Accuracy from passives and agility removed - what replaces it?

[MRNot]

I'm not interested in "picking a side" in the debate shown in this thread, and I do think that the two sides seem to be unable to find a way to be speaking about the exact same thing..

My opinion(s) is(are) fluid and definitely get coloured by commentary such as that contained herein, and there are valid points raised by most here. Whatever the base numbers and calculations are or add up to, what I'm seeing on my previously capped 'toons (all classes except guard, who's still lagging at 58) amounts to a balance issue while solo questing (some classes are so much fun due to borderline OP it ain't funny, while others that used to be easy-peazy are struggling to survive long enough to not miss enough to stay even with an opponent's morale pool for long enough to win a fight). I am OK (well, with reservations) with the idea I need to TOTALLY trash my current virtue selection in favour of newly revised virtues full of mitigations & resistances (it upsets me a bit I now must go back and grind formerly uninteresting virtues just to maintain my previous soloability), I recognize that this is now necessary. That said, without doing it (realigning virtues), whether or not my net DPS remains consistent with pre-RoI levels, the misses present now and the enemy resistances are such that I,esp on hunter & warden, have a REAL problem surviving long enough to even dent opponents (esp the hunter & lm. who cannot kite, on the sigs w/ adds in Upper Barnavon, for instance, and with the warden who has no CC in the village of Abominations in Dunbog). My CCs (on those classes that have them) are virtually useless on many of these mobs, making it impossible to actually get off any skills with inductions, and with the warden, my self-heals & B/P/E buffs seem too little ~ too late. If these issues can be cleared up simply with correcting virtue arrangements, then that's what I will do, but it just seems a bit extreme to push capped players to completely re-learn all that schtuff.. (caveat: I am not a hardcore player or raider and the 2 years I've been here are my first in an MMO at all, so if this is to be expected as normal, just ignore my ramblings..)

Cheers,

[CFury]

It does. What hunters are unhappy about is being turned into a focused starved glass cannon if they want the high agility they need for their dps to compete with the Super-Classes like Champs, RK's and Captains.

Champions had long years to learn how to deal with being neglected, overlooked and underpowered. Now when they are finally getting to be equally balanced I can imagine it may look like super-class to someone who could safely lay back and be on top. You got competition? Good. It will teach you to adapt, compensate and play better. Like it taught us.

If you compete in dps with captains though, I have no comment.

[Jassiminn]

2. How are people that play a heavy class, or a warden for that matter, supposed to lower miss chance when the designers don't put agility on the raid gear or jewellery intended for heavy classes to use? I'm talking about set items, not random drop gloves from instances that occasionally have agility. No one is going to break up a set for that. So, essentially, how is anyone that is not a burg or hunter supposed to lower miss?

I play a warden and I have no problems hitting. I easily take on several yellow orange at a time (after ROI) Green are a piece of cake for me. I'm not sure why the OP is having problems playing a warden other than maybe outdated equipment (fighting a level 70+ with a level 60-65 weapon) and no finess. Or maybe he focused on stats other than adding Agility as well.

Let me clarify something, I am *not* using a set and have pieced ever piece of equipment I use myself I take out greens (most of the time) before they can even stun me.

You asked how? Piece the outfits for what you need to add. I focus on all str, agi and vit pieces with a few will and fate. I have near 3k finess and have no 'set' pieces. I use a balanced approach and since I can take our reds easy enough, it suits me fine. It may not be everyones playstyle

[Fin.]

I have near 3k finess and have no 'set' pieces. I use a balanced approach and since I can take our reds easy enough, it suits me fine. It may not be everyones playstyle

Sorry but finesse has NOTHING to do with the amount of misses you get.

[zagreb000]

Try hitting a reaver with a 15k guardian. You cant. So many misses i forgot what numbers look like.

[Kongas]

Sorry but finesse has NOTHING to do with the amount of misses you get.

Unless you're a pedant of course it does. It mitigates their B/P/E. The higher your finesse the less they are going to BPE and the more you'll hit them. That's what normal people mean by 'missing' - not hitting the target.

[Mad_Bombardier]

Unless you're a pedant of course it does. It mitigates their B/P/E. The higher your finesse the less they are going to BPE and the more you'll hit them. That's what normal people mean by 'missing' - not hitting the target.

Thank you for defining "normal." I reject your definition and substitute my own. Miss, as used in this thread, literally means the floaty word MISS as seen ingame.

You are correct that mathematically, attacks that are B/P/E do no damage and are equivalent to misses in the damage calculations. However, we can talk about two different things with similar characteristics. Oranges and lemons are both citrus. Oranges ≠ lemons.

