Bullroarer Update 23 (Build #1) - Preview and General Feedback

[Skyfoot]

Why is it that so many "first" passes are so off the mark? I'd guess that dev forum logins give a hint at their game logins.

This baffles me as well. First, it doesn't present the SSG team in a positive light. Secondly, you're basically using the player base as free testers due to inadequate staffing. I realize it lets them promote the game (if you can actually call it promotion) with no additional cost, but in the end it hurts them more than anything else because it highlights their many shortfalls.


We should have one week of beta testing right before the product goes live. The build that is presented to us should be as near as complete/polished as possible with only minor tweaks here and there needed. Instead, we get an alpha product and what goes to live is in some cases still a beta build.

[Sun-Tzu]

As unhappy as I am with the whole lootbox continuation I would also like to point out that as usual the world designers have really outdone themselves with the design of The Iron Hills.

You can see it all in this video from Andang.



The Dwarven statue (mount rushmore, dwarven style) at the beginning of the video, as well as the Dwarven stronghold, Jarnfast (järn meaning iron), at 3:12 just looks amazing.

While the dwaren Iron Hill armours added on NPC's are not really to my liking, it is still nice to see some new dwarven style armour added. Hopefully there will be more styles added that us as player can wear.

Personally I was hoping already with Erebor for dwarven armour more in this style:

And just look at the helmet that can even have parts added to protect the throat and at least a part of those precious beards from dragons fire.



Oh please give me this, my preciousss.

Yes yes yes to all that!

No no no to loot boxes!

[Thodorin]

...We should have one week of beta testing right before the product goes live. ..

The consequence would be that players complain that they have not been asked to make specific decisions. It was seen at the deferred and then revamped lootbox for the horses. The revised box was not sufficiently presented to the players and caused unnecessary problems / protests.

I think it's good that players can tell their mind about things like the new potions before it's too late for changes. Even if there is no guarantee that the developers implement the requested changes.

[Skyfoot]

The consequence would be that players complain that they have not been asked to make specific decisions. It was seen at the deferred and then revamped lootbox for the horses. The revised box was not sufficiently presented to the players and caused unnecessary problems / protests.

I think it's good that players can tell their mind about things like the new potions before it's too late for changes. Even if there is no guarantee that the developers implement the requested changes.

It is not the job of the player base to test this game. The horse/loot box fiasco shouldn't have happened in the first place so that is a bad example to lead with.

Also, there is no such thing as "too late for changes".

[Thodorin]

It is not the job of the player base to test this game. ...

Yes it is not the job of the players. But I like the chance for influence. For example, consider the planned expiration of golden winter coins, which was prevented by the protests of the beta players.

...Also, there is no such thing as "too late for changes".

Experience shows that there are always dates that SSG tries to comply with, as they partly coordinate the development with DDO or because festivals etc. are imminent. Therefore, there is always a point where it is too late to implement changes before the live date without making shifts that may cause extra work.

[Skyfoot]

Yes it is not the job of the players. But I like the chance for influence. For example, consider the planned expiration of golden winter coins, which was prevented by the protests of the beta players.

Anything that you've provided as an example can be dealt with in week 1. So I'm not understanding what your actual argument is against having a near complete/polished beta one week prior to it going live. I'm not saying there should be no BETA testing.

My argument is simple: The majority of testing and QA should be done internally by the company that runs the game. We shouldn't see an alpha product weeks before just for the sake of free promotion and/or doing the job the staff gets paid to do.

[Knight.]

Essences from Incomparable Coffer of Heroic Essences (500x New Type of Ash)
(The restoration essence could do with having the value rounded up to 10072)

[Celebreneth]

Essences from Incomparable Coffer of Heroic Essences (500x New Type of Ash)
(The restoration essence could do with having the value rounded up to 10072)

Well those new essences give very marginal increases, it's certainly not worth the effort to gear my characters as soon as the update hits. I'll retreat to my cave and hibernate until some teal ones are released in-game. I did the same with the initial release of Mordor, and it saved me a lot of grief by not having to deal with those Empowered Shadow essences.

[Strikerin]

Well those new essences give very marginal increases, it's certainly not worth the effort to gear my characters as soon as the update hits. I'll retreat to my cave and hibernate until some teal ones are released in-game. I did the same with the initial release of Mordor, and it saved me a lot of grief by not having to deal with those Empowered Shadow essences.

Don't get too hasty with that - due to the scaling down of existing essences, the values are ~180% what you will have on patch day - if you are fully northern essence now.

