A nice polite forum

[Jinjaah]

So would this capability be modified for skirmisher BA's as well then? They've been doing this for a couple years now. Its not that I disagree, it's just that if what you say is true, then its true. Period. Regardless of class or faction.

This is a fair point. I think there is some philosophical differences in the blue line hunter and the BA, but is something work considering before any changes are made.

-Jinjaah

[Jinjaah]

I would like to see some kind of other ways to reduce trap cooldown in Trapper to make it more useful in group. Currently, the only one way to get Trap cooldown reduced is getting hit, which is fine in solo and pvp, but hard to achieve in group (though mobs mostly hit you like a moquisto compared to your huge morale pool and increased potency of healers). Suggestion: Make trap cooldown reduced when a trap is successfully triggered (5s per trap, for example)

Also, I wonder what Trap Parts will do when it is introduced. Currently, Trapper has all ability of past-crafted traps (Tripple Trap, Lure Trap, Tripwire, Quick Trap, not sure about Bear Trap), so I would hope trap parts will do something more creative than making triple trap into quartuple trap.

About Camouflage's animation, currently, a hunter needs to stand still to use, and there is 3s of rooting in one place. I hate this so much that I rather use Improved Focus and shoot my skill. I guess the reason here is to make sure that player won't accidentally break the stealth when camouflage is in its animation. Suggest: Let camouflage useable on-move with a short duration buff for being movable in in stealth (3s, maybe), and moving will certainly break the stealth after the buff is expired. I think it will encourage more the stealth-sniping hunter playstyle.

Any plan to improve Strength of the Earth? Currently, it is suck as recovery skill because press onward is a lot nicer recovery skill with la convenient off-specs investment. As a focus regen skill, Huntsman regen focus so fast that this skill contributes insignificantly, and it is out of reach for other trees to get. Suggestion: Improve it into a better skill. Or put it at the first tier of Huntsman together with the focus regen trait, so it it is accessable to othe trees.

1. Traps cooldowns need some love. We have talked about different ways to address this internally.
2. Yes Trap Parts are my current failing but are definitely on the agenda at some point.
3. I can see what I can do with camo but the reason it is the way it is may be tech concerns.
4. Strength of Earth needs to go on a Makeover show. I agree it needs some love.

-Jinjaah

[Alakin93]

1. Traps cooldowns need some love. We have talked about different ways to address this internally.
2. Yes Trap Parts are my current failing but are definitely on the agenda at some point.
3. I can see what I can do with camo but the reason it is the way it is may be tech concerns.
4. Strength of Earth needs to go on a Makeover show. I agree it needs some love.

-Jinjaah

Finally a dev answering, thanks Jinjaah! At least someone there who cares about us
I dont know if someone else posted it already, but are you guys aware that cry of the hunter doesnt remove slows and didnt get scaled to 95 morale?
It's life saving in Pvp!

[Jinjaah]

Finally a dev answering, thanks Jinjaah! At least someone there who cares about us
I dont know if someone else posted it already, but are you guys aware that cry of the hunter doesnt remove slows and didnt get scaled to 95 morale?
It's life saving in Pvp!

Yes this is a bug that I believe has been fixed for 12.2. I will double check though.

-Jinjaah

[Alakin93]

Yes this is a bug that I believe has been fixed for 12.2. I will double check though.

-Jinjaah

Awesome, thanks Jinjaah!

[Bond007]

Every time I look at this forum I can't help but smile that a dev is talking with us... hurray! Thanks for the answers Jinjaah, this has already become a great informative thread

[medwulf]

Just wanted to mention a bug that I saw during RoR which seems to have made it into HD. After breaking Camo, either shooting or moving, occasionally the icon for Camo has the 'active border' around the skill, and the Camo skill needs to be pressed manually. In other words after breaking Camo it does not go on cooldown, but remains in it's active state even though my hunter is not in stealth, so I have to press Camo again for it to go on CD. Relogging fixes it for the time being.

