Rise of Isengard: Dev Diary Feedback: Stat Updates

[Farian]

You can sum up absolutely all 29 pages with just a few words that will explain why turbine has done this.

Money, Money, Money, Money, Oh and More money.

It was obvious as soon as lotro announced F2P and the turbine store for me which route this company was taking LOTRO. They don't care as much about their players as they say. Every single game company out there says they care but when it comes right down to it they care as long as they can get the largest amount of profit with the least amount of effort. Lets face it there are some people out their whos egos are so fragile they absolutely have to have every +1 stat they can get because they feel less of whatever it is they are when they dont have it. All game companies know this. F2P games with an option like LOTRO store has makes millions of dollars but the community they attract remains very small. Now i can NOT BELIEVE i am about to say this BUT i have to honestly say i wish more companies was like Blizzard. WoW has been out well over a decade and is still dominating the MMORPG scene with over 10 million players and increasing every single day. While i didnt care much for WoW mainly because of the catoonish graphics and the feel of the game in general. You have to had it to Blizzard because they are the only game company out there avoiding the F2P scene all together and showing their players day after day that they care by listening to their players before updates etc and using what their players think would be good for the game. The game has a pretty extensive store line and best of all no store in game for those people who feel they need to buff their epeen because they have such fragile egos. I'd never play WoW i did not enjoy it. I enjoy lotro but i have to say turbine is ruining this game with every single update they bring to us. Theres all these little things they implement several years after we have complained about it that we are like "ooo finally this" So we focus at first on what they gave us instead of what they messed up. I can see myself quitting LOTRO within the next 6 months to a year for sure and perminatly. I very seriously doubt that im alone in this. Loads of people i know and have talked to are giving Turbine 1 more chance and then moving on.

Just a quick comment on WoW before I talk what I think about LOTRO right now. I don't think Blizzard is a good example of "good company" if you think on the side of the players. Although everyone is equal there by paying subscription and without "extra boosting/consumables" on some kind of money-sucking store, Blizzard still has no consistency when it comes with concepts on the game-play, specially classes. They don't aim for balance, they make a quick research on "which class is popular now" and boosts that class to overplay another ones. Then when they see that the less favored classes are making the players who favs them leave, they boost it again and keep doing that with everyone - they are as much meta-money as Turbine is right now.

Now to Turbine: Lets say Turbine FINDS the "perfect formula" for every class. Lets say everything is balanced and working - lets say that you don't NEED to make big changes on classes again because they are already working how they KNOW (and they know already) it should work. You think they would leave it at that? No. I bet they'll start doing the same as Blizzard. It'll be like [Turbine] "Champs got a nerf!", [Champ Players] "Ohh.. =(", [Turbine] "RK's got a boost!", [RK Players] "Yaaay! =D", [Turbine] (just 2 months later) "Wait wait champs, you got a boost back! Dont leave the game", [Champ Players] "Yaaay ty Turbine! =D". And goes like that forever lol. They can tst it enough and make classes balanced, with everything good working, in about 6 months or less of game after the next expansion. Thats how the game was before F2P, you would very rarely see any class changes. But now? Get ready for the rollercoaster.

I played this since about.. 4 months before Mines of Moria release, so I played a lot of LOTRO before F2P.. and a lot of FTP LOTRO now too I guess. When I heard it would become "free", it was obvious to me that you would play a very poor free version of the game, so you would want to stay a subscriber (now called VIP) anyway.

But thats old story. I was happy because I thought it would bring life to the game again. If Turbine was having a hard time to raise funds to keep the game updating and making a new expansion, then this "maneuver" would give them what they needed. I really thought the change was a good thing.

They said turbine store woudn't have anything that you can't get in game, except for cosmetic stuff. In othe rword,s if you were already a VIP you would browse the store for CONVENIENCIES and not boosts, like horses, outfits, outfit storage, name change, crafting boosts, xp boosts etc. On the practical (non-cosmetical) acquisitions from lotro store, you would be able to level faster your char, craft, get disered legacies, scrolls of empowerment, etc. But never permanent boosts.

