Names in Middle-Earth, Quick Guide

[Berephon]

I've created a Kinship called Uruve Ohtai, it's a Quenya title...is anyone able to tell me if i've translated this correctly? It's suppose to mean Fiery Warriors.

Oi...sorry. Quenya is way out of my feeble league. Not too many solid sources on it.

[Berephon]

I'm almost afraid to ask this, but I will.

Does Forjo translate to anything? It's not based on anything LOTR -- I made it up a few years ago for another game. It is based on something personal, but I'd like to know if it means anything in a Tolkien language.

Awesome thread, by the way. Thanks for all of your help Jonathan.

Thanks again!

-Forjo

Not to my knowledge. It has a Norse or Finnish ring to it, so as a dwarf name or a Lossoth name, it's pretty tight.

[Merrhelm]

I thought this was funny...

My name Merrhelm came because Ive played under the name MeRRR for quite some time, and I just threw one of the suggested endings on it.

So I looked at a few of the links in this post and tried to translate it. The closest i got was "mer" meaning "marrow" and "helm" being "helmet"..... now follow me here

marrow helmet -> bone helmet -> bone head


hows that for a name? hah

[Mormegul]

Not to my knowledge. It has a Norse or Finnish ring to it, so as a dwarf name or a Lossoth name, it's pretty tight.

I'm finnish and I cant relate that name to my language in any possible way. Sorry but I just had to respond to this

[dennisconrad]

I'm finnish and I cant relate that name to my language in any possible way. Sorry but I just had to respond to this

Yeah, it's like Nazis speaking "German" in most of the older US war movies :-)

[ThomasTieschle]

Hello.
My main character`s name is Worinberg. Could someone tell me if it be appropriate to add surname "Morn Ernil" to his name?

[Berephon]

I'm finnish and I cant relate that name to my language in any possible way. Sorry but I just had to respond to this

I didn't say it *was* Finnish, just that it had a Norse (moreso) or Finnish ring to it. After spending a lot of time digging up Finnish names like Jarno, Orvo, Keijo, and Veijo, Forjo is not a big visual stretch (excepting that I haven't found any Finnish names containing an "F"--though my source may just be limited...Could you enlighten me? I'm not a linguist, but I do enjoy finding little nuances about different languages, in written form at least. )

[Thehunter]

That would be Fenced Stone or Stone Fence.

Damn, and I'm a hunter. XD

[Mormegul]

I didn't say it *was* Finnish, just that it had a Norse (moreso) or Finnish ring to it. After spending a lot of time digging up Finnish names like Jarno, Orvo, Keijo, and Veijo, Forjo is not a big visual stretch (excepting that I haven't found any Finnish names containing an "F"--though my source may just be limited...Could you enlighten me? I'm not a linguist, but I do enjoy finding little nuances about different languages, in written form at least. )

Well, there may be a few names that MIGHT start with an "F" but they are very rare. The names you just listed there, I have heard most of those names in real life. The only exception is that I have not heard of anyone named Jarno but I do know a Jarmo in real life, although the differense between those 2 names is so small, there could be a Jarno out there aswell.

I found a site with finnish names on it, not all of them but the most usual ones, only one started with an "F"... Floora, which is a name given to a girl, there were no names starting with an "F" in the list of boy names.

[LordWhiteroses]

Howdy

thought I'd just leave a couple of questions in here:

My main's name was thrown together of the "sample name elements" and I was wondering if you could tell me what it (Carathrandir) translates to. I have a hunch that -randir is "wanderer" but that's only my feeble guess.

And second, whether I translated my alt's surname correctly.
Estelgûr - hope and heart (trying to pull a pun on a certain minstrel legendary )

Thanks =-)

[gildhur]

A kinmate of mine were trying to come up with a surname for my Rohirric Captain. He wants something that means roughly "Lover of Cold", as he has traveled North from the Mark to seek cooler climates in Forochel and the Misty Mountains.