The issue of Finesse and avoidances is quite clear at this point. Some people just want to know about the specific MISS calculations.

[anwar]

Looking at some of these posts explaining stuff with math that makes my eyes glaze over....

WHY would anyone want that much complexity?

I would be happy with maybe 10 stats max that are obvious what they enhance, no advanced math needed. I could glance at an item and know if it's an upgrade instead of storing it because I don't want to do any studying at the time.

Silly me, I think we should spend more time chopping up baddies and less time studying and getting ready to chop up baddies.

Elitism is getting out of hand and the devs need to quit trying to prove how much smarter they are than the just plain old folks that like to play PC games.

Sheesh, every round of blows with a baddie has 1000s of stats to read and 100s that there's some kind of roll on.

Just because you can make something called finesse or whatever doesn't really mean you should.

[podgie_bear]

Looking at some of these posts explaining stuff with math that makes my eyes glaze over....
WHY would anyone want that much complexity? ......................

Just because you can make something called finesse or whatever doesn't really mean you should.

I agree totally! I went crosseyed trying to work out what was causing what and what was an improvement or not. In the end I just said "**** it!" I switched off the floaty damage, ignored most of the stat info and went back to playing for enjoyment. If I don't have a efficient character then tough, I don't care anymore and I'll just struggle on. I want to enjoy playing the game again, I do enough worrying about numbers at work, I don't want to have to do it when I am relaxing and playing!

[Ailedra]

I agree totally! I went crosseyed trying to work out what was causing what and what was an improvement or not. In the end I just said "**** it!" I switched off the floaty damage, ignored most of the stat info and went back to playing for enjoyment. If I don't have a efficient character then tough, I don't care anymore and I'll just struggle on. I want to enjoy playing the game again, I do enough worrying about numbers at work, I don't want to have to do it when I am relaxing and playing!

For what it's worth, the game historically plays perfectly well at that level....you can generally eyeball your stats, make common-sense decisions, and do fine. The extra layer of min-maxing and optimization is there if that extra nth degree of perfection is what floats your boat.

The concern here is that, due to the change, the game doesn't play perfectly at that level.....too much hit was taken away, to the point where certain classes aren't viable, even if they do take optimization to that extreme.

That's part of why getting to the net effect on DPS (viability) is so crucial...if there are viable choices, if there are multiple ways to gear your character and be able to succeed for the most part (for example, if you can drop Might for Agility to gain hit, and come out approximately equal to somebody who doesn't), then the people who don't want to spreadsheet things out will be fine making common-sense choices and enjoying the game.

If they can't, if you have to choose only certain stats to be viable (not optimal, viable), that breaks.

For what it's worth, I'd rather not have this be proved (one way or the other) mathematically/theoretically, because it does glaze eyes and give the impression you need a sliderule and an algorithmic table to figure out your gear. That's why I'm (still) asking for parses (real, observed, empirical data) that show what happens to DPS when a max-level Champ drops X Might to gain X Agility.

It would answer all the questions, and be a clear, simple, unequivocal statement to Turbine: You took away a stat that can't be reasonably replaced, and some classes are now less-than-viable because of it. There is no workaround. Fix it.

[Chanah]

Somehow I think this removal of stat caps and addition of finesse was never intended to give players more choices, as was said. It was to force us all into cookie cutter builds, because there will only be a certain way you can go to achieve whichever role or two roles your class is supposed to be good at.

At least the devs won't have to work on balancing out gear, right?

[MRNot]

Of course this is just an observation, without control, and won't help cement anyone's critical understanding of differences pre- & post-RoI, but I just wanted to add the following:

Due to a lottery win, I was playing a lowbie alt on an alt server, in this case, a lvl27 Warden, currently in North Downs, and horrifically undergeared (I'm talking some lvl18-19 crit crafted armour, lvl 23 skirmish weapon & shield, NO real jewelry to speak of (she hasn't been to Lone Lands, so even none of THAT comes into play)). I wanted to farm some sturdy hides for my tailor alt on that server, which meant trying to strong arm some auroch. I was missing with ambush more than I'd expect or like on dark blue-con beasts, lvl 25-26, or on-level, but I was still able to survive & take them down with only a couple of "Oh, #####!" moments when I accidentally pulled groups.. Fortunately, Kingsfell offers plenty of open ground for kiting.. hee hee. So, I continued on that, and also went out east of Est and did some orange-con auroch for a quest, and some wargs. Lots of ambush misses to be found, but I still didn't really get close to defeat. I'm getting further and further toward the end of the argument of "it's a change, but not really a nerf. Just gotta get used to the change." YMMV..

[Fin.]

The original question still stands and was not answered.

