NPC Names copied from Finnish - totally breaks immersion

[trancejeremy]

What I really found sort of troubling was the accents they gave Dwarves. Sort of played to negative stereotypes

[scruffras]

damn, and here I thought lotr was nothing at all like life on earth.... I was so convinced it was a completely different world and all its people inside so different from us (nevermind that there's 'men' around)

[Kamariin]

Being in Forochel brings a smile on my face every time. A big one.
Being able to understand Finnish and as my own native language is very similar to that (waves from Estonia), I didn't even realize at first that something was strange there. My total favourite is a npc who 24/7 speaks how they are tired of eating kala all the time. Kala means a fish so I can totally relate to that

Then I ran into a NPC named like my friend (it was kind of a strange experience because I'm too used with regular Ted-s,Fili-s or elvish names in Middle Earth.) Then another and another and another and I think I can make a virtual family reunion there

I was a bit sceptical about the tribe called "Rauta-lehmä" (Iron-Cows). It just doesn't sound good.. (a bit hard to imagine a mighty warrior from Iron...cow tribe) but as someone stated before, Iron-Buffalo is maybe what they meant.

All in all, Im happy to speak "forochelese" like some of my kinnies have stated.

[husaragi]

Elvish Presley!

Yeah, i agree. Elvish Parsley makes the best garnish

[Berephon]

I was a bit sceptical about the tribe called "Rauta-lehmä" (Iron-Cows). It just doesn't sound good.. (a bit hard to imagine a mighty warrior from Iron...cow tribe) but as someone stated before, Iron-Buffalo is maybe what they meant.

Actually Iron-aurochs, but we couldn't find any Finnish for aurochs. Extinct English cows didn't seem to make the vocabulary cut.

[Funniez]

Actually Iron-aurochs, but we couldn't find any Finnish for aurochs. Extinct English cows didn't seem to make the vocabulary cut.

Iron Bulls, maybe? But it's far too late now, and anyway, you did a fantastic job ... I am working my way through Forochel right now, and I absolutely love this zone. It is currently tied neck-and-neck with Evendim to be my favorite zone in the game so far. It is so epic!

[WychHazel]

Wut, I'm sure anyone from Wales would consider their own language to be pretty important.

Gaelic is Welsh (or vice versa if you prefer, it doesn't worry me). My uncle visited distilleries in Scotland and as a fluent Welsh speaker joined in the conversation in Gaelic between employees with no problem. The old Cornish language was Welsh too.

Similar with Brittany, Northern Spain, other parts of Europe too (heck it was a pan European civilisation going way back, after all - nothing to be proud about, it had its dark side as well). My biggest surprise was finding Hungarians speaking some Welsh (they even have the same Green, White, and Red in their flag, but we have the advantage of the Dragon - which they really liked when I took one over).

There's also this in the Washington Monument, in commemoration (which not that many people know about):

Fy iaith, fy ngwlad, fy nghenedl Cymru – Cymru am byth (My language, my land, my nation of Wales – Wales for ever)

The same uncle that visited Scottish distilleries, had his DNA checked, and the earliest his Celtic roots have been traced, are nudging 3,000 - 3,500 BC, and in Portugal.

Probably best to look at it all as a nice tribute to all the different traces of historical stories (e.g. the Mabinogion in Wales) from around Europe, and the ongoing struggle down the ages against great evil, many in battles long forgotten, fought by what are now mostly unknown individuals.

Bless them all. None of us today would be who we are without them.

[Funniez]

Gaelic is Welsh (or vice versa if you prefer, it doesn't worry me). My uncle visited distilleries in Scotland and as a fluent Welsh speaker joined in the conversation in Gaelic between employees with no problem. The old Cornish language was Welsh too.

Similar with Brittany, Northern Spain, other parts of Europe too (heck it was a pan European civilisation going way back, after all - nothing to be proud about, it had its dark side as well).

Sorry to get pedantic on you here, but this is a bit inaccurate.

The modern Celtic languages are are related, but the larger tree's trunk is split in two: the Brythonic and the Goidelic. Without going into the long history of how this came to be, we can view the individual languages as branches on the two divergent trunks.

On the Goidelic side, we have:
-Irish, or Gaeilge, which because of various reasons has several different dialects which are rapidly becoming very different from each other
-Scots Gaelic, or Gàidhlig
-Manx, or Gaelg

On the Brythonic side, we have:
-Welsh, or Cymraeg, which is certainly the most-spoken native Celtic language in use today
-Breton, or Brezhoneg, the language of Brittany
-Cornish, or Kernewek, which died out as a native spoken language quite some time ago, but a number of people have been working to revive it

EDIT: someone gave me negative rep for this - for explaining the differences in the Celtic languages, their places in the language tree, and their actual names? Hoooooo-kay ...

[Atheling]

Gaelic is Welsh (or vice versa if you prefer, it doesn't worry me). My uncle visited distilleries in Scotland and as a fluent Welsh speaker joined in the conversation in Gaelic between employees with no problem. The old Cornish language was Welsh too.