Also I was wondering about Strong Intimidation, the old trait is now a bonus in trapper line that increases fear duration, but since we only have Bard's Arrow as a fear skill, can this trait be reworked a little bit, say something to do with trap duration or can you bring back Cry of the Predator

[Ravyrn]

Jin - thank you for your willingness to come on here, and answer questions. For the most part, I really like the changes, and look forward to the upcoming tweaks as they occur. Maybe you can answer a question for me - I'm having problems completing the Level 58 Class deed - Path of the Trapper. Is it bugged? I've completed all three quests in the quest line, but never got the deed or the completion of it. I do remember (I think) cancelling the quest when I was in Moria at the time (yellow line wasn't as appealing as it is now), and now none of the hunter trainers have the original quest. I've bugged it, submitted a ticket (just seeing if a GM could complete the deed for me), and even talked with accounts on the phone. I have not seen it addressed. Was curious as to your thoughts?

Thanks again for all the hard work on our class.

You need to goto Orc Watch to find the quest. Try to figure out which quest in the chain you didn't finish and go pick it up and complete the questline. I was missing it also and had to backtrack and found the quest I was missing in the Redhorn Lodes at Orcwatch. Feel free to PM me if you need any help trying to figure out what you're missing. It took me about 2 hours of searching between google and ingame. As far as I know, it's not bugged, since I was able to go back and complete it. You just have to know where to look. Your missing quests are likely in Orcwatch.

[Martigan]

Glad to see yellow getting some love in pvp!

1. Yeah the stealth track will be update 13, but then we can talk about how it will return as it seems people have differing opinions why.
2. Yeah the skill delays are always something i actively look to squish.
3. I'm not sure if there is but I can speak with engineering on this issue. Dangerous things can happen if we do not strip most effects off of you upon switch sadly.
4. I will take a look at the cost progression, it could be the formula blew up fixing a different issue.

-Jinjaah

Cheers pal

[Sabian49]

You need to goto Orc Watch to find the quest. Try to figure out which quest in the chain you didn't finish and go pick it up and complete the questline. I was missing it also and had to backtrack and found the quest I was missing in the Redhorn Lodes at Orcwatch. Feel free to PM me if you need any help trying to figure out what you're missing. It took me about 2 hours of searching between google and ingame. As far as I know, it's not bugged, since I was able to go back and complete it. You just have to know where to look. Your missing quests are likely in Orcwatch.

As I have finished the deed before the launch of HD, the deed is indeed bugged my good sir

[Ravyrn]

As I have finished the deed before the launch of HD, the deed is indeed bugged my good sir

So you finished the deed before the expansion and didn't get credit for it? It must be isolated instances then. As there are players who finished it before HD that did get credit. I wasn't one of them. I finished it afterward, and was able to complete the deed. I'm trying to troubleshoot it in another thread. If you wouldn't mind, could you compare your completed lvl 58 hunter quests to the 5 that I posted. Specifically, I'm interested to know if you completed the fellowship quest. I don't want to keep this discussion going in this thread as it's off-topic, but if you'd respond to this post in the other thread, I'd greatly appreciate it. Other thread.

[Snowlock]

Agreed on the emergency skill hole, don't have a good answer for that at this time. Your other suggestions are definitely something to consider, will look into it. The needful haste rumor you heard was actually an error on my implementation. I removed it because it was never intended to be there. I think we can work something out though.

-Jinjaah

The good answer is low cut slow removal. Seriously:

• it's melee. If we want to remove the slow on us we have to give the opponent a chance to reapply it
• it's non-target. It takes some skill to land the low cut to remove the slow. The slow removal attempt can miss
• It's not a sprint, a bubble or a major heal, all of which can quickly become OP on a ranged class
• We've had it before. We've had this twice before and the hunters that used it liked it and saw their survivability increase. And it didn't break the moors
• There's opportunity cost. We're using a spammable cure to fight off a spammable slow, if we are activating low cut, we're not hitting Pen-shot. Its a choice.
• The Low Cut trait to use it on is three levels deep in bowmaster, currently called Quick Escape. Instead of applying a root, it would remove a slow. It would be a tool for the stationary hunter, unavailable to the shooting on the move huntsman.

Speaking from experience in the times I've had that over the years, it was all the survivability the hunter needed and still didn't make me invincible, and it opened up the class to a 2nd playstyle, the kiter, from just the standard hunter-turret.

And, there's no negative impact on PVE.