Accuracy was removed from the game, what replaces it?

[MRNot]

The original question still stands and was not answered.

Accuracy was removed from the game, what replaces it?

I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth, but I think a counter offer was made and that is that it's possible that there is no replacement needed for accuracy based on other balances, but that's not been demonstrated either way..

I think..

Goin' back to lurk-mode.

[Fin.]

I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth, but I think a counter offer was made and that is that it's possible that there is no replacement needed for accuracy based on other balances, but that's not been demonstrated either way..

I think..

Goin' back to lurk-mode.

Why is it so hard for devs to confirm it then?

Also Orion in one of the warden threads kinda confirmed that for example the +% hit from swords does not work as it should. If these things are supposed to be counter balance to removed accuracy and they don't work, then...

[MRNot]

Why is it so hard for devs to confirm it then?

Also Orion in one of the warden threads kinda confirmed that for example the +% hit from swords does not work as it should. If these things are supposed to be counter balance to removed accuracy and they don't work, then...

Yep.. True, true..

[probitas]

I'm curious as to why balancing is even necessary in PvE? Removing the ability of players to hit PvE mobs doesn't even make sense. That's the whole reason we play the game. And then, to design it such that only certain classes become favored by it (Agility classes like the Hunter and Burglar), seems very very odd to me, unless it was the intent to favor those classes.

Prior to ROI there was no issue at all. Now though, it seems that the only way for classes to correct these issues is to reach into their wallet and buy stat tomes, or gimp their combat. A longer fight due to lower damage (less might in favor of more agility) is the same as a longer fight due to more misses (more might in favor of less agility). No change from where I sit.

Was this done to increase store sales of stat tomes and damage/defense scrolls? Because if that's not the reason, it's surely not to provide more choice in how we get frustrated. What are we missing? Some other reason, maybe the PvMP? What?

[Bhoris_they_spider]

I dont have a problem with miss rates on my hunter due to the high agility. On my guardian (around 100 agility) fighting on-level mobs the miss rate is very high and will be absolutely horrible when fighting over level raid bosses etc. The other big problem is that interupts are simply no where near as reliable as they should be.

[Bhindi]

On my guardian (around 100 agility) fighting on-level mobs the miss rate is very high and will be absolutely horrible when fighting over level raid bosses etc. The other big problem is that interupts are simply no where near as reliable as they should be.

My concern exactly. I am missing interrupts left and right. My yellow capstone trait to restore power misses very often. Misses are a huge deal for a tank because the threat/interrupt isn't there. It's very frustrating. Some legacies and traits are almost worthless now (such as reducing kick cooldown) because the chance to miss is so high. Guardians have to hit to generate threat and toss up buffs like Guardian's Ward. I'm not saying whether or not this is intended, a nerf, etc. I just want to know how to compensate for it other than not wearing the Guardian raid gear to tank with. If someone could give me some ideas on how to significantly increase my hit I would appreciate it.

On a side note, I've been able to hold threat when tanking with my friends and kinnies for the most part, but they aren't amazingly geared or dps machines either. There are obviously much better guardians than myself out there doing a much better job of compensating for these issues and I'm asking for some information regarding solutions for this. Missing often at critical times definitely makes me a sad monkey.

[Alad.]

From 65 to 75, damage/hit has increased at an accelerated rate compared to previously (as the new gear tends toward glass cannon stats).

This is to be expected given the 10 extra levels. Otherwise, we'd be levelling up our characters for nothing.

This means that it's entirely possible that (relative to mob health) DPS is more effective now than it was at 65, even with the increased miss chance.

This doesn't negate the fact that dps was nerfed wrt miss chance.

Excuse me, it's entirely relevant in light of the contention made in this thread and others; that the increased miss represents an uncompensated nerf.

It does indeed represent an uncompensated nerf unless the means to reduce the miss chance itself back to previous levels is provided.

You seem like a smart enough guy to understand the dangers of confirmation bias.

You seem smart enough to realise that people don't enjoy being patronised.

Nobody is challenging that misses have increased. I am challenging the assumption that this represents a net reduction in effectiveness of DPS when both increases in damage per hit and the mob health increase are taken into account, particularly since this is being assumed as obvious, when it most certainly is not obvious given the data presented.