We came up with Helegethron. Any input on that? Other suggestions?

[Berephon]

Howdy

thought I'd just leave a couple of questions in here:

My main's name was thrown together of the "sample name elements" and I was wondering if you could tell me what it (Carathrandir) translates to. I have a hunch that -randir is "wanderer" but that's only my feeble guess.

And second, whether I translated my alt's surname correctly.
Estelgûr - hope and heart (trying to pull a pun on a certain minstrel legendary )

Thanks =-)

Carathrandir: hrm, well Carath isn't anything, actually, but you could say it is a play on Caradhrandir (dh is pronounced like the hard th in them), which would be Caran (red) + Randir (Wanderer).

With Estelgúr (the û shortens a little to ú in the compound form), it would actually be translated Heart of Hope. Estel a Gûr would be Hope and Heart.

[Berephon]

A kinmate of mine were trying to come up with a surname for my Rohirric Captain. He wants something that means roughly "Lover of Cold", as he has traveled North from the Mark to seek cooler climates in Forochel and the Misty Mountains.

We came up with Helegethron. Any input on that? Other suggestions?

Lover of Cold would be Ringmelethril, Ringmelethron, or Ringmellon. Lover of Bitter Cold would be Helchmelethril, Helchmelethron, or Helchmellon. Lover of Ice would be Helegmelethril, Helegmelethron, or Helegmellon. The -il endings are specifically feminine, the other two are specifically masculine.

However, being Rohirric, I suggest Cealdlufiend (Cold-lover in Old English.)

[gildhur]

Lover of Cold would be Ringmelethril, Ringmelethron, or Ringmellon. Lover of Bitter Cold would be Helchmelethril, Helchmelethron, or Helchmellon. Lover of Ice would be Helegmelethril, Helegmelethron, or Helegmellon. The -il endings are specifically feminine, the other two are specifically masculine.

However, being Rohirric, I suggest Cealdlufiend (Cold-lover in Old English.)

Yeah. I'm not a fan of the Ring- versions. They sound too fanboy. And the latter ones are a bit too long and clunky. I was wondering if I could use Old English for a Rohirric version, but didn't pursue that end myself. Cealdlufiend sounds lovely, though. Thanks, Ber!

Gaerric Cealdlufiend

[theonekane]

Oooohh.

This is fun. I love the little languange joys of Tolkien.

So what's the take on my name, Eargil.

I did a little researh so I'm pretty confident on its meaning, though I could have fudged my combination of the two parts.

[karakedi]

I asked a Finnish friend about some of the names in Forochel. He says that the devs have done a very good job with them. The list is not exhaustive, as I haven't explored all the areas yet, but here's what I have so far. Warning: it's rather long.

Linguistic Notes: In LotRO usage, a circumflex (looks like a little hat) indicates what would be a double vowel (e.g., aa) in modern Finnish. Normally compounds are like English, with the modifier first.

(This was a conversation on an IRC site for a Middle-earth themed NWN module.)