[Ravyrn]

The good answer is low cut slow removal. Seriously:

• it's melee. If we want to remove the slow on us we have to give the opponent a chance to reapply it
• it's non-target. It takes some skill to land the low cut to remove the slow. The slow removal attempt can miss
• It's not a sprint, a bubble or a major heal, all of which can quickly become OP on a ranged class
• We've had it before. We've had this twice before and the hunters that used it liked it and saw their survivability increase. And it didn't break the moors
• There's opportunity cost. We're using a spammable cure to fight off a spammable slow, if we are activating low cut, we're not hitting Pen-shot. Its a choice.
• The Low Cut trait to use it on is three levels deep in bowmaster. It would be a tool for the stationary hunter, most unavailable to the shooting on the move huntsman.

Speaking from experience in the times I've had that over the years, it was all the survivability the hunter needed and still didn't make me invincible, and it opened up the class to a 2nd playstyle, the kiter, from just the standard hunter-turret.

And, there's no negative impact on PVE.

I disagree with this. I think hunters are in a good spot atm in the Moors. I do well in 1v1s. I lose some and win some. I do good in small groups. And I can get away from the pain train in raids if I'm grouped with a versatile group of smart players. Low cut slow removal would be too much. I agree Cry of the Hunter requires fixing, but I think your suggestion is overstepping the scales of balance. I acknowledge the fact I'm r13 and so there may be a disparity in my opinion compared to that of lower ranks. But there must be other avenues than a 5s slow removal cd. I play both sides of the fence, and many blue line and yellow line hunters do well against my reaver and warg in 1v1s. The slow removal would be overstepping the bounds of balance imo. I think they should fix stealth track and cry of the hunter and then we go from there.

EDIT: I misunderstood the context of this suggestion ,and if it is red line gated, can't really disagree with the suggestion.

[Snowlock]

I disagree with this. I think hunters are in a good spot atm in the Moors. I do well in 1v1s. I lose some and win some. I do good in small groups. And I can get away from the pain train in raids if I'm grouped with a versatile group of smart players. Low cut slow removal would be too much. I agree Cry of the Hunter requires fixing, but I think your suggestion is overstepping the scales of balance. I acknowledge the fact I'm r13 and so there may be a disparity in my opinion compared to that of lower ranks. But there must be other avenues than a 5s slow removal cd. I play both sides of the fence, and many blue line and yellow line hunters do well against my reaver and warg in 1v1s. The slow removal would be overstepping the bounds of balance imo. I think they should fix stealth track and cry of the hunter and then we go from there.

This is for red line hunters, not yellow or blue. There's a trait on the third tier of the red line called Quick Escape, that currently applys a root to a landed Low Cut, I'm saying change it to turn Low Cut into a slow remover. Blue and yellow hunters will be unchanged.

[Ravyrn]

This is for red line hunters, not yellow or blue. There's a trait on the third tier of the red line that adds a bleed to lowcut, I'm saying change it to turn low cut into a slow remover. Blue and yellow hunters will be unchanged.

Oh, my apologies for being misinformed. I don't do the forums often so I must've overlooked that. I think red lines hunters should sacrifice a lot in terms of survivability, but I won't argue against that suggestion. They're pretty much sitting ducks, so that'd at least give them a fighting chance.

[YesMaam]

I disagree with this. I think hunters are in a good spot atm in the Moors. I do well in 1v1s. I lose some and win some. I do good in small groups. And I can get away from the pain train in raids if I'm grouped with a versatile group of smart players. Low cut slow removal would be too much. I agree Cry of the Hunter requires fixing, but I think your suggestion is overstepping the scales of balance. I acknowledge the fact I'm r13 and so there may be a disparity in my opinion compared to that of lower ranks. But there must be other avenues than a 5s slow removal cd. I play both sides of the fence, and many blue line and yellow line hunters do well against my reaver and warg in 1v1s. The slow removal would be overstepping the bounds of balance imo. I think they should fix stealth track and cry of the hunter and then we go from there.

While you may be correct about it being doable the point is we are shafted compared to all other classes in this paticular department. People like snowlock aren't demanding a I win button rather a simple skill that allows us survival.

