I grow weary from all the negativity.

[hisoka-thorongil]

In your opinion...

I commented on another thread in a response to one of your posts... that you must not even bother reading the information that Sapience does share.

In case you have trouble finding the information Sapience has shared, there is that nice "Dev Tracker" feature. I would start there.

Tidbits about absolutely nothing matters not to me. Meaningful, key, and important information he does not care to share, at all. Instances, server lag, rubber-banding, not a peep. Instead, threads concerning these are either closed, or removed from the material world.

What's that 'other thread', btw. I've only posted three times in the past month.

[SirAndrose]

So I gather we can't call a dev stupid but we can call them lazy and childish?

So it would seem.

[TheCrossbow]

Tidbits about absolutely nothing matters not to me. Meaningful, key, and important information he does not care to share, at all. Instances, server lag, rubber-banding, not a peep. Instead, threads concerning these are either closed, or removed from the material world.

What's that 'other thread', btw. I've only posted three times in the past month.

Seriously? You don't care about tidbits but you miss some of the bigger stuff?

Let's start with... http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...LOTRO-Dev-Team .

For me, at least, it was a welcome bit of communication. But, again, no one in the dev team is required to post on the forums or communicate with us on any kind of regular basis. There are very good reasons for this which I won't re-hash here.

And, for your convenience, here is a link to the dev tracker where you can see that Sapience is quite active = http://forums.lotro.com/turbine_trac...earchid=&pp=25 .

Now, I don't expect you to read all of that... and I don't read it all either. But, I do keep up on the important things quite easily.

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...hance-of-Lotro is the other thread I referenced where you clearly make a statement as if you completely missed the actual statements made by Sapience.

[mr_toad]

.....
The problem is that everyone's definition of "enough communication" is completely different. And, because of that, no matter how much Sapience responds to questions, it will never be enough for some people. And, frankly, he should only really be communicating when he has information to share. Anything beyond that is his call.

Turbine releases as much info as any dev house I follow. I just don't know how to say this nicely enough, but if you can't understand the perils of releasing too much info that may be changed at a later date, then you haven't followed anything going on in the pc gaming industry for the past 15 years. This dilemma is hardly unique to Turbine.

Tidbits about absolutely nothing matters not to me. Meaningful, key, and important information he does not care to share, at all. Instances, server lag, rubber-banding, not a peep. Instead, threads concerning these are either closed, or removed from the material world.

What's that 'other thread', btw. I've only posted three times in the past month.

Sapience and other devs have commented a ton about server lag issues in the past. There was even a big semi-official feedback thread on lag. Sapience tried to distinguish between different types of perceived lag. So regardless of whether you think lag has been addressed to your satisfaction, it has been officially addressed on multiple occasions. I found out about all those official posts through the dev tracker.

Those of you who think you don't need to read the dev tracker and instead Turbine employees should be your secretary giving you personalized updates every time you complain are coming across, to me at least, as self-centered and entitled. Take some initiative and read the dev tracker. That's how it's worked for every game I've ever followed on the internet. To say that Turbine isn't up to par with communication, when I compare them to dozens of dev houses I've followed over the years, is one of the silliest accusations against them I've ever read.

[Sapience]

Tidbits about absolutely nothing matters not to me. Meaningful, key, and important information he does not care to share, at all. Instances, server lag, rubber-banding, not a peep. Instead, threads concerning these are either closed, or removed from the material world.

What's that 'other thread', btw. I've only posted three times in the past month.

I believe he is referring to this thread, where you also make statements that are not representative of the facts. I corrected your information there as well.

So let me share, yet again, that on some topics like Helm's Depp we have a schedule for the release of information and we'll follow it. Until then, no I can't share anything. I'm sorry. I have said this a number of times, perhaps you missed it.

As for lag, as mentioned above we've talked a very great deal about it. Made it clear were monitor it and take it very seriously. We also have made it clear that it's very challenging to track down as many people say 'lag' when they mean other performance issues.

Rubber-banding falls under lag.

I thank you for giving me the opportunity to point to a great example of questions we have addressed, maybe not given you the answers you want, but have addressed honestly and openly and how some people ignore that fact and still claim we've made, 'not a peep.'

[puffmama]

Well said. Very well said. Great thread, gets an important point across.