[15:21] karakedi:<yavanna> OK, the first is a place name: Kauppa-kohta
[15:23] <vulpex> market place <vulpex>or point
[15:23] <yavanna>karakedi: which is which, and are there cases?
[15:23] <vulpex> kauppa means store, shop, market <vulpex>in basic form
<vulpex>[15:24] <vulpex> kohta means place, point
[15:25] <vulpex> more understood modern word would be paikka=place, <vulpex>but i understood it right away
[15:25] karakedi:<yavanna> I'm sure they've used some archaisms
[15:25] <vulpex> kauppa is nordic loan <vulpex>kaupang of vikings
[15:27] <vulpex> but kohta is good word, is used nowadays for precise point, or time, <vulpex>like point, <vulpex>so kauppa kohta is trade place
[15:29] karakedi: <yavanna> ja-kuru (umlaut on the a)
[15:29] <vulpex> jää?
[15:29] <vulpex> ice, and <vulpex>kuru is "canyon"
[15:30] <vulpex> ice canyon
[15:31] karakedi: <yavanna> ita-ma
[15:31] <vulpex> itä=east, <vulpex>maa=earth, country, <vulpex>East land
[15:37] <yavanna>karakedi: how about ja(umlaut)-rannit
[15:38] <vulpex> ränni=funnel, not wide precipe
[15:38] <vulpex> something not wide where something flows <vulpex>and in plural
[15:39] karakedi:<yavanna> is -t the usual way to make plurals?
<vulpex>[15:39] mostly
[15:40] <yavanna> karakedi: Suri-kyla (circumflex on the u, umlaut on the a)
[15:41] <vulpex> kylä is village
<vulpex>[15:41] <vulpex> suuri=big, great
[15:41] <vulpex> we would say isokylä, </vulpex></vulpex></vulpex></vulpex></yavanna></vulpex></yavanna></vulpex></vulpex></vulpex></yavanna></vulpex></vulpex></vulpex></yavanna></vulpex></vulpex></vulpex></vulpex></yavanna></vulpex></vulpex></vulpex></vulpex></vulpex></yavanna></vulpex></vulpex></vulpex></vulpex></vulpex></vulpex></yavanna></vulpex></vulpex></yavanna> but i think there are quite a few suuri something in finland
<yavanna><vulpex><vulpex><yava nna><vulpex><vulpex><vulpex><v ulpex><vulpex><vulpex><yavanna ><vulpex><vulpex><vulpex><vulp ex><vulpex><yavanna><vulpex><v ulpex><vulpex><vulpex><yavanna ><vulpex><vulpex><vulpex><yava nna><vulpex><vulpex><vulpex><y avanna><vulpex><yavanna><vulpe x><vulpex><vulpex><vulpex> [15:41] <yavanna>karakedi: how is the y pronounced?
<vulpex>[15:44] <vulpex> Y is like French U or German U-umlaut (Ü, i.e. U with two dots above it)
[15:45] <yavanna>karakedi: so suuri is archaic, and iso is the normal word for big?
[15:46] <vulpex> no, suuri is modern too
[15:46] <yavanna>karakedi: but not used for place names?
[15:46] <vulpex> both are--<vulpex>suuri is bit like large, and <vulpex>iso is bit like big if that makes sense
[15:47] <vulpex> in place names iso is more used but not so much that it would be noticeable
[15:49] <yavanna> Lansi-ma (umlaut and circumflex) west land?
[15:49] <vulpex> yes, <vulpex>länsimaa
<yavanna> karakedi: norsu-hauta: norsu is elephant?
<vulpex> yes
<yavanna>karakedi: hauta graveyard?
[15:51] <vulpex> grave; hautausmaa is graveyard, means gravefield
[15:52] <vulpex> and why in earth we have such word for elephant? might be from mursu=walrus
[15:55] karakedi: <yavanna> Kissa-sari cat island?
[15:55] <vulpex> yes, kissasaari
<yavanna>karakedi: janis(umlaut)-leiri: leiri is hamlet or camp?
[15:56] <vulpex> jänis=hare, <vulpex>leiri=camp
[15:58] <yavanna> Vesi-paistaa
[15:58] <vulpex> vesi=water, paistaa=to shine
[15:59] <vulpex> bit awkward, but undersandable
[15:59] <yavanna> would that be translated as shining water?
[15:59] <vulpex> yes i would say veenpaisto
[15:59] <vulpex> its ok
[16:00] <yavanna> what's the difference?