LM: Huge hots, Wisdom of council full heal and stunning, pets
Champ: Don't even need to explain... Bubbles, heals, sprint
Guard: Don't even need to explain... Full heals, sprint
Burg? Hips's, non stop evade and find footing
RK: Stones and armor of storm, self healing, good mobility
Captain: Bubble, IWLS, Healing, infinity more
Minstrel: Flop 30 sec cd, huge healing, mobility

Hunters: 1700 morale bubble that stuns for fraction of a second and removes slows so that a slow can be reapplied and bubble eliminated within 2 seconds. Only self healing is pressonward which is comparable to 1 of any of the above class heals only if you stand still for an induction. Good CC.

The point is hunters may have excellent CC, slows and a skill that bulds up morale after a fight for a portion but has nothing to keep you alive for more than 30 seconds.

If you did a test again 1 high DPS NPC or creep you would find the hunter would die 5X faster than any other class in the game, or creep

We may be able to cope with this difference but and I'm not saying put us on par with burgs lol, but seriously give us something to survivie for 60 seconds instead of 30 for crying out hunter.

[Ravyrn]

While I'm discussing things on this thread... I figure I'll put in my two copper. Stealth track, camo animation, and cry of the hunter slow removal are all things I can agree with that require attention. On a different note, I think blue line hunters, compared to red line, possess far too much dps given their mobility. I think blue line hunter dps should be tuned down by about 10%. I'm sure many will disagree with me, but as someone who plays both side of the fence, blue line gains far too much mobility without sacrificing an equal amount of dps compared to red line.

[Ravyrn]

While you may be correct about it being doable the point is we are shafted compared to all other classes in this paticular department. People like snowlock aren't demanding a I win button rather a simple skill that allows us survival.

LM: Huge hots, Wisdom of council full heal and stunning, pets
Champ: Don't even need to explain... Bubbles, heals, sprint
Guard: Don't even need to explain... Full heals, sprint
Burg? Hips's, non stop evade and find footing
RK: Stones and armor of storm, self healing, good mobility
Captain: Bubble, IWLS, Healing, infinity more
Minstrel: Flop 30 sec cd, huge healing, mobility

Hunters: 1700 morale bubble that stuns for fraction of a second and removes slows so that a slow can be reapplied and bubble eliminated within 2 seconds. Only self healing is pressonward which is comparable to 1 of any of the above class heals only if you stand still for an induction. Good CC.

The point is hunters may have excellent CC, slows and a skill that bulds up morale after a fight for a portion but has nothing to keep you alive for more than 30 seconds.

If you did a test again 1 high DPS NPC or creep you would find the hunter would die 5X faster than any other class in the game, or creep

We may be able to cope with this difference but and I'm not saying put us on par with burgs lol, but seriously give us something to survivie for 60 seconds instead of 30 for crying out hunter.

You make a very good point. And I can't argue against all the other freep classes having oh $#@t skills and us not. What I'm arguing though, is that blue line and yellow line do have the potential to keep an individual creep far enough away to where we don't need them. I'm not against us receiving similar skills, but if we do, I would hope they would be gated behind a huge drop in dps. On the note of CC, I'm not sure why we lost cry of the predator, but I think we should have that back, as well as the ability to df in the moors every 30 minutes. If everyone can hips every 90s, what's the harm in us shooting the deuce every 30m? As someone who often 1v1s late at night when the action slows on Gladden (Usually only a few people on each side after 1am CST), I can tell you LMs and RKs go down much quicker than most the hunters I fight. Admittedly, both my mains on each side are significantly ranked compared to most the players I come across on our moderately populated server, so my assessment will likely differ from those of you on servers w/ higher populations and a much higher average rank.

I appreciate the respectful dialogue with you guys and thank Jinjaah for taking the time to address concerns within our community.

[Ravyrn]

Admittedly, I'm probably creep biased atm, as I am currently predominantly leading on creepside. But on Gladden, at least, when it's raid vs raid, freeps generally have 4-6 hunters (spread out in battles) and 4-6 minis/rks who have awesome heals. My main concern, is overcompensation. As it stands, when I lead raids, we have to time impales to burn targets down through their heals. I generally go after a few healers, then target a couple hunters to try and burn down some of the dps. It takes considerable focus fire, as it stands, for us to be successful and honestly the freeps on our server aren't near as organized as the creeps, as they are largely factioned and don't all get along/group together. I wouldn't mind seeing a little love that would benefit a hunter in the smaller scale of things (solo or small group), but it's a very delicate matter as just the slightest adjustment will have a huge impact in raid vs raid situations, imo. With that said, I still think blue and yellow line hunters are in a very good place in the Moors. Red line isn't really, but I think anyone who traits it out there does so at their own risk. I never red line out there unless I'm in a raid with people I can rely on for heals and support.