[hisoka-thorongil]

I believe he is referring to this thread, where you also make statements that are not representative of the facts. I corrected your information there as well.

So let me share, yet again, that on some topics like Helm's Depp we have a schedule for the release of information and we'll follow it. Until then, no I can't share anything. I'm sorry. I have said this a number of times, perhaps you missed it.

As for lag, as mentioned above we've talked a very great deal about it. Made it clear were monitor it and take it very seriously. We also have made it clear that it's very challenging to track down as many people say 'lag' when they mean other performance issues.

Rubber-banding falls under lag.

I thank you for giving me the opportunity to point to a great example of questions we have addressed, maybe not given you the answers you want, but have addressed honestly and openly and how some people ignore that fact and still claim we've made, 'not a peep.'

Acknowledging problems that have plagued the game for over a year now is not difficult; however, convincing players, like me, that besides you taking the matter 'very seriously', actually trying to fix the problem is what matter most. And, with the problem yet to be gone from many player's clients for over a year, your posting that you and your team 'take it very seriously' is not what I call very trustworthy.

This acknowledgment isn't communication. Here's a poorly written anecdote for you: "Yes, there is lag and rubber-banding issues." "So, what are you doing to solve this issue?" "Well, we take this seriously and will appear to do nothing at all for...over a year." This, while cheeky, is exactly what you've done. If I were to ask now, "So, what are you doing to solve this issue?" I would most probably get the exact same answer like you stated above. You may now see why your merely acknowledging problems doesn't count for anything.

As for that other post, I couldn't respond because I was subsequently banned for no apparent reason. I would like to most humbly suggest, with the profound certitude that nothing will thus change, that you may want to let me see what it was that I was banned for before I received the hammer. Just an idea to collect dust in the forum.

As an aside, how 'bout some information not pertaining to HD that tells the player-base whether or not Lotro will renew its licence with Lotr? You know, so that we don't buy the expansion and then find we can't play it because the game shuts down after a few months. If you can't say 'a peep', say so,

[Sapience]

As for that other post, I couldn't respond because I was subsequently banned for no apparent reason. I would like to most humbly suggest, with the profound certitude that nothing will thus change, that you may want to let me see what it was that I was banned for before I received the hammer. Just an idea to collect dust in the forum.

Banned? And yet you are posting here. You cannot post anywhere if you are banned. In fact you cannot see the forums at all if you are banned. So i think maybe there's an absense of facts in your comment. Again.

[hisoka-thorongil]

Banned? And yet you are posting here. You cannot post anywhere if you are banned. In fact you cannot see the forums at all if you are banned. So i think maybe there's an absense of facts in your comment. Again.

I was not able to log in or post for the past month, this ending finally yesterday. I thought I was indiscriminately banned. Also, I wish to let it be known that the rest of my post was ignored.

[wgco1]

Just by coincidence I made a post a couple of hours ago saying that all game forums are doom and gloom. Not just MMO forums, all of them. I am a regular in the Bethesda forums and they are exactly the same as here. We've been patient, Bethesda just cares about money, TES(The Elder Scrolls) games are being catered to the casuals, TES games are being dumbed down, and it goes on.

What's weird is that when I am in the forums I feel like I'm playing a broken down MMO that's dying and when I actually play, I have a blast, even after playing for over 6 years.

I love this freaking game.

You are right about other forums, it is not just game forums, go to movie and music and news forums OMG, it's like a Debbie Downer convention.. You want to see a negative game forum go over to TOR, no one can repel negativity of that magnitude..
I have been around LOTRO since phase 1 closed beta, I take a break from time to time, but over all I have been happy with LOTRO, there are many games out there that are far worse, LOTRO is not perfect, no game is, and I am just glad it is still here to play.

[Sapience]

I was not able to log in or post for the past month, this ending finally yesterday. I thought I was indiscriminately banned. Also, I wish to let it be known that the rest of my post was ignored.

Yes. It was "ignored" because I had directly addressed it ALL in a previous post. Once again, ignoring the answer you were given because you dislike it is not "not answering."

[hisoka-thorongil]

Yes. It was "ignored" because I had directly addressed it ALL in a previous post. Once again, ignoring the answer you were given because you dislike it is not "not answering."