[RaleyD]

I was running a few skirmishes on BR and noted that mark awards are now capped at the level 80 values (i.e., you earn the same mark rewards from levels 20-80 as you do on live but that after that point, you earn the same marks as you do at 80). On live, the marks award levels off at level 100 instead. This reduces you mark awards at levels 100 and higher by about 60%. Is there a reason for this? I didn't see any mention of this in the patch notes.

[Knight.]

Landscape/Quest items seem to give 40 - 50 of the new type of ash (Motes of Enchantment)

Travellers Gear (from teal selection box) when deconstructed gives the old type of ash (Ashes of Enchantment currently mislabelled "Motes of Enchantment")
Heroic Gear (from selection box) when deconstructed gives the new type of ash (Motes of Enchantment), costs 500, decons for 85

To put this into perspective, I've opened 2 Heroic Lootboxes on BR (using Black Steel Keys) and both gave me 240 of the new type of ash (Motes of Enchantment). Not sure what instances drop in terms of new type of ash, but black steel keys from FIs, dailies (old & new) and heroic lootboxes is going to be key route when gearing as things stand. This means end game players will be active in Mordor, Dale and Iron Hills in addition to FIs and new instances assuming black steel keys from dailies remain in those areas.

Bug: The Heroic Light Shields (might & will ones) for some reason give the old type of ash when deconstructed and not the new type.

[Laurelinarien]

My take on this Build so far:

1. Landscape mobs are back to faceroll-level. Encountered no challenges anywhere on the map.. questing with someone else means I get 2 skills off & the other person nothing (maybe a taunt).
2. The Instances I found so far (Utterby & WH) are still too incomplete to form an opinion. I do hope you add some sort of chest (resource like in Mordor ones maybe) or w/e in the end.
3. Landscape scenery is stunning, the quality we're used to, so kudos on that again. I did find a few insta-death falls (the crack in Jarnfast being the most obvious one, but also some cliffs in both maps), and a handful of places with collision issues (of the top of my head, I remember a platform in Glimmerdeep).
4. There is a lot of dismounting to interact with objects that is truly annoying. I hope you change that & let us stay mounted (i.e.: mining the rust-poked nodes for the Jarnfast quest).
5. Dwarf & Dragon lore related deeds: another excellent job, very very interesting to read & listen.
6. Lootboxes: well, been hating them since Mordor so.. that didn't change (especially coz I just have no luck at actually getting any as landscape drop in the live servers). Nevertheless, I won't accuse SSG of making this the main gearing way until they include the instance cluster loot (hopefully in future builds).
7. Ashes/Motes: I do hope this is not intended and was done this way just for testing purposes. I remember clearly SSG promised Ashes were here to stay & would remain useful. You even put a cap on it due to that. Was it a promise only valid for Strongholds?

Specific worry: since our stats are going thru changes (nerfs), the mits bypass & the eternal finesse issue LMs have to suffer is something I hope you look into to have a fair trade-off. Lansdcape elites/signatures haven't resisted my debuffs, and the testing in t2 Abyss didn't seem so different than from live, but I was still using my current gear (and I wasn't overlevelled).

[Celebreneth]

Don't get too hasty with that - due to the scaling down of existing essences, the values are ~180% what you will have on patch day - if you are fully northern essence now.

That may be the case, but even so, why would I bother with purple essences when I know that teal ones are just around the corner? I can cope with the upgrade from teal essences to possibly gold essences, like with the transition from Empowered Abyssal to Northern Stronghold, but purple stats are always too weak for me.

[Kazabooboo]

To put this into perspective, I've opened 2 Heroic Lootboxes on BR (using Black Steel Keys) and both gave me 240 of the new type of ash (Motes of Enchantment). Not sure what instances drop in terms of new type of ash, but black steel keys from FIs, dailies (old & new) and heroic lootboxes is going to be key route when gearing as things stand. This means end game players will be active in Mordor, Dale and Iron Hills in addition to FIs and new instances assuming black steel keys from dailies remain in those areas.

We'd have to wait to form an opinion on that one.
I have good reason to believe the key will change altogether or as you said , black steel keys will become exclusive to U23.

They make a lot of bad desicions , but when it comes to pay to win , they'll do it perfect for them , no worries there.
Allowing us to do Mordor content to get U23 useful currency will certainly never happen.

The reason they've let black steel keys open newest lootboxes on Beta is that they don't stop players on live doing current content or keep buying keys ,
in the hopes of stacking currency for level 120.
They'll change it closer to release.

There's also the shady renaming of ash , which leads me to believe they'll use a different type of ash ( motes ) and the one we have stacked now will be useless for new content.