They LIED because they reinforced, and I read it more than once, that LOTRO store wouldn't contain such things. They even said something like "A player's character wont be more 'powerful' fro lotro store because everything on the store can be acquired on game". Then the +10 to +50 stats tomes came and, to maintain their lie, they added a 0.0001% chance (if not less) of you getting a random stat tome from a mob in game. It is already done, characters are already walking around with +50 permanent bonusses to all their stats (or just those that matter to their class) and its not only that - they now added LOTRO store consumables that stacks with crafted consumables. You get defence tomes that actually give you a percentage defense against all damage, another for percentage bonus to your outgoing damage... there's morale and power strong potions that doesn't share cooldown with your potions.

Turbine can say what they want now and they maybe will say something if too many people complain - but dealing with the public is also a treasured GM skill and I bet they have people who can turn lies like that into a beautiful thing by throwing meaningful (not) explanations full of energy and optimism. And, if you're easily swayed by the things, you'll say "whoa how cool they are! thank you turbine! I'll deposit more money in your account right away!"

If by the time they announced F2P there was anyone suspecting that players who buy turbine points frequently will have a lot more of TP even compared to VIP's - who """just""" pay their monthly fee like they always did for years - and would have more meta-game benefits in game (not only "conveniencies", like Turbine said), you don't need to suspect anymore - its already the reality of LOTRO today.

If you want to know how absurd this got, I heard of an european kinship that only raids with ppl who bought stat tomes and that buy damage, healing and/or defense tomes and lotro-store pots to raid OD T2. I can honestly believe that. FOr now you can say that peopel who do that have it easier in game (which is wrong already and contradicts Turbine's promisse) but what if the "T2" or the new raid(s) are purposely made so hard that its almost an requirement to have stats tomes on your char and to buy turbine-store consumable ot be able to beat them? Am I being paranoid? Just wait to see the new extra stat tomes on LOTRO store and what-else they'll add in the store from now on.

I sitll have faith that they realize they have their money comming in a stable and very profitabl way as it is and they don't triev for more by eroding the game more (than they already did on LOTRO store). You know how humans are tho, so we can only hope Turbine is made of decent ppl... or perhaps of elves and hobbits =P (dwarves are also too greedy lol).

[Lestache]

Just a quick comment on WoW before I talk what I think about LOTRO right now. I don't think Blizzard is a good example of "good company" if you think on the side of the players. Although everyone is equal there by paying subscription and without "extra boosting/consumables" on some kind of money-sucking store, Blizzard still has no consistency when it comes with concepts on the game-play, specially classes. They don't aim for balance, they make a quick research on "which class is popular now" and boosts that class to overplay another ones. Then when they see that the less favored classes are making the players who favs them leave, they boost it again and keep doing that with everyone - they are as much meta-money as Turbine is right now.

Now to Turbine: Lets say Turbine FINDS the "perfect formula" for every class. Lets say everything is balanced and working - lets say that you don't NEED to make big changes on classes again because they are already working how they KNOW (and they know already) it should work. You think they would leave it at that? No. I bet they'll start doing the same as Blizzard. It'll be like [Turbine] "Champs got a nerf!", [Champ Players] "Ohh.. =(", [Turbine] "RK's got a boost!", [RK Players] "Yaaay! =D", [Turbine] (just 2 months later) "Wait wait champs, you got a boost back! Dont leave the game", [Champ Players] "Yaaay ty Turbine! =D". And goes like that forever lol. They can tst it enough and make classes balanced, with everything good working, in about 6 months or less of game after the next expansion. Thats how the game was before F2P, you would very rarely see any class changes. But now? Get ready for the rollercoaster.