I can see that the policy is going to be silence regarding the game's major problems (lag, bugs, instanced content, quality of content, store intrusion, log-in gimmicks, pvp, license renewal). Fine. Just so long as you and whoever told you not to say anything know that this sucks the patience of your player base dry. Thanks for talking to me.

[Legonist]

So i think maybe there's an absense of facts in your comment. Again.

"If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts." Albert Einstein

It is easy to pick and choose facts to support your point but harder to accept the truth.

I can see that the policy is going to be silence regarding the game's major problems (lag, bugs, instanced content, quality of content, store intrusion, log-in gimmicks, pvp, license renewal). Fine. Just so long as you and whoever told you not to say anything know that this sucks the patience of your player base dry. Thanks for talking to me.

This is as close to the truth as you can find on the forums these days. And anyone denies it then there is little anyone can do to save them from their own view.

[wakeandbacon]

"absence of evidence is not evidence of absence".......remember that from the discussion about ROI pre launch?
when dealing with people who were unhappy after feeling they were misled?
at some level a bit of mistrust should be understandable

[TheCrossbow]

I can see that the policy is going to be silence regarding the game's major problems (lag, bugs, instanced content, quality of content, store intrusion, log-in gimmicks, pvp, license renewal). Fine. Just so long as you and whoever told you not to say anything know that this sucks the patience of your player base dry. Thanks for talking to me.

Silence regarding the game's major problems? OK, now you are being willfully ignorant, when Sapience answered you in a previous post!

As for lag, as mentioned above we've talked a very great deal about it. Made it clear were monitor it and take it very seriously. We also have made it clear that it's very challenging to track down as many people say 'lag' when they mean other performance issues.

I don't agree with everything that Sapience and the dev team do... but, you are just being willfully ignorant in an attempt to justify your "anger" over nothing but a straw man (at best).

Let me guess... now you are going to claim you were "blind" for a month.

[mr_toad]

I can see that the policy is going to be silence regarding the game's major problems (lag, bugs, instanced content, quality of content, store intrusion, log-in gimmicks, pvp, license renewal). Fine. Just so long as you and whoever told you not to say anything know that this sucks the patience of your player base dry. Thanks for talking to me.

....
This is as close to the truth as you can find on the forums these days. And anyone denies it then there is little anyone can do to save them from their own view.

(in the above two quotes the underlining is mine for emphasis)

To equate someone's opinion about the game to be something close to truth is a form of arrogance and propaganda. Arrogance, because one or two people's opinions are now Truth. Propaganda, because you are trying to mislead others by falsely claiming opinions are facts. Everyone here is entitled to their own opinions. Every opinion is valid and deserves to be heard. But please don't start representing those opinions as "truth" because honestly it sounds ridiculous.

Don't get me wrong, I've really enjoyed and learned a lot from the discussion in this thread. I've learned a lot reading everyone's viewpoints, even ones I don't agree with. Some of the harshest criticisms I've read in this thread have inspired me to make my own laundry-list post of improvements that I recently put up in the Suggestions sub-forum. Of course, those suggestions, just like everything I post are my own opinion. Please, the moment I start saying my opinions are close to "truth" call me out on it.

[TheCrossbow]

"If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts." Albert Einstein

It is easy to pick and choose facts to support your point but harder to accept the truth.



This is as close to the truth as you can find on the forums these days. And anyone denies it then there is little anyone can do to save them from their own view.

All I will say is /facepalm. To say more would risk much...

[Beaniemooch]

I can see that the policy is going to be silence regarding the game's major problems (lag, bugs, instanced content, quality of content, store intrusion, log-in gimmicks, pvp, license renewal). Fine. Just so long as you and whoever told you not to say anything know that this sucks the patience of your player base dry. Thanks for talking to me.

Ok, gotta call horse-puckey on this one.

They have said unequivicably there will be no real update to pvp other than balancing. We may not like it, we may not care, we may be thrilled - but it's a definite answer.

They've said they monitor lag and are concerned. There's no answer that can satisfy anybody as to what they're doing other than "we're getting all new hardware for all servers and putting in round-the-clock personnel to sit and watch them". Not realistic so not sure what you expect them to say.