Either way , it will most likely be similar to Mordor , where doing a set of dailes was gauranteed 120-1.200+ ash from the key , while spending hours in Naerband was ~100 ash.
Or you can just spend 1k+ LP and get thousands in 30 seconds.
Because this is the lootbox ERA featuring indie SSG aka Daybreak.

In the end , everything related to lootbox , through in-game activity or store , will be the best way to gear no matter what ^^
We all know it...

[OldMadeOfLions]

also why did you hurry to make both grey mountains and iron hills and not separate them into 2 different quest packs with different updates? Now we will never see the actual Iron hills area and only a small part.

Who says we're hurrying? I've been working on this stretch of the story for half a year!

We have stories to tell that involve both of these areas - if we didn't we'd be going somewhere else, which means you wouldn't get either of these places at all. As for your worry that we'll never get more of the Iron Hills, if there's more to explore in the area we can expand on it. Tal Bruinen didn't exist at launch, for instance, but when the story went in that direction we knocked down some barriers and the Trollshaws became larger.

MoL

[Macdui]

Who says we're hurrying? I've been working on this stretch of the story for half a year!

We have stories to tell that involve both of these areas - if we didn't we'd be going somewhere else, which means you wouldn't get either of these places at all. As for your worry that we'll never get more of the Iron Hills, if there's more to explore in the area we can expand on it. Tal Bruinen didn't exist at launch, for instance, but when the story went in that direction we knocked down some barriers and the Trollshaws became larger.

MoL

We don't have any problems with the artists and story telling. But as players we have to interact with this world and we have to deal with the nitty gritty. Each little bug and odd decision we can't understand gnaws away and spoils the enjoyment. When devs/engineers work on this interface badly it's obvious to us, seeming not so to SSG.

We don't want caffeine addled choices from the best of you but neither the careless ignorant choices from the worst of you.

AND
I don't want the the commercial side looking at other games and ignoring what they do to THIS game.

Mac

[Thurinuor]

This means end game players will be active in Mordor, Dale and Iron Hills in addition to FIs and new instances assuming black steel keys from dailies remain in those areas.

Good news that "old" content is still worth playing. I like that!

[TheAnticat]

SSG--

I've been playing this game as a lifer since open beta. I'm not someone who posts often but felt compelled today. So take this at face value for what it is--a heartfelt plea"

****************************** ******************
PLEASE address the issue with monetization via the lootboxes.
****************************** ******************

You've responded to the issue of the potions, and even the notion that the Erebor / Iron-Hills zone split was somehow "rushed." That's fine and I hope the potion issue is fixed. But folks are concerned and upset regarding this notion that best-in-slot gear is coming from spending RL $$. Not raiding, not instances, not crafting, which is just contrary to the spirit of the game.

I encourage you to respond to player concerns. Tell us you've changed your mind. Give us a long argument on why it isn't pay-to-win. Even if it is to tell us all to screw off, that lootboxes are here to stay and pay-to-win is how it's going to be (honestly, I think this is the case, based on recent history). At least we'd know. It's the silence that is murderous, because you are leaving us in the dark.

[Decrepify]

SSG--

I've been playing this game as a lifer since open beta. I'm not someone who posts often but felt compelled today. So take this at face value for what it is--a heartfelt plea"

****************************** ******************
PLEASE address the issue with monetization via the lootboxes.
****************************** ******************

You've responded to the issue of the potions, and even the notion that the Erebor / Iron-Hills zone split was somehow "rushed." That's fine and I hope the potion issue is fixed. But folks are concerned and upset regarding this notion that best-in-slot gear is coming from spending RL $$. Not raiding, not instances, not crafting, which is just contrary to the spirit of the game.

I encourage you to respond to player concerns. Tell us you've changed your mind. Give us a long argument on why it isn't pay-to-win. Even if it is to tell us all to screw off, that lootboxes are here to stay and pay-to-win is how it's going to be (honestly, I think this is the case, based on recent history). At least we'd know. It's the silence that is murderous, because you are leaving us in the dark.

+1

Thank you for being reasonable

[Aleziana]

Who says we're hurrying? I've been working on this stretch of the story for half a year!

We have stories to tell that involve both of these areas - if we didn't we'd be going somewhere else, which means you wouldn't get either of these places at all. As for your worry that we'll never get more of the Iron Hills, if there's more to explore in the area we can expand on it. Tal Bruinen didn't exist at launch, for instance, but when the story went in that direction we knocked down some barriers and the Trollshaws became larger.