I played this since about.. 4 months before Mines of Moria release, so I played a lot of LOTRO before F2P.. and a lot of FTP LOTRO now too I guess. When I heard it would become "free", it was obvious to me that you would play a very poor free version of the game, so you would want to stay a subscriber (now called VIP) anyway.

But thats old story. I was happy because I thought it would bring life to the game again. If Turbine was having a hard time to raise funds to keep the game updating and making a new expansion, then this "maneuver" would give them what they needed.

They said turbine store woudn't have anything that you can't get in game, except for cosmetic stuff. In othe rword,s if you were already a VIP you would browse the store for CONVENIENCIES and not boosts, like horses, outfits, outfit storage, name change, crafting boosts, xp boosts etc. On the practical (non-cosmetical) acquisitions from lotro store, you would be able to level faster your char, craft, get disered legacies, scrolls of empowerment, etc. But never permanent boosts.

They LIED because they reinforced, and I read it more than once, that LOTRO store wouldn't contain such things. They even said something like "A player's character wont be more 'powerful' fro lotro store because everything on the store can be acquired on game". Then the +10 to +50 stats tomes came and, to maintain their lie, they added a 0.0001% chance (if not less) of you getting a random stat tome from a mob in game. It is already done, characters are already walking around with +50 permanent bonusses to all their stats (or just those that matter to their class) and its not only that - they now added LOTRO store consumables that stacks with crafted consumables. You get defence tomes that actually give you a percentage defense against all damage, another for percentage bonus to your outgoing damage... there's morale and power strong potions that doesn't share cooldown with your potions.

Turbine can say what they want now and they maybe will say something if too many people complain - but dealing with the public is also a treasured GM skill and I bet they have people who can turn lies like that into a beautiful thing by throwing meaningful (not) explanations full of energy and optimism. And, if you're easily swayed by the things, you'll say "whoa how cool they are! thank you turbine! I'll deposit more money in your account right away!"

If by the time they announced F2P there was anyone suspecting that players who buy turbine points frequently will have a lot more of TP even compared to VIP's - who """just""" pay their monthly fee like they always did for years - and would have more meta-game benefits in game (not only "conveniencies", like Turbine said), you don't need to suspect anymore - its already the reality of LOTRO today.

If you want to know how absurd this got, I heard of an european kinship that only raids with ppl who bought stat tomes and that buy damage, healing and/or defense tomes and lotro-store pots to raid OD T2. I can honestly believe that. FOr now you can say that peopel who do that have it easier in game (which is wrong already and contradicts Turbine's promisse) but what if the "T2" or the new raid(s) are purposely made so hard that its almost an requirement to have stats tomes on your char and to buy turbine-store consumable ot be able to beat them? Am I being paranoid? Just wait to see the new extra stat tomes on LOTRO store and what-else they'll add in the store from now on.

I sitll have faith that they realize they have their money comming in a stable and very profitabl way as it is and they don't triev for more by eroding the game more (than they already did on LOTRO store). You know how humans are tho, so we can only hope Turbine is made of decent ppl... or perhaps of elves and hobbits =P (dwarves are also too greedy lol).

I'm not terribly worried about upcoming raids being balanced around folks loading up on Store consumables. That possibility does lie somewhere on the slippery slope, but far enough down that if it does come to pass, I doubt that there'll be enough people left to care.

I'm still waiting for an acceptable (well, any) response regarding the existence of Stat Tomes and this statement in the F2P FAQ:

7. Will I still be able to play and enjoy the game without buying items from the LOTRO Store, or is that my only option for gaining weapons, armor, potions, and other goodies such as premium loot?

The purchase of items in the LOTRO Store is entirely optional. While items in the Store are designed to immediately enhance your in-game experience, premium loot and rare gear are the rewards of adventure and are only obtainable through gameplay.

If the rarest drops in the game don't qualify as premium loot, I don't know what does. Bugger the semantics debate regarding the since-departed Patience's statement about convenience vs. advantage, I just want to know what the good folks at Turbine consider stat tomes to be, if not premium loot.