"Just so long as you an whoever told you not to say anything..." is a prime example of conspiracy theory, and quite frankly even I (frustrated as I get) don't believe Turbine employees sit around thinking up exploits and bugs to throw in the game and then claim oops. And by making comments like this you take away from what many people are trying to make a reasonable discussion.

I get frustrated because I think bugs like symbol drops on the wrong tier should be in Known Bugs threads. Lack of what I consider meaningful group content and raids frustrates me, because I see it as Turbine catering to a playstyle that holds zero appeal for me. And yeah, I post about it frequently enough I could probably copy and paste one post into several threads since I feel like I'm repeating myself. Doesn't mean I think they don't read it. I'm just worried my voice isn't the one they're listening to. And with all that I think it makes it more important than ever that we discuss - not insult and have our threads closed.

Your voices will never be heard if your post is deleted or your account banned. So try and keep it civil. Please.

[Legonist]

(in the above two quotes the underlining is mine for emphasis)

To equate someone's opinion about the game to be something close to truth is a form of arrogance and propaganda. Arrogance, because one or two people's opinions are now Truth. Propaganda, because you are trying to mislead others by falsely claiming opinions are facts. Everyone here is entitled to their own opinions. Every opinion is valid and deserves to be heard. But please don't start representing those opinions as "truth" because honestly it sounds ridiculous.

Don't get me wrong, I've really enjoyed and learned a lot from the discussion in this thread. I've learned a lot reading everyone's viewpoints, even ones I don't agree with. Some of the harshest criticisms I've read in this thread have inspired me to make my own laundry-list post of improvements that I recently put up in the Suggestions sub-forum. Of course, those suggestions, just like everything I post are my own opinion. Please, the moment I start saying my opinions are close to "truth" call me out on it.

There is never a clear truth as everyone has different views. I probably should have added "Truth is in the eye of the beholder" as that would have made my post seem less "forceful" and pointed out to people that there is no one clear truth and that it is all relative and based on the speakers opinion. It is always better to look at two sides and look somewhere in the middle for a good "equal truth" but in some discussions there are more people backing one side due to one side being more "right" or just more numerous.

My reasoning for being incredibly one sided is that I was neutral if not in support of turbines actions as a whole for a long time to no avail. If anything the things that myself and others pointed out things that were broken, outdated or ignored and were ignored even though we supported our claims with "facts', support and and "faith". After a time (year or so) of constructive criticism with not even one reply on any of the numerous topics i supported (PvMP changes, Hunter Revamp, New Ideas, Balance Issues and Bugs Fixes) i gave up on the possitive route and turned more cynical and "negative".

[Almagnus1]

Lack of what I consider meaningful group content and raids frustrates me, because I see it as Turbine catering to a playstyle that holds zero appeal for me.

I think this is a huge part in why I'm feeling so **BLAH** towards LotRO.

I like PvMP.... but it hasn't changed significantly since the last revamp, and will likely never change significantly ever again, due to dwindling playerbase as LotRO enters it's twilight. Heck, even Sapience has basically spelled out that the PvMP playerbase is an extreme minority within the general population, so this ship has sailed to the West. This is also why I've been logging a lot of time in LoL [League of Legends] and MWO [MechWarrior Online]

And while I like group content, I'm getting sick of the scaled stuff. I want newer content, and I'd like it as frequently as we see it in other MMOs.... Again, as Sapience has said, the population isn't here, so while we will get some new content here, after the Erebor cluster, I'm not overly positive that it's going to be something difficult for 3 and 6 man content.

Maybe it's time for me to move on from LotRO.

[hisoka-thorongil]

Ok, gotta call horse-puckey on this one.

They have said unequivicably there will be no real update to pvp other than balancing. We may not like it, we may not care, we may be thrilled - but it's a definite answer.

They've said they monitor lag and are concerned. There's no answer that can satisfy anybody as to what they're doing other than "we're getting all new hardware for all servers and putting in round-the-clock personnel to sit and watch them". Not realistic so not sure what you expect them to say.

"Just so long as you an whoever told you not to say anything..." is a prime example of conspiracy theory, and quite frankly even I (frustrated as I get) don't believe Turbine employees sit around thinking up exploits and bugs to throw in the game and then claim oops. And by making comments like this you take away from what many people are trying to make a reasonable discussion.