MoL

OK...but can you plzzzzzzzzzzz change the frills of the iron hills landscape?? plzzz change the colors. This light green look so out of place over the red ground and you are using them everywhere in middle earth like it is the best you have. For the love of the game plz stop using that kind of frills everywhere and use more simple grass and not too bright colors if the landscape isn't for example ROHAN.

[WhiteWolf21x]

Why is it that so many "first" passes are so off the mark? I'd guess that dev forum logins give a hint at their game logins.

Mac

I feel that there is a severe lack of game designers, not only at SSG but across the entire industry. Its why you see so many remakes and poorly made attempts at games and mechanics. Its seems that when money people took over the industry, designers and play testers were the first people to get cut due to "budget concerns". This is also the reason why Indy games tend to do well, since small studios are usually created by designers, not accountants or developers.


As for the beta, I understand the concerns and agree that gear should come from crafting/landscape/dailies and mainly from instances. Seeing as this is beta, I'll hold off on judgement. The patch notes even say that this build doesn't include the entire update.


That being said, I loved what I saw from the landscape. Especially all of the lost dwarf holds in the grey mountains. Is Thikil-Gundu supposed to be Gundabad? If so I thought it was closer to the Misty Mountains, unless I am underestimating the scaling of this zone.

Has anyone noticed a landscape fellowship area ala Limelight Gorge/Lang Rhuven? In my opinion each landscape update should have one of these and Withered Heath would be a great area for it, with drakes and a named dragon to take down with a group.

And Im surprised the Iron Hills doesn't have its own rep. Not that I want to add to the grind, would just like to see some consistency with regards to factions/reputation.

[Wagoo]

Who says we're hurrying? I've been working on this stretch of the story for half a year!

We have stories to tell that involve both of these areas - if we didn't we'd be going somewhere else, which means you wouldn't get either of these places at all. As for your worry that we'll never get more of the Iron Hills, if there's more to explore in the area we can expand on it. Tal Bruinen didn't exist at launch, for instance, but when the story went in that direction we knocked down some barriers and the Trollshaws became larger.

MoL

I was actually unaware that Tal Bruinen was a later addition to an area already developed. Knowing this makes me feel better that eventually, impassable barriers can be pushed back by new tiny additions to what's already there via a map extension. (Sapience's work in Update 22.2 is similar, but his goal was explicitly stated to not make the map larger.)

I'll try to phrase this so that you aren't told to not answer from up high, but since you consider this not the entirety of the Iron Hills but just an aspect of it, would you be willing to explain what parts of the Iron Hills we're specifically getting, and what will be kept in reserve for future content? Or is that something you want to keep hidden?

[OldMadeOfLions]

(Sapience's work in Update 22.2 is similar, but his goal was explicitly stated to not make the map larger.)

Scenario would knock down every impassable everywhere, if we let him. But it's best to do that in a controlled fashion!

...since you consider this not the entirety of the Iron Hills but just an aspect of it, would you be willing to explain what parts of the Iron Hills we're specifically getting...?

I'm happy with the area for U23, and think it's big enough as-is. But there are some specific locations where long-time fans of LOTRO might recognize the sort of tricks we've done all along for seeding future possibilities. We do this a lot.

MoL

[MAWorking]

But there are some specific locations where long-time fans of LOTRO might recognize the sort of tricks we've done all along for seeding future possibilities. We do this a lot.

MoL

You forgot the evil laugh... "MUHAHAHAHAAAA"

[mmdur1]

I have no problem with lootboxes. Frankly, I don't understand the uproar. I think SSG has proven that they will always make it possible to obtain anything from a lootbox through in-game mechanisms (except maybe some cosmetics, which I am fine with). The only time that BiS gear came only from lootbox was the teal shoulders at Mordor launch, but that was (relatively) quickly fixed. The game has to meet its financial goals, and lootboxes help to make that possible without unduly burdening people that choose to avoid them.

People have been saying since Mordor launch that the game is pay to win with lootboxes. I don't understand how that is true at all. There are tons of people on my server (Gladden) that have opened lots of lootboxes but still can't do Abyss T2. And there are lots of people that have opened zero lootboxes who clear the raid regularly. If the game was truly pay-to-win, that wouldn't be possible. I have played games that are truly pay-to-win, and I can assure that LOTRO isn't one of them.

My concern is that with all of this complaining about lootboxes we miss what is the larger issue in my opinion, which is the daily loot locks on instances. Daily loot locks unduly punish people that have no alts or play classes that are not ideal for completing the content, and they discourage people from playing the content. That's the exact opposite of what SSG should want, and it is definitely the opposite of what we as players do want.