[RicardoFurriel]

Hunters will use Agility for their Melee offence and Guardians, Champions and Wardens will use Might for their Ranged offence ratings

Hey Graalx, I hope it's a mistake

[Moondog548]

Hey Graalx, I hope it's a mistake

It is, but they did it on purpose.

[hbanana88]

I am super excited! It makes me sad to see that people are talkin smack about turbine. Even though they did get WB to buy them out, why cant people be optimistic and see that some changes are good. At least they are making updates. Some games burn out and the developers give up. I am proud of the developers and programmers who choose this line of work and make lotro the game it is. I think if you are caught up in the politics in gaming, saying that turbine only wants money ( well they have to put food on their families table some how, and i dont mind helping them out with that) , you should just stop wasting peoples time and stop playing/writing in the forums. im sick of seeing negative nancy's everywhere. If something isnt working out for you, leave some constructive criticism and tell turbine what you would like to see. And if you say Turbine doesnt listen, than get over it and either play the game or dont! just my 2 cents.

[Dwarven-Might]

I am super excited! It makes me sad to see that people are talkin smack about turbine. Even though they did get WB to buy them out, why cant people be optimistic and see that some changes are good. At least they are making updates. Some games burn out and the developers give up. I am proud of the developers and programmers who choose this line of work and make lotro the game it is. I think if you are caught up in the politics in gaming, saying that turbine only wants money ( well they have to put food on their families table some how, and i dont mind helping them out with that) , you should just stop wasting peoples time and stop playing/writing in the forums. im sick of seeing negative nancy's everywhere. If something isnt working out for you, leave some constructive criticism and tell turbine what you would like to see. And if you say Turbine doesnt listen, than get over it and either play the game or dont! just my 2 cents.

I absolutely agree with you. A lot of people look at all these changes from their own little towers. I mean little towers because they cant see a bigger picture. If all these changes didn't happen there wouldn't be updates or any game support left. LOTRO is a great game and Turbine being a property of WB now is the ONLY good thing that can happen today with LOTRO. LOTRO would face a gloomy end if Turbine didn't find new sponsor.

The whole fact that WB showed interest in Turbine and acquired it means that LOTRO will go forward and we will see more and more expansions. I don't know what people are looking for, but from what I see in Isengard game is getting back on Story driven path. I don't understand people complaining, but they have their own reasons of course. I don't understand them but thats me.

People say that Turbine is greedy for money now. How the heck they will keep supporting the game if they are running out of funds, if budget is scarce? Anyway, looking forward to RoI. See you in there! My wife and I already pre-purchased long time ago and I am personally excited. Whatever happens afterwards, there will be also SWTOR and GW2 to play soon. So, I don't see whats the tragedy people here are crying about.

I don't want to sound arrogant but the game is still GOING and expansions are coming out, isn't THAT the MOST important?

[myfreezr2]

A lot of people look at all these changes from their own little towers. I mean little towers because they cant see a bigger picture. If all these changes didn't happen there wouldn't be updates or any game support left. LOTRO is a great game and Turbine being a property of WB now is the ONLY good thing that can happen today with LOTRO. LOTRO would face a gloomy end if Turbine didn't find new sponsor.

The whole fact that WB showed interest in Turbine and acquired it means that LOTRO will go forward and we will see more and more expansions. I don't know what people are looking for, but from what I see in Isengard game is getting back on Story driven path. I don't understand people complaining, but they have their own reasons of course. I don't understand them but thats me.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there is more than enough evidence that Turbine was NOT losing money when WB bought them out. If you have proof that they were, please share it.

I don't want to sound arrogant but the game is still GOING and expansions are coming out, isn't THAT the MOST important?

No. The most important part is that people are ENJOYING said content. Judging by the posters here, many are not.

[reanor]

Why you guys care so much about how much money Turbine has?