People have been stating observations, showing as much evidence as is available to them. I notice you're challenging them without providing evidence either. Not saying you're wrong, but where is your evidence? It's trivial to prove that dps at 75 is higher than dps at 65, thanks to the increase in base damage rating legacies, the removal of caps and the increase in offence% for the same rating. That, as you have already noticed, is not my point of contention. I'll save you the trouble: those who claim that net dps at 75 is lower than at 65 are obviously wrong unless they haven't maxed the dps legacies on their weapons (which is the only way skill damage has been increasing since level 50, apart from offence%). Offence % should have increased considerably for everyone. I think what frustrates them is that, were they not missing more, they would kill mobs faster, and that's perfectly understandable. In fact, by comparing the increase in dps with the increase in mob health, you're indirectly talking about time taken to kill a mob as well. More to the point, some people have brought up the important questions of reliability in interrupting inductions, debuffing, accruing aggro, etc... due to the increased miss chance, which has nothing to do with net dps.

The miss chance problem itself has to be solved, and solving it by increasing dps isn't sufficient.

Yes, that's precisely what we'd been talking about for several pages now. In the end, you and I have not been having the same conversation.

Indeed. It takes two to make a conversation.

Turbine have a nasty habit of nerfing some aspects of combat with every expansion. It's as if they run out of imagination every time, and figure that their only option for future enhancements which they know they have to provide, is to nerf some aspect so as to be able to bring it back up, knowing that players will get used to the new degraded state, if only because they don't have any other choice (except to leave).

My position regarding this miss chance issue is that it can only be analyzed by itself. It's meanigless to try and cover it up by increased offence and argue that overall dps hasn't decreased. Overall dps and offence are separate issues (to miss chance). So, yes, I disagree that people should talk about net dps at 75 compared to 65 when discussing this nerf. Miss chance has increased for Might melee classes, and it doesn't appear there's a clear option for restoring it, especially given Turbine's policy of making up stat bundles for every class and every item.

To conclude with a positive note, I used my level 68 burg to fight level 75 landscape mobs. He doesn't even have 600 agility yet, and I had absolutely no problems killing them, nor did I miss that often. (Just as I was killing level 15 boars with a new level 8 minstrel not later than today). How much agility is required is the answer which all melee classes would like to know obviously. I will do some miss chance testing in the near future to try and shed some light on this issue, unless someone does it first.

[Aloro]

The miss chance problem itself has to be solved, and solving it by increasing dps isn't sufficient.

You keep saying this, in different ways, but have yet to explain WHY increasing dps "isn't sufficient". Mathematically, increasing damage per hit can offset reduced chances to hit, resulting in the same total dps, or even greater dps overall (which is in fact the case - dps has clearly increased overall despite the greater miss chance now); examples have been given and the math is pretty clear.

So in what regard is it insufficient? Are you referring to interrupts here? To status effects? I'll point out that increasing overall dps - through any means - will reduce the number of interrupts and status effects.

Are you talking about the math here, or about a player's subjective experience?

[Fin.]

You keep saying this, in different ways, but have yet to explain WHY increasing dps "isn't sufficient". Mathematically, increasing damage per hit can offset reduced chances to hit, resulting in the same total dps, or even greater dps overall (which is in fact the case - dps has clearly increased overall despite the greater miss chance now); examples have been given and the math is pretty clear.

The math is pretty clear on that, if only and everything our skills do was x amount of damage. But that is not right is it?

Many classes rely on the skills to hit, to achieve some specific selfbuff or action/debuff on the mob. I would say maybe 10-20% of total skills classes have is pure dps, rest always carries some special effect on them.

It is much better to hit 8/9 times out of 10 and get the special effect triggered than hitting 5/6 times out of 10.

[anwar]

The original question still stands and was not answered.

Accuracy was removed from the game, what replaces it?

Raid gear and raid level legendaries

I suspect that it revolves around trying make it APPEAR as if the raid gear and weapons are a larger upgrade than they actually are. For example...say a sword has 20 more dps so it looks like a great upgrade BUT since it misses far more often nobody is getting "overpowered"....and basically staying about the same (you are nerfed if you're not in a hardcore raiding kin though ... no access to the really good "upgrades" that evens stuff out).

[Alad.]

So in what regard is it insufficient? Are you referring to interrupts here? To status effects?

Yes, of course!

I'll point out that increasing overall dps - through any means - will reduce the number of interrupts and status effects.

You mean the number of "required" interrupts, buffs and debuffs, because you'll be killing faster? Perhaps a little bit. Most fights that require/depend on those effects are pretty long, though, and a 20% shorter fight (assuming +20% dps) still doesn't relieve a captain, warden or guardian applying their heals/buffs/debuffs/aggro or a champ from clobbering, to avoid possible wipes, to take examples of melee skills that are directly affected by miss chance and of which the main feature is not damage.



On a totally separate note, lotro's miss chance concept is annoying, because the opponent doesn't have to do anything in the decision of whether you missed or not. It's just taking characters for drooling idiots who miss for no reason. So seeing this aberration take on more importance is regrettable.