[16:00] <vulpex> veen=of water
[16:00] <vulpex> or veden
[16:00] <vulpex> paisto=shine of something
[16:00] <vulpex> water-shine is vesipaisto
[I've snipped out a conversation about Finnish cases that was interesting to me but may not be to all of the readers here]
[16:07] <yavanna>karakedi: How about lumi-vaki (umlaut on a)
[16:08] <vulpex> snow-people
[16:08] <vulpex> väki
[16:08] <yavanna>karakedi: yes, that seemed to be the word for people or -kind (also used for wolves: susi-vaki)
[16:13] <vulpex> ok, that means wolf-people
[16:13] karakedi:<yavanna> how about sivullinen (southerner, outsider?)
[16:13] <vulpex> outsider
[16:13] <vulpex> one in the side of it. <vulpex>sivu is on side
[16:14] <vulpex> if you would call some one as sivullinen in modern finland, we would understand
[16:15] <yavanna>karakedi: what about the rest of the word?
[16:16] <vulpex> -linen?
[16:16] <vulpex> sivu is one apart
[16:16] <vulpex> -linen is like part of something, <vulpex>one belonging to group that is on side
[16:17] <vulpex> -nen is the basic, but it gets so many changes i dont know
[16:18] <vulpex> example--<vulpex>yesterday:eilinen
[16:20] <vulpex> roots change according to suffixes
[16:20] <yavanna> karakedi: linen after sivu, lainen after aika, linen after ei (what does ei mean)?
[16:21] <vulpex> eilen=yesterday
[16:21] <vulpex> eilinen= things belong to yesterday
[16:22] karakedi: <yavanna> Hammastus-pesa (umlaut on last a)
[16:22] <vulpex> hämmästys=surprise
[16:23] <vulpex> pesä
[16:23] <vulpex> nest
[16:23] <vulpex> thats good, suprise nest
[16:23] <vulpex> or befudlement, <vulpex>or be flabberghasted
[16:24] karakedi: <yavanna> korkea-jarvi (umlaut)
[16:25] <vulpex> high lake
[16:25] <vulpex> i think we have couple of them
[16:25] <vulpex> good name
[16:25] <vulpex> lake erie was called that in some old literature
[16:26] <vulpex> nowadays is yläjärvi
[16:26] karakedi: <yavanna> metsasta-sija
[16:29] <vulpex> i would say metsästäjän sija
[16:29] <vulpex> place of hunter
16:30] <vulpex> metsästäjä=hunter, metsästä= out of woods, metsä=woods, but we have many words for woods
[16:30] karakedi: <yavanna> Ja(umlaut)-reitti (ice-something) in the ice canyon
[16:31] <vulpex> ice trail
[16:3] karakedi <yavanna> Leijona-kotin
[16:31] <vulpex> lion, koti=home
[16:32] <vulpex> leijonankoti, would i say
[16:32] <vulpex> bit poetic and such
[16:46] <yavanna>karakedi: here's another one: Pynti-peldot
[16:48] <vulpex> peldot might be pellot, fields
[16:49] <vulpex> i know estonians say peldot, for pellot
[16:50] <yavanna> pynti-peldot is a place name
[16:50] <vulpex> that sounds like something-fields
[16:50] <vulpex> pellot=fields
[16:52] <yavanna> karakedi: it's an open area of tundra where the place is, so that could make sense
[14:19] <vulpex> i think its pyynti
[14:19] <vulpex> that means hunting, or game
[14:19] <vulpex> so that might be hunting fields
[14:20] <vulpex> modern finnish, pyyntipellot
[14:21] <vulpex> but pellot is more like cultured fields
[14:22] <vulpex> but quite intelligible
[16:54] karakedi: <yavanna> kilpa-kita is the term used for the sabertooth cats
[16:54] <yavanna> is kita another word for cat?
[16:55] <vulpex> hahah
[16:55] <vulpex> kita is maw
[16:55] <vulpex> kilpa is contest, strife
[16:55] <yavanna> as in mouth?
[16:55] karakedi: <yavanna>strife-maw?
[16:56] <vulpex> strife maw is good translation of it
[17:12] karakedi: <yavanna> is a peikko a monkey?
[18:12] <vulpex> peikko is troll