[Snowlock]

But on Gladden, at least, when it's raid vs raid, freeps generally have 4-6 hunters (spread out in battles) and 4-6 minis/rks who have awesome heals.

Another reason why for a parachute skill low cut slow remover is preferable. The tricky part of hunters has always been the multiplicative nature when you're stacking them in groups or raids. Solo they're not tough, but raids that are hunter heavy can be devastating. If you put a bubble in there, or self heals, or sprints or some kind of a moving target, then you've got a raid full of hunters which could be unkillable for a while.

In RvR if hunters are popping slows, you can still kill them at range or catch them and slow them with stuns or sprints. They don't become any less squishy, or any faster.

[Tirian-Hammerfist]

Sorry to slightly hijack this forum, but as Jinjaah is the chief Moors dev (as far as I remember) I wondered if you plan upon asking for a similar discussion thread from Ettenmoors players, considering that its currently in a worse state than all these classes you are currently discussing?

[TKH]

3. I can see what I can do with camo but the reason it is the way it is may be tech concerns.
-Jinjaah

This makes you the first Dev ever replying my post, :P

About camoflage's tech issue, I guess it would hard to make a movable stealth skill become unmovable one after a short duration. Here is another suggestion: Make Camouflage let hunter enter stealth just like how a burglar does. Hunter can still move after camouflage, but will be extremely slow, even slower than racial skills like Hobbit-stealth and Silvan Shadow (like minus 80-90pct of speed). This can be gated as trait set for Bowmaster.

Another question: Any plan to improve Scourging Blow? As a huntsman, I never see how this skill can benefit hunter more than using one of ranged skills at melee range. The bleed cash out looks not worth to use compared to a low cut.

[Bond007]

Another reason why for a parachute skill low cut slow remover is preferable. The tricky part of hunters has always been the multiplicative nature when you're stacking them in groups or raids. Solo they're not tough, but raids that are hunter heavy can be devastating. If you put a bubble in there, or self heals, or sprints or some kind of a moving target, then you've got a raid full of hunters which could be unkillable for a while.

In RvR if hunters are popping slows, you can still kill them at range or catch them and slow them with stuns or sprints. They don't become any less squishy, or any faster.

I would agree with this. All creep dps classes have the potential to counter slows, and it is very simple to counter slows from a 30m range class. Reaver has resilience -> blade toss both on very short cds now, with against the odds to reset them. BA has a greater range, and a potent slow. Spider has CC to keep their target within range (also, they have 30m range on their dps skills as well). Warg has sprint on a very short cooldown along with a number of stuns/fear slows. And if all those really fail, you always have the environment around you to mess with ranged classes

I don't exactly have very good ideas on how to implement a slow removal, but Snowlock, as you said, I agree that this could be tied into the Quick Escape trait somehow. I would argue maybe having the skill have two tiers, with one implementing the root, and one implementing the slow removal, but I am not sure if that would impact trait trees in any way (I am not sure if they measured it out so that each trait tree has exactly the same number of point as the others). Thoughts on this style of implementation?

[Milithion]

i would like to see 3 things changed:

hidden stalker as a normal trait in the red tree, not as a passive. i find it not worth it as a tier 6 passive. it cost a lot of time to use. 3 seconds till you are in the vanish, and works only for one shot. hey if i'm using improved focus i have a lower effect for a longer duration... but am alot more agile. also i could use it only once a fight.

an additional tier 3 trait in the yellow tree, that allows us to track stealth creatures. (btw: wouldn't be one tracking skill enough?)

purge poison should be a trait, not a passive. i would like to be able to skill the trapper in raids, and be able to take the poison form both groups. currently that is not possible what reduces the usability of this line for groupplay.

[Mildford]

I'd like to see stealth track to be a passive - it has no impact on PvE and HS was pretty much static in Ettenmoors trait builds pre-HD.

But oh well, it's better than having no stealth tracks at all.