RoI proves that Turbine is still same old Turbine, yes F2P, but this whole F2P subject is a dead horse, whats the point to keep kicking it. It will never change no matter what you say.

Just focus on game content and if there is something you really hate, constructive feedback was always more helpful than rants. Some people still hate Turbine for going F2P. Its just silly. Accept the change, or move on, guys. There is no other option. Or you can continue bouncing your head against the wall with all the rants about F2P or how greedy Turbine is.

You not gonna achieve anything with that, just get yourself a headache.

RoI sounds great. NDA is lifted and there is a lot of fun stuff in RoI, including some innovations. Play RoI when its out and stop your silly hatred.

[Artanisul]

Why you guys care so much about how much money Turbine has?

RoI proves that Turbine is still same old Turbine, yes F2P, but this whole F2P subject is a dead horse, whats the point to keep kicking it. It will never change no matter what you say.

Just focus on game content and if there is something you really hate, constructive feedback was always more helpful than rants. Some people still hate Turbine for going F2P. Its just silly. Accept the change, or move on, guys. There is no other option. Or you can continue bouncing your head against the wall with all the rants about F2P or how greedy Turbine is.

You not gonna achieve anything with that, just get yourself a headache.

RoI sounds great. NDA is lifted and there is a lot of fun stuff in RoI, including some innovations. Play RoI when its out and stop your silly hatred.

They are consistantly chopping away at the line between convenience and Advantage. They are well over the ethical line already. We ARE allowed to voice our opinion about that. This expansion is yet another step, we can see the mountain moving again....

Stats are going WAAAAY up, we can already buy stats and virtues. How cant people see the writing on the wall?

[Eagleking7]

Most of the changes I have no problem with, but I have 2 issues here.

Firstly, I think it is wrong to remove the level caps on stats. It will enable lowlevel players to become way too strong and remove most challenges for them.

I also really don't like that secondary characteristics become almost useless.

This will mean that players will focus even more on becoming extremely strong in one characteristic (+Vitality) at the expense of all the others. I think the system is fine as it is and doesn't need to change. Melee damage should be determined by Might, no matter your class, ranged damage should be determined by Agility, no matter your class and Will should certainly never determine melee damage.

It is much more logical that a hunter is better at ranged damage than melee and that the guardians, champions and wardens are better at melee damage than ranged. Besides it is really silly to let Will contribute to melee offence for lore-masters, minstrels and rune-keepers. These 3 classes are meant to be comparatively weak at melee damage and that is part of the charm of playing them, because thay have other skills to make up for it.

It shouldn't be all the same.

DON'T REMOVE THE SECONDARY CHARACTERISTICS. IT IS A REALLY BAD IDEA!

[Stelk]

Most of the changes I have no problem with, but I have 2 issues here.

Firstly, I think it is wrong to remove the level caps on stats. It will enable lowlevel players to become way too strong and remove most challenges for them.

I also really don't like that secondary characteristics become almost useless.

This will mean that players will focus even more on becoming extremely strong in one characteristic (+Vitality) at the expense of all the others. I think the system is fine as it is and doesn't need to change. Melee damage should be determined by Might, no matter your class, ranged damage should be determined by Agility, no matter your class and Will should certainly never determine melee damage.

It is much more logical that a hunter is better at ranged damage than melee and that the guardians, champions and wardens are better at melee damage than ranged. Besides it is really silly to let Will contribute to melee offence for lore-masters, minstrels and rune-keepers. These 3 classes are meant to be comparatively weak at melee damage and that is part of the charm of playing them, because thay have other skills to make up for it.

It shouldn't be all the same.

DON'T REMOVE THE SECONDARY CHARACTERISTICS. IT IS A REALLY BAD IDEA!

I can't agree with you more. I can however say that Turbine will do whatever turbine wants and this stinks!
I want my squishy RK and LM, I want my mêlée weak hunter and I want my Tank, well to tank..