I get frustrated because I think bugs like symbol drops on the wrong tier should be in Known Bugs threads. Lack of what I consider meaningful group content and raids frustrates me, because I see it as Turbine catering to a playstyle that holds zero appeal for me. And yeah, I post about it frequently enough I could probably copy and paste one post into several threads since I feel like I'm repeating myself. Doesn't mean I think they don't read it. I'm just worried my voice isn't the one they're listening to. And with all that I think it makes it more important than ever that we discuss - not insult and have our threads closed.

Your voices will never be heard if your post is deleted or your account banned. So try and keep it civil. Please.

Starting with the last sentence first, are you accusing me of not being civil? I'm perplexed as to its inclusion at the end.

Secondly, I don't think you understand what I mean by silence. Turbine have a policy of not mentioning broken parts of their game, such as pvp. They have merely acknowledged that they have "no updates planned." In other words, they can't admit that pvp is broken, but they'll sure milk the daylights out of it in the store! For this reason, they waffle over faux support and abandonment in their PR, without ever telling us the facts of the matter.

They have indeed said they have monitored the lag, but the lag has been constant since the Great River, well over a year ago. How long are they going to keep monitoring and finally *do* something? Or how about acknowledging that the problem is so pernicious that nothing can be done. I would love that! But at the moment, we're in the dark besides the cryptic messages you have described.

Nor do I think Turbine think up bugs to throw at us. Please don't insinuate that I, or anyone else concerned in this thread and others about the state of the game, am/is that naive. What I do know is that Turbine is beholden to WB, and ultimately profit, in order for this game to function. You think Sapience has free reign over what he says? Of course not. He has someone over his shoulder telling him what the limits are.

[hisoka-thorongil]

Silence regarding the game's major problems? OK, now you are being willfully ignorant, when Sapience answered you in a previous post!



I don't agree with everything that Sapience and the dev team do... but, you are just being willfully ignorant in an attempt to justify your "anger" over nothing but a straw man (at best).

Let me guess... now you are going to claim you were "blind" for a month.

[Damojo]

What I do know is that Turbine is beholden to WB, and ultimately profit, in order for this game to function. You think Sapience has free reign over what he says? Of course not. He has someone over his shoulder telling him what the limits are.

So, Sapience is no different to any other games developer's employee then, in that he has limits on what he can and can't say. And surely all games are run for profit?

[Rainothon]

Starting with the last sentence first, are you accusing me of not being civil? I'm perplexed as to its inclusion at the end.

Secondly, I don't think you understand what I mean by silence. Turbine have a policy of not mentioning broken parts of their game, such as pvp. They have merely acknowledged that they have "no updates planned." In other words, they can't admit that pvp is broken, but they'll sure milk the daylights out of it in the store! For this reason, they waffle over faux support and abandonment in their PR, without ever telling us the facts of the matter.

They have indeed said they have monitored the lag, but the lag has been constant since the Great River, well over a year ago. How long are they going to keep monitoring and finally *do* something? Or how about acknowledging that the problem is so pernicious that nothing can be done. I would love that! But at the moment, we're in the dark besides the cryptic messages you have described.

Nor do I think Turbine think up bugs to throw at us. Please don't insinuate that I, or anyone else concerned in this thread and others about the state of the game, am/is that naive. What I do know is that Turbine is beholden to WB, and ultimately profit, in order for this game to function. You think Sapience has free reign over what he says? Of course not. He has someone over his shoulder telling him what the limits are.

Perhaps a little reason is in place here? You're entitled to all your anger, but when it's out and vented, maybe you can let some reason sink in?

PvP is not broken in the unplayable sense. You actually can PvP. You may not like it's current state at all, but there are players out there enjoying PvP. I think there are issues like rankfarming and balance.

The rubberbanding is there. It's annoying at times. For a solo player it is not game breaking. What gripes me most about the rubberbanding is just how freaking amazing mounted combat would be if it were totally smooth. Underneath the rubberbanding is a true diamond screaming to shine in it's full glory.

Turbine has acknowledged all of this and all of this is under their attention. If they find a solution that'll solve something within reasonable cost limits, they'll surely put it high on their priority list. Past attempts have indeed been made. Iirc Turbine has stated there is alas no quick fix for the lag/rubberbanding. That is really the same as 'we cannot fix it right now', just worded differently.