Here's one he didn't get--can anyone help out?

[16:47] <yavanna>karakedi: and something that sounds like eitileviiras (a form of address to me)
[16:47] <vulpex> thats hard
[16:47] <vulpex> nope, cant see it, even tasting words
[16:49] <vulpex> leviiras baffles me
[16:49] <yavanna>karakedi: eitileviiras is what they call me in voiced text

For the linguistically inclined, a brief discussion of duals:

[16:59] <vulpex> as you know quenya, i was fascinated of dual, which is lost in north finnic languages
[16:59] <vulpex> like maryat elentari ortane
[16:59] <vulpex> his two hand did star queen lift
[17:00] <vulpex> hungarians have it still
[17:00] karakedi: <yavanna>is the -t in finnish a left-over from an old dual?
[17:00] <vulpex> it might be
[17:01] <vulpex> and in some dialects there are such forms suggesting dual
[17:01] <vulpex> namely karelian and savoan
[17:02] <vulpex> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_grammar
[17:03] <vulpex> now, i should know this by heart
[17:05] <vulpex> ah, yes, some of forms even in proper finnish point to dual

More later as I explore Forochel further.</vulpex></vulpex></vulpex></vulpex></vulpex></vulpex></yavanna></vulpex></vulpex></vulpex></vulpex></yavanna></vulpex></vulpex></vulpex></yavanna></vulpex></yavanna></vulpex></yavanna></yavanna></vulpex></vulpex></vulpex></yavanna></yavanna></vulpex></vulpex></vulpex></vulpex></vulpex></vulpex></yavanna></vulpex></vulpex></yavanna></vulpex></vulpex></yavanna></vulpex></vulpex></vulpex></yavanna></vulpex></yavanna></vulpex></vulpex></vulpex></yavanna></vulpex></vulpex></vulpex></vulpex></vulpex></yavanna></vulpex></vulpex></vulpex></vulpex></vulpex></vulpex></yavanna></vulpex></vulpex></yavanna></vulpex></vulpex></vulpex></vulpex></vulpex></vulpex></vulpex></vulpex></yavanna></vulpex></vulpex></vulpex></vulpex></yavanna></vulpex></yavanna></vulpex></vulpex></yavanna></vulpex></vulpex></vulpex></vulpex></yavanna></vulpex></vulpex></yavanna></vulpex></vulpex></yavanna></vulpex></vulpex></yavanna></vulpex></yavanna></vulpex></vulpex></yavanna></vulpex></yavanna></vulpex></vulpex></yavanna></vulpex></vulpex></vulpex></vulpex></yavanna></vulpex></yavanna></vulpex></vulpex></yavanna></vulpex></vulpex></vulpex></vulpex></yavanna></vulpex></yavanna></vulpex></vulpex></vulpex></yavanna></vulpex></vulpex></vulpex></yavanna></vulpex></vulpex></vulpex></vulpex></yavanna></vulpex></vulpex></vulpex></vulpex></vulpex></yavanna></vulpex></vulpex></vulpex></vulpex></vulpex></vulpex></yavanna></vulpex></vulpex></yavanna>

[Jaxom922]

I highly doubt "Jaxom" has any meaning within Tolkien's linguistics, as it's taken from a non-Tolkien literary source. I don't think I've ever seen an "x" used in a name in this game or in the books. Not that I can remember at any rate.

[karakedi]

Lover of Cold would be Ringmelethril, Ringmelethron, or Ringmellon. Lover of Bitter Cold would be Helchmelethril, Helchmelethron, or Helchmellon. Lover of Ice would be Helegmelethril, Helegmelethron, or Helegmellon. The -il endings are specifically feminine, the other two are specifically masculine.

However, being Rohirric, I suggest Cealdlufiend (Cold-lover in Old English.)