I look around right now and I see hunters with 8,000+ morale and I think how they must have hacked their Agility to get that. Then I realize that no.. you can buy agility in the Lotro Store.

What happened to waiting to get that next piece of armor or that new weapon to add that little something extra
to your character?

TURBINE, if you want to brink the magic of the game back and increase the number of players bring back the
Look, Feel, Fun and Adventure that was there Pre-Moria. Pre-Forochel. Stop changing every little nook and cranny of the game that us long time players can't even see the snowman in Ered Luin... There was a charm that made this game great. Now there is the death and decay of greed and the LOTRO store.

Like so many others, I wasn't wanting this expansion and I still do not. I will give you the benefit of giving it a try but in 6 months to a year I bet I am not here and to that I feel bad that you destroyed the Fantasy story that helped
to define all fantasy.

OH and WB bought Turbine to control all of Tolkien's rights etc.. outside of the Family.. not because Turbine was dieing and needing money.

[Eagleking7]

I think it could be problematic in regard to balance to remove the stat caps when players can purchase stat-tomes in the store. They become too strong and the challenges are gone.

Besides I really don't like the idea of using will for loremasters and minstrels to determine battle damage or agility for hunters to determine melee damage or might for champions to determine ranged damage. This takes away the need to balance a character's stats and that is a shame.

[Eagleking7]

Much as I'd like to play the game again it is now just too imbalanced and I don't think I'll be returning to Middle Earth any time soon if ever.

The game becomes boring when you can just buy a plus 50 stat tome and then you have no opposition any more, even more so with the level caps gone. There is no challenge left.

Turbine should stop selling stat tomes, balance the races, and keep the stat system interesting so all are important and meaningful. A hunter's primary stat is Agility, but they should also keep an eye on Might for melee battle and vice versa for champions.

Then I might consider returning one day...

[Gredkhar]

I believe the release notes are being misinterpreted. Of course they could be by me too. Specifically the secondary characteristics are being removed. Remember those class dependent skills you'd get on odd levels? As a Burglar it would be for things like +Parry and +Evade. Those passives are removed. Instead your primary stats (might, agility, vitality, will, and fate) are solely responsible for determining those secondary traits. For example, if you were a Loremaster and wanted better Parry and Evade you'd focus on Agility.

The whole point of the change was to allow PCs to control exactly what they got rather than be force fed class dependent trait. Your other stats are still pretty important!

[VentoPT]

Honestly I still dont find myself able to say the changes were good or bad. I have been thinking about this (digesting) a lot and it is not clear the full implications of this change.

As I see it this stats changes will be very linked with mitigations and resistance and for example the relics you set up in your LI's. I havent tried it yet but have been told Igash in GS is more difficult than it was before...

Honestly i don see it as so straightforward that making record piles of stats like vitality or others wil cut it out in the end.

Now that i have made it to 75 i am seriously looking into armour and gear and trying to select best options and I find myself passing on stats like might or vitality for mitigations or resistance (as well as finesse...). Still its a time to try and figure out what works best

1 thing i noticed is that we are stunned more often and for longer time

[Ant128]

It would be nice to have some clarification of whether anything affects hit chance(other than using a sword). It used to be modified by agility but there is no mention of miss chance on the agility tool tip now.
With the stat changes, it seems like there's some arbitrary system of defining what hits. Guardian's ward seems to have an extremely high chance of missing, while Burglar attacks seem to hit a lot more often.
New systems like the Warden bleed gambit stacking would have been nice under the old hit chance system. As it stands now, misses come so frequently that constant checking is needed to make sure something actually worked.
Having to try and keep track of more icons and effects isn't simplifying the game at all. It's only making it more frustrating.

Under the old stat system it used to be worth putting effort into increasing agility just to reduce miss chance. It seems like the only way to reduce miss chance now is to use a class that does tactical damage. At least heals don't miss!