Similar with Brittany, Northern Spain, other parts of Europe too (heck it was a pan European civilisation going way back, after all - nothing to be proud about, it had its dark side as well). My biggest surprise was finding Hungarians speaking some Welsh (they even have the same Green, White, and Red in their flag, but we have the advantage of the Dragon - which they really liked when I took one over).

There's also this in the Washington Monument, in commemoration (which not that many people know about):

Fy iaith, fy ngwlad, fy nghenedl Cymru – Cymru am byth (My language, my land, my nation of Wales – Wales for ever)

The same uncle that visited Scottish distilleries, had his DNA checked, and the earliest his Celtic roots have been traced, are nudging 3,000 - 3,500 BC, and in Portugal.

Probably best to look at it all as a nice tribute to all the different traces of historical stories (e.g. the Mabinogion in Wales) from around Europe, and the ongoing struggle down the ages against great evil, many in battles long forgotten, fought by what are now mostly unknown individuals.

Bless them all. None of us today would be who we are without them.

As a first language Welsh speaker (yes, I learned English in school initially), I can only say that your uncle may well have sampled a wee bit much of the Scottish hospitality.

I cannot understand either Scots or Irish Gaelic. The languages are very different. It's like saying that one understands Sanskrit when a native English speaker. There are parts which can be guessed at and which sound eerily familiar - kind of like listening to a song through a detuned radio whilst both yourself and the singer are very drunk and from opposite ends of the country - but to understand and converse is another thing altogether. Breton is a little different, and you can converse in a pidgin kind of way even now - a few hundred years ago, even less difficulty. Native speakers of Cornish are kind of thin on the ground but it is understandable.

Anyways, I did enjoy the Welsh inspired names in Dunland. Draigoch still makes me chuckle (especially as he frequently appears to be blue to me for some reason!). Was very helpful when finding my way round when I guessed at what was meant by the place names - I'm going to blame those Southerners and their lack of mutations for the confusion... The real influence of Welsh upon Tolkien was, of course, upon the Elvish languages (Tolkien taught courses in Medieval Welsh at Leeds University btw). Doesn't help with vocabulary, but by goodness it separates those who can get their voiceless lateral fricatives right from those who can't.

[PhotoRob]

But that's not how you should pick names for a fantasy game!

{In response to: If they had a list of surnames they may have simply chosen it from there.}

Actually, I think that's the perfect way to pick names for a fantasy game.

[Caileen]

Actually Iron-aurochs, but we couldn't find any Finnish for aurochs. Extinct English cows didn't seem to make the vocabulary cut.

Alkuhärkä or Tarvas.

Must say i enjoyed Forochel to, felt a bit like home, even if i hate snow and winter.

[Incandesce]

I've recently encountered weirdly-named NPCs and places in the game. They are all direct words from Finnish. While Tolkien did use Finnish mythology in his works and based Elvish grammar on it, the game devs seem to have taken it a step further.

There seems to be a tribe called Rauta-lehmä in the North Downs. Rautalehmä is Finnish and directly translates to "Iron cow". Totally un-tolkienish. I also noticed that all the places in Forochel are from Finnish - Kauppa-kohta means trading point, Itä-maa means East land. There's also an NPC called Kekkonen in the game. Kekkonen was our president during the 60s and 70s. None of the names mentioned above exist in the books, so the devs have made them up.

Have the game devs found a finnish dictionary on sale somewhere? Names like these are entirely out of place and ruin the immersion for me, and I've noticed a lot of other Finns complaining as well.

I for one think you should be grateful. Thanks to Turbine, Finland can now tell the world that it is responsible for 3 modern day technological entities; Nokia, Vaisala, and now Forochel!

[josh13333]

As others have stated, it probably wasn't intentionally named after a Finnish politician very few of us have probably ever heard of, even if it was, it apparently took over 5 years for anybody to mention it, ect, ect.

Props to turbine for the awesome names. I think it fits in to the lore quite well.

[swattz101]

EDIT: someone gave me negative rep for this - for explaining the differences in the Celtic languages, their places in the language tree, and their actual names? Hoooooo-kay ...

People do wierd things around here sometimes. I wouldn't let it bother you. Hopefully you already decided that. :-)

+rep to counter. Would give you double for the etimology lesson if it was possible. I love learning about languages and enjoy the threads where +Berephone jumps in. He doesn't seem to have as much time playing forum lore-monkey now that he is also developing content.

[Funniez]

People do wierd things around here sometimes. I wouldn't let it bother you. Hopefully you already decided that. :-)

+rep to counter. Would give you double for the etimology lesson if it was possible. I love learning about languages and enjoy the threads where +Berephone jumps in. He doesn't seem to have as much time playing forum lore-monkey now that he is also developing content.

