle of wine. For potentially hours and hours of enjoyment? The value to me is clear. Anyone who's asked what they'd expect to pay, or what value something like that might have for them, would likely have a totally different answer. In the end Turbine will decide on the price based on whatever information they have, various business/marketing considerations, etc.

I agree that it could end up being priced even more than that - that's something I could see happening, too. Then that gets into a discussion of the whole level 50 thing and I don't even want to get into that. There are dozens of reasons I totally hate the idea of a level 50 start. It's a bummer they are starting it at 50. If there's anything that could make me decide not to buy it, it's that. Forget the price.

Anyway, it is interesting to hear people's opinions on pricing. I think a lot of that often comes down to IRL economic situations, personal expectations, and how happy someone is with the game and how much time/interest they have in digging deeper into it.

[Comstrike]

• "Rowan – This is a system they are developing out and building on, so they want to introduce additional features in the future, like collections of pets, groups of pets that you can pick up and when you have all the pets together then you get an additional reward or pet."

I can see this.

Collective five keys that let you summon pet cats, each in different colors. Red, green, yellow, blue, and black. Then you could form one big cat pet which could wield a mighty weapon, the “Blazing Shrew!”

[frickinmuck]

I can see this.

Collective five keys that let you summon pet cats, each in different colors. Red, green, yellow, blue, and black. Then you could form one big cat pet which could wield a mighty weapon, the “Blazing Shrew!”

Petformers!!

Maybe if you get all the pets in a category, you can summon them all at once! GAHHH that would be so cool.

I want a litter of kittens that follow me around and mewl all day.

[Danchir]

More like Voltron, actually.

Anyway, I don't want to deviate more for pricing etc. I just wanted to mention about the expensive gaming fluff.
But have no doubts that pricing speaks more than 'that's what they decided', even to people outside of the system that takes the decision. In the case of this game, it started with HD (or perhaps Wildermore) and the 'message' is going on since then, new classes or not. I don't want to provoke a specific response now or anything, suffice to say the 'golden middle' is quite not found at this point, one aspect of the game or another. Time will show how this will end.

[frickinmuck]

But have no doubts that pricing speaks more than 'that's what they decided', even to people outside of the system that takes the decision. In the case of this game, it started with HD (or perhaps Wildermore) and the 'message' is going on since then, new classes or not. I don't want to provoke a specific response now or anything, suffice to say the 'golden middle' is quite not found at this point, one aspect of the game or another. Time will show how this will end.

More often than not a 'message' is something that happens on the receiving end, not on the transmitting end. People read into things based on where their own head is at. It's human nature. If someone disdains Bill and thinks he's an idiot, then everything he says will sound absurd and annoying. If someone thinks Bill is a shrewd, manipulative bully, those same things that seemed dumb to one person will come across as nefarious or threatening to another. If someone is in love with Bill and thinks he's the coolest guy on the planet, they're going to see everything he says as totally awesome and clever and witty.

How a person interprets something says a heck of a lot more about where their head is at, than it could ever say about anyone or anything else. Someone who is excited about the game is going to interpret a price very differently than someone who feels they have a bone to pick. That's just the subjective nature of most of life.

I would argue that, for this reason alone, the 'golden middle' is a complete myth.

[Rowan]

• "Rowan – This is a system they are developing out and building on, so they want to introduce additional features in the future, like collections of pets, groups of pets that you can pick up and when you have all the pets together then you get an additional reward or pet."

I can see this.

Collective five keys that let you summon pet cats, each in different colors. Red, green, yellow, blue, and black. Then you could form one big cat pet which could wield a mighty weapon, the “Blazing Shrew!”

Busted. Now we need to change the design.

[Danchir]

More often than not a 'message' is something that happens on the receiving end, not on the transmitting end.

Bad choice of word on my side, then. We'll blame my English and leave it at that, rather than going into semantics. If my 'message' doesn't reach you though, that's another matter altogether.

Nice metaphor for Bill and all but not everything is so subjective, really. And you can learn a lot from reading between the lines. So... observe carefully, if you wish. Choosing not to is also a valid option. This has nothing to do with 'conspiracy theories' - another famous forum strategy for dismissing, works here and in the kindergarten.

How a person interprets something says a heck of a lot more about where their head is at, than it could ever say about anyone or anything else.

You limit your thinking with such generalizations. It can 'tell you' a lot about one, few, or all of these.

The 'golden middle' is not a myth. It refers to Turbine the same way 'the land' was related to the people in 'Waterworld' - it has to exist somewhere, it's just that is so unknown where the heck is that.
Jibber-jabber put aside, let's see what 'middle' they'll manage to strike with the new class hit - the golden, the silver, or the brownish.

[frickinmuck]

Various comments

This discussion has been getting more and more abstract to the point where it has lost all meaning. To put my position more plainly: players often claim that they can somehow "interpret" the actions and decisions of Turbine to mean this that or the other thing. They are welcome to do so, but I am just as welcome to disregard it as pointless speculation. All that we can know about something we have zero inside info on is, "the price is x dollars." Nothing more, nothing less. Any claim otherwise, like I said, is baseless.