I checked in an on-line Old English dictionary, and I think a better translation might be cealdneswine or cealdnesfreond, as cealdwine might mean a friend who is cold. Cealdnes is listed along with ceald for 'coldness.' As for friend, I think Berephon may have made a typographic error, as I would be surprised if 'fiend' means friend. The dictionary lists wine or freond as the translations for 'friend.' -wine, to the best of my knowledge, is only used as a suffix, usually in names (e.g., aelfwine 'elf-friend' Modern English Alfwin).

It's possible that Berephon is using a source that is based on a different dialect of Old English from the one I used, hence the differences. This is the source I used: http://home.comcast.net/~modean52/oeme_dictionaries.htm

[karakedi]

I highly doubt "Jaxom" has any meaning within Tolkien's linguistics, as it's taken from a non-Tolkien literary source. I don't think I've ever seen an "x" used in a name in this game or in the books. Not that I can remember at any rate.

x is used in Valaric, e.g., Mahanaxxar, the circle of judgment where Melkor was condemned. I've seen it in no other Tolkien language either.

[Berephon]

I checked in an on-line Old English dictionary, and I think a better translation might be cealdneswine or cealdnesfreond, as cealdwine might mean a friend who is cold. Cealdnes is listed along with ceald for 'coldness.' As for friend, I think Berephon may have made a typographic error, as I would be surprised if 'fiend' means friend. The dictionary lists wine or freond as the translations for 'friend.' -wine, to the best of my knowledge, is only used as a suffix, usually in names (e.g., aelfwine 'elf-friend' Modern English Alfwin).

It's possible that Berephon is using a source that is based on a different dialect of Old English from the one I used, hence the differences. This is the source I used: http://home.comcast.net/~modean52/oeme_dictionaries.htm

The online dictionary I used listed lufiend as lover (masculine form). Ceald as coldness.

[Berephon]

Also, for the Lossoth place-names, we used a Finnish-operated Finnish-English online dictionary, and for Finnish character names, I have a fairly decent-sized international names book. Double vowels were reduced to a single vowel with a circumflex or umlaut indicating a long vowel. (With Earth-kin, we maintain the double vowels.) The format of compound place-names is our own, so don't necessarily look for grammatically correct format, just correct words.

[Locklear93]

Also, for the Lossoth place-names, we used a Finnish-operated Finnish-English online dictionary, and for Finnish character names, I have a fairly decent-sized international names book. Double vowels were reduced to a single vowel with a circumflex or umlaut indicating a long vowel. (With Earth-kin, we maintain the double vowels.) The format of compound place-names is our own, so don't necessarily look for grammatically correct format, just correct words.

How DO you guys select which diacritics to use (and/or, how did Tolkien?)? I know what umlauts do to pronunciation in German, as I speak a tiny bit of it, and I know that a macron indicates a long vowel, at least in English, but circumflexes aren't used in American English, or any other language I have any sort of familiarity with, so for me (and I suspect a lot of other players), diacritic marks just get "culled" and the word is pronounced that way. I hate not knowing decent rules of pronunciation!

[Berephon]

How DO you guys select which diacritics to use (and/or, how did Tolkien?)? I know what umlauts do to pronunciation in German, as I speak a tiny bit of it, and I know that a macron indicates a long vowel, at least in English, but circumflexes aren't used in American English, or any other language I have any sort of familiarity with, so for me (and I suspect a lot of other players), diacritic marks just get "culled" and the word is pronounced that way. I hate not knowing decent rules of pronunciation!

The way Tolkien described his circumflexed vowels is that they are pronounced with double length (hence why we shortened Finnish doubles to a circumflexed vowel.)

Umlauts are generally used only if the particular language actually uses it (Finnish, Norse, and Quenya), circumflexes are used as Tolkien uses them. The acute (or whatever the opposite is) is used as another indicator of long vowels (longer than standard, but shorter than the circumflex) as described by the Professor.

[Serin36]

The acute (or whatever the opposite is)

Obtuse...?

[Silverlocket]

Obtuse...?

You rang?


SL