Aw, that is so sweet of you. I wasn't begging for rep (really!); I was just flabbergasted. Of all the posts I've made, this was the one someone slams me for? So bizarre!

Back to the fascinating discussion about names and languages! Best necro ever!

[Ardineck]

I like how we have the Iron Crown and a tribe translated to "Iron Cow"...

[tkroll]

On the Gaelic/Welsh thing - Finnish is a major language, unlike those. Also, the game has a good generator for character names, what's wrong with using it/making something like that?
It wouldn't bother me that much, but the names are just so ridiculous. They make absolutely no sense. Tolkien was a huge fan of Finnish, but he certainly would not have wanted Finnish presidents to becomes horned monsters in the woods.

Also I agree with the above posts - Americans, imagine that you are roleplaying, hunting for hides in the woods, then you suddenly run into Franklin Roosevelt, what would your feelings be like?

If he was in a wheelchair and wore glasses I would chuckle. Instead of Franklin it should be Teddy- he belongs in the wild.

I got a kick out of the cave that looked like the cave from Monty Python and the Holy Grail. And we never saw Evendim in the books, only had it referenced, well Evendim reminds me of the Tahoe Basin and I think its awesome. In ROTJ they filmed the Endor scences in the Redwoods- I work in the woods, took a number of college courses that were set in the Redwood/Doug Fir forest type and that didn't ruin ROTJ for me. Or how about We Were Soldiers I didn't know Coast Live Oaks and Valley Oaks grew in Vietnam.

Maybe I am weird but I like to find nods and references to places I know in most books and films. I also love to find references to other stories in them. For example the Nine Rings Inn in WoT or all the altered names straight out of Arthurian legends.

And come on how many in game player names would fit in Middle Earth? Some of them are a hoot.

About the only character I never want to see in any video game or story ever (unless I have the option of killing him in creative ways) is Jar Jar Binks.

[Gilean-EU]

As others have stated, it probably wasn't intentionally named after a Finnish politician very few of us have probably ever heard of, even if it was, it apparently took over 5 years for anybody to mention it, ect, ect.

Props to turbine for the awesome names. I think it fits in to the lore quite well.

Heh, I would say naming a tribe leader as Kekkonen would be just as much of a coincidence as if there was a Dunlending chief called Lincoln.

And every Finnish player has noticed it, personally I remember reading and writing about it in LOTRO forums back in 2007 But I guess most Finns were writing on Codemasters LOTRO forums back then so maybe people didn't mention about this here.

[Elemiire]

Personally, I don't think it breaks immersion at all.

I actually love walking into Forochel and seeing familiar names and being talked to in a watered down Finnish.

The Devs may or may have not pulled some of the names from a 'Finnish for Dummies' book, but I think it's a charming place if you move past the Finnish politician conspiracy theory that seems to be going on here.

[Berephon]

Heh, I would say naming a tribe leader as Kekkonen would be just as much of a coincidence as if there was a Dunlending chief called Lincoln.

Sorry, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, this is indeed completely coincidence. I named the character, and no, I never heard of President Kekkonen until this thread. It was quite literally pulled from a list of Finnish names.

[Nokor]

I heard of this great new tool that might be useful for turbine devs when creating names.
I went ahaed and did a serach on it, see the link below.

http://www.google.dk/#hl=en&output=s...w=1116&bih=937

[karakedi]

One of the things I most enjoy in Forochel, in addition to its austere beauty, is the use of modified Finnish to represent the language of the Lossoth. (The name Lossoth itself is Sindarin, meaning 'Snow Folk'). To the best of my knowledge, Tolkien does not provide samples of the Lossoth language, so Finnish is a good choice not only geographically but also as a tribute to JRRT, whose attraction to that language is well known.

I especially enjoy the opportunity to learn (or review) the very small amount of Finnish that appears in the names of places and people (and among their relatives, the Earth-kin farther south). And it seems to me that it is as appropriate to use Finnish for the Lossoth as it is to use Welsh to represent the speech of the Dunlendings, much as Tolkien himself used Old English for the Rohirrim (another Sindarin name) and Gothic for names of their northern relatives.

This appropriate use of real-world languages is one of the relatively hidden gems of LotRO, IMO.

[MrWarg]

Gaelic is Welsh (or vice versa if you prefer, it doesn't worry me). My uncle visited distilleries in Scotland and as a fluent Welsh speaker joined in the conversation in Gaelic between employees with no problem. The old Cornish language was Welsh too.

Welsh and Scots Gaelic are not mutually intelligible. Irish Gaelic and Scots Gaelic yes, but not Welsh.

[Yaksha42]

Sorry, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, this is indeed completely coincidence. I named the character, and no, I never heard of President Kekkonen until this thread. It was quite literally pulled from a list of Finnish names.

I don't want to sound like a jerk when I say this, but this was posted five years ago!

[josh13333]

I don't want to sound like a jerk when I say this, but this was posted five years ago!

I would assume he didn't read that, it's only 4 posts long after all.