[Thurallor]

If "reading between the lines" is off the table, then how are we ever going to fill this forum up and crash its hard drive?

[Beaniemooch]

I think speculation, whether about price or skills or classes or whatever, can be both entertaining and informative. It allows people to put forth ideas on what they think is reasonable (even if it isn't) and gives Turbine an idea of which way the wind blows. Or, in the case of the Transformer Kitty, you can TOTALLY blow their design schematic open to the public and now we'll probably NEVER get it. Geesh.

If we only spoke in terms of what we knew for certain it would be a darn quiet forum. And not nearly as fun.

[frickinmuck]

If "reading between the lines" is off the table, then how are we ever going to fill this forum up and crash its hard drive?

Hehe, you do have a point there!!

I think speculation, whether about price or skills or classes or whatever, can be both entertaining and informative. It allows people to put forth ideas on what they think is reasonable (even if it isn't) and gives Turbine an idea of which way the wind blows. Or, in the case of the Transformer Kitty, you can TOTALLY blow their design schematic open to the public and now we'll probably NEVER get it. Geesh.

If we only spoke in terms of what we knew for certain it would be a darn quiet forum. And not nearly as fun.

I think speculation and prediction is definitely interesting and informative. After all, I've been partaking in it myself. I just think it's really important for us to remember that's what it is - pure speculation. As soon as I see claims of omniscience, it's a bit buzzkillington for me.

[TKH]

IMO, the Beorning may have the TP price of Gift of the Valar. Why is that? Because the class is this year "expansion" itself, which comes along with something similar to Gift of the Valar that allows players to skip the first 50 levels, and maybe along with some landscape regions too!

[marmi]

IMO, the Beorning may have the TP price of Gift of the Valar. Why is that? Because the class is this year "expansion" itself, which comes along with something similar to Gift of the Valar that allows players to skip the first 50 levels, and maybe along with some landscape regions too!

IMO, the main reason they decided Beornings will start at lvl50 is to justify price around 5k TP, so they can say we basically get new class (and maybe additional character slot) for free!!!, we need only pay for Gift of the Valar.

Thank you Frick for your hard work, I wouldn't be able to know all this because my English is too weak to understand everything I HEAR.
You say a theatre ticket or bottle of wine is 20$ for you. Well, I pay like 5-7$ for these and it's still 'something' for me (but I pay more than in US for hardware, gas and many other things and you don't want to know my salary...). Of course I understand Turbine is US company and prices are appropriate for US/Germany/UK market and I don't complain, just wanted to point it out.

[frickinmuck]

The next Q&A post is up for the Dwarf runs, starting later this month. If anyone wants to volunteer to do one of the transcripts for the run, the schedule is up there now. Let me know if there's any particular date you are interested in. Thanks!

[Griffy]

I think speculation, whether about price or skills or classes or whatever, can be both entertaining and informative. It allows people to put forth ideas on what they think is reasonable (even if it isn't) and gives Turbine an idea of which way the wind blows. Or, in the case of the Transformer Kitty,

Dagnabbit Moochy, it's Kitty Voltron™, get it right! *smooch*

...you can TOTALLY blow their design schematic open to the public and now we'll probably NEVER get it. Geesh.

Now I haz a sad. I was just going to tally how much to put on a prepaid card... But if this doesn't comes to fruition...

Busted. Now we need to change the design.

Looking forward to the redesign Rowan.
Yes, if this forum didn't have its hypothesizes, guesses, downright misleading teasers, twists, turns and quirks, it'd just be another forum to skim by, go ho hum, and move onto another. I do spend a bit of time guessing how much I'd be willing to spend on stuff discovered on Bullroarer, way too often. Or if I can do without. They've recently gotten me to part with TP. (And NO it Was NOT the overpriced (imo) WARSTEED (&outfit) dye packs. *Note* Account-wide (server-wide?) and we can start talking.)

PS. Frickin, I haven't yet voiced my Thank You for all the transcribing work. I wasn't able to catch more than 2 or 3 of the runs. I ran my session play horse (twice) during the Elendilmir run, and was disappointed I couldn't find the stream working very well, and after, there was no record of the stream due to whatever twitch tweaks were made. Congrats on the title, well earned! *+Kudospoints*

PSS. Already forgot my PSS. nvm

[Beaniemooch]

Dagnabbit Moochy, it's Kitty Voltron™, get it right! *smooch*

Now I haz a sad. I was just going to tally how much to put on a prepaid card... But if this doesn't comes to fruition...

PSS. Already forgot my PSS. nvm

Griffy hon, I was gifting you the Kitty Voltron as a present, but guess not. Sigh, spoilsports....

Your PSS was probably more of a PS than a PSS, because by the time you got to the PSS you'd already seen a new cosmetic and were.... SQUIRREL! I need to pop over to E and say hi soon.

[Sapience]

Because the TTHTI runs are over and there will be no more updates to this thread, it's best to close it. Frick has already started a Moria thread for the new event.