Monitoring sounds rrrreally passive. But it's actually an action that has to be performed that delivers results that have to be interpreted, followed by a concious decision: is there any fruitful action we can do/have to do at this time or not. Trust me, I monitor stuff professionally. It is not as passive as many believe it to be.

[Fralin]

The rubberbanding is there. It's annoying at times. For a solo player it is not game breaking. What gripes me most about the rubberbanding is just how freaking amazing mounted combat would be if it were totally smooth. Underneath the rubberbanding is a true diamond screaming to shine in it's full glory.

Turbine has acknowledged all of this and all of this is under their attention. If they find a solution that'll solve something within reasonable cost limits, they'll surely put it high on their priority list. Past attempts have indeed been made. Iirc Turbine has stated there is alas no quick fix for the lag/rubberbanding. That is really the same as 'we cannot fix it right now', just worded differently.

Monitoring sounds rrrreally passive. But it's actually an action that has to be performed that delivers results that have to be interpreted, followed by a concious decision: is there any fruitful action we can do/have to do at this time or not. Trust me, I monitor stuff professionally. It is not as passive as many believe it to be.

I agree on most of this tbh. MC has been made a LOT smoother since the late alpha/early beta last summer (although the beta had the tag "beta" it felt like alpha, which was also what some bloggers tested two weeks prior to the official beta testing). Is it as smooth as could be, no but it is a lot better than what it was, hopefully (although I'm not keeping my breath) they get it smoothed out a lot more as well.
Yes, saying you monitor something does come across as a passive action to most people. Saying that you're trying to find the cause that multiple people in multiple setting experience lag in a number of ways comes across as a more active approach... although the action is the same. So in the end it all comes down to HOW you say something. On the other hand, saying you monitor things gives you more time before people start to get pissed for nothing to happen... and lets face it, a year is quite a long time for any MMO. All we know is, something happened with u6 and the underlaying issue would seem to still not be fixed (although it could have been and we're just experiencing another typpe of lag).

Credit where credits due though. When Sapience answers it is, for most of the time, straight asnwers that, i believe, are in accordance to what he is allowed to say in the first place. As he said himself, there is a release schedule on new things and wether we like it or not things aren't getting released prior to set dates. We just have to live with this, nothing we can do really.
With that being said there is another issue that I think tend to piss people off. That would be that at times it feels that one arm of Turbine don't know what the other is doing. Let me give you a few examples:

LB weekend - Multiple insignias/keys dropped, HH farmed to death (literally) to get Mordrith's brand... brand nerfed on wednesday.
BG farm - Multiple reports posted in BR forums and bugs filed for Durchest dropping disproportionately large amount of loot, including SAs which were top tier at the time, compared to time spent and other instances. Fixed in a "hotfix" a couple of weeks afterwards and filed as an unintended bug... which seemingly would have slipped all the way through Palantir and all BR builds without getting adressed. Fair enough, it could have been just miscommunication I suppose.
BfE farm - Threads and reports and bugs filed that this encounter had the same problem that Durchest did two months earlier... Nothing being done about it and it being released broken in terms of intended loot. Fixed a couple of weeks later.
Horselords farm - Farm in instance A to get the recipe, instance A drops nerfed, move farm to instance B, instance B nerfed, move...

Now, all of these would seemingly be easy fix, for most of them just fix the droptables before release. Why it wasn't done we can only speculate about BUT when the same reason is given for each and every one of them (bug/unintended) it starts to ring hollow. Especially since people talked about the issues this would cause if it went live... and when it went live, those exact same issues were what it caused.
Yes, Sapience and his crew follow the forums and pass on things to the devs, yet if obvious issues are not fixed (even though mentioned on forums and bug reports) prior to live it begs the question: Is the chain too long for vital information to reach devs in time?


Back to the OP however. When I first joined the forums there were a lot less negativity on here so I'd say the amount of negative posts have increased in recent years. I do not think that it is essentially communication that is behind that, but rather the release of broken contents over and over again that has caused it

PS. I found it ironically funny that it took months before the broken bug reporting